Re: [MBZ] OT: Hybrids vs. EVs - emissions comparison

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 22:23:24 + (UTC) Curt Raymond via Mercedes
 wrote:

>  Where the camshaft activates the injectors, like a Detroit diesel. VW
> used them for a little while, I think 2003 or 2004 until the common
> rail engines came out which I think is 2009 or 2010. They're hard on
> timing belts and don't get as good economy but are slightly more
> powerful, respond better to a tune and are more irritating to replace
> injectors on as the injector is under the valve cover. -Curt

Thank you.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Hybrids vs. EVs - emissions comparison

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 Where the camshaft activates the injectors, like a Detroit diesel. VW used 
them for a little while, I think 2003 or 2004 until the common rail engines 
came out which I think is 2009 or 2010.
They're hard on timing belts and don't get as good economy but are slightly 
more powerful, respond better to a tune and are more irritating to replace 
injectors on as the injector is under the valve cover.
-Curt

On Thursday, January 23, 2020, 2:54:15 PM EST, Craig via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 18:52:43 + (UTC) Curt Raymond via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Angie's '05 Golf has done a paltry 50mpg, the pump deuse engines just
> don't make the economy of the others.

"pump deuse engines" ?


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Hybrids vs. EVs - emissions comparison

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:10:54 -0600 Curley McLain via Mercedes
 wrote:

> I just heard that somebody put some 700+ HP crypsler engine into an IH 
> Scout.    Nuts!

They did indeed. They called it the "Hell Scout". Travelcenters of America
(one of the big truck stop chains) had a contest to give it to someone
recently.

I have the issues of the T/A magazine which featured it, but I don't have
time right now to take pictures of them.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Hybrids vs. EVs - emissions comparison

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 18:52:43 + (UTC) Curt Raymond via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Angie's '05 Golf has done a paltry 50mpg, the pump deuse engines just
> don't make the economy of the others.

"pump deuse engines" ?


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Hybrids vs. EVs - emissions comparison

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Perhaps, if you assume the diesel accumulates 1 million miles over 50 years.

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 2:09 PM OK Don via Mercedes 
wrote:

> Someone posted an article here last year that stated that a current MB
> Diesel had less emissions over it's life than an all electric car, a
> hybrid, or whatever.
>
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 12:08 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > I suspect a 400,000 mile Mercedes Diesel beats them all handily.   Or
> > even a 250k mile 240D probably would beat them.
> >
> > > Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
> > > January 23, 2020 at 11:48 AM
> > > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > So where do lithium free high MPG cars fit in?
> > > I would assume that if you could sell it today, a Sprint/Firefly/Metro
> > > with 3cyl/5sp would handily beat a Prius. (hey Randy, if you see a
> > > rust free Firefly, I'd like to make a mid engine 50mpg hot rod out of
> it)
> > >
> > > A Mercedes 250 diesel rivals or beats the Prius in anything but pure
> > > stoplight to stoplight driving, but the price tag is probably an
> > > indication of high energy in manufacture.
> > >
> > > __
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> >
> >
>
> --
> OK Don
>
> "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
> pause and reflect." Mark Twain
>
> "There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
> learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
> for themselves."
>
> WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
> 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Hybrids vs. EVs - emissions comparison

[OK Don via Mercedes]

Someone posted an article here last year that stated that a current MB
Diesel had less emissions over it's life than an all electric car, a
hybrid, or whatever.

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 12:08 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I suspect a 400,000 mile Mercedes Diesel beats them all handily.   Or
> even a 250k mile 240D probably would beat them.
>
> > Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
> > January 23, 2020 at 11:48 AM
> > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> >
> >
> > So where do lithium free high MPG cars fit in?
> > I would assume that if you could sell it today, a Sprint/Firefly/Metro
> > with 3cyl/5sp would handily beat a Prius. (hey Randy, if you see a
> > rust free Firefly, I'd like to make a mid engine 50mpg hot rod out of it)
> >
> > A Mercedes 250 diesel rivals or beats the Prius in anything but pure
> > stoplight to stoplight driving, but the price tag is probably an
> > indication of high energy in manufacture.
> >
> > __
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
>

-- 
OK Don

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
pause and reflect." Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Hybrids vs. EVs - emissions comparison

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 23/01/2020 11:48 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

A new study finds that hybrids like the Toyota Prius Prime (pictured) 
have

lower cradle-to-grave emissions than electric vehicles Wikimedia
Commons/Mariordo


So where do lithium free high MPG cars fit in?
I would assume that if you could sell it today, a Sprint/Firefly/Metro 
with 3cyl/5sp would handily beat a Prius. (hey Randy, if you see a 
rust free Firefly, I'd like to make a mid engine 50mpg hot rod out of it)


A Mercedes 250 diesel rivals or beats the Prius in anything but pure 
stoplight to stoplight driving, but the price tag is probably an 
indication of high energy in manufacture.


