date:20130420

Nothing like having a car that thinks it's smarter than you are, unless it's 
having a car that thinks the driver ahead of you is smarter than you are.


1. When I steer around a pothole or a piece of 2x4 with nails in it, the car 
will make sure it goes straight down the center of the lane?
2. If it's raining and driving in the center of the lane puts your tires in the 
deepest water, the car will let you drive in the shallow spots only if the car 
ahead of you drives in the shallow spots?


Mitch.


Rich Thomas wrote:


 DISTRONIC PLUS -- 2014 E-Class -- Mercedes-Benz Vehicle Safety


http://youtu.be/IJmpCJ36e0g



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Re: [MBZ] USPO [was: Re: ML320 EGR]

i get mail all the time from the last person who lived at my address.
 usually from the state for underpayment.  i write on it no longer at this
address and give it back to the post office.



On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com wrote:

 Heh.

 We just got a statement from the wife's 401k manager from a previous
 employer.  It was mailed to our old address in Indiana in August of 2012
 (forwarding ended in May of 2012) and just showed up here last week.  No
 forwarding notice, nothing.  Just the yellow sticker that said no longer
 at this address.

 I know our carrier pretty well.  I'm going to ask her how it ended up here.

 Dan


 On Apr 17, 2013, at 11:21 PM, Craig wrote:

  On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:17:24 -0500 Benz Hogs benz-n-h...@gulseth.net
  wrote:
 
  99% of that year or two will be 2mi away at your local post office
  where they ignore every redelivery request you file.
 
  We just got a Christmas card that was mailed 24 Dec 2012.
 
 
  Craig
 
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[MBZ] 2004 MB E 320 4matic visit to Dealership Service Clinic......found bad Front Axles / Springs...........$5, 308.80 to fix!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2013-04-20 Thread Robert Koziak


Hi Guys,


   I Took my 2004 E320 4matic (77K) to a local dealership that was having a 
Service Clinic for MBCA members in Westchester, New York.  


They found two issues:  


- Left Rear Spring  was cracked the mechanic said he could see the car was 
leaning left and the crack was in the lower section which was not visible to me 
on the lift.  


- Front outer axle boots were leaking and the axles needed replacing.


The estimate for the repairs were $4508.80 to replace the front axles and $800 
for the rear springs! 


The axle boots appeared to have grease around the area but I saw no obvious 
cracks.  I got online and found replacement axles for around $250 each in 
addition to genuine Mercedes Replacement boots for $85 per pair.  Anyone have 
experience replacing the axles or just the boots.  Should only genuine Mercedes 
Axles be used? How bad a job is it?  I am still having no luck finding a repair 
manual.


Any thoughts on the spring replacement?


Lastly I asked him about a malfunction message I receive when I set the 
instrument panel to the correct year, month and day.  The malfunction keeps 
reading  Main Inspection Performed on Time?.  When I set the year back to 
2000 the message disappears (I don't know why that works).   At first they 
never heard of the issue so I set it to the correct day, year and month and the 
malfunction message appeared.   Then another technician said to fix it involves 
programming which takes over an hour because this message is a reminder that a 
New York Inspection is due, the dealerships have capability not independent 
shops.  Anyone have a similar issue?  Does any of this make and sense?



Any comments appreciated.






Thanks in advance.
Bob




 
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Re: [MBZ] BenzpR0n of the day - DISTRONIC PLUS® with Steering Assist

2013-04-20 Thread Chris James



No,  no! Steering assist is only active when you have the Distronic 
cruise activated. But it's an assist onlyit doesn't take full 
control of the wheel, only making it easier to stay in your lane by 
slightly varying the power assist off the center direction of travel. It 
won't prevent you from trying to avoid that 2x4 or rain puddle. This is 
possible now due to the electro-mechanical steering.




On 4/20/2013 11:48 AM, Mitch Haley wrote:

Nothing like having a car that thinks it's smarter than you are, unless
it's having a car that thinks the driver ahead of you is smarter than
you are.

1. When I steer around a pothole or a piece of 2x4 with nails in it, the
car will make sure it goes straight down the center of the lane?
2. If it's raining and driving in the center of the lane puts your tires
in the deepest water, the car will let you drive in the shallow spots
only if the car ahead of you drives in the shallow spots?

Mitch.



--
Chris J.

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[MBZ] Oil cooler lines

2013-04-20 Thread Tim Crone

I took off the oil cooler lines for my 77 300D.  It looks like some threads
stripped, there are probably enough at the bottom to get the oil cooler
back together.  There is a fix listed on peachparts that involves tapping
threads for new connectors, has anyone done that?

Also, the lower hose (old style) is NLA.  It has a nubby end, the
recommended local hydraulic guy says he can't do it because of how short
the end is.  BabyQ is of course out today, his site shows it NLA also.

So... Is there some kind of retrofit?  Any ideas?  I'd hate to kill the car
over something so trivial.

Thanks,
Tim
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Re: [MBZ] Glue for Instrument Cluster Faceplate

2013-04-20 Thread Tim Crone

Smart.  I still have a gluey thumb print on my 300D's mirror from where I
touched it.

I think this thread has been punishing for everyone.  Y'all drive safe now!

Best,
-Tim
On Apr 20, 2013 6:50 AM, Jon Agne jonag...@gwi.net wrote:

 Not going to touch that one :-)


 BUT, I did opt for repair as I had to have the car ready in the morning
 for NYC trip.


 On Apr 19, 2013, at 8:48 PM, Max Dillon wrote:

  Did you thread the needle, and effect the conservative goal of repair
 instead of replace via liberal use of glue?
 
  --
  Max Dillon
  Charleston SC
  '95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20
 
  Jon Agne jonag...@gwi.net wrote:
 
  I ended up using Permatex super glue gel.  Worked great.  We'll see how
  it holds up.
 
 
  On Apr 19, 2013, at 3:21 PM, Jon Agne wrote:
 
  Whilst replacing my speedo cable today, I managed to pull off the
  front plastic faceplate with the 'Mercedes specila pulling tool' which
  I borrowed.  No cracks or breaks.
 
