[MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Dieselhead]

Alles:

I need a source for a  25 Amp 110 volt AC (input) variable linear DC 
voltage control.


A listing of components to build one would be ok too.

Could I build such a thing out of one of the variacs I have with a 
full wave bridge rectifier?  What else might be needed for this 
approach?


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Craig]

On Tue, 27 Mar 2012 22:27:34 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Alles:
> 
> I need a source for a  25 Amp 110 volt AC (input) variable linear DC 
> voltage control.
> 
> A listing of components to build one would be ok too.
> 
> Could I build such a thing out of one of the variacs I have with a 
> full wave bridge rectifier?  What else might be needed for this 
> approach?

It depends on what quality of DC power you need and how you are going to
use it.

If you don't mind the DC not being grounded, are careful with isolation
of the output to ground, and don't want accurate regulation, all you need
is a full wave bridge rectifier and a big hairy capacitor, BHC (tm). You
will need to be careful you don't exceed the voltage rating of the
capacitor.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[OK Don]

>
> You will need to be careful you don't exceed the voltage rating of the
> capacitor.
>
>
> Craig


I can vouch for that! My first transmitter's power amp was fed 500 volts.
All I had in the junk box was a pair 450 volt capacitors, so I figured it
would have suffienct of a margin of error built in. It worked for about six
months, then one cap went bang - blew the bottom out and released a LOT of
smoke. Needless to say, I wasn't able to complete that conversation (CW, 80
meters).

-- 
OK Don KD5NRO
2001 ML320
1992 300D 2.5T
1990 300D 2.5T
1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Craig]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 10:35:01 -0500 OK Don  wrote:

> I can vouch for that! My first transmitter's power amp was fed 500
> volts. All I had in the junk box was a pair 450 volt capacitors, so I
> figured it would have suffienct of a margin of error built in.

Usually, you want to derate the capacitor and not run it at its voltage
rating. For commercial equipment, you want to run it at 80% of its
rating. For military, 50%.


> It worked for about six months, then one cap went bang - blew the bottom
> out and released a LOT of smoke.

Once again proving that electronics really runs on smoke. If you let the
smoke out, the electronics stops working.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Dieselhead]

I am not sure of the specs needed.  I have been trying to find out. 
The application is a bench scale electrocoagulation unit.


These are too small:
www.testequipmentconnection.com/tecspecs/Agilent-HP_E3610A.PDF

Here is a paper that explains the process.  The DC power supply is 
described in 2.1 on page 4066:

44.206.159.178/ft/1092/72646/1241702.pdf

TIA for any and all assistance



On Tue, 27 Mar 2012 22:27:34 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:


 Alles:

 I need a source for a  25 Amp 110 volt AC (input) variable linear DC
 voltage control.

 A listing of components to build one would be ok too.

 Could I build such a thing out of one of the variacs I have with a
 full wave bridge rectifier?  What else might be needed for this
 approach?


It depends on what quality of DC power you need and how you are going to
use it.

If you don't mind the DC not being grounded, are careful with isolation
of the output to ground, and don't want accurate regulation, all you need
is a full wave bridge rectifier and a big hairy capacitor, BHC (tm). You
will need to be careful you don't exceed the voltage rating of the
capacitor.

Craig


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Craig]

On Fri, 6 Apr 2012 21:38:08 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am not sure of the specs needed.  I have been trying to find out. 
> The application is a bench scale electrocoagulation unit.

Sounds like it might prefer fairly good quality DC.


> These are too small:
> www.testequipmentconnection.com/tecspecs/Agilent-HP_E3610A.PDF
> 
> Here is a paper that explains the process.  The DC power supply is 
> described in 2.1 on page 4066:
> 44.206.159.178/ft/1092/72646/1241702.pdf

That URL doesn't load for me. Perhaps you can copy and paste?


> TIA for any and all assistance

I'll try ...


