Re: [MBZ] OT Boeing 737 Max 8 info
AMEN! Software strikes again. Peter Frederick via Mercedes wrote on 3/16/19 9:23 AM: I'm no aircraft engineer, but in my experience in other things, this is strictly a software/sensor issue. Most aircraft have a stall prevention system, and any aircraft prone to "unrecoverable" stalls like T-tail rear engine jets have one that will overpower the pilot. However, every pilot must be trained to disable that system if it gives false warnings, and since the 737 has been flown nearly countless hours and is a very well proven airframe, it's gotta be the software. ILong past time to stop pasting upgrades on a 1956 airframe, I think.. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT Boeing 737 Max 8 info
I'm no aircraft engineer, but in my experience in other things, this is strictly a software/sensor issue. Most aircraft have a stall prevention system, and any aircraft prone to "unrecoverable" stalls like T-tail rear engine jets have one that will overpower the pilot. However, every pilot must be trained to disable that system if it gives false warnings, and since the 737 has been flown nearly countless hours and is a very well proven airframe, it's gotta be the software. ILong past time to stop pasting upgrades on a 1956 airframe, I think.. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT Boeing 737 Max 8 info
Heard this a.m. that they recovered the jack screw from the horizontal tail and it was trimmed to pitch the nose down. I don't agree with Grant that it is reasonable for pilots to know everything about their jet. In my experience, commercial pilots know the least, military pilots know nearly everything in the flight manual, and test pilots know a great deal more. But nobody really knows everything in the software. I recall an incident about 30 years ago where an F-16 began an uncommanded pitch oscillation (about +3g to -1g) for 10-20 secs that began during aggressive maneuvering. This oscillation stopped as suddenly and mysteriously as it began. That F-16 had a quad redundant digital flight control system and sensors and no faults were indicated. That means that all computers agreed on every calculation and the air data sensors agreed on every measurement throughout the anomaly. As far as I know, the cause was never found. I don't condemn all digital flight controls. I have seen F-16s land safely with entire control surfaces (rudder, aileron, one slab) gone. But risk tolerance in an ejection-seat jet can be a lot higher than a commercial airliner. Scott > -Original Message- > From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Andrew > Strasfogel via Mercedes > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2019 11:51 AM > To: Mercedes Discussion List > Cc: Andrew Strasfogel > Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Boeing 737 Max 8 info > > Big nagging question in my mind - how do they replicate the failure when > testing? > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT Boeing 737 Max 8 info
You forgot the president of the Senate. 546. -- Jim > On Mar 13, 2019, at 10:02 AM, Craig via Mercedes > wrote: > > On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 11:34:43 -0500 Curley McLain via Mercedes > wrote: > >> Out of 546 goobers, there are only about a dozen or maybe 2 that have >> half a brain. (or more) >> >> 435 >> 100 >> robed maggots >> commander in chief >> __ >> 546 > > 435 + 100 + 9 + 1 = 545 > > > Craig > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT Boeing 737 Max 8 info
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 11:34:43 -0500 Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote: > Out of 546 goobers, there are only about a dozen or maybe 2 that have > half a brain. (or more) > > 435 > 100 > robed maggots > commander in chief > __ > 546 435 + 100 + 9 + 1 = 545 Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT Boeing 737 Max 8 info
Out of 546 goobers, there are only about a dozen or maybe 2 that have half a brain. (or more) 435 100 robed maggots commander in chief __ 546 Floyd Thursby via Mercedes wrote on 3/13/19 11:06 AM: The idiot senator from Connecticut, Blumenthal, was on NPR yesterday evening bloviating complete nonsense about the issue. It is amazing that we have such ignorant idiots elected to "represent" us. It was a new low, even for NPR, to give this guy the air time. --FT ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT Boeing 737 Max 8 info
--FT wrote: > ...It is amazing that we have such ignorant idiots elected to "represent" us. Why waste time listening to ANY media - move along, nothing to see there. Reality is not mental. tin ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT Boeing 737 Max 8 info
The idiot senator from Connecticut, Blumenthal, was on NPR yesterday evening bloviating complete nonsense about the issue. It is amazing that we have such ignorant idiots elected to "represent" us. It was a new low, even for NPR, to give this guy the air time. --FT On 3/13/19 11:57 AM, Mountain Man via Mercedes wrote: Peter wrote: Sounds more like the "handshake behind the barn" days... Ahh... those were the days, my friend, we thought they'd never end. Those days are what make america great. again? We complain too many people on the planet, we complain about pollution and water and warming. Lose some people? - there's more. It might be an interesting analysis - how many MAX crashes would allow parity with population growth each day. No... not a realistic endeavor, but... travel is inherently dangerous, so... put yer big boy pants on and do what you need to do. Government and regulation? - we really want more of that all in the name of safety? These are big-boy companies that make airplanes, etc. They can manage without regulation or they lose business. How many okiebenz people are gone because of airplane crash? or car crash? Totally trivial numbers, but still sad, wrong, etc. tin ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- --FT ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT Boeing 737 Max 8 info