  What type of glue would you use to replace it???
 
  Jon
 
  '85 300D
 
 
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Re: [MBZ] 2004 MB E 320 4matic visit to Dealership Service Clinic......found bad Front Axles / Springs...........$5, 308.80 to fix!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not sure about a car this new, but in general, (For the cars from 86 
through ~2000) the OE axles are what you want.


If you can't see cracks in the boots, I would not worry about them. 
It is normal to have some weeping of the grease through the boot 
ends.  If the boots are cracked or near cracking, new boots can be 
put on.  I would run the original axles until they are noisy or 
broken.


As for the spring, it is not a terribly difficult DIY repair. 
Replace both rear springs at the same time.  Used Springs should be 
available via car-part.com ~100/pair or less.   New through Q jr. may 
not be much more than that.





Hi Guys,


   I Took my 2004 E320 4matic (77K) to a local dealership that 
was having a Service Clinic for MBCA members in Westchester, New 
York. 



They found two issues: 



- Left Rear Spring  was cracked the mechanic said he could see the 
car was leaning left and the crack was in the lower section which 
was not visible to me on the lift. 



- Front outer axle boots were leaking and the axles needed replacing.


The estimate for the repairs were $4508.80 to replace the front 
axles and $800 for the rear springs!



The axle boots appeared to have grease around the area but I saw no 
obvious cracks.  I got online and found replacement axles for around 
$250 each in addition to genuine Mercedes Replacement boots for $85 
per pair.  Anyone have experience replacing the axles or just the 
boots.  Should only genuine Mercedes Axles be used? How bad a job is 
it?  I am still having no luck finding a repair manual.



Any thoughts on the spring replacement?


Lastly I asked him about a malfunction message I receive when I set 
the instrument panel to the correct year, month and day.  The 
malfunction keeps reading  Main Inspection Performed on Time?. 
When I set the year back to 2000 the message disappears (I don't 
know why that works).   At first they never heard of the issue so I 
set it to the correct day, year and month and the malfunction 
message appeared.   Then another technician said to fix it involves 
programming which takes over an hour because this message is a 
reminder that a New York Inspection is due, the dealerships have 
capability not independent shops.  Anyone have a similar issue? 
Does any of this make and sense?




Any comments appreciated.






Thanks in advance.
Bob





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Re: [MBZ] 2004 MB E 320 4matic visit to Dealership......$5, 308.80 to fix!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2013-04-20 Thread Chris James



I'd replace both rear springs ASAP, but can't say on the axles/axel 
boots, obviously you don't want to let things go. Certainly a good 
independent could get things sorted out for a little less? But please 
make sure if you go that route, that only MB or quality OEM parts are used.


I think I mentioned before that the dealer ( or an indi with Star 
Diagnostic) has to reset your malfunction message, it's a sub-menu you 
can't access from the cluster. If your not having other work done, plan 
for up to an hours labor charge at the dealer (not that it takes that 
long)



On 4/20/2013 12:54 PM, Robert Koziak wrote:

- Left Rear Spring  was cracked the mechanic said he could see the
car was leaning left and the crack was in the lower section which was
not visible to me on the lift.


- Front outer axle boots were leaking and the axles needed
replacing.

Lastly I asked him about a malfunction message



--
Chris J.

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Re: [MBZ] Oil cooler lines

2013-04-20 Thread Max Dillon

If the hose is no longer available, maybe you need to replace oil cooler with 
new and then new hose for later models will fit?

Have you checked the EPC?

-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20

Tim Crone bb...@crone.us wrote:

I took off the oil cooler lines for my 77 300D.  It looks like some
threads
stripped, there are probably enough at the bottom to get the oil cooler
back together.  There is a fix listed on peachparts that involves
tapping
threads for new connectors, has anyone done that?

Also, the lower hose (old style) is NLA.  It has a nubby end, the
recommended local hydraulic guy says he can't do it because of how
short
the end is.  BabyQ is of course out today, his site shows it NLA also.

So... Is there some kind of retrofit?  Any ideas?  I'd hate to kill the
car
over something so trivial.

Thanks,
Tim
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Re: [MBZ] BenzpR0n of the day - DISTRONIC PLUS® with Steering Assist


Chris James wrote:


No,  no! Steering assist is only active when you have the Distronic 
cruise activated. But it's an assist onlyit doesn't take full 
control of the wheel, only making it easier to stay in your lane by 
slightly varying the power assist off the center direction of travel. It 
won't prevent you from trying to avoid that 2x4 or rain puddle.


So if I move the wheel just far enough to miss the pothole, it won't guide me 
into the pothole?


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] 2004 MB E 320 4matic visit to Dealership......$5, 308.80 to fix!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Chris James wrote:

I think I mentioned before that the dealer ( or an indi with Star 
Diagnostic) has to reset your malfunction message, it's a sub-menu you 
can't access from the cluster. If your not having other work done, plan 
for up to an hours labor charge at the dealer (not that it takes that 
long)


Sounds about right, assuming a MBCA scheduled maintenance went by without a 
reset. I'm glad my 210's message center is user-resettable.


The car knows it's time for the state of New York's next inspection does not 
sound about right.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] 2004 MB E 320 4matic visit to Dealership......$5, 308.80 to fix!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Mitch Haley wrote:
Sounds about right, assuming a MBCA scheduled maintenance went by 
without a reset. I'm glad my 210's message center is user-resettable.


I meant to say MBUSA, of course.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Down in Flames!


I echo Max's view.  This was indeed an interesting read.

The main reason the pro-gun community opposes National registration is fear
of government (including our own).  I'm certain that some on this list
believe that fear of our own government is simply nuts, paranoia.  I'm just
as sure many Weimar Germans felt that way too; after all, Germany was the
most civilized country on the planet.

I encountered this little clip that may provide some historical perspective
and food for thought:
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=0sujnvIV4g4
I haven't audited the numbers but, from memory, they are at least close.

Scott


-Original Message-
From: Of Max Dillon


Thanks for sharing that link, always enjoyable to read a well-reasoned and
researched explanation of any part of our constitution.