___ 


My mechanic brother-in-law worked at a shop that created an early 
Hyundai Pony into a hot rod with a 455 Olds engine. If I recall 
correctly, they set the engine back and removed the front seats and the 
driver sat on the rear seat. I don't think it had a firewall.


Purely a toy they played with. It was junk.

RB


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Hybrids vs. EVs - emissions comparison

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 For mileage? Unlikely. The best I ever saw from a 240D was 32mpg. Average over 
150,000 miles of driving 240Ds for me was more like 28mpg.
My '98 Jetta maxed at 56mpg, I think I've had the '15 up to 58 or so. In all 
cases thats never going over 65mph, sometimes not going over 55.
Angie's '05 Golf has done a paltry 50mpg, the pump deuse engines just don't 
make the economy of the others.
Any of those VWs will accelerate faster than a 240D, which is understating how 
much faster they are. They'll out handle a 240D and start way better in the 
cold than any 61x engine. The 2015 especially is amazing in the cold.
240D is a lovely car in a lot of respects but not from a fuel economy 
perspective its outclassed by basically any sedan its size or smaller made in 
the last 15 years.
-Curt

On Thursday, January 23, 2020, 1:08:38 PM EST, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 I suspect a 400,000 mile Mercedes Diesel beats them all handily.   Or 
even a 250k mile 240D probably would beat them.

> Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
> January 23, 2020 at 11:48 AM
> Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
>
>
> So where do lithium free high MPG cars fit in?
> I would assume that if you could sell it today, a Sprint/Firefly/Metro 
> with 3cyl/5sp would handily beat a Prius. (hey Randy, if you see a 
> rust free Firefly, I'd like to make a mid engine 50mpg hot rod out of it)
>
> A Mercedes 250 diesel rivals or beats the Prius in anything but pure 
> stoplight to stoplight driving, but the price tag is probably an 
> indication of high energy in manufacture.
>
> __

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Hybrids vs. EVs - emissions comparison

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

Randy Bennell via Mercedes wrote:
My mechanic brother-in-law worked at a shop that created an early 
Hyundai Pony into a hot rod with a 455 Olds engine. If I recall 
correctly, they set the engine back and removed the front seats and the 
driver sat on the rear seat. I don't think it had a firewall.


Purely a toy they played with. It was junk.



In the 1970s-Early 1980s, it was semi common to see a 2 seater Vega Kammback 
with a Toronado 455 drivetrain in place of the back seat. I heard they were 
junk, but went really fast in a straight line.


I found this on BAT, with I assume awful weight distribution, like a SWB pickup 
with a big block engine.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1987-pontiac-firefly/

My dream Firefly is more like a R5 Turbo, but with a modern engine, sub 2000lb 
weight, and 50mpg. GM did wonders with light weight and efficiency when they 
designed the LE2 engine and 6T35 transaxle. I'd basically shove a 2016-2019 
Cruze cradle and drivetrain into the back of the Firefly and put bigger 
brakes/hubs in the front of the car.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1985-renault-r5-turbo-2-3/

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Hybrids vs. EVs - emissions comparison

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

I just heard that somebody put some 700+ HP crypsler engine into an IH 
Scout.    Nuts!



Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
January 23, 2020 at 12:06 PM


My mechanic brother-in-law worked at a shop that created an early 
Hyundai Pony into a hot rod with a 455 Olds engine. If I recall 
correctly, they set the engine back and removed the front seats and 
the driver sat on the rear seat. I don't think it had a firewall.


Purely a toy they played with. It was junk.

RB



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Re: [MBZ] OT: Hybrids vs. EVs - emissions comparison

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

I suspect a 400,000 mile Mercedes Diesel beats them all handily.   Or 
even a 250k mile 240D probably would beat them.



Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
January 23, 2020 at 11:48 AM
Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:


So where do lithium free high MPG cars fit in?
I would assume that if you could sell it today, a Sprint/Firefly/Metro 
with 3cyl/5sp would handily beat a Prius. (hey Randy, if you see a 
rust free Firefly, I'd like to make a mid engine 50mpg hot rod out of it)


A Mercedes 250 diesel rivals or beats the Prius in anything but pure 
stoplight to stoplight driving, but the price tag is probably an 
indication of high energy in manufacture.


__


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Hybrids vs. EVs - emissions comparison

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:


A new study finds that hybrids like the Toyota Prius Prime (pictured) have
lower cradle-to-grave emissions than electric vehicles Wikimedia
Commons/Mariordo


So where do lithium free high MPG cars fit in?
I would assume that if you could sell it today, a Sprint/Firefly/Metro with 
3cyl/5sp would handily beat a Prius. (hey Randy, if you see a rust free Firefly, 
I'd like to make a mid engine 50mpg hot rod out of it)


A Mercedes 250 diesel rivals or beats the Prius in anything but pure stoplight 
to stoplight driving, but the price tag is probably an indication of high energy 
in manufacture.


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[MBZ] OT: Hybrids vs. EVs - emissions comparison

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Interesting analysis - touches on themes we have discussed here.

ELECTRIC VEHICLESCleanest hybrids beat EVs on emissions — study


Published: Thursday, January 23, 2020[image: Prius. Photo credit: Wikimedia
Commons/Mariordo]

A new study finds that hybrids like the Toyota Prius Prime (pictured) have
lower cradle-to-grave emissions than electric vehicles Wikimedia
Commons/Mariordo

Hybrids largely beat out all-electrics in a new ranking of the most
"environmentally friendly" cars, even as some automakers signal a turn away
from hybrids for the future of their business.

The scorecard, published yesterday by the American Council for an
Energy-Efficient Economy (ACEEE), found that of the 12 cars that produced
the least greenhouse gas emissions, nine of them were hybrids, compared to
three all-electric models. Hybrids also constituted four of the top five
vehicles on the list.

Eric Junga, a senior research analyst for transportation at ACEEE,
attributed that to improvements in hybrids' efficiency.

"They've really pushed their fuel economy up quite a bit," he said.

Junga and other analysts at the group considered emissions stemming from a
vehicle's operation as well as "embodied" emissions, or those involved in
manufacture and disposal. They assumed that each car would be driven for
200,000 miles over its lifetime. And they based their findings on a
nationwide average of emissions from the power grid, meaning the rankings
might not hold in a state with a significantly cleaner grid.

"If you put in a California ZIP code" into the group's emissions calculator
tool, said Junga, "you'll find that EVs are far above" hybrids in terms of
their environmental profile.

But the group also found that as some automakers extended the range of
all-electric models, emissions associated with the battery rose, causing
those models to slump in the ratings. The Hyundai Ioniq Electric, for
instance, fell from first place in last year's scorecard to fourth in 2020
because of its enlarged battery. And the Kia Soul EV, ranked fifth last
year, slipped off the list entirely.

"At some point, once EVs really become mainstream, we're going to have to
keep an eye on this, and demand that automakers and battery manufacturers
minimize the emissions associated with batteries," said Junga.

ACEEE produces the scorecards on an annual basis, largely as an aid to
consumers interested in buying a car with a low environmental impact. Its
board of directors includes presidents of two major investor-owned
utilities, state and city officials, and energy consultants and analysts.

Three of the top 12 cars were plug-in hybrids, and six were hybrids that
didn't involve manual charging by the driver.

The top-performing car was the Toyota Prius Prime, a vehicle that was left
off of last year's scorecard because of lack of data. One model that
typically makes the list, the Nissan Leaf, wasn't considered, since updated
data wasn't available in time. And none of Tesla's cars made the cut, in
part because of the size of their batteries.

Tesla and Kia did not respond to a request for comment by press time.

The 2020 analysis comes at a time when some corners of the auto industry
are shifting their attention away from hybrids and toward pure electrics.
Last summer, General Motors and Volkswagen said they would stop introducing
new hybrids.

But Junga noted that the quantity of hybrids considered for ACEEE's
scorecard had risen over last year.

"I don't think there's an agreed-upon outlook about what the future is
going to look like," he said.
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