Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
Zoltan Finks wrote: Ah thanks for pointing that out. I believe that every diesel nozzle used to be too large to fit in unleaded cars though, at least at the service station I worked at. Well, once upon a time there was no such thing as a car diesel pump. My '82 Vanagon had a neck big enough for one of the huge truck nozzles, as did my friend's '80 Dasher. The Dasher's tank held something like 12 gallons, so it filled up *really* quick if you used the truck pump. ;)
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
Zoltan Finks wrote: As for the actual reason that leaded shouldn't go into an unleaded vehicle, that's another issue (apparently a hot one for some). No real mystery to it. The lead kills oxygen sensors and poisons catalytic converters.
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
I remember those days. It you weren't careful, some pumps would spray diesel 4' past the nozzle before cutting off. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Brodbeck Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:15 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use Zoltan Finks wrote: Ah thanks for pointing that out. I believe that every diesel nozzle used to be too large to fit in unleaded cars though, at least at the service station I worked at. Well, once upon a time there was no such thing as a car diesel pump. My '82 Vanagon had a neck big enough for one of the huge truck nozzles, as did my friend's '80 Dasher. The Dasher's tank held something like 12 gallons, so it filled up *really* quick if you used the truck pump. ;) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
All the necks I've seen on any diesel are just a wide open deal. Often when I fill one up I think about how it is relatively unprotected from putting just about anything in there. Reminds me of the filler on my buddy's '56 Ford F100. Brian David wrote: Well, once upon a time there was no such thing as a car diesel pump. My '82 Vanagon had a neck big enough for one of the huge truck nozzles, as did my friend's '80 Dasher.
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
I believe that every diesel nozzle used to be too large to fit in unleaded cars though, at least at the service station I worked at. Of course. All the nozzles once were the same size, except for the high-flow ones for big trucks. Then they made the smaller ones to dispense unleaded into the new cars, which had artificial orifices added to the usual wide-open neck. They can't keep doing that, the things are already borderline too small. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
Exactly the opposite, ethanol is the cheapest octane booster around! However, if the fuel delivery system cannot deliver enough fuel to maintain the correct fuel/air ratio (much more ethanol required, on the order of 30%), the engine will run too lean and detonate. Peter
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
David Brodbeck wrote: I think it's doubtful a non-FFV car will have enough fuel trim range to get back to a stoichiometric mixture. I think after E85 fillup, the computer will start enrichening the mix until it hits its limit, at which point it will likely set a O2 sensor stuck lean code and kick into open loop mode, at which point the engine will stop running. I'm guessing about 1/2 mile from the gas station.
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
Guess I won't be trying this maneuver then. This leads me to ask though: if E85 is so harmful to vehicles not equipped to run it, you would think that the E85 pumps would be plastered with big stickers with bold print in several languages warning against improper use. (maybe they are, I haven't looked at one) In fact, you would think that they would make it impossible to get the nozzle into the incorrect vehicle, as Regular (leaded) gas nozzles would not fit into Unleaded filler tubes. Everything available to the mass public has to be idiot-proof. And if the claims of cessation of engine function that I've heard here are true, then it doesn't compute that it would be physically possible for the public to put E85 into non-approved vehicles. Brian On 10/16/06, Mitch Haley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David Brodbeck wrote: I think it's doubtful a non-FFV car will have enough fuel trim range to get back to a stoichiometric mixture. I think after E85 fillup, the computer will start enrichening the mix until it hits its limit, at which point it will likely set a O2 sensor stuck lean code and kick into open loop mode, at which point the engine will stop running. I'm guessing about 1/2 mile from the gas station. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
I've stayed out of this discussion because I don't really know much about it. All I really can say is I've heard people say both ways, some have used E85 with no issues whatsoever and some have troubles and claim all sorts of stuff... Just like biodiesel as a matter of fact... I'm given to understand that here in MA anyway we're all burning E05 anyway since they've replaced MTBE (finally) with ethanol. I've noticed that since the switch to ethanol I've not needed any drygas in my pickup which used to require a pint every fall because of water in the gas... So anyhow, if I had E85 available I'd give it a shot, maybe half a tank or 1/4 tank at first so reducing the overall mixture to E50 or less. -Curt - Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1ยข/min. From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Oct 17 13:33:52 2006 Received: from wsip-24-249-104-140.ks.ks.cox.net ([24.249.104.140] helo=mtsqhexc1.mtsqh.com) by server8.arterytc8.net with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1GZp4p-0002Vc-VY for Mercedes@okiebenz.com; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:33:52 + content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 08:32:36 -0500 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re: B! It's Cold and I have no heat Thread-Index: Acbx8LVPHpzCNZ3pTPyRUAaDbya3cg== From: Donald Snook [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes@okiebenz.com X-Antivirus-Scanner: Clean mail though you should still use an Antivirus Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9.cp1 Subject: Re: [MBZ] B! It's Cold and I have no heat X-BeenThere: mercedes@okiebenz.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9.cp1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com List-Id: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes_okiebenz.com.okiebenz.com List-Unsubscribe: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Archive: /pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com List-Post: mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com List-Help: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Subscribe: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:33:52 - Well everyone seems to agree that I should check the monovalve. Something happened this morning that makes me wonder what the heck is going on. This morning, I had heat. I had it set on the regular non/ac vent mode. About half way to work, I noticed I was warm and that warm air was coming out the defrost. I did not have the defrost on. After a little while, I was too warm, so I turned the temperature down and it got colder and switched from defrost to vent. =20 =20 Is this all related to the monovalve?=20 =20 Donald H. Snook 1990 300SEL 132K=20
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
In fact, you would think that they would make it impossible to get the nozzle into the incorrect vehicle, as Regular (leaded) gas nozzles would not fit into Unleaded filler tubes. Ha! Leaded into unleaded was deemed harmful to the environment, so it was made difficult to do. Harm to your car? FU, Jack. They don't care if you pour sewage sludge or water into your gas tank. Or diesel, or E85... -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
Zoltan Finks wrote: In fact, you would think that they would make it impossible to get the nozzle into the incorrect vehicle, as Regular (leaded) gas nozzles would not fit into Unleaded filler tubes. I think they did that because, for a time, leaded was cheaper...and putting in the wrong one would appear to work fine in the short term, while causing the car to pollute much worse in the long term. There's nothing really stopping you from putting gasoline in your diesel car, or diesel in your gasoline car, except common sense. I don't think E85 is any different. Generally there's a big 'E85' sticker and the pump handle is usually colored yellow.