-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20

Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote:


The second amendment
Text of the 2nd Amendment
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free 
State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be 
infringed.

It relates to the first principles as explained here by Edward Erler:
http://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis/archive/issue.asp?year=2013month=03

OZ and canyada don't have our history or constitution.
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Re: [MBZ] OT I was a victim of terroristic threats in Boston area


Yup.  The American Revolution started with British attempts to disarm
American militia at Concord and Lexington:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Lexington_and_Concord

The Americans in Boston, proper, had already been disarmed.

My, how things have changed in that pert of the country.
 

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Larry T
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 8:15 AM
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT I was a victim of terroristic threats in Boston area

And that was what happened when someone tried to disarm early America ;-)

LarryT
91 300D

On 4/16/2013 9:43 AM, Rich Thomas wrote:
 One morning about this very date in 1979 I was jarred from my sleep at 
 approximately 5:30-6AM by a series of gunshots outside on the street 
 and very loud drumming (?!).  I lived in Arlington Heights, MA just 
 one house off Mass Ave, on the third floor of a large house.  I got up 
 and looked out my window and saw four men dressed in white pants and 
 long red jackets carrying assault rifles and firing them randomly.  
 They were also carrying large-capacity powder horns and bags of 
 bullets for their assault rifles.  One of the four had a large drum 
 that he was making a great deal of noise on.

 As I observed the 4 men conducting their terroristic activities, they 
 proceeded on down the street towards Boston.  No law enforcement was 
 in sight, nothing being done about these terrorists running rampant in 
 the community.

 I went to work and mentioned this to colleagues, who explained that it 
 was Patriots Day, and these were British troops recreators who were 
 fleeing the patriots who had kicked their butts just up the road on 
 Lexington Green, on their way to Boston while being chased and 
 harassed by the patriots (who were not part of the events that morning 
 that I could see).  I later discovered they were hiding down the road 
 at the park to ambush the gentlemen in red who were disturbing the 
 peace of my sleep.  (I was all for that!).

 I was unfamiliar with this holiday (at least for all the gummint 
 workers) but studied it more and learned about the events of that day, 
 retraced the paths and places up to the rude bridge, saw where fellow 
 Americans had died, etc.

 --R

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Re: [MBZ] Topsider Oil removal

2013-04-20 Thread Alex Chamberlain



 On Apr 15, 2013, at 12:26 PM, LarryT wrote:


 Are there any brands which have taken over the top spot as the best oil
 suction unit?


I've been using this one for about eight or nine years and been completely
satisfied with it.  It came with a spare parts list and phone number to
call, which I always think is a good sign that the company expects you to
keep it a while, but hasn't needed any repair yet.

http://www.go2marine.com/product/100565F/suckup-oil-extractor-with-probes.html

Alex
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Re: [MBZ] One for Wilton


I think you are making a mistake in assuming our current National leadership
has goals and priorities similar to yours.

Scott

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Max
Dillon
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 8:11 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] One for Wilton

Impressive.

The half-life of knowledge is about 30 days.  Sequester reductions in
readiness would first affect non-essential things (federal employees like
myself and Andrew) and among the last would be vital national defense assets
like our nuclear triad.  I'll be on a long furlough or fired before there is
even a shortage of toilet paper on a ballistic missile submarine.

-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20

clay redgh...@comcast.net wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ7niLYSVFo

clay 


1974 450sl -  Frosch - Two tone green
1972 220D - Gump - She is green, simple and ran
1995 E300D - Cleo - Used by the Queen of Denial
POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers







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Re: [MBZ] repair climate control unit

2013-04-20 Thread ernest breakfield


Rick (et al),

i just wanted to report back on this issue with my '85 300D; with 
the help of the instructions below i was able to get the ACC unit out of 
the car, and disassemble the unit (without breaking anything!). while no 
cracks were visible to the naked eye, under the microscope in a clients 
lab there cracks in the solder joints exactly where indicated in the link.
a skillful tech claimed it looked like there hadn't been enough 
solder used at manufacture, and was able to re-solder all the joints in 
a more suitable fashion. (we also tested and verified all the relays at 
the same time.)


i managed to reassemble and reinstall the unit (without breaking 
anything!), and the first few days of testing seem to indicate that it's 
working perfectly.


thanks to all who contributed on this; now that temps are ranging 
from low 40s to over 80, it's much appreciated to have a working Climate 
Control!



cheers!
e



On 07/Mar/13 17:02, Rick Hawkins Java wrote:

here's a link
http://w123maintenance.blogspot.com/2007/10/automatic-climate-control-unit-repair.html 




thanks,

xx rick
Rick Hawkins

www.javaphoto.com
www.javacycles.com
LETTERPRESSES FOR SALE
www.ricktheprinter.com
www.letterpressmachinery.com
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Re: [MBZ] Solar Tree for charging EVs

The proliferation of computers and mobile devices increases power
consumption.  People heating 6000-7000+ sq ft homes aren't exact
environmentally friendly.


On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 10:37 AM, Benz Hogs benz-n-h...@gulseth.net wrote:

 Yup.  Until that lifestyle is changed, efficiency (or the lack thereof) of
 energy usage cannot be truly fixed.


 Luther   KB5QHUForest Park, IL
 '98 ML320 Max (164,xxx mi)

 On 4/18/2013 9:30 PM, OK Don wrote:

 Ah ha! Now you've identified the problem - highest traffic areas and
 drive to a major downtown!

 OKDon, who doesn't live in ANY town anymore!


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Re: [MBZ] repair climate control unit


Rick (et al),

i just wanted to report back on this issue with my '85 300D; 
with the help of the instructions below i was able to get the ACC 
unit out of the car, and disassemble the unit (without breaking 
anything!). while no cracks were visible to the naked eye, under the 
microscope in a clients lab there cracks in the solder joints 
exactly where indicated in the link.
a skillful tech claimed it looked like there hadn't been enough 
solder used at manufacture, and was able to re-solder all the joints 
in a more suitable fashion. (we also tested and verified all the 
relays at the same time.)


i managed to reassemble and reinstall the unit (without breaking 
anything!), and the first few days of testing seem to indicate that 
it's working perfectly.


thanks to all who contributed on this; now that temps are 
ranging from low 40s to over 80, it's much appreciated to have a 
working Climate Control!


cheers!
e


As Wilton will say,  ATTABOY

Nice to hear the instructions work.

