Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
John Reames wrote: Iirc McDonalds special orders their brewers with hot plate thermostats that are 20 degrees hotter than standard. I'm surprised that Bunn was not dragged in as a defendant for manufacturing a dangerous brewer... I want to say that the plate thermostats are 190-195 on the McD units... I defy anyone to drink it at that temperature. I also seem to recall that it was cost driven, as they figured their special brew would last longer at the higher temp than would otherwise be expected, thereby saving money in not having to dump out the urns and brew fresh as often. I know that the water heater in the residential grade Bunns is kept at 160-165 according to the manual, because they say that's the best temp to brew at. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
Espresso is coffee tamped to restrict flow to 27mL in 25s when 90C water is pumped at 9bars... I think that's closer to 190 than 165, but then that's espresso and not drip... -- John W Reames jream...@verizon.net Home: +14106646986 Mobile: +14437915905 On Nov 29, 2012, at 7:52, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: John Reames wrote: Iirc McDonalds special orders their brewers with hot plate thermostats that are 20 degrees hotter than standard. I'm surprised that Bunn was not dragged in as a defendant for manufacturing a dangerous brewer... I want to say that the plate thermostats are 190-195 on the McD units... I defy anyone to drink it at that temperature. I also seem to recall that it was cost driven, as they figured their special brew would last longer at the higher temp than would otherwise be expected, thereby saving money in not having to dump out the urns and brew fresh as often. I know that the water heater in the residential grade Bunns is kept at 160-165 according to the manual, because they say that's the best temp to brew at. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 08:58:21 -0500 John Reames jwrea...@comcast.net wrote: Espresso is coffee tamped to restrict flow to 27mL in 25s when 90C water is pumped at 9bars... I think that's closer to 190 than 165, but then that's espresso and not drip... 90 deg.C = 194 deg.F Just use: C5 -- = --- F-32 9 Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
On Nov 28, 2012 5:55 PM, Gerry Archer arche...@embarqmail.com wrote: I wonder why the judge reduced the award 80%? Treble damages is a valid punishment that will stand on appeal, an arbitrary number is not. The total went from $2.1M to $640K. In the end they settled and signed an NDA so who knows what the final number was, but at least they stayed out of the rest of the courts. BTW, decent writeup at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants What are you driving now, Donald? Indeed, but I doubt that will put us back on topic. :) Best, -Tim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
Gerry asked: What are you driving now, Donald? I'm still driving the Lexus I bought from my father. 2003 Lexus ES 300 with 56,000 miles. It's a very competent car that performs admirably without any flash or trouble. In other words, it's a typical Camry/ES 300. Donald H. Snook ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
Sounds WAY too boring for you! On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 9:19 AM, Donald Snook dsn...@mtsqh.com wrote: Gerry asked: What are you driving now, Donald? I'm still driving the Lexus I bought from my father. 2003 Lexus ES 300 with 56,000 miles. It's a very competent car that performs admirably without any flash or trouble. In other words, it's a typical Camry/ES 300. Donald H. Snook ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- OK Don 2001 ML320 2012 Passat TDI DSG 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager 1957 C182A ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 8:46 PM, Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com wrote: You have to love this guy... http://www.torinfo.com/justforlaughs/coyote_v_acme.html We watched Hot Coffee last night. Ironically we started just as you were posting this. :) Hot Coffee is a better discussion for banned, but if you have never thought about binding arbitration or tort reform then it is worth watching. Best, Tim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
The first Ian Frazier piece I ever experienced was his Lamentations, which I read in the Atlantic. Funny stuff. Dan Sent from my iPad On Nov 28, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Tim C bb...@crone.us wrote: On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 8:46 PM, Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com wrote: You have to love this guy... http://www.torinfo.com/justforlaughs/coyote_v_acme.html We watched Hot Coffee last night. Ironically we started just as you were posting this. :) Hot Coffee is a better discussion for banned, but if you have never thought about binding arbitration or tort reform then it is worth watching. Best, Tim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
I take serious issue with this mischaracterization as frivolous litigation. My ex spouse was seriously scalded (1st degree burns) by McD's hot coffee that spilled in her lap. This occurred 2+ minutes from purchase. The lawsuit and judgment were rightly deserved; as McDs had been warned many times about the hazards of their superheated brew. P.S. We never thought to litigate but can understand why someone else did. On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Tim C bb...@crone.us wrote: On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 8:46 PM, Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com wrote: You have to love this guy... http://www.torinfo.com/justforlaughs/coyote_v_acme.html We watched Hot Coffee last night. Ironically we started just as you were posting this. :) Hot Coffee is a better discussion for banned, but if you have never thought about binding arbitration or tort reform then it is worth watching. Best, Tim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