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Dieselhead]

The 1 got cut off the front.  Try this:
144.206.159.178/ft/1092/72646/1241702.pdf



On Fri, 6 Apr 2012 21:38:08 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:


 I am not sure of the specs needed.  I have been trying to find out.
 The application is a bench scale electrocoagulation unit.


Sounds like it might prefer fairly good quality DC.



 These are too small:
 www.testequipmentconnection.com/tecspecs/Agilent-HP_E3610A.PDF

 Here is a paper that explains the process.  The DC power supply is
 described in 2.1 on page 4066:
 44.206.159.178/ft/1092/72646/1241702.pdf


That URL doesn't load for me. Perhaps you can copy and paste?



 TIA for any and all assistance


I'll try ...


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Craig]

On Fri, 6 Apr 2012 22:31:04 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The 1 got cut off the front.  Try this:
> 144.206.159.178/ft/1092/72646/1241702.pdf

Yup, that works much better.


> The DC power supply is described in 2.1 on page 4066:

>From that page, the appropriate description is:


> The laboratory test system consisted of an electrocoagulator unit with
> a 500W (70 V/30 A) DC power supply (Wayne Kerr Electronics Ltd., Model
> AP7030),

Besides the fact that 70 V x 30 A is not 500 W, there doesn't seem to be
much required of the power supply. The variac, bridge rectifier, and BHC
will do the job just fine. Just don't forget that both output leads of
the setup will be hot with respect to ground.

I would use iron electrodes, not aluminum, since aluminum has been
implicated in Alzheimers. (And then there is table salt that has aluminum
in it and baking powder that has aluminum in it, but don't get me started
on those.)


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Dieselhead]

Does 3500 Microfarad count as BHC?

I can buy one on fleabay for $10 or 3 for $20.  I was thinking maybe 
buying 3 and using as many as needed.


I found 50 Amp bridge rectifiers.  I figured I could use 2 in 
parallel to be able to pass 50 to 70 amps.


So wire the variac to the rectifiers, (AC side) then hang the BHC 
across the DC side of the rectifiers.  Is that right?(DC to the 
iron cathode and anode.)


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Dan Penoff]

If you are making a simple variable DC power supply, yes.

Dan

Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>Does 3500 Microfarad count as BHC?
>
>I can buy one on fleabay for $10 or 3 for $20.  I was thinking maybe 
>buying 3 and using as many as needed.
>
>I found 50 Amp bridge rectifiers.  I figured I could use 2 in 
>parallel to be able to pass 50 to 70 amps.
>
>So wire the variac to the rectifiers, (AC side) then hang the BHC 
>across the DC side of the rectifiers.  Is that right?(DC to the 
>iron cathode and anode.)
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Craig]

On Sat, 7 Apr 2012 23:29:06 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> Does 3500 Microfarad count as BHC?

Yes. WHAT VOLTAGE RATING?


> I can buy one on fleabay for $10 or 3 for $20.  I was thinking maybe 
> buying 3 and using as many as needed.


> I found 50 Amp bridge rectifiers.  I figured I could use 2 in 
> parallel to be able to pass 50 to 70 amps.

Paralleling rectifiers can be tricky and is not recommended (you can
easily get thermal run-away, where one bridge is taking all the current).
The original article said 70 V and 30 A. I'd use just one. You will need
to make sure the rectifier has a good heat sink -- at 30 A, you will be
dissipating roughly 60 W in the bridge and want to keep the bridge's
temperature below 70 deg.C. or so.


> So wire the variac to the rectifiers, (AC side) then hang the BHC 
> across the DC side of the rectifiers.  Is that right?(DC to the 
> iron cathode and anode.)

Yes, that is correct. Just remember both output leads will be hot with
respect to ground.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Dieselhead]

Sorry! It is 450V rated


On Sat, 7 Apr 2012 23:29:06 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:



 Does 3500 Microfarad count as BHC?


Yes. WHAT VOLTAGE RATING?



 I can buy one on fleabay for $10 or 3 for $20.  I was thinking maybe
 buying 3 and using as many as needed.