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Re: [MBZ] OT I was a victim of terroristic threats in Boston area


Yup.  The American Revolution started with British attempts to disarm
American militia at Concord and Lexington:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Lexington_and_Concord

The Americans in Boston, proper, had already been disarmed.

My, how things have changed in that pert of the country.




Hear Here!   Great points every citizen should know!
Good video at the link too.

Boston was disarmed in 1775.  Isn't Boston disarmed now?  Maybe some 
things never change.   I wonder though, how many real Americans are 
in Lexington and Concord who would put up a fight when the goobermnt 
came to take their weapons.



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Re: [MBZ] Topsider Oil removal


Alex Chamberlain wrote:


I've been using this one for about eight or nine years and been completely
satisfied with it.  It came with a spare parts list and phone number to
call, which I always think is a good sign that the company expects you to
keep it a while, but hasn't needed any repair yet.

http://www.go2marine.com/product/100565F/suckup-oil-extractor-with-probes.html

Alex


Suckup looks a bit like a weed sprayer with the pump valves installed backward 
so it evacuates when you work the pump.


Hmm, that gives me an idea, sort of like the homemade speedi-bleed

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] repair climate control unit

2013-04-20 Thread WILTON

ATTABOY!

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: ernest breakfield erne...@backyardengineering.org

To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] repair climate control unit

Rick (et al),

i just wanted to report back on this issue with my '85 300D; with the 
help of the instructions below i was able to get the ACC unit out of the 
car, and disassemble the unit (without breaking anything!). while no 
cracks were visible to the naked eye, under the microscope in a clients 
lab there cracks in the solder joints exactly where indicated in the link.
a skillful tech claimed it looked like there hadn't been enough solder 
used at manufacture, and was able to re-solder all the joints in a more 
suitable fashion. (we also tested and verified all the relays at the same 
time.)

i managed to reassemble and reinstall the unit (without breaking 
anything!), and the first few days of testing seem to indicate that it's 
working perfectly.

thanks to all who contributed on this; now that temps are ranging from 
low 40s to over 80, it's much appreciated to have a working Climate 
Control!

cheers!
e

On 07/Mar/13 17:02, Rick Hawkins Java wrote:

here's a link
http://w123maintenance.blogspot.com/2007/10/automatic-climate-control-unit-repair.html

thanks,

xx rick
Rick Hawkins

www.javaphoto.com
www.javacycles.com
LETTERPRESSES FOR SALE
www.ricktheprinter.com
www.letterpressmachinery.com
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Re: [MBZ] Topsider Oil removal

2013-04-20 Thread G Mann

Why all the fuss? I've been using a cheap [$25 off the internet] fuel pump
for so long I can't remember exactly when I got it. A trip to the hardware
store for barb fittings , fuel hose,[in and out] a piece of semi-rigid
nylon tubing with a 30 degree angle cut on the bottom end [so it doesn't
suck flat to the bottom of the oil pan] and a scrap [almost] plastic 5
gallon fuel jerry can.

I insert the suck tube down the dip stick hole, put the pump output tube in
the 5 gal jerry can, hook the fuel pump up to the battery [I did wire in an
on/off switch just for convenience, and alligator clips to the ends of the
wires], flip the switch on and let the pump do the work.

I started using this rig for a generator which was mounted in a no access
position, found it was so handy I now use it for other oil changes. The
pump does 3 gallons of oil in 15 minutes and the battery has plenty of
reserve to handle that. [Never tried it in freezing cold with frozen oil..
so, warm the engine, I suppose]

In fact, that works so well, I just bought another one and use it to bleed
brakes. Use clear poly hose, hook pump to bleed screw, open bleed screw,
open master cylinder cap, turn on pump and suck the old dead brake fluid
out of the master cylinder and line. A soft drink 2 liter bottle works for
receptacle for the old fluid, Just pump it right in.

Once the master cylinder is empty, [and clean to your satisfaction] reverse
the direction of the pump [put the intake side hose in a fresh bottle of
clean fluid and hook the output side hose to the brake bleed nipple, open
the nipple, turn on the pump and push clean brake fluid from the bottom up
to the master cylinder. [leave the cap lightly on in case it squirts out
{some do that} ] Once you have enough fluid in the master cylinder to
cover the bottom, close the bleed screw and move to the next wheel. Repeat
as necessary.

The clear poly hose lets you see fluid being moved into the system. Pushing
fluid from the bottom lets the trapped air rise [which it naturally wants
to do]. You may find this to be the most simple one man brake bleed
system you ever used.

Once you have visually added a bit of fluid from each wheel [bottom up] top
off the master cylinder and try the brakes.. you should have full peddle
pressure within a couple strokes.

So far, it has worked every time for cars, and trucks. I'm sure some
engineer somewhere is right now designing a system that defeats mine.. but
not yet.

HTH,

Grant...
AZ

On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote:

Alex Chamberlain wrote:

I've been using this one for about eight or nine years and been completely
satisfied with it. It came with a spare parts list and phone number to
call, which I always think is a good sign that the company expects you to
keep it a while, but hasn't needed any repair yet.

http://www.go2marine.com/**product/100565F/suckup-oil-**
extractor-with-probes.htmlhttp://www.go2marine.com/product/100565F/suckup-oil-extractor-with-probes.html

Alex

Suckup looks a bit like a weed sprayer with the pump valves installed
backward so it evacuates when you work the pump.

Hmm, that gives me an idea, sort of like the homemade speedi-bleed

Mitch.

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[MBZ] odo sticking

2013-04-20 Thread ernest breakfield


hi all!

i noticed last week that the odometer and trip meter seemed to 
'stick' for a few miles, while the speedo seemed to behave normally. is 
this the typical symptom of the gears slipping on their shaft, or 
something else?


any tips on how to narrow it down to what needs attention, or any 
instructions on how i might approach addressing this myself?



cheers!
e


'85 300D
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[MBZ] lower dash panel backlights not working?