BUT . . . . Would you buy coffee from a place that did not keep it hot? Do you not think that an adult knows or ought to know that hot coffee should not be spilled in one's lap? Do you not think that when one does spill hot coffee in one's lap, that one should assume the fault unless one is bumped or in some other manner caused by someone else to spill the coffee? Especially when it is in a drive through line. How is McD's supposed to prevent someone driving a car from spilling coffee once the cup is handed over? Do we put childproof caps on the cup so one cannot drink it in the car? If the coffee is handed to one, and the person at the window says don't worry, the coffee is not hot enough to hurt you if you spill it on your lap is one not most likely to complain that one only drinks hot coffee??? The world is becoming a wierd place. No one wants to assume any fault at all for their own actions. Accidents are unfortunate and sometimes people get hurt but very often it is their own fault. Should I sue the folks who built the stairs that I slipped on last week? I have only lived in that house for 31 years. I know those steps are narrower than I would like them to be and I need to be extra careful but I still managed to slip. Whose fault is that if not mine? Randy who is probably not a very typical lawyer On 28/11/2012 11:34 AM, andrew strasfogel wrote: I take serious issue with this mischaracterization as frivolous litigation. My ex spouse was seriously scalded (1st degree burns) by McD's hot coffee that spilled in her lap. This occurred 2+ minutes from purchase. The lawsuit and judgment were rightly deserved; as McDs had been warned many times about the hazards of their superheated brew. P.S. We never thought to litigate but can understand why someone else did. On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Tim C bb...@crone.us wrote: On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 8:46 PM, Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com wrote: You have to love this guy... http://www.torinfo.com/justforlaughs/coyote_v_acme.html We watched Hot Coffee last night. Ironically we started just as you were posting this. :) Hot Coffee is a better discussion for banned, but if you have never thought about binding arbitration or tort reform then it is worth watching. Best, Tim ___ ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
Well stated, Randy. John Sent from my iPad On Nov 28, 2012, at 9:48 AM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: BUT . . . . Would you buy coffee from a place that did not keep it hot? Do you not think that an adult knows or ought to know that hot coffee should not be spilled in one's lap? Do you not think that when one does spill hot coffee in one's lap, that one should assume the fault unless one is bumped or in some other manner caused by someone else to spill the coffee? Especially when it is in a drive through line. How is McD's supposed to prevent someone driving a car from spilling coffee once the cup is handed over? Do we put childproof caps on the cup so one cannot drink it in the car? If the coffee is handed to one, and the person at the window says don't worry, the coffee is not hot enough to hurt you if you spill it on your lap is one not most likely to complain that one only drinks hot coffee??? The world is becoming a wierd place. No one wants to assume any fault at all for their own actions. Accidents are unfortunate and sometimes people get hurt but very often it is their own fault. Should I sue the folks who built the stairs that I slipped on last week? I have only lived in that house for 31 years. I know those steps are narrower than I would like them to be and I need to be extra careful but I still managed to slip. Whose fault is that if not mine? Randy who is probably not a very typical lawyer On 28/11/2012 11:34 AM, andrew strasfogel wrote: I take serious issue with this mischaracterization as frivolous litigation. My ex spouse was seriously scalded (1st degree burns) by McD's hot coffee that spilled in her lap. This occurred 2+ minutes from purchase. The lawsuit and judgment were rightly deserved; as McDs had been warned many times about the hazards of their superheated brew. P.S. We never thought to litigate but can understand why someone else did. On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Tim C bb...@crone.us wrote: On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 8:46 PM, Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com wrote: You have to love this guy... http://www.torinfo.com/justforlaughs/coyote_v_acme.html We watched Hot Coffee last night. Ironically we started just as you were posting this. :) Hot Coffee is a better discussion for banned, but if you have never thought about binding arbitration or tort reform then it is worth watching. Best, Tim ___ ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
