Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too...
I think the issue is the 9psi. I am not sure what the power difference is but it is noticeable in the seat of the pants. -Rolf On 08/01/2011 02:26 PM, Mitch Haley wrote: Rolf wrote: I realize my 300d is different than others but any 300d in good tune should be able to cruise up and down hills on the interstate without a problem. These cars were road tested in Germany which has plenty of hills. Are you sure your car is in good tune? What is the 0-60? A 1979 300SD, with oversized (215/75R14) tires, the pre-1980 engine with less power, and 3.07 diff, can accelerate (slowly) in 4th gear at 65mph up a 8% grade. Seems unlikely a W123 should have trouble with the later big cam engine, even with a 2.88. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too...
With the stock size tires it holds speed on the highway just fine. With the 207/75's I need to step down on it hard to get it to hold speed. Not that it won't do it, I just have to step on it harder to get the same result. I make my own fuel so I am pretty aware of how much I burn for a given trip, I make the same trips over and over, and I am burning more fuel with the taller tires, even on the highway. Mike On Aug 2, 2011 11:39 AM, Rolf r...@winmutt.com wrote: I think the issue is the 9psi. I am not sure what the power difference is but it is noticeable in the seat of the pants. -Rolf On 08/01/2011 02:26 PM, Mitch Haley wrote: Rolf wrote: I realize my 300d is different than others but any 300d in good tune should be able to cruise up and down hills on the interstate without a problem. These cars were road tested in Germany which has plenty of hills. Are you sure your car is in good tune? What is the 0-60? A 1979 300SD, with oversized (215/75R14) tires, the pre-1980 engine with less power, and 3.07 diff, can accelerate (slowly) in 4th gear at 65mph up a 8% grade. Seems unlikely a W123 should have trouble with the later big cam engine, even with a 2.88. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too...
I realize my 300d is different than others but any 300d in good tune should be able to cruise up and down hills on the interstate without a problem. These cars were road tested in Germany which has plenty of hills. Are you sure your car is in good tune? What is the 0-60? -Rolf On 07/31/2011 10:21 AM, Michael Canfield wrote: Interesting. And yes, the original idea was to lower rpm's at cruising speed in order to gain economy. With my F350 with na 7.3 I went from a 32 inch tire to a 35 inch tire and that got my rpm's down to about 1800 at 55mph and my mileage went up at least 3mpg overall. I don't keep a log and the odometer doesn't work on any of my trucks so I am figuring based on gps speedometer and nav system miles. Only rpughly accurate as I can not fill my tank or it will leak out the top So back to the Benz. I was just thinking the same principle might apply to that for gaining mpg. I put taller tires on the back to simulate the 85 gearing before I changed it out and I don't like it. There are too many hills around here. I have to have it wound up to 80 to maintain speed on hills on rte 81. It will run 100mph with ease with the change in gearing but I don't need that, I need hill pulling power. Mike Mike On Jul 31, 2011 10:05 AM, Rolfr...@winmutt.com wrote: The KKK has an external adjustment that is easy to get to. The Garret it a bit of a PITA but doable as well, no need to remove the turbos. -Rolf On 7/30/2011 6:35 PM, MG wrote: So really it isn't worth taking the turbo out to set the waste gate to a higher pressure since most of the driving I do I don't even get near the 9 but once a month if that. Less work is better, Manfred Message: 6 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 19:51:19 -0500 From: Peter Frederickpsf...@earthlink.net To: Mercedes Discussion Listmercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too... 11 psi is the max for a 617, but 14 psi is normal for a 603. You will get a bit more power at 11 than at 9 on a 617, but you will get greatly accelerated engine wear above 11. Note that the intake pressure and fuel delivery are related but not by a fixed amount. The governor will reduce the fuel even at high pressure if the engine speed is correct, although if you are not at high load, this will also reduce the pressure, but not in a linear way. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too...