2013-04-20 Thread ernest breakfield


hi again all!

just before i took my ACC unit out to attempt its repair, i noticed 
that the switches on the center console had recently failed lighting up.

back-lights for the stereo and the instrument panel all work.

i've done a visual inspection of all the fuses and they all look 
fine, though i confess that from the descriptions on the inside of the 
fuse panel cover i can't be sure which (if any) might be related to this 
issue.


buoyed by my recent apparent success with the ACC unit, i thought i 
should put this one to the list too.

does anyone have any tips, hints, or clues to share on this issue?


cheers!
e

'85 300D

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Re: [MBZ] lower dash panel backlights not working?

2013-04-20 Thread OK Don

IIRC, which is not likely, the switches are illuminated by a fiber optic
pipe that get's light from the back of the instrument cluster. I always
knocked them out, then had to go back and plug them in again.


On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 8:31 PM, ernest breakfield 
erne...@backyardengineering.org wrote:

 hi again all!

 just before i took my ACC unit out to attempt its repair, i noticed
 that the switches on the center console had recently failed lighting up.
 back-lights for the stereo and the instrument panel all work.

 i've done a visual inspection of all the fuses and they all look fine,
 though i confess that from the descriptions on the inside of the fuse panel
 cover i can't be sure which (if any) might be related to this issue.

 buoyed by my recent apparent success with the ACC unit, i thought i
 should put this one to the list too.
 does anyone have any tips, hints, or clues to share on this issue?


 cheers!
 e

 '85 300D

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-- 
OK Don
2013 F150
2012 Passat TDI DSG
1957 C182A
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Re: [MBZ] odo sticking

Time to rebuild the odo.  You'll have to take it apart to determine 
if the little gear is slipping on the shaft, or disintegrated.  On 87 
up, it is disintegration, on older cars, slipping.  I'm not sure 
where 1985 falls.


If slipping, take a file and rough up the shaft and side of the gear, 
and epoxy or use the thick superglue to glue the gear to the shaft.






hi all!

i noticed last week that the odometer and trip meter seemed to 
'stick' for a few miles, while the speedo seemed to behave normally. 
is this the typical symptom of the gears slipping on their shaft, or 
something else?


any tips on how to narrow it down to what needs attention, or 
any instructions on how i might approach addressing this myself?



cheers!
e

'85 300D


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Re: [MBZ] OT I was a victim of terroristic threats in Boston area


Yup.  The American Revolution started with British attempts to disarm
American militia at Concord and Lexington:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Lexington_and_Concord

The Americans in Boston, proper, had already been disarmed.

My, how things have changed in that pert of the country.



George Washington's reaction about the gummit's attempt to disarm the citizens:

George Washington received the news at Mount Vernon and wrote to a 
friend, the once-happy and peaceful plains of America are either to 
be drenched in blood or inhabited by slaves. Sad alternative! But can 
a virtuous man hesitate in his choice?[104] A group of hunters on 
the frontier named their campsite Lexington when they heard news of 
the battle in June. It eventually became the city of Lexington, 
Kentucky.[105]



Those who don't learn History are doomed to repeat it!Amen
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Down in Flames!





The main reason the pro-gun community opposes National registration is fear
of government (including our own).  I'm certain that some on this list
believe that fear of our own government is simply nuts, paranoia.  I'm just
as sure many Weimar Germans felt that way too; after all, Germany was the
most civilized country on the planet.

I encountered this little clip that may provide some historical perspective
and food for thought:
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=0sujnvIV4g4
I haven't audited the numbers but, from memory, they are at least close.

Scott


As a kid, I could never understand how the very intelligent, hard 
working and enterprising population of Germany could have been taken 
over by a madman, and most of the population became devout followers 
or went along for the ride.


Over time, I found the answers.

THE NATIONAL SOCIALIST PARTY ROSE BY:
Economic collapse
unbelievable inflation
Financial depression
Mental depression
Nationalization of healthcare
A leader who offered a path out of the mess
a leader with charisma
a leader who instilled pride in the people
A leader with a vision
disarmament of the population
brutal police action against dissenters and unworthy and enemies
genocide against the unworthy

Now lets look at the good ol USA:

THE PROGRESSIVE (MARXIST/SOCIALIST) PARTY ROSE BY:
Taking over the D party, churches and schools, YWCA from within
An argument can be made that they took over the R party from within 
too, (gramnesty, McLame, Willard Too-ME? Marco, and others

Economic collapse  HEADED THERE, INDUCED BY THE
unbelievable inflation  HEADED THERE
Financial depression   BEEN THERE, HEADED BACK
Mental depression   PART WAY THERE
Nationalization of healthcare  YEP, CRAMMED DOWN THROAT, AGAINST THE 
CONSTITUTION AND THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.
A leader who offered a path out of the mess   A LACKING LEADER; HOPE 
AND CHANGE, BUT NO PATH

a leader with charisma   YEP
a leader who instilled pride in the people   NOPE
A leader with a vision   YEP, MARXISM, SUBJUGATION OF THE PEOPLE
disarmament of the population   HE KEEPS TRYING
brutal police action against dissenters and unworthy and enemies 
ALREADY UNDERWAY
genocide against the unworthy WE ARE HEADED THERE IF WE DON'T 
GET THE GOOBERMNT UNDER CONTROL!   (and uphold the Constitution)


The similarities between the rise of 'Dolfie and da'bummer are eerie.


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Re: [MBZ] OT: shot Down in Flames gun propaganda!

2013-04-20 Thread Hendrik and fay

So the basis of that dribble is that if the citizens of Germany, Russia, 
Japan, etc had been armed that there would not have been as many deaths 
or the dictatorships would not have happened?