But, is there a sign posted in clear view near the stairs that clearly states in English and, maybe, French pour votre amis Quebecois, that, Negotiating stairs can be dangerous, use handrail, do not use stairs in stocking feet, do not run on stairs, etc.? :) Wilton - Original Message - From: Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again BUT . . . . Would you buy coffee from a place that did not keep it hot? Do you not think that an adult knows or ought to know that hot coffee should not be spilled in one's lap? Do you not think that when one does spill hot coffee in one's lap, that one should assume the fault unless one is bumped or in some other manner caused by someone else to spill the coffee? Especially when it is in a drive through line. How is McD's supposed to prevent someone driving a car from spilling coffee once the cup is handed over? Do we put childproof caps on the cup so one cannot drink it in the car? If the coffee is handed to one, and the person at the window says don't worry, the coffee is not hot enough to hurt you if you spill it on your lap is one not most likely to complain that one only drinks hot coffee??? The world is becoming a wierd place. No one wants to assume any fault at all for their own actions. Accidents are unfortunate and sometimes people get hurt but very often it is their own fault. Should I sue the folks who built the stairs that I slipped on last week? I have only lived in that house for 31 years. I know those steps are narrower than I would like them to be and I need to be extra careful but I still managed to slip. Whose fault is that if not mine? Randy who is probably not a very typical lawyer On 28/11/2012 11:34 AM, andrew strasfogel wrote: I take serious issue with this mischaracterization as frivolous litigation. My ex spouse was seriously scalded (1st degree burns) by McD's hot coffee that spilled in her lap. This occurred 2+ minutes from purchase. The lawsuit and judgment were rightly deserved; as McDs had been warned many times about the hazards of their superheated brew. P.S. We never thought to litigate but can understand why someone else did. On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Tim C bb...@crone.us wrote: On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 8:46 PM, Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com wrote: You have to love this guy... http://www.torinfo.com/justforlaughs/coyote_v_acme.html We watched Hot Coffee last night. Ironically we started just as you were posting this. :) Hot Coffee is a better discussion for banned, but if you have never thought about binding arbitration or tort reform then it is worth watching. Best, Tim ___ ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 12:48 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: BUT . . . . Would you buy coffee from a place that did not keep it hot? Do you not think that an adult knows or ought to know that hot coffee should not be spilled in one's lap? Do you not think that when one does spill hot coffee in one's lap, that one should assume the fault unless one is bumped or in some other manner caused by someone else to spill the coffee? Especially when it is in a drive through line. How is McD's supposed to prevent someone driving a car from spilling coffee once the cup is handed over? Do we put childproof caps on the cup so one cannot drink it in the car? It is questions like this that inspired the person to create the documentary. It not only covers the McDonald's coffee case but several others as well, with a larger eye to the political concept of tort reform. Binding arbitration was almost an afterthought, but I hadn't thought about it as much so it stuck out to me. Politics are US centric but obviously the concepts may be generally interesting. The filmmaker did interview the family of the woman who was injured, some graphics too if you're into that kind of thing. I knew going in that the press reports on the McDonald's coffee case were only loosely based on reality, but it's one thing to know that and another thing to hear about it from the woman's survivors. If the coffee is handed to one, and the person at the window says don't worry, the coffee is not hot enough to hurt you if you spill it on your lap is one not most likely to complain that one only drinks hot coffee??? I don't drink coffee, but if they hand me a cup of boiling Diet Coke it is definitely going back. :) The world is becoming a wierd place. No one wants to assume any fault at all for their own actions. Accidents are unfortunate and sometimes people get hurt but very often it is their own fault. In NC I would not expect her to have been awarded anything, even medical costs, because the jury found that she was 20% at fault. They didn't mention contributory negligence in the documentary, I'm not sure how many states are still set up that way. Should I sue the folks who built the stairs that I slipped on last week? I have only lived in that house for 31 years. I know those steps are narrower than I would like them to be and I need to be extra careful but I still managed to slip. Whose fault is that if not mine? Depends, how many people have slipped down your staircase in the past few months? Would you say there is something wrong with your staircase; maybe several of the boards are loose, or half the steps are missing? Let's say the biggest single source of accidents in the house is that staircase, you and your visitors have a history of hundreds of falls a month down the staircase, and you have never bothered to do anything about it even though you were completely aware of what was going on. Not sure the folks who built the staircase would be liable, but you might be (which, by the way, is obviously not the reality of your situation - hope you are feeling better :). Randy who is probably not a very typical lawyer Well, not a typical American lawyer at least... Best, -Tim is never happy to go to court and this is completely off topic, sorry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 1:06 PM, WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote: But, is there a sign posted in clear view near the stairs that clearly states in English and, maybe, French pour votre amis Quebecois, that, Negotiating stairs can be dangerous, use handrail, do not use stairs in stocking feet, do not run on stairs, etc.? :) I am sorely tempted to put these at the top of the basement staircase, but I think SWMBO is not quite ready for it. :) Also Please verify that life insurance designees are correct before proceeding. Best, -Tim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