If they get the flight data recorder it will have all kinds of settings and parameters recorded from which the engineers should be able to understand exactly what the airplane and pilots were doing. They can then run that through the simulators and see exactly what might have caused the problem. --FT On 3/13/19 11:51 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote: Big nagging question in my mind - how do they replicate the failure when testing? On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 8:03 AM Peter Frederick via Mercedes < mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote: The difficulty is that a single point failure (flaky attitude sensor in this case) causes an un-needed actuation and severe nose down pitch without warning the pilots, who are well aware of what the plane is doing. Having the "stick" snatched out of your hands by the computer without warning is a bad thing. The old stall warning on the 727 shook the stick a couple times before it forced it forward, along with a horn and the annoucement "stall". This system just rams the stick down. Nothing wrong with the idea, but the implementation is horrible, and not putting it in the training OR the flight manual is just flat criminal. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- --FT ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT Boeing 737 Max 8 info
Peter wrote: > Sounds more like the "handshake behind the barn" days... Ahh... those were the days, my friend, we thought they'd never end. Those days are what make america great. again? We complain too many people on the planet, we complain about pollution and water and warming. Lose some people? - there's more. It might be an interesting analysis - how many MAX crashes would allow parity with population growth each day. No... not a realistic endeavor, but... travel is inherently dangerous, so... put yer big boy pants on and do what you need to do. Government and regulation? - we really want more of that all in the name of safety? These are big-boy companies that make airplanes, etc. They can manage without regulation or they lose business. How many okiebenz people are gone because of airplane crash? or car crash? Totally trivial numbers, but still sad, wrong, etc. tin ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT Boeing 737 Max 8 info
Big nagging question in my mind - how do they replicate the failure when testing? On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 8:03 AM Peter Frederick via Mercedes < mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote: > The difficulty is that a single point failure (flaky attitude sensor in > this case) causes an un-needed actuation and severe nose down pitch without > warning the pilots, who are well aware of what the plane is doing. > > Having the "stick" snatched out of your hands by the computer without > warning is a bad thing. > > The old stall warning on the 727 shook the stick a couple times before it > forced it forward, along with a horn and the annoucement "stall". This > system just rams the stick down. > > Nothing wrong with the idea, but the implementation is horrible, and not > putting it in the training OR the flight manual is just flat criminal. > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT Boeing 737 Max 8 info
The difficulty is that a single point failure (flaky attitude sensor in this case) causes an un-needed actuation and severe nose down pitch without warning the pilots, who are well aware of what the plane is doing. Having the "stick" snatched out of your hands by the computer without warning is a bad thing. The old stall warning on the 727 shook the stick a couple times before it forced it forward, along with a horn and the annoucement "stall". This system just rams the stick down. Nothing wrong with the idea, but the implementation is horrible, and not putting it in the training OR the flight manual is just flat criminal. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT Boeing 737 Max 8 info
But, I read that this system was designed to avoid stall on takeoff which is not a good thing either. In fact it might have been in your earlier post. The new engines and the placement on the wing causes it to perform differently than previous 737s. Disable or leave it on. Darned if you do or don't?Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A Original message From: Peter Frederick via Mercedes Date: 2019-03-12 8:44 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Mercedes Discussion List Cc: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Boeing 737 Max 8 info Sounds more like the "handshake behind the barn" days in the early 70's that resulted in a DC-10 door blowout and the loss of a plane load of passengersSecret agreements and sweeping issues under the rug in airliner safety results in dead passengers, always a bad idea.If there is something seriously amiss with the "new smarter than the pilot" system, it needs to be disabled at once, very publicly, and fixed permanently as soon as possible. Fixing it on the sly without the NTSB or anyone else knowing about it simply means it will happen to someone else who didn't get in on the behind the barn discussion with the result being a plane flying into the ground out of control. Not acceptable, period.I guess we have a new generation that doesn't remember the mistakes of the past!___http://www.okiebenz.comTo search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT Boeing 737 Max 8 info
Sounds more like the "handshake behind the barn" days in the early 70's that resulted in a DC-10 door blowout and the loss of a plane load of passengers. Secret agreements and sweeping issues under the rug in airliner safety results in dead passengers, always a bad idea. If there is something seriously amiss with the "new smarter than the pilot" system, it needs to be disabled at once, very publicly, and fixed permanently as soon as possible. Fixing it on the sly without the NTSB or anyone else knowing about it simply means it will happen to someone else who didn't get in on the behind the barn discussion with the result being a plane flying into the ground out of control. Not acceptable, period. I guess we have a new generation that doesn't remember the mistakes of the past! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT Boeing 737 Max 8 info