Rolf wrote: I realize my 300d is different than others but any 300d in good tune should be able to cruise up and down hills on the interstate without a problem. These cars were road tested in Germany which has plenty of hills. Are you sure your car is in good tune? What is the 0-60? A 1979 300SD, with oversized (215/75R14) tires, the pre-1980 engine with less power, and 3.07 diff, can accelerate (slowly) in 4th gear at 65mph up a 8% grade. Seems unlikely a W123 should have trouble with the later big cam engine, even with a 2.88. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too...
Interestingly enough : http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=1985make=Mercedes-Benzmodel=300D/300CDhiddenField=Findacar vs http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=1984make=Mercedes-Benzmodel=300D/300CDhiddenField=Findacar I wonder if that has to do with the oxy trap etc? On 07/31/2011 05:11 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: Don't take this the wrong way but in every case when I've seen anyone estimate fuel mileage (even me) it'll tend to be off, and usually off badly. Without a properly corrected odometer and a fuel tank you can accurately fill to the same point every time your mileage numbers are hopeless. Your 3mpg improvement could just as easily be a 3mpg loss. It doesn't take much inaccuracy to change something like that. I've still never seen anybody make any kind of gearing change on a diesel to increase mileage with an accompanying odometer correction post real mileage figures so I still doubt that it makes a difference worth having. One last point, 1 ton trucks like your F350 are usually geared for towing so an overall gearing change (like bigger tires) are quite likely to make a positive impact on mileage with a gas or NA diesel. I think with a turbo diesel getting the highway RPM too low will negatively impact mileage or at least not help. -Curt Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 10:21:15 -0400 From: Michael Canfieldslozuk...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion Listmercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too... Message-ID: calhj_1bejfbe3hon-ups3r1b1k-uhsp0okgsyhqxxft_ycf...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Interesting. And yes, the original idea was to lower rpm's at cruising speed in order to gain economy. With my F350 with na 7.3 I went from a 32 inch tire to a 35 inch tire and that got my rpm's down to about 1800 at 55mph and my mileage went up at least 3mpg overall. I don't keep a log and the odometer doesn't work on any of my trucks so I am figuring based on gps speedometer and nav system miles. Only rpughly accurate as I can not fill my tank or it will leak out the top So back to the Benz. I was just thinking the same principle might apply to that for gaining mpg. I put taller tires on the back to simulate the 85 gearing before I changed it out and I don't like it. There are too many hills around here. I have to have it wound up to 80 to maintain speed on hills on rte 81. It will run 100mph with ease with the change in gearing but I don't need that, I need hill pulling power. Mike ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shaft too...
Yes but output efficiency does not equal fuel efficiency. This was about fuel efficiency unless I misread something. -Rolf On 7/29/2011 4:14 PM, Fmiser wrote: Rolf wrote: Remember the more boost the more fuel is being burnt. Ideally you want 1500 rpm at speed. I am at 1500rpm at 55mph in my 87 300d with the 5 speed. Efficiency increases with boost. So fuel used to cover a distance can actually _decrease_. The efficiency curve turbo-supercharger equipped engine is not a simple curve. :) -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too...
The KKK has an external adjustment that is easy to get to. The Garret it a bit of a PITA but doable as well, no need to remove the turbos. -Rolf On 7/30/2011 6:35 PM, MG wrote: So really it isn't worth taking the turbo out to set the waste gate to a higher pressure since most of the driving I do I don't even get near the 9 but once a month if that. Less work is better, Manfred Message: 6 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 19:51:19 -0500 From: Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too... 11 psi is the max for a 617, but 14 psi is normal for a 603. You will get a bit more power at 11 than at 9 on a 617, but you will get greatly accelerated engine wear above 11. Note that the intake pressure and fuel delivery are related but not by a fixed amount. The governor will reduce the fuel even at high pressure if the engine speed is correct, although if you are not at high load, this will also reduce the pressure, but not in a linear way. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too...