No, I will no doubt have to sue the builder for failure to post the proper warning signs too. Randy On 28/11/2012 12:06 PM, WILTON wrote: But, is there a sign posted in clear view near the stairs that clearly states in English and, maybe, French pour votre amis Quebecois, that, Negotiating stairs can be dangerous, use handrail, do not use stairs in stocking feet, do not run on stairs, etc.? :) Wilton - Original Message - From: Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again BUT . . . . Would you buy coffee from a place that did not keep it hot? Do you not think that an adult knows or ought to know that hot coffee should not be spilled in one's lap? Do you not think that when one does spill hot coffee in one's lap, that one should assume the fault unless one is bumped or in some other manner caused by someone else to spill the coffee? Especially when it is in a drive through line. How is McD's supposed to prevent someone driving a car from spilling coffee once the cup is handed over? Do we put childproof caps on the cup so one cannot drink it in the car? If the coffee is handed to one, and the person at the window says don't worry, the coffee is not hot enough to hurt you if you spill it on your lap is one not most likely to complain that one only drinks hot coffee??? The world is becoming a wierd place. No one wants to assume any fault at all for their own actions. Accidents are unfortunate and sometimes people get hurt but very often it is their own fault. Should I sue the folks who built the stairs that I slipped on last week? I have only lived in that house for 31 years. I know those steps are narrower than I would like them to be and I need to be extra careful but I still managed to slip. Whose fault is that if not mine? Randy who is probably not a very typical lawyer On 28/11/2012 11:34 AM, andrew strasfogel wrote: I take serious issue with this mischaracterization as frivolous litigation. My ex spouse was seriously scalded (1st degree burns) by McD's hot coffee that spilled in her lap. This occurred 2+ minutes from purchase. The lawsuit and judgment were rightly deserved; as McDs had been warned many times about the hazards of their superheated brew. P.S. We never thought to litigate but can understand why someone else did. On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Tim C bb...@crone.us wrote: On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 8:46 PM, Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com wrote: You have to love this guy... http://www.torinfo.com/justforlaughs/coyote_v_acme.html We watched Hot Coffee last night. Ironically we started just as you were posting this. :) Hot Coffee is a better discussion for banned, but if you have never thought about binding arbitration or tort reform then it is worth watching. Best, Tim ___ ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
On 28/11/2012 12:59 PM, Tim C wrote: On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 12:48 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: BUT . . . . Would you buy coffee from a place that did not keep it hot? Do you not think that an adult knows or ought to know that hot coffee should not be spilled in one's lap? Do you not think that when one does spill hot coffee in one's lap, that one should assume the fault unless one is bumped or in some other manner caused by someone else to spill the coffee? Especially when it is in a drive through line. How is McD's supposed to prevent someone driving a car from spilling coffee once the cup is handed over? Do we put childproof caps on the cup so one cannot drink it in the car? It is questions like this that inspired the person to create the documentary. It not only covers the McDonald's coffee case but several others as well, with a larger eye to the political concept of tort reform. Binding arbitration was almost an afterthought, but I hadn't thought about it as much so it stuck out to me. Politics are US centric but obviously the concepts may be generally interesting. The filmmaker did interview the family of the woman who was injured, some graphics too if you're into that kind of thing. I knew going in that the press reports on the McDonald's coffee case were only loosely based on reality, but it's one thing to know that and another thing to hear about it from the woman's survivors. If the coffee is handed to one, and the person at the window says don't worry, the coffee is not hot enough to hurt you if you spill it on your lap is one not most likely to complain that one only drinks hot coffee??? I don't drink coffee, but if they hand me a cup of boiling Diet Coke it is definitely going back. :) The world is becoming a wierd place. No one wants to assume any fault at all for their own actions. Accidents are unfortunate and sometimes people get hurt but very often it is their own fault. In NC I would not expect her to have been awarded anything, even medical costs, because the jury found that she was 20% at fault. They didn't mention contributory negligence in the documentary, I'm not sure how many states are still set up that way. Should