 I found 50 Amp bridge rectifiers.  I figured I could use 2 in
 parallel to be able to pass 50 to 70 amps.


Paralleling rectifiers can be tricky and is not recommended (you can
easily get thermal run-away, where one bridge is taking all the current).
The original article said 70 V and 30 A. I'd use just one. You will need
to make sure the rectifier has a good heat sink -- at 30 A, you will be
dissipating roughly 60 W in the bridge and want to keep the bridge's
temperature below 70 deg.C. or so.



 So wire the variac to the rectifiers, (AC side) then hang the BHC
 across the DC side of the rectifiers.  Is that right?(DC to the
 iron cathode and anode.)


Yes, that is correct. Just remember both output leads will be hot with
respect to ground.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Fmiser]

> Dieselhead wrote:

> I found 50 Amp bridge rectifiers.  I figured I could use 2 in 
> parallel to be able to pass 50 to 70 amps.

Nope.  Not unless you have two transformers.  Each diode will
have a _slightly_ different turn-on voltage, so the one that's a
touch lower will hog all the current and the other one will not
do much of anything.

You can build your own bridge out of four individual diodes.

> So wire the variac to the rectifiers, (AC side) then hang the
> BHC across the DC side of the rectifiers.  Is that right?
> (DC to the iron cathode and anode.)

If it were me, I would wire a high value resistor across the
capacitor to dissipate the change so that after 10 or 15 minutes
the "hairy" is gone from your BHC. 

--   Philip

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Craig]

On Sun, 8 Apr 2012 08:38:36 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry! It is 450V rated

That's quite enough.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Craig]

On Sun, 8 Apr 2012 12:47:27 -0500 Fmiser  wrote:

> If it were me, I would wire a high value resistor across the
> capacitor to dissipate the change so that after 10 or 15 minutes
> the "hairy" is gone from your BHC.

This is a good idea. Each capacitor will hold about 48 Joules of energy
when the variac outputs 120 VAC. You will want to check things with a
voltmeter before you handle the connections after a run.

If you run less than 120 VDC output, a 25 W lightbulb will make a dandy
bleeder resistor. Just wire one or two across the capacitor bank. One
will give you a time constant of 6 seconds; two will give a time constant
of 3 seconds. Five time constants (15 - 30 s) will drop the voltage
across the capacitor bank to close to zero.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Dieselhead]

 > Dieselhead wrote:


 I found 50 Amp bridge rectifiers.  I figured I could use 2 in
 parallel to be able to pass 50 to 70 amps.


Nope.  Not unless you have two transformers.  Each diode will
have a _slightly_ different turn-on voltage, so the one that's a
touch lower will hog all the current and the other one will not
do much of anything.

You can build your own bridge out of four individual diodes.


 So wire the variac to the rectifiers, (AC side) then hang the
 BHC across the DC side of the rectifiers.  Is that right?
 (DC to the iron cathode and anode.)


If it were me, I would wire a high value resistor across the
capacitor to dissipate the change so that after 10 or 15 minutes
the "hairy" is gone from your BHC.

--   Philip

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Dieselhead]

Good idea, but it might take some of the "fun" out of the demo!




If it were me, I would wire a high value resistor across the
capacitor to dissipate the change so that after 10 or 15 minutes
the "hairy" is gone from your BHC.

--   Philip



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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Dieselhead]

What would the specs of the diodes need to be to pass up to 25 amps@ 
up to 120 V?  Each rated for 25 Amp or more?


It just seemed easier to buy a rectifier than to build one.  But to 
get 25 amp, I may need to build.



Thanks Philip and Craig for helping me out with this demo unit.




You can build your own bridge out of four individual diodes.



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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Fmiser]

> Dieselhead wrote:

> What would the specs of the diodes need to be to pass up to 25
> amps@ up to 120 V?  Each rated for 25 Amp or more?

Each diode carries the full current, but only half the time.  So
if it is going to have 25 A continuous through it, I would look
for a 30-35 A diode rated for at least 200 V (120 V-RMS is 170 V
peak).