On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 20:09:59 -0400 Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote: > Looks like Boeing was slow on the uptake to fix the problem. > > https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2019/03/12/boeing-737-max-8-pilots-complained-feds-months-suspected-safety-flaw Can you spell "class-action suit"? At the bottom, the dallasnews page says, If you already have a ticket, you should be able to tell from the booking details. If you are making a booking online, many sites indicate the model. If not, websites such as http://flightstats.com allow you to dig into details of flights at least a few days in advance, including the make and type. I expect a spike in their Internet traffic ... Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] OT Boeing 737 Max 8 info
Looks like Boeing was slow on the uptake to fix the problem. https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2019/03/12/boeing-737-max-8-pilots-complained-feds-months-suspected-safety-flaw - Max Charleston SC ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT Boeing
unions are criminal organizations meant to foster socialist agendas clay On Dec 9, 2009, at 10:18 AM, Rich Thomas wrote: Interesting news on the new Boeing plant going in here. --R http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2009/dec/09/sc-may-benefit-from-supplier-plan/ ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT Boeing
Rich Thomas wrote: Interesting news on the new Boeing plant going in here. --R http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2009/dec/09/sc-may-benefit-from-supplier-plan/ So, the labor unions committed career suicide? Reminds me of the union shop I worked in the summer I was 18. The guys I worked with complained that they were inefficiently putting out crap, but didn't seem inclined to actually work harder, and I got leaned on a bit because I was putting out good parts too quickly until I slowed down. It was almost as bad as the Brit factory stories of the 1970's, the only thing missing was deliberate sabotage. (I guess it was more like the Soviet Union than England, nobody cared to do any more than they absolutely had to) Soon after, the company (Johnson Controls by then) told the union how far wages would have to go down to get the bottom line out of the red, and refused to negotiate any more than that for the new labor contract. The union went on strike, and Johnson closed the factory, because they were unwilling to run a factory with negative profit and the union was unwilling to do anything that would result in actual profit. I drove past it this afternoon, still empty. I think the 25th anniversary of the plant closing was this year. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] OT Boeing
Interesting news on the new Boeing plant going in here. --R http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2009/dec/09/sc-may-benefit-from-supplier-plan/ ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] OT Boeing
No unions in Charleston. The plant had some union there, a hundred some workers in it, last summer they voted it out. My guess is that someone sat them down and did some 'splainin as to how things might work out, and they were smart enough to understand. The union kinda shoved it off as reflecting the south and attitudes and blahblahblah. Unh huh. After the decision, some Boeing exec was quoted (not for attribution) as saying it would be stupid to build more airplanes in Seattle after what the union had done to the company, the program, their customers, and themselves with their stupid strikes. Duh. But please please please don't tell all the folks there how nice Charleston is. We'd rather not have them come here and bring their ideas with them. Yankees (or anything like them) are not well-tolerated by a lot of the populace, but that is a matter for another discussion. Speaking of governors, ours provides hours of entertainment. --R Redghost wrote: The folks in Charleston got the 787 because our governor is a complete moron and the democrats here wanted to suck the cash cow dry then gut the goose that lays golden eggs. No desire at all to secure the future of the workers, just support for the unions. Seems the unions decided the state had screwed them in the 787 deal, so have pulled support for candidates. You will have to pay them to support you instead of having the unions fund your campaign clay On Dec 4, 2009, at 9:15 AM, Rich Thomas wrote: Boeing, now (or soon to be) in Charleston building 787s. (They actually have a factory here now for fuselage segments, which they fly to Seattle in a largerized 747 to be mated with other segments) --R Dieselhead wrote: My point exactly The museum is in Seattle, at Boeing field What is the location? Boeing Field in Seattle tell us what is the red barn? The place where Boeing started What is the name of the airport adjacent? Boeing Field What company's history is prominently featured? Boeing RLE apparently either can't answer these questions, or chose not to dazzle us with his knowledge. Who designed and oversaw construction of the B-17 that RLE toured? Boeing Who designed and oversaw construction of the B-29 that RLE toured? Boeing What major aircraft manufacturer claims Seattle as HQ? Boeing The fact that the proper name is "the Museum of Flight" is merely a technicality It IS a Boeing museum, and it is a good one. I also highly recommend the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensecola It could be called the Grumman museum Boeing Field in Seattle. Right on the property. I used to stay at the Holiday Inn while on business there. If my memory serves me correctly, they were open late on Thursdays, and I would always make it a point to go over and wander aimlessly around the place until closing. Dan --- On Thu, 12/3/09, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote: From: Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Boeing To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 11:28 PM What is the location? tell us what is the red barn? What is the name of the airport adjacent? > ...Early Boeing was spruce and dope. Then they started making furniture.You are talking about a 40 year old Boeing. I thought you lived out there! You should go to the Boeing museum sometime instead of hanging out on this list!... I have gone through the Museum of Flight and the Red Barn many times including a private tour earlier this year of their B-17 and B-29 (not open to the public) with my friend SJB who is a docent. He is the one who built a new tail gunner's compartment (functional except for working guns) for the B-29 out of thin air, using the original drawings. And it is not the Boeing Museum as anyone there will tell you. RLE > > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