I sue the folks who built the stairs that I slipped on last week? I have only lived in that house for 31 years. I know those steps are narrower than I would like them to be and I need to be extra careful but I still managed to slip. Whose fault is that if not mine? Depends, how many people have slipped down your staircase in the past few months? Would you say there is something wrong with your staircase; maybe several of the boards are loose, or half the steps are missing? Let's say the biggest single source of accidents in the house is that staircase, you and your visitors have a history of hundreds of falls a month down the staircase, and you have never bothered to do anything about it even though you were completely aware of what was going on. Not sure the folks who built the staircase would be liable, but you might be (which, by the way, is obviously not the reality of your situation - hope you are feeling better :). Randy who is probably not a very typical lawyer Well, not a typical American lawyer at least... Best, -Tim is never happy to go to court and this is completely off topic, sorry One of the main differences here is the fact that you cannot have a jury trial for civil matters like this. Judges are not elected but are appointed by the political parties in power. They don't have to worry about being re-elected etc. So, there is much less chance that you are going to get a truly sympathetic judgment. I think, in the USA, there is more of a desire on the part of the jury to compensate people they see as the injured party and to penalize the bad company that they see as the one at fault and to nail the insurance company. Neither system is without fault. You get people who win silly cases for silly money and we get people who are denied a proper settlement in many cases. Randy ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
Randy wrote: Do you not think that when one does spill hot coffee in one's lap, that one should assume the fault unless one is bumped or in some other manner caused by someone else to spill the coffee? Especially when it is in a drive through line. How is McD's supposed to prevent someone driving a car from spilling coffee once the cup is handed over? Do we put childproof caps on the cup so one cannot drink it in the car? I wish everyone knew the REAL story of the McDonald's lawsuit. One of my colleagues here in Wichita was Stella's neighbor (the plaintiff in the McDonalds lawsuit) when this all occurred. He is currently a lawyer because of her story. NOT because the jury got it wrong, but because the real story is MUCH more compelling than the conventional wisdom suggests. The reality of that case is that Stella didn't want to go to court. She offered to settle with McDonald's for the cost of her medical expenses, but the company refused - even after a mediator suggested they should settle. Once in court, it was revealed that McDonald's deliberately kept its coffee 20 degrees hotter than industry standards and was aware from 700 prior incidents that this practice could result in severe burns. The company decided not to reduce its temperature and not to warn its customers of any risk. In the end, McDonald's behavior outraged jury members who were skeptical of the case. Even the judge, who reduced the jury verdict by more than 80% - called McDonald's conduct reckless, callous and willful. I read the deposition of the Senior VP who was in charge of the company policy on the coffee and the temperature it was kept at. He was the worst witness ever. He admitted that they had notice of severe burns, and admitted that they made a business decision to not change their policy. He came off as a complete jackass. The jury actually awarded 1 day's worth of coffee sales for McDonald's. AND it was later reduced dramatically. That case is not about a frivolous lawsuit. Its actually about a company that was aware that there product was dangerous, and they chose to keep selling it because they decided the customers that wanted it that hot were more important than the risk associated with the very small number of people who got hurt by their product. Donald H. Snook Who has not been keeping up the digests. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
Yep. :) Wilton - Original Message - From: Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 3:23 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again No, I will no doubt have to sue the builder for failure to post the proper warning signs too. Randy On 28/11/2012 12:06 PM, WILTON wrote: But, is there a sign posted in clear view near the stairs that clearly states in English and, maybe, French pour votre amis Quebecois, that, Negotiating stairs can be dangerous, use handrail, do not use stairs in stocking feet, do not run on stairs, etc.? :) Wilton - Original Message - From: Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again BUT . . . . Would you buy coffee from a place that did not keep it hot? Do you not think that an adult knows or ought to know that hot coffee should not be spilled in one's lap? Do you not think that when one does spill hot coffee in one's lap, that one should assume the fault unless one is bumped or in some other manner caused by someone else to spill the coffee? Especially when it is in a drive through line. How is McD's supposed to prevent someone driving a car from spilling coffee once the cup is handed over? Do we put childproof caps on the cup so one cannot drink it in the car? If the coffee is handed to one, and the person at the window says don't worry, the coffee is not hot enough to hurt you if you spill it on your lap is one not most likely to complain that one