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
Curt Raymond wrote: I'm given to understand that here in MA anyway we're all burning E05 anyway since they've replaced MTBE (finally) with ethanol. That's a good point. If you check your owner's manual, it may even say something about it. I remember one of my gasoline cars had a note in the manual that up to 10% ethanol or 5% methanol was acceptable. It was in the same section that explained what octane rating to use.
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
Actually, I don't think that a diesel nozzle will fit into the unleaded car's filler inlet - the nozzle is too big, just as the unleaded nozzle necks down a mm or 2 in diameter, and the car's little flapper-door hole is proportionately smaller too, so that the leaded nozzle wouldn't fit. This is the type of measures that they took to prevent people from putting in the wrong fuel, and the lack of this is what i'm asking about with E85. If using it in the wrong vehicle could cause such problems, you'd think they'd take measures to counter human error. Just curious here, if I'm allowed to be. Maybe the fuel industry is in cahoots with mechanics and tow truck companies. As for the actual reason that leaded shouldn't go into an unleaded vehicle, that's another issue (apparently a hot one for some). Brian David wrote: There's nothing really stopping you from putting gasoline in your diesel car, or diesel in your gasoline car, except common sense.
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
You are wrong, the big truck diesel nozzle is too large to fit inside a gas filler but a car disel nozzle will fit just right. Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com Original Message From: Zoltan Finks [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10/17/06 02:14 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Actually, I don't think that a diesel nozzle will fit into the unleaded car's filler inlet - the nozzle is too big, just as the unleaded nozzle necks down a mm or 2 in diameter, and the car's little flapper-door hole is proportionately smaller too, so that the leaded nozzle wouldn't fit. This is the type of measures that they took to prevent people from putting in the wrong fuel, and the lack of this is what i'm asking about with E85. If using it in the wrong vehicle could cause such problems, you'd think they'd take measures to counter human error. Just curious here, if I'm allowed to be. Maybe the fuel industry is in cahoots with mechanics and tow truck companies. As for the actual reason that leaded shouldn't go into an unleaded vehicle, that's another issue (apparently a hot one for some). Brian David wrote: There's nothing really stopping you from putting gasoline in your diesel car, or diesel in your gasoline car, except common sense. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
Ah thanks for pointing that out. I believe that every diesel nozzle used to be too large to fit in unleaded cars though, at least at the service station I worked at. Brian On 10/17/06, Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You are wrong, the big truck diesel nozzle is too large to fit inside a gas filler but a car disel nozzle will fit just right. Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com Original Message From: Zoltan Finks [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10/17/06 02:14 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Actually, I don't think that a diesel nozzle will fit into the unleaded car's filler inlet - the nozzle is too big, just as the unleaded nozzle necks down a mm or 2 in diameter, and the car's little flapper-door hole is proportionately smaller too, so that the leaded nozzle wouldn't fit. This is the type of measures that they took to prevent people from putting in the wrong fuel, and the lack of this is what i'm asking about with E85. If using it in the wrong vehicle could cause such problems, you'd think they'd take measures to counter human error. Just curious here, if I'm allowed to be. Maybe the fuel industry is in cahoots with mechanics and tow truck companies. As for the actual reason that leaded shouldn't go into an unleaded vehicle, that's another issue (apparently a hot one for some). Brian David wrote: There's nothing really stopping you from putting gasoline in your diesel car, or diesel in your gasoline car, except common sense. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
Two operative words.. Brings to mind the old saw: There is nothing more dangerous than ignorance in action. May not apply to world affairs, tho Take care, Chuck Phoenix AZ On Oct 17, 2006, at 3:15 PM, Levi Smith wrote: some intern
[MBZ] OT E85 Use
Gang, This may sound a bit like the recent question regarding use of Biodiesel, but it's something else I've needed cleared up for a while. I heard from a mechanic friend of mine that it's fine to run E85 in a vehicle that's not equipped to run it *IF* you are going to run the whole of the fuel through the system within a day or so. (in other words, say you were embarking on a long road trip - you'd fill up with E85, and burn it all off). The critical thing, I'm told, is that you don't let the E85 sit in your tank and lines for days or weeks. I trust this source, but before attempting this maneuver, and potentially damaging up our vehicle, I thought I'd gather several opinions from a variety of people. Enter our glorious list! Oh, I should mention that - no - I'm not talking about running it in my diesel. It's a 2000 Honda CRV. Heck, maybe I should try it in our 84 Saab 900 first - it's worth less money (but has so much more character). Brian