Interesting. And yes, the original idea was to lower rpm's at cruising speed in order to gain economy. With my F350 with na 7.3 I went from a 32 inch tire to a 35 inch tire and that got my rpm's down to about 1800 at 55mph and my mileage went up at least 3mpg overall. I don't keep a log and the odometer doesn't work on any of my trucks so I am figuring based on gps speedometer and nav system miles. Only rpughly accurate as I can not fill my tank or it will leak out the top So back to the Benz. I was just thinking the same principle might apply to that for gaining mpg. I put taller tires on the back to simulate the 85 gearing before I changed it out and I don't like it. There are too many hills around here. I have to have it wound up to 80 to maintain speed on hills on rte 81. It will run 100mph with ease with the change in gearing but I don't need that, I need hill pulling power. Mike Mike On Jul 31, 2011 10:05 AM, Rolf r...@winmutt.com wrote: The KKK has an external adjustment that is easy to get to. The Garret it a bit of a PITA but doable as well, no need to remove the turbos. -Rolf On 7/30/2011 6:35 PM, MG wrote: So really it isn't worth taking the turbo out to set the waste gate to a higher pressure since most of the driving I do I don't even get near the 9 but once a month if that. Less work is better, Manfred Message: 6 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 19:51:19 -0500 From: Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too... 11 psi is the max for a 617, but 14 psi is normal for a 603. You will get a bit more power at 11 than at 9 on a 617, but you will get greatly accelerated engine wear above 11. Note that the intake pressure and fuel delivery are related but not by a fixed amount. The governor will reduce the fuel even at high pressure if the engine speed is correct, although if you are not at high load, this will also reduce the pressure, but not in a linear way. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shaft too...
Thats the part I don't understand, how can you make the output efficiency higher without increasing fuel efficiency at any given load? If the engine is more efficient at producing a given level of work it must use less fuel otherwise what is the efficiency good for? The turbo kicks in, the engine produces more power, your foot backs off the throttle because you don't need/want to go faster, the amount of fuel used is less... -Curt Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 10:02:48 -0400 From: Rolf r...@winmutt.com To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shafttoo... Message-ID: 4e356088.5080...@winmutt.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Yes but output efficiency does not equal fuel efficiency. This was about fuel efficiency unless I misread something. -Rolf On 7/29/2011 4:14 PM, Fmiser wrote: Rolf wrote: Remember the more boost the more fuel is being burnt. Ideally you want 1500 rpm at speed. I am at 1500rpm at 55mph in my 87 300d with the 5 speed. Efficiency increases with boost. So fuel used to cover a distance can actually _decrease_. The efficiency curve turbo-supercharger equipped engine is not a simple curve. :) -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too...
Don't take this the wrong way but in every case when I've seen anyone estimate fuel mileage (even me) it'll tend to be off, and usually off badly. Without a properly corrected odometer and a fuel tank you can accurately fill to the same point every time your mileage numbers are hopeless. Your 3mpg improvement could just as easily be a 3mpg loss. It doesn't take much inaccuracy to change something like that. I've still never seen anybody make any kind of gearing change on a diesel to increase mileage with an accompanying odometer correction post real mileage figures so I still doubt that it makes a difference worth having. One last point, 1 ton trucks like your F350 are usually geared for towing so an overall gearing change (like bigger tires) are quite likely to make a positive impact on mileage with a gas or NA diesel. I think with a turbo diesel getting the highway RPM too low will negatively impact mileage or at least not help. -Curt Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 10:21:15 -0400 From: Michael Canfield slozuk...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too... Message-ID: calhj_1bejfbe3hon-ups3r1b1k-uhsp0okgsyhqxxft_ycf...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Interesting. And yes, the original idea was to lower rpm's at cruising speed in order to gain economy. With my F350 with na 7.3 I went from a 32 inch tire to a 35 inch tire and that got my rpm's down to about 1800 at 55mph and my mileage went up at least 3mpg overall. I don't keep a log and the odometer doesn't work on any of my trucks so I am figuring based on gps speedometer and nav system miles. Only rpughly accurate as I can not fill my tank or it will leak out the top So back to the Benz. I was just thinking the same principle might apply to that for gaining mpg. I put taller tires on the back to simulate the 85 gearing before I changed it out and I don't like it. There are too many hills around here. I have to have it wound up to 80 to maintain speed on hills on rte 81. It will run 100mph with ease with the change in gearing but I don't need that, I need hill pulling power. Mike ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shaft too...