only drinks hot coffee??? The world is becoming a wierd place. No one wants to assume any fault at all for their own actions. Accidents are unfortunate and sometimes people get hurt but very often it is their own fault. Should I sue the folks who built the stairs that I slipped on last week? I have only lived in that house for 31 years. I know those steps are narrower than I would like them to be and I need to be extra careful but I still managed to slip. Whose fault is that if not mine? Randy who is probably not a very typical lawyer On 28/11/2012 11:34 AM, andrew strasfogel wrote: I take serious issue with this mischaracterization as frivolous litigation. My ex spouse was seriously scalded (1st degree burns) by McD's hot coffee that spilled in her lap. This occurred 2+ minutes from purchase. The lawsuit and judgment were rightly deserved; as McDs had been warned many times about the hazards of their superheated brew. P.S. We never thought to litigate but can understand why someone else did. On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Tim C bb...@crone.us wrote: On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 8:46 PM, Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com wrote: You have to love this guy... http://www.torinfo.com/justforlaughs/coyote_v_acme.html We watched Hot Coffee last night. Ironically we started just as you were posting this. :) Hot Coffee is a better discussion for banned, but if you have never thought about binding arbitration or tort reform then it is worth watching. Best, Tim ___ ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
Elected in Texas. Keeps them honest!!! One of our neighbors down the street was elected to the Texas Supreme Court, a black republican married to a white woman. He was a nice and fun guy, not what you would expect to be a Supreme Court justice. His wife was a total piece of work. --R On 11/28/12 3:30 PM, Randy Bennell wrote: One of the main differences here is the fact that you cannot have a jury trial for civil matters like this. Judges are not elected but are appointed by the political parties in power. They don't have to worry about being re-elected etc. So, there is much less chance that you are going to get a truly sympathetic judgment. I think, in the USA, there is more of a desire on the part of the jury to compensate people they see as the injured party and to penalize the bad company that they see as the one at fault and to nail the insurance company. Neither system is without fault. You get people who win silly cases for silly money and we get people who are denied a proper settlement in many cases. Randy ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
That would look good on the old resume! --R On 11/28/12 3:50 PM, Donald Snook wrote: Senior VP in charge of the company policy on the coffee and the temperature it was kept at ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
Randy wrote: Do you not think that when one does spill hot coffee in one's lap, that one should assume the fault unless one is bumped or in some other manner caused by someone else to spill the coffee? Especially when it is in a drive through line. How is McD's supposed to prevent someone driving a car from spilling coffee once the cup is handed over? Do we put childproof caps on the cup so one cannot drink it in the car? I wish everyone knew the REAL story of the McDonald's lawsuit. One of my colleagues here in Wichita was Stella's neighbor (the plaintiff in the McDonalds lawsuit) when this all occurred. He is currently a lawyer because of her story. NOT because the jury got it wrong, but because the real story is MUCH more compelling than the conventional wisdom suggests. The reality of that case is that Stella didn't want to go to court. She offered to settle with McDonald's for the cost of her medical expenses, but the company refused - even after a mediator suggested they should settle. Once in court, it was revealed that McDonald's deliberately kept its coffee 20 degrees hotter than industry standards and was aware from 700 prior incidents that this practice could result in severe burns. The company decided not to reduce its temperature and not to warn its customers of any risk. In the end, McDonald's behavior outraged jury members who were skeptical of the case. Even the judge, who reduced the jury verdict by more than 80% - called McDonald's conduct reckless, callous and willful. I read the deposition of the Senior VP who was in charge of the company policy on the coffee and the temperature it was kept at. He was the worst witness ever. He admitted that they had notice of severe burns, and admitted that they made a business decision to not change their policy. He came off as a complete jackass. The jury actually awarded 1 day's worth of coffee sales for McDonald's. AND it was later reduced dramatically. That case is not about a frivolous lawsuit. Its actually about a company that was aware that there product was dangerous, and they chose to keep selling it because they decided the customers that wanted it that hot were more important than the risk associated with the very small number of people who got hurt by their product. Donald H. Snook Who has not been keeping up the digests. .. I wonder why the judge reduced the award 80%? What are you driving now, Donald? Gerry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