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
Zoltan Finks wrote: I heard from a mechanic friend of mine that it's fine to run E85 in a vehicle that's not equipped to run it *IF* you are going to run the whole of the fuel through the system within a day or so. I don't think it will kill anything in one day, but it might reduce the life of some fuel system parts. More importantly, is the car programmed to flow 50% more fuel, or will it run lean and possibly stall? And do you want to pay 50% more for the fuel used in the experiment? (I pulled the 50% figure out of thin air, it might be closer to 40%, but there is significantly less energy in a gallon of alcohol)
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
So the power difference is that great? You're saying that E85 makes so much less power that the car needs to be designed to use more of it? Maybe that's why it is so inexpensive compared to dino gas. Brian On 10/16/06, Mitch Haley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zoltan Finks wrote: I heard from a mechanic friend of mine that it's fine to run E85 in a vehicle that's not equipped to run it *IF* you are going to run the whole of the fuel through the system within a day or so. I don't think it will kill anything in one day, but it might reduce the life of some fuel system parts. More importantly, is the car programmed to flow 50% more fuel, or will it run lean and possibly stall? And do you want to pay 50% more for the fuel used in the experiment? (I pulled the 50% figure out of thin air, it might be closer to 40%, but there is significantly less energy in a gallon of alcohol) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
And do you want to pay 50% more for the fuel used in the experiment? (I pulled the 50% figure out of thin air, it might be closer to 40%, but there is significantly less energy in a gallon of alcohol) According to text book values, ethanol has about 31% less heating value that gasoline. And a blend of E85 has about 27% less heating value than gasoline. If the Honda has a modern fuel injection system, that is controlled by an oxygen sensor at the exhaust, it will probably self compensate for the different air to fuel ratio of alcohol. In older cars there could be an ethanol solvent resistance issue in the fuel system gasket and hose materials. Ned Kleinhenz
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
Zoltan Finks wrote: So the power difference is that great? You're saying that E85 makes so much less power that the car needs to be designed to use more of it? Maybe that's why it is so inexpensive compared to dino gas. It's not that it makes less power (although it does), it's that the required air/fuel mixture is different than for gasoline. If you meter it at the same rate as gas, you'll run very lean. I think it's doubtful a non-FFV car will have enough fuel trim range to get back to a stoichiometric mixture. Biodiesel actually has a similar issue, but because diesels run lean all the time anyway it's not really a problem. The engine just makes slightly less power.
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
Don't the engines built for E85 have larger-flow injectors to handle the higher flow rate of E85 v. gasoline? I don't think a regular engine will be able to compensate for the difference in volumetric energy content even if the electronics see that it is not running properly. But I might be wrong. --R
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
If the vehicle is designed to use E85, it will use it in whatever mix or time of sitting you desire. The two issues are mixture control (E85 has to be run richer and the computer system must be able to deliver the extra fuel) and plastic/rubber compatibility with ethanol. What, after all, is the difference between letting ethanol base fuel sit in the car a while and driving it a lot and filling it up? A properly vented tank isn't going to allow all that much water pickup, which is the only problem I can think of with letting it sit. Peter
Re: [MBZ] OT E85 Use
My understanding of E85 is that it requires a higher compression engine to function well. No idea if it will eat the lines or etch stuff, just may not have enough bang to keep your car from pinging itself to death On Oct 15, 2006, at 9:19 PM, Zoltan Finks wrote: Gang, This may sound a bit like the recent question regarding use of Biodiesel, but it's something else I've needed cleared up for a while. I heard from a mechanic friend of mine that it's fine to run E85 in a vehicle that's not equipped to run it *IF* you are going to run the whole of the fuel through the system within a day or so. (in other words, say you were embarking on a long road trip - you'd fill up with E85, and burn it all off). The critical thing, I'm told, is that you don't let the E85 sit in your tank and lines for days or weeks. I trust this source, but before attempting this maneuver, and potentially damaging up our vehicle, I thought I'd gather several opinions from a variety of people. Enter our glorious list! Oh, I should mention that - no - I'm not talking about running it in my diesel. It's a 2000 Honda CRV. Heck, maybe I should try it in our 84 Saab 900 first - it's worth less money (but has so much more character). Brian ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Clay Seattle Bioburner 1972 220D - Gump 1995 E300D - Cleo 1987 300SDL - POS - DOA The FSM would drive a Diesel Benz