On Sun, 31 Jul 2011 14:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote: Thats the part I don't understand, how can you make the output efficiency higher without increasing fuel efficiency at any given load? If the engine is more efficient at producing a given level of work it must use less fuel otherwise what is the efficiency good for? The turbo kicks in, the engine produces more power, your foot backs off the throttle because you don't need/want to go faster, the amount of fuel used is less... I think we are now into semantics. Craig Yes but output efficiency does not equal fuel efficiency. This was about fuel efficiency unless I misread something. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, , shaft too...
Yeah so I've heard. I have the Garret and if I do it it will be when it's out and replace the bearings and seals at the same time. Manfred Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 10:04:24 -0400 From: Rolf r...@winmutt.com To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too... Message-ID: 4e3560e8.5040...@winmutt.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed The KKK has an external adjustment that is easy to get to. The Garret it a bit of a PITA but doable as well, no need to remove the turbos. -Rolf ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too...
So really it isn't worth taking the turbo out to set the waste gate to a higher pressure since most of the driving I do I don't even get near the 9 but once a month if that. Less work is better, Manfred Message: 6 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 19:51:19 -0500 From: Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too... 11 psi is the max for a 617, but 14 psi is normal for a 603. You will get a bit more power at 11 than at 9 on a 617, but you will get greatly accelerated engine wear above 11. Note that the intake pressure and fuel delivery are related but not by a fixed amount. The governor will reduce the fuel even at high pressure if the engine speed is correct, although if you are not at high load, this will also reduce the pressure, but not in a linear way. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too...
Philip, If it helps on two different 300D's both 83's, I have measured from 5 to 6 lbs boost at 55-60mph. So if yours is doing that then I would think it is pretty much normal. The max boost I have measured on both is right at 9lbs so the 5-6lbs is not due to the bypass valve opening. BTW on one of these the turbo is rebuilt so everything should be in good condition and therefor normal as from the factory. I can't see any way to increase the boost at highway speeds other then to use a different turbo (smaller or larger?) that would turn at higher RPM to increase boost. Manfred Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 16:37:56 -0500 From: Fmiser fmi...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shaft too... I don't like the long-legged gearing on my 85. The engine is running too slow at low highway speeds. (Best I can remember. The tach is still dead) The turbo isn't really working much at 55-60 mph. --Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too...
Proper boost is 11psi. Youd be surprised how much of a diff 2-3 psi makes. You might be able to increase cruising boost by using a manual boost controller. The waste gate will start opening as it approaches max psi, making for more of a curve, with the mbc you get a straight ride up and then a direct fall off. -Rolf On 07/29/2011 10:43 AM, MG wrote: Philip, If it helps on two different 300D's both 83's, I have measured from 5 to 6 lbs boost at 55-60mph. So if yours is doing that then I would think it is pretty much normal. The max boost I have measured on both is right at 9lbs so the 5-6lbs is not due to the bypass valve opening. BTW on one of these the turbo is rebuilt so everything should be in good condition and therefor normal as from the factory. I can't see any way to increase the boost at highway speeds other then to use a different turbo (smaller or larger?) that would turn at higher RPM to increase boost. Manfred Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 16:37:56 -0500 From: Fmiser fmi...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shaft too... I don't like the long-legged gearing on my 85. The engine is running too slow at low highway speeds. (Best I can remember. The tach is still dead) The turbo isn't really working much at 55-60 mph. --Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shaft too...
Thats because the optimal cruising speed for a 85 300d with 2.88 gearing is 74.5mph. -Rolf I don't like the long-legged gearing on my 85. The engine is running too slow at low highway speeds. (Best I can remember. The tach is still dead) The turbo isn't really working much at 55-60 mph. --Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shaft too...