I don't think so.
The pro gun mob always wheel out this sort of thing because it is easy 
to understand by the average gun owner, however the reality is that you 
can't fight a modern army with the stuff you buy at walmart. Sure back 
in the day when the most sophisticated military hardware was rifles and 
cannons, you could fight an army but these days airpower is the key to 
victory and I did not see any fighter jets or attack helicopters in the 
gun shops. Perhaps Wilton has a B-52 stashed away in the back yard, just 
in case or a few might have build a mini drone to spy on the neighbours 
but I really can't see that doing much.
However I am happy enough for the gun crowd to have their little 
delusions if it makes them feel happy and secure.

No point in alarming people.

Hendrik


On 21/04/13 05:32, Scott Ritchey wrote:

I echo Max's view.  This was indeed an interesting read.

The main reason the pro-gun community opposes National registration is fear
of government (including our own).  I'm certain that some on this list
believe that fear of our own government is simply nuts, paranoia.  I'm just
as sure many Weimar Germans felt that way too; after all, Germany was the
most civilized country on the planet.

I encountered this little clip that may provide some historical perspective
and food for thought:
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=0sujnvIV4g4
I haven't audited the numbers but, from memory, they are at least close.

Scott


-Original Message-
From: Of Max Dillon


Thanks for sharing that link, always enjoyable to read a well-reasoned and
researched explanation of any part of our constitution.




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Re: [MBZ] OT: shot Down in Flames gun propaganda!

It would probably be best if the 2nd amendment was expanded to include any
weapon the U.S. military has or could use. But then again, the law is
supposed to be U.S. troops cannot be deployed on U.S. land.

Obviously the problem is pressure cookers, so we'll need to have national
registration for those.

On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Hendrik and fay heni...@gmail.com wrote:

So the basis of that dribble is that if the citizens of Germany, Russia,
Japan, etc had been armed that there would not have been as many deaths or
the dictatorships would not have happened?
I don't think so.
The pro gun mob always wheel out this sort of thing because it is easy to
understand by the average gun owner, however the reality is that you can't
fight a modern army with the stuff you buy at walmart. Sure back in the day
when the most sophisticated military hardware was rifles and cannons, you
could fight an army but these days airpower is the key to victory and I did
not see any fighter jets or attack helicopters in the gun shops. Perhaps
Wilton has a B-52 stashed away in the back yard, just in case or a few
might have build a mini drone to spy on the neighbours but I really can't
see that doing much.
However I am happy enough for the gun crowd to have their little delusions
if it makes them feel happy and secure.
No point in alarming people.

Hendrik

On 21/04/13 05:32, Scott Ritchey wrote:

I echo Max's view. This was indeed an interesting read.

The main reason the pro-gun community opposes National registration is
fear
of government (including our own). I'm certain that some on this list
believe that fear of our own government is simply nuts, paranoia. I'm
just
as sure many Weimar Germans felt that way too; after all, Germany was the
most civilized country on the planet.

I encountered this little clip that may provide some historical
perspective
and food for thought:
http://www.youtube.com/watch_**popup?v=0sujnvIV4g4http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=0sujnvIV4g4
I haven't audited the numbers but, from memory, they are at least close.

Scott

-Original Message-
From: Of Max Dillon

Thanks for sharing that link, always enjoyable to read a well-reasoned and
researched explanation of any part of our constitution.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: shot Down in Flames gun propaganda!


Hendrik, 

Maybe you should explain this to the Taliban so they can stop wasting their
resources on an unwinnable fight.

By the way, do you dispute the assertion that governments are the greatest
cause of unnatural death?

Scott

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Hendrik
and fay
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 11:06 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: shot Down in Flames gun propaganda!

So the basis of that dribble is that if the citizens of Germany, Russia, 
Japan, etc had been armed that there would not have been as many deaths 
or the dictatorships would not have happened?
I don't think so.
The pro gun mob always wheel out this sort of thing because it is easy 
to understand by the average gun owner, however the reality is that you 
can't fight a modern army with the stuff you buy at walmart. Sure back 
in the day when the most sophisticated military hardware was rifles and 
cannons, you could fight an army but these days airpower is the key to 
victory and I did not see any fighter jets or attack helicopters in the 
gun shops. Perhaps Wilton has a B-52 stashed away in the back yard, just 
in case or a few might have build a mini drone to spy on the neighbours 
but I really can't see that doing much.
However I am happy enough for the gun crowd to have their little 
delusions if it makes them feel happy and secure.
No point in alarming people.

Hendrik


On 21/04/13 05:32, Scott Ritchey wrote:
 I echo Max's view.  This was indeed an interesting read.

 The main reason the pro-gun community opposes National registration is
fear
 of government (including our own).  I'm certain that some on this list
 believe that fear of our own government is simply nuts, paranoia.  I'm
just
 as sure many Weimar Germans felt that way too; after all, Germany was the
 most civilized country on the planet.

 I encountered this little clip that may provide some historical
perspective
 and food for thought:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=0sujnvIV4g4
 I haven't audited the numbers but, from memory, they are at least close.

 Scott


 -Original Message-
 From: Of Max Dillon


 Thanks for sharing that link, always enjoyable to read a well-reasoned and
 researched explanation of any part of our constitution.



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Re: [MBZ] odo sticking

2013-04-20 Thread Peter Frederick

A tiny amount of red locktite between the shaft and gear works better  
than scratching or roughing it, and you don't have to take the thing  
apart to do it either, just work the shaft back and forth a bit.


Also, NEVER reset the trip odometer with the car in motion.  Doing so  
briefly locks the gear train, and worsens the slippage.  Pushbutton  
type is worse that the turn until they all read zero type.


W126 has an electronic odometer and the problem is broken plastic  
gears.  W123 and W124 (and probably W201) have mechanical odometers  
and the problem is the zinc gear slipping.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] OT: shot Down in Flames gun propaganda!


It would probably be best if the 2nd amendment was expanded to include any
weapon the U.S. military has or could use. But then again, the law is
supposed to be U.S. troops cannot be deployed on U.S. land.

Obviously the problem is pressure cookers, so we'll need to have national
registration for those.



Sir, do you have a permit to buy this bearing?  Do you have a permit 
to carry concealed  bearings?  if not, you can't buy this bearing for 
your bicycle.