On 28/11/2012 2:50 PM, Donald Snook wrote: Randy wrote: Do you not think that when one does spill hot coffee in one's lap, that one should assume the fault unless one is bumped or in some other manner caused by someone else to spill the coffee? Especially when it is in a drive through line. How is McD's supposed to prevent someone driving a car from spilling coffee once the cup is handed over? Do we put childproof caps on the cup so one cannot drink it in the car? I wish everyone knew the REAL story of the McDonald's lawsuit. One of my colleagues here in Wichita was Stella's neighbor (the plaintiff in the McDonalds lawsuit) when this all occurred. He is currently a lawyer because of her story. NOT because the jury got it wrong, but because the real story is MUCH more compelling than the conventional wisdom suggests. The reality of that case is that Stella didn't want to go to court. She offered to settle with McDonald's for the cost of her medical expenses, but the company refused - even after a mediator suggested they should settle. Once in court, it was revealed that McDonald's deliberately kept its coffee 20 degrees hotter than industry standards and was aware from 700 prior incidents that this practice could result in severe burns. The company decided not to reduce its temperature and not to warn its customers of any risk. In the end, McDonald's behavior outraged jury members who were skeptical of the case. Even the judge, who reduced the jury verdict by more than 80% - called McDonald's conduct reckless, callous and willful. I read the deposition of the Senior VP who was in charge of the company policy on the coffee and the temperature it was kept at. He was the worst witness ever. He admitted that they had notice of severe burns, and admitted that they made a business decision to not change their policy. He came off as a complete jackass. The jury actually awarded 1 day's worth of coffee sales for McDonald's. AND it was later reduced dramatically. That case is not about a frivolous lawsuit. Its actually about a company that was aware that there product was dangerous, and they chose to keep selling it because they decided the customers that wanted it that hot were more important than the risk associated with the very small number of people who got hurt by their product. Donald H. Snook Who has not been keeping up the digests. ___ Hey, Donald - there must be a case in this for you then. I quote Its actually about a company that was aware that there product was dangerous, and they chose to keep selling it Most of the food sold at McD's fits into the above description. Randy ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
Iirc McDonalds special orders their brewers with hot plate thermostats that are 20 degrees hotter than standard. I'm surprised that Bunn was not dragged in as a defendant for manufacturing a dangerous brewer... I want to say that the plate thermostats are 190-195 on the McD units... I defy anyone to drink it at that temperature. I also seem to recall that it was cost driven, as they figured their special brew would last longer at the higher temp than would otherwise be expected, thereby saving money in not having to dump out the urns and brew fresh as often. -- John W Reames jream...@verizon.net Home: +14106646986 Mobile: +14437915905 On Nov 28, 2012, at 12:34, andrew strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: I take serious issue with this mischaracterization as frivolous litigation. My ex spouse was seriously scalded (1st degree burns) by McD's hot coffee that spilled in her lap. This occurred 2+ minutes from purchase. The lawsuit and judgment were rightly deserved; as McDs had been warned many times about the hazards of their superheated brew. P.S. We never thought to litigate but can understand why someone else did. On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Tim C bb...@crone.us wrote: On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 8:46 PM, Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com wrote: You have to love this guy... http://www.torinfo.com/justforlaughs/coyote_v_acme.html We watched Hot Coffee last night. Ironically we started just as you were posting this. :) Hot Coffee is a better discussion for banned, but if you have never thought about binding arbitration or tort reform then it is worth watching. Best, Tim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
On Nov 28, 2012 7:27 PM, John Reames jwrea...@comcast.net wrote: I want to say that the plate thermostats are 190-195 on the McD units... The documentary said 190 was in the manual. I also got the idea that the arrogance of the guy from McDonalds hurt them severely. We have some elected and some appointed judges. Apparently the Chamber of Commerce has been spending millions in what have historically been low-budget judicial races, I thought that was an interesting tidbit. I have to admit I don't think juries are always giving appropriate awards, but I'm not sure a political hack of some particular bent would really do a lot better. (Or do now, since so many awards are cropped at the appeal.) Best, Tim Drove a Mercedes today, see that's on topic... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
Rich Thomas wrote: Elected in Texas. Keeps them honest!!! One of our neighbors down the street was elected to the Texas Supreme Court, a black republican married to a white woman. He was a nice and fun guy, not what you would expect to be a Supreme Court justice. His wife was a total piece of work. Sort of like John Conyers' wife? (Conyers isn't a bad guy for a black Detroit Democrat, but Monica is something else) http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2010/09/camp_cupcake_monica_conyers_he.html Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] Ian Frazier Does It Again
You have to love this guy... http://www.torinfo.com/justforlaughs/coyote_v_acme.html Dan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