Remember the more boost the more fuel is being burnt. Ideally you want 1500 rpm at speed. I am at 1500rpm at 55mph in my 87 300d with the 5 speed. -Rolf On 07/28/2011 07:08 PM, Michael Canfield wrote: I was thinking the 85 gears would get me better fuel economy at highway speeds. Maybe at the cost of worse mileage overall if the turbo isn't spooled up enough at average travel speeds. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shaft too...
What is the optimal cruising speed for the 83 300d? Mike On Jul 29, 2011 1:53 PM, Rolf r...@winmutt.com wrote: Thats because the optimal cruising speed for a 85 300d with 2.88 gearing is 74.5mph. -Rolf I don't like the long-legged gearing on my 85. The engine is running too slow at low highway speeds. (Best I can remember. The tach is still dead) The turbo isn't really working much at 55-60 mph. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shaft too...
68mph I would guess. 2.88/3.07*120kph. The was in a thread I read quoted from MB, I think this is not over all MPG but bang for buck assuming time and diesel costs money. -Rolf On 07/29/2011 02:01 PM, Michael Canfield wrote: What is the optimal cruising speed for the 83 300d? Mike On Jul 29, 2011 1:53 PM, Rolfr...@winmutt.com wrote: Thats because the optimal cruising speed for a 85 300d with 2.88 gearing is 74.5mph. -Rolf I don't like the long-legged gearing on my 85. The engine is running too slow at low highway speeds. (Best I can remember. The tach is still dead) The turbo isn't really working much at 55-60 mph. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shaft too...
Fmiser wrote: I don't like the long-legged gearing on my 85. The engine is running too slow at low highway speeds. (Best I can remember. The tach is still dead) The turbo isn't really working much at 55-60 mph. Rolf wrote: Thats because the optimal cruising speed for a 85 300d with 2.88 gearing is 74.5mph. What size tire? And I'm mighty curious how you arrived at that particular speed as the optimal. But kinda my point. And Mike was contemplating putting the tall gears in to improve fuel efficiency. And I was warning that it might not really help. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shaft too...
Rolf wrote: Remember the more boost the more fuel is being burnt. Ideally you want 1500 rpm at speed. I am at 1500rpm at 55mph in my 87 300d with the 5 speed. Efficiency increases with boost. So fuel used to cover a distance can actually _decrease_. The efficiency curve turbo-supercharger equipped engine is not a simple curve. :) -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shaft too...
Boost starts building at ~1800rpm, 1500rpm is where I am out of stall, ymmv on an automatic. More boost does mean you are burning more fuel automatically because of the ALDA on those cars equipped with them, the electronic IPs are a different beast altogether. Engine efficiency does not equal MPG as does optimal not equal minimal. I am pretty sure fuel is not increased on load as the bench tests dont involve load. Again on the mechanical IPs. If fuel did increase on load you would not have to move the pedal when you go up a hill. I could be totally wrong on this part, the OP mentioned that a heavy load ruined his axles, this is actually possible IMO, as it happened with me (atleast this is my theory). As your rear sags (in my case I lowered the car) the angle that the joints work at changes. Youve spent a hundred thousand miles at essentially one angle. Then bam, you've changed the angle, increased the load on the joint and the balls start tearing into new metal. Then the trip is over and suddenly you are back to the 100k wear mark but suddenly you have alot more area to move in. -Rolf On 07/29/2011 03:33 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: Why 1500rpm? The turbo isn't kicking in at 1500 rpm... More boost doesn't equal more fuel being burnt automatically, the load on the engine plays into that. I don't know HOW but it does. The turbo makes the engine more efficient not less, if you're not into the turbo you're not making optimal efficiency which is where optimal fuel economy will come in. An OM601 IIRC has its peak torque somewhere around 2500rpm so with my '85 190D I used to endevor to keep it there. With the 5spd that was somewhere around 62mph in 5th. In later testing I realized it didn't make a whole lot of difference to my fuel economy what the speed of the engine was, it was more on the speed of the CAR. The sweet spot still seemed to be around 62mph, slower than that and I went stir crazy, faster and the fuel gauge dropped faster than I like. -Curt Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 13:56:07 -0400 From: Rolfr...@winmutt.com To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shafttoo... Message-ID:4e32f437.7080...@winmutt.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Remember the more boost the more fuel is being burnt. Ideally you want 1500 rpm at speed. I am at 1500rpm at 55mph in my 87 300d with the 5 speed. -Rolf On 07/28/2011 07:08 PM, Michael Canfield wrote: I was thinking the 85 gears would get me better fuel economy at highway speeds. Maybe at the cost of worse mileage overall if the turbo isn't spooled up enough at average travel speeds. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shaft too...