Bicycles, but be controlled because they contain many bearings. 
Bearings kill people!


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Down in Flames!


Scary parallel.  But here's one reason for hope: US military officers take
their oath more seriously than most of our elected representatives (at least
they did in my day).  Back then, I bought a stack of pocket-size
Constitution booklets and gave one to the promotee every time I administered
the oath.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
Dieselhead
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 10:49 PM

The main reason the pro-gun community opposes National registration is fear
of government (including our own).  I'm certain that some on this list
believe that fear of our own government is simply nuts, paranoia.  I'm just
as sure many Weimar Germans felt that way too; after all, Germany was the
most civilized country on the planet.

I encountered this little clip that may provide some historical perspective
and food for thought:
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=0sujnvIV4g4
I haven't audited the numbers but, from memory, they are at least close.

Scott

As a kid, I could never understand how the very intelligent, hard 
working and enterprising population of Germany could have been taken 
over by a madman, and most of the population became devout followers 
or went along for the ride.

Over time, I found the answers.

THE NATIONAL SOCIALIST PARTY ROSE BY:
Economic collapse
unbelievable inflation
Financial depression
Mental depression
Nationalization of healthcare
A leader who offered a path out of the mess
a leader with charisma
a leader who instilled pride in the people
A leader with a vision
disarmament of the population
brutal police action against dissenters and unworthy and enemies
genocide against the unworthy

Now lets look at the good ol USA:

THE PROGRESSIVE (MARXIST/SOCIALIST) PARTY ROSE BY:
Taking over the D party, churches and schools, YWCA from within
An argument can be made that they took over the R party from within 
too, (gramnesty, McLame, Willard Too-ME? Marco, and others
Economic collapse  HEADED THERE, INDUCED BY THE
unbelievable inflation  HEADED THERE
Financial depression   BEEN THERE, HEADED BACK
Mental depression   PART WAY THERE
Nationalization of healthcare  YEP, CRAMMED DOWN THROAT, AGAINST THE 
CONSTITUTION AND THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.
A leader who offered a path out of the mess   A LACKING LEADER; HOPE 
AND CHANGE, BUT NO PATH
a leader with charisma   YEP
a leader who instilled pride in the people   NOPE
A leader with a vision   YEP, MARXISM, SUBJUGATION OF THE PEOPLE
disarmament of the population   HE KEEPS TRYING
brutal police action against dissenters and unworthy and enemies 
ALREADY UNDERWAY
genocide against the unworthy WE ARE HEADED THERE IF WE DON'T 
GET THE GOOBERMNT UNDER CONTROL!   (and uphold the Constitution)

The similarities between the rise of 'Dolfie and da'bummer are eerie.


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Re: [MBZ] OT: shot Down in Flames gun propaganda!


It would probably be best if the 2nd amendment was expanded to include any
weapon the U.S. military has or could use. But then again, the law is
supposed to be U.S. troops cannot be deployed on U.S. land.


Ah!  BUT the Constitution does not say the Homely land  insecurity 
can't be deployed against the citizens.


Nor does the Constitution say the Ialien Natural ization service 
can't be deployed against the citizens.


Nor does the Constitution say the ATF   can't be deployed against the citizens.

Does this give any clues about the real intent of our homegrown 
National Socia lists?


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Re: [MBZ] odo sticking




W126 has an electronic odometer and the problem is broken plastic 
gears.  W123 and W124 (and probably W201) have mechanical odometers 
and the problem is the zinc gear slipping.


Peter


I was thinking the 123 had the glue it up type rather than the 
disintegrating gears.  But being an 85, i was not sure.  A lot of 126 
and 124 bits were already in the 1985 123s.  I had a PRCA 85 briefly, 
but never learned much about it.


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Re: [MBZ] OT: shot Down in Flames gun propaganda!

ATF should be a convenience store not a government agency. :-)

The only folks who like the DHS have irrational fears or work for the
government.

Anti-gunners are just that - they have irrational fears against guns but
see no problems with rental trucks, fertilizer, diesel fuel, pressure
cookers, wheel bearings, automobiles, or airplanes which seem to kill
plenty of people...

On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 9:32 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote:

Ah! BUT the Constitution does not say the Homely land insecurity can't
be deployed against the citizens.

Nor does the Constitution say the Ialien Natural ization service can't be
deployed against the citizens.

Nor does the Constitution say the ATF can't be deployed against the
citizens.

Does this give any clues about the real intent of our homegrown National
Socia lists?

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Re: [MBZ] odo sticking

2013-04-20 Thread Peter Frederick

Instrument cluster didn't change at all during the W123 run other than  
the speedo being specific for the rear end ratio.


Going to an electronic speedo/odo is a pretty big change, nobody is  
going to do that on the last year of a model.


Emission controls are a different story, of course, and Cali cars are  
different than 49 state cars for several years there, especially 1985.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Down in Flames!


Scott Sez:

Scary parallel.  But here's one reason for hope: US military officers take
their oath more seriously than most of our elected representatives (at least
they did in my day).  Back then, I bought a stack of pocket-size
Constitution booklets and gave one to the promotee every time I administered
the oath.


YES SIR!  Them and all the  people ne0politan named as potential tear 
or ists like veterans are our hope.  The counter is that every 
elected POS shyster also takes the oath to uphold the constitution. 
I do believe the officers take that oath more seriously than do the 
pols.


That reminds me of the jokes:  What do you call 50,000 layers drowned 
in lake Michigan?   [a good start]


How can ya tell if a lwyer is lying?  ['is lips are movin']


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Re: [MBZ] OT: shot Down in Flames gun propaganda!


ATF should be a convenience store not a government agency. :-)

The only folks who like the DHS have irrational fears or work for the
government.

Anti-gunners are just that - they have irrational fears against guns but
see no problems with rental trucks, fertilizer, diesel fuel, pressure
cookers, wheel bearings, automobiles, or airplanes which seem to kill
plenty of people...



gu ncontol has nothing to do with that.  It is about disarning the 
citlzens so they can be controlled, fed, starved or annihilated as 
desired by the enlightened few. (lenin, stalin, mao, dolphie, 
fidel, hugo etc.)