> It just seemed easier to buy a rectifier than to build one.
> But to get 25 amp, I may need to build.

It's easy to build.  Four diodes is all it takes.  Here is a link
to a diagram for a bridge rectifier.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diode_bridge_smoothing.svg

That diagram is the article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode_bridge

The advantage to a pre-built bridge is it's easier to wire.  And
occasionally it's cheaper.

As Craig said, there will be a fair amount of heat from these
diodes, so be sure to mount them in a way to dissipate that heat.

--   Philip

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Craig]

On Sun, 8 Apr 2012 22:36:10 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

> What would the specs of the diodes need to be to pass up to 25 amps@ 
> up to 120 V?  Each rated for 25 Amp or more?
> 
> It just seemed easier to buy a rectifier than to build one.  But to 
> get 25 amp, I may need to build.

Get a pre-packaged bridge rectifier. They usually are square, have four
terminals, and have a metal pad with a hole through it for bolting to a
heat sink.

You should get a bridge with at least a 400 V rating (the capacitor will
store 120*sqrt(2) DC and the reversed diode will see the line go opposite
polarity, for a total of 2*120*sqrt(2) ).

Buy, don't build. If you'd like I can search for a source of the right
kind of thing tomorrow.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Dieselhead]

50 A 1000 Volt rated should work then.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/110735275271?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649#ht_1380wt_702

ebay Item number: 110735275271


I can mount an old computer heat sink to the top of the case.

Now if I can find a couple of panel voltmeters and a DC ammeter, I 
should have a linear rectifier as good as the one in the $8000 kit.




On Sun, 8 Apr 2012 22:36:10 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:


 What would the specs of the diodes need to be to pass up to 25 amps@
 up to 120 V?  Each rated for 25 Amp or more?

 It just seemed easier to buy a rectifier than to build one.  But to
 get 25 amp, I may need to build.


Get a pre-packaged bridge rectifier. They usually are square, have four
terminals, and have a metal pad with a hole through it for bolting to a
heat sink.

You should get a bridge with at least a 400 V rating (the capacitor will
store 120*sqrt(2) DC and the reversed diode will see the line go opposite
polarity, for a total of 2*120*sqrt(2) ).

Buy, don't build. If you'd like I can search for a source of the right
kind of thing tomorrow.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Craig]

On Mon, 9 Apr 2012 08:15:24 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 50 A 1000 Volt rated should work then.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/110735275271?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649#ht_1380wt_702
> 
> ebay Item number: 110735275271

Yes, that is what I was describing.


> I can mount an old computer heat sink to the top of the case.

It will have to be a fairly big heatsink (or else have a fan for forced
air cooling). You want something that has a thermal resistance of
1 deg.C./Watt or less.


> Now if I can find a couple of panel voltmeters and a DC ammeter, I 
> should have a linear rectifier as good as the one in the $8000 kit.

Only yours won't be regulated. If your line voltage changes, your DC out
will change, too.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Source for electronic rectifier control

[Dieselhead]

It just occurred to me that the everything I needed should have been 
in the APC 650 UPSs I recently pitched.  Including the heat sink. 
too bad I can't modify one of them to work.


The hoarders lament:  As soon as I DO pitch something, I soon will 
need it.  Some corollary to Murphy in there...  If you keep it you 
won't need it, if you pitch it, you will soon have a need for it.




On Mon, 9 Apr 2012 08:15:24 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:


 50 A 1000 Volt rated should work then.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/110735275271?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649#ht_1380wt_702

 ebay Item number: 110735275271


Yes, that is what I was describing.



 I can mount an old computer heat sink to the top of the case.


It will have to be a fairly big heatsink (or else have a fan for forced
air cooling). You want something that has a thermal resistance of
1 deg.C./Watt or less.



 Now if I can find a couple of panel voltmeters and a DC ammeter, I
 should have a linear rectifier as good as the one in the $8000 kit.


Only yours won't be regulated. If your line voltage changes, your DC out
will change, too.


Craig

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