This was in MB literature somewhere, referencing 75mph. I was being a bit more precise (anal? facetious? trolling?) as it would make sense that the car would be setup for 120kph. This would be with stock tires of course. -Rolf On 07/29/2011 04:09 PM, Fmiser wrote: Fmiser wrote: I don't like the long-legged gearing on my 85. The engine is running too slow at low highway speeds. (Best I can remember. The tach is still dead) The turbo isn't really working much at 55-60 mph. Rolf wrote: Thats because the optimal cruising speed for a 85 300d with 2.88 gearing is 74.5mph. What size tire? And I'm mighty curious how you arrived at that particular speed as the optimal. But kinda my point. And Mike was contemplating putting the tall gears in to improve fuel efficiency. And I was warning that it might not really help. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shaft too...
Have you done any actual testing to prove this theory? Its just that your suggestions go against everything I've ever read about diesel theory and my own results. Unfortunately I don't have any results involving a turbo so my ideas are totally based on NA engines but I do have a good feel (150,000+ documented miles) for how the NA engines perform in 190Ds and 240Ds. -Curt Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 16:26:44 -0400 From: Rolf r...@winmutt.com To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shafttoo... Message-ID: 4e331784.4070...@winmutt.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Boost starts building at ~1800rpm, 1500rpm is where I am out of stall, ymmv on an automatic. More boost does mean you are burning more fuel automatically because of the ALDA on those cars equipped with them, the electronic IPs are a different beast altogether. Engine efficiency does not equal MPG as does optimal not equal minimal. I am pretty sure fuel is not increased on load as the bench tests dont involve load. Again on the mechanical IPs. If fuel did increase on load you would not have to move the pedal when you go up a hill. I could be totally wrong on this part, the OP mentioned that a heavy load ruined his axles, this is actually possible IMO, as it happened with me (atleast this is my theory). As your rear sags (in my case I lowered the car) the angle that the joints work at changes. Youve spent a hundred thousand miles at essentially one angle. Then bam, you've changed the angle, increased the load on the joint and the balls start tearing into new metal. Then the trip is over and suddenly you are back to the 100k wear mark but suddenly you have alot more area to move in. -Rolf On 07/29/2011 03:33 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: Why 1500rpm? The turbo isn't kicking in at 1500 rpm... More boost doesn't equal more fuel being burnt automatically, the load on the engine plays into that. I don't know HOW but it does. The turbo makes the engine more efficient not less, if you're not into the turbo you're not making optimal efficiency which is where optimal fuel economy will come in. An OM601 IIRC has its peak torque somewhere around 2500rpm so with my '85 190D I used to endevor to keep it there. With the 5spd that was somewhere around 62mph in 5th. In later testing I realized it didn't make a whole lot of difference to my fuel economy what the speed of the engine was, it was more on the speed of the CAR. The sweet spot still seemed to be around 62mph, slower than that and I went stir crazy, faster and the fuel gauge dropped faster than I like. -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too...