If it was not so, then rental trucks, fertilizer, diesel fuel, pressure
cookers, bearings, automobiles, bicycles,  knives, chains, baseball 
bats, 2x4s, airplanes etc. would all be banned also


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Re: [MBZ] OT: shot Down in Flames gun propaganda!

2013-04-20 Thread Greg Fiorentino

 you can't fight a modern army with the stuff you buy at walmart.

The Afghanis didn't even need a Walmart.  I've seen videos of Afghani
craftsmen making Enfield rifles with foot-powered lathes.  Perhaps they now
can make AK-47s using this kind of crude technology.  Modern warfare still
can't take and hold large territories without massive numbers of boots on
the ground.

Greg

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Hendrik
and fay
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 8:06 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: shot Down in Flames gun propaganda!

So the basis of that dribble is that if the citizens of Germany, Russia,
Japan, etc had been armed that there would not have been as many deaths or
the dictatorships would not have happened?
I don't think so.
The pro gun mob always wheel out this sort of thing because it is easy to
understand by the average gun owner, however the reality is that you can't
fight a modern army with the stuff you buy at walmart. Sure back in the day
when the most sophisticated military hardware was rifles and cannons, you
could fight an army but these days airpower is the key to victory and I did
not see any fighter jets or attack helicopters in the gun shops. Perhaps
Wilton has a B-52 stashed away in the back yard, just in case or a few might
have build a mini drone to spy on the neighbours but I really can't see that
doing much.
However I am happy enough for the gun crowd to have their little delusions
if it makes them feel happy and secure.
No point in alarming people.

Hendrik


On 21/04/13 05:32, Scott Ritchey wrote:
 I echo Max's view.  This was indeed an interesting read.

 The main reason the pro-gun community opposes National registration is 
 fear of government (including our own).  I'm certain that some on this 
 list believe that fear of our own government is simply nuts, paranoia.  
 I'm just as sure many Weimar Germans felt that way too; after all, 
 Germany was the most civilized country on the planet.

 I encountered this little clip that may provide some historical 
 perspective and food for thought:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=0sujnvIV4g4
 I haven't audited the numbers but, from memory, they are at least close.

 Scott


 -Original Message-
 From: Of Max Dillon


 Thanks for sharing that link, always enjoyable to read a well-reasoned 
 and researched explanation of any part of our constitution.



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[MBZ] Test

2013-04-20 Thread Rick Knoble

No mail today?

Rick
Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [MBZ] OT: shot Down in Flames gun propaganda!

2013-04-20 Thread G Mann

The point that civilians with hunting rifles are no match for the military
power is a point that is truly off point.

In the case of guys like hitler, stalin, po pot, ad nausium, the point is
not civilians against the military after these despotic s took charge of
the military and used them against the civilian populations... the valid
point is civilians vs despots before they gain total control and military
power... Case in point.. Hitler was a very unsuccessful civilian and
successful in manipulation to gain power. There could be good argument made
that had the citizenry simply paid attention and used the application of
armed force at that early stage, millions of lives world wide would have
not been lost. One armed citizen, with one bullet, at the right time and
place, millions alive because of it. Not citizens with hunting rifles and
kitchen knives against a well armed and supplied military..

In response to Greg, above Afgani comment.  I lived in Afghanistan and the
Northern Tribal Territories for 7 years. I have seen the gun makers in
action, used the weapons they made, had them make some for my personal use.
This was many years ago and even then, an AK-47 was well within their work
scope. However, the Russians made so many, why bother making one when you
could just shoot a Russian and take his along with his ammo and food. Case
in point, poorly armed civilians with purpose against huge, well armed and
supplied army...  Who went home and who stayed?

Your call.

Grant...
AZ


On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 9:13 PM, Greg Fiorentino gf...@dslnorthwest.netwrote:

  you can't fight a modern army with the stuff you buy at walmart.

 The Afghanis didn't even need a Walmart.  I've seen videos of Afghani
 craftsmen making Enfield rifles with foot-powered lathes.  Perhaps they now
 can make AK-47s using this kind of crude technology.  Modern warfare still
 can't take and hold large territories without massive numbers of boots on
 the ground.

 Greg

 -Original Message-
 From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Hendrik
 and fay
 Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 8:06 PM
 To: Mercedes Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: shot Down in Flames gun propaganda!

 So the basis of that dribble is that if the citizens of Germany, Russia,
 Japan, etc had been armed that there would not have been as many deaths or
 the dictatorships would not have happened?
 I don't think so.
 The pro gun mob always wheel out this sort of thing because it is easy to
 understand by the average gun owner, however the reality is that you can't
 fight a modern army with the stuff you buy at walmart. Sure back in the day
 when the most sophisticated military hardware was rifles and cannons, you
 could fight an army but these days airpower is the key to victory and I did
 not see any fighter jets or attack helicopters in the gun shops. Perhaps
 Wilton has a B-52 stashed away in the back yard, just in case or a few
 might
 have build a mini drone to spy on the neighbours but I really can't see
 that
 doing much.
 However I am happy enough for the gun crowd to have their little delusions
 if it makes them feel happy and secure.
 No point in alarming people.

 Hendrik


 On 21/04/13 05:32, Scott Ritchey wrote:
  I echo Max's view.  This was indeed an interesting read.
 
  The main reason the pro-gun community opposes National registration is
  fear of government (including our own).  I'm certain that some on this
  list believe that fear of our own government is simply nuts, paranoia.
  I'm just as sure many Weimar Germans felt that way too; after all,
  Germany was the most civilized country on the planet.
 
  I encountered this little clip that may provide some historical
  perspective and food for thought:
  http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=0sujnvIV4g4
  I haven't audited the numbers but, from memory, they are at least close.
 
  Scott
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Of Max Dillon
 
 
  Thanks for sharing that link, always enjoyable to read a well-reasoned
  and researched explanation of any part of our constitution.
 


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Re: [MBZ] OT: shot Down in Flames gun propaganda!