Doesn't a manual boost controller just take the place of the waste gate? If so then I would still have just the 5-6 lbs at 55-60. The boost only goes higher then that when I really push the peddle down to accelerate fast and it will go up fast and then stop right at 9lbs. It doesn't matter if I am going 45 or 60 when I nail it the boost pops up and then stops at 9. When I let off to go to cruise the boost comes down just as fast to whatever the steady state pressure is for that speed. I can see where a manual boost controller will allow the boost to go higher at the top end but don't really see it increasing the boost at 5-6lbs. I don't think the spring is that weak that it would be letting exhaust by at that low a pressure, especially in the one that has just been rebuilt. From what I have read in a lot of different places 9lbs seems to be the most reported top pressure in unmodified turbos. I have been thinking of turning the spring adjustment to try and raise the top boost but haven't had the time to remove and dissect one of the turbos and do that. When I get to that I will let everyone know what I found out. Right now I just took time out to pull all the trim off the 300D and get the worst dents taken out and repainted. Looks quite nice but I wish I hadn't done it. Now I worry all the time about someone banging into it with their door. I've taken to parking farther away and walking a bit. May get over that in a while or I may just sell it so I don't have to worry about it any more. Manfred Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 13:28:41 -0400 From: Rolf r...@winmutt.com To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too... Message-ID: 4e32edc9.9090...@winmutt.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Proper boost is 11psi. Youd be surprised how much of a diff 2-3 psi makes. You might be able to increase cruising boost by using a manual boost controller. The waste gate will start opening as it approaches max psi, making for more of a curve, with the mbc you get a straight ride up and then a direct fall off. -Rolf ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv, shaft too...
11 psi is the max for a 617, but 14 psi is normal for a 603. You will get a bit more power at 11 than at 9 on a 617, but you will get greatly accelerated engine wear above 11. Note that the intake pressure and fuel delivery are related but not by a fixed amount. The governor will reduce the fuel even at high pressure if the engine speed is correct, although if you are not at high load, this will also reduce the pressure, but not in a linear way. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shaft too...
Rolf r...@winmutt.com wrote: Boost starts building at ~1800rpm, 1500rpm is where I am out of stall, ymmv on an automatic. More boost does mean you are burning more fuel automatically because of the ALDA on those cars equipped with them, the electronic IPs are a different beast altogether. Engine efficiency does not equal MPG as does optimal not equal minimal. Curt Raymond wrote: Have you done any actual testing to prove this theory? Its just that your suggestions go against everything I've ever read about diesel theory and my own results. Unfortunately I don't have any results involving a turbo so my ideas are totally based on NA engines but I do have a good feel (150,000 + documented miles) for how the NA engines perform in 190Ds and 240Ds. At a give RPM and a given fuel rack position on an engine with an ALDA adding boost will increase the fuel used. But that's not how most of us drive because we don't directly care what the power output is, we regulate the RPM against the load by changing the fuel used. With the turbo contributing generously, more heat energy from the fuel is turned into torque. So if you were to compare the fuel rack position on an engines with a matching load and RPM once with turbo and once without the non-turbo run would have the rack delivering more fuel. The ALDA would notice the lack of boost and decrease the fuel delivered. Still, the amount of fuel required by the non-turbo run would be more than the turbo despite the ALDA allowing more fuel. That's because the turbo increases efficiency, the fuel needed to maintain RPM at that load will be _less_ with the turbo because less heat is wasted. Add to the confusion the torque curve, the efficiency curve, air resistance curve, etc and it's pretty complex to try to calculate. However, efficiency _does_ equal MPG. The problem is trying to get the dozen other factors to match so apples are compared to apples. -- Philip, with some spreadsheets to help with the calculating ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shaft too...
I do not know who that is. Having more fun, found the right cv shaft is bad so I am learning how much fun it is to swap over the older style shaft from my 78 coupe into the 83. Not really too bad of a job to do. I see no issues with running an old style shaft on one side and a new style on the other..does anyone see a problem with that? I am assuming that I killed the shaft and bearings because the car was riding so low and grossly overloaded on my 900 mile trip to Detroit and back. I think I am going to consider swapping out a sls rear from a TD so it hauls better. I have all of the parts, I wonder if they are any good..I might even swap the rear to 85 gears while I am at it and see if it runs out better on the highway. Mike On Jul 28, 2011 2:04 PM, Rolf r...@winmutt.com wrote: Brian Carlton has the socket. -Rolf On 07/28/2011 01:53 PM, Michael Canfield wrote: Need to change rear wheel bearings in my 300d. I need the socket to fit the locking nut on the inside of the bearing. Where is the best place to find one? Rusty? How about bearings and seals? Thanks, Mike ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shaft too...
Michael Canfield wrote: I am assuming that I killed the shaft and bearings because the car was riding so low and grossly overloaded on my 900 mile trip to Detroit and back. I doubt that had any effect on the axle shaft. It carries no load. And if overloading the car caused shaft failure, I would have chronic shaft failure problems and I don't. I think I am going to consider swapping out a sls rear from a TD so it hauls better. I have all of the parts, I wonder if they are any good. It should be possible, with a bit of work. Cylinder head with pump, tank, pipes, suspension valve, accumulators (spheres), shocks. Some fabrication will be needed, but nothing major. I might even swap the rear to 85 gears while I am at it and see if it runs out better on the highway. I don't like the long-legged gearing on my 85. The engine is running too slow at low highway speeds. (Best I can remember. The tach is still dead) The turbo isn't really working much at 55-60 mph. --Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shaft too...
I was thinking the 85 gears would get me better fuel economy at highway speeds. Maybe at the cost of worse mileage overall if the turbo isn't spooled up enough at average travel speeds. H. I will have to experiment. I see my rear control arm is getting rusted through on the bottom so I will be dropping the whole rear suspension assembly to replace that. Guess that would be a good time to swap over some parts from the wagons. Mike On Jul 28, 2011 5:39 PM, Fmiser fmi...@gmail.com wrote: Michael Canfield wrote: I am assuming that I killed the shaft and bearings because the car was riding so low and grossly overloaded on my 900 mile trip to Detroit and back. I doubt that had any effect on the axle shaft. It carries no load. And if overloading the car caused shaft failure, I would have chronic shaft failure problems and I don't. I think I am going to consider swapping out a sls rear from a TD so it hauls better. I have all of the parts, I wonder if they are any good. It should be possible, with a bit of work. Cylinder head with pump, tank, pipes, suspension valve, accumulators (spheres), shocks. Some fabrication will be needed, but nothing major. I might even swap the rear to 85 gears while I am at it and see if it runs out better on the highway. I don't like the long-legged gearing on my 85. The engine is running too slow at low highway speeds. (Best I can remember. The tach is still dead) The turbo isn't really working much at 55-60 mph. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shaft too...
Michael Canfield wrote: I was thinking the 85 gears would get me better fuel economy at highway speeds. Maybe at the cost of worse mileage overall if the turbo isn't spooled up enough at average travel speeds. If you do a lot of 75-80 MPH driving and very little 50-60, it might do fine. --Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shaft too...
Not on a diesel. The amount of fuel used to travel is directly related to the power required to move the car at that speed, it has little to do with the rotational speed of the engine. When I had my '85 190D I spent a bunch of time comparing my commute mpg between 4th and 5th gear. I could never find an appreciable difference in mpg, I saw a much bigger variation when using snow tires... -Curt Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 19:08:55 -0400 From: Michael Canfield slozuk...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bearing kit and special tool? Now chaning a cv shafttoo... Message-ID: CALHJ_1BvbtWYO5=hfr9ayxd+w_h_azcuvadnuacn5hrhhsr...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I was thinking the 85 gears would get me better fuel economy at highway speeds. Maybe at the cost of worse mileage overall if the turbo isn't spooled up enough at average travel speeds. H. I will have to experiment. I see my rear control arm is getting rusted through on the bottom so I will be dropping the whole rear suspension assembly to replace that. Guess that would be a good time to swap over some parts from the wagons. Mike On Jul 28, 2011 5:39 PM, Fmiser fmi...@gmail.com wrote: ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
