Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
The one thing you did not mention, was that as Captain on this monster landing in the dark and the snow storm, your life is on the line along with that of the passengers. Hopefully, you are not the gambling sort and wish to live to fly again another day. RB On 30/03/2015 5:45 PM, G Mann wrote: Andrew, You play the part of Pilot In Command for a bit.. You are responsible for the lives of 200 people on board, perhaps $200,000 worth of cargo in the hold, an airplane valued at $70,000,000.00, and your reputation as Captain, which took you 15 yrs of long hours and hard work to get. Now.. it's dark, it's known ice conditions, the winds aloft are at near gale force, and your experience tells you those sensors are prone to malfunction in ice, or may give false readings.. AND you know you must have met Runway Visual Range Rules to land .. .. Do you rely on the automatic system or do you use every resource at your disposal to safely land the aircraft or deliver it to a safe location? You decide.. you have less than 8 minutes during the approach to landing.. tick toc...tick toc... tick toc Your approach speed is 186 kts. your landing weight is 230,000 lbs, if you descend into dirt it's gonna hurt... a lot.. still feeling comfortable releasing control to all those little electronics? ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
And the pilots are the first ones at the scene of the crash. --R On 3/31/15 10:52 AM, Randy Bennell wrote: The one thing you did not mention, was that as Captain on this monster landing in the dark and the snow storm, your life is on the line along with that of the passengers. Hopefully, you are not the gambling sort and wish to live to fly again another day. RB On 30/03/2015 5:45 PM, G Mann wrote: Andrew, You play the part of Pilot In Command for a bit.. You are responsible for the lives of 200 people on board, perhaps $200,000 worth of cargo in the hold, an airplane valued at $70,000,000.00, and your reputation as Captain, which took you 15 yrs of long hours and hard work to get. Now.. it's dark, it's known ice conditions, the winds aloft are at near gale force, and your experience tells you those sensors are prone to malfunction in ice, or may give false readings.. AND you know you must have met Runway Visual Range Rules to land .. .. Do you rely on the automatic system or do you use every resource at your disposal to safely land the aircraft or deliver it to a safe location? You decide.. you have less than 8 minutes during the approach to landing.. tick toc...tick toc... tick toc Your approach speed is 186 kts. your landing weight is 230,000 lbs, if you descend into dirt it's gonna hurt... a lot.. still feeling comfortable releasing control to all those little electronics? ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
Your good, your good. ;) Wilton - Original Message - From: Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale It Depends --R On 3/30/15 7:07 AM, Max Dillon wrote: Adult diapers could have prevented this whole thing! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
It Depends --R On 3/30/15 7:07 AM, Max Dillon wrote: Adult diapers could have prevented this whole thing! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
Thank you, I'll be here all week! --R On 3/30/15 10:28 AM, WILTON wrote: Your good, your good. ;) Wilton - Original Message - From: Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale It Depends --R On 3/30/15 7:07 AM, Max Dillon wrote: Adult diapers could have prevented this whole thing! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
It Depends --R On 3/30/15 7:07 AM, Max Dillon wrote: Adult diapers could have prevented this whole thing! Everyone throw rotten tomatoes at Rich! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
Or a urinal in the cockpit, or pee tubes as in days of yore - B-47's, for example. Wilton - Original Message - From: Max Dillon dillonm...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale Adult diapers could have prevented this whole thing! -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
Adult diapers could have prevented this whole thing! -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
This is a rare type of accident. When the fuss dies down, airlines will go back to their old ways. Student pilots often spend huge amounts of borrowed money before they can go to work for a budget airline where they will be paid only $20,000 or so per year initially. Gerry P.S. Did you ever get christened while looking up a pee tube to see if it was clear, Wilton? That was a WW-2 initiation. WILTON wrote: Or a urinal in the cockpit, or pee tubes as in days of yore - B-47's, for example. Wilton Adult diapers could have prevented this whole thing! -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
Not sure what that means but it sounds pretty nasty. On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 11:16 AM, arche...@embarqmail.com arche...@embarqmail.com wrote: This is a rare type of accident. When the fuss dies down, airlines will go back to their old ways. Student pilots often spend huge amounts of borrowed money before they can go to work for a budget airline where they will be paid only $20,000 or so per year initially. Gerry P.S. Did you ever get christened while looking up a pee tube to see if it was clear, Wilton? That was a WW-2 initiation. WILTON wrote: Or a urinal in the cockpit, or pee tubes as in days of yore - B-47's, for example. Wilton Adult diapers could have prevented this whole thing! -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
Come to the airport Andrew.. I'll demonstrate it to you... Back in the day when there were wooden ships and iron men. Something you missed in your education. On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: Not sure what that means but it sounds pretty nasty. On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 11:16 AM, arche...@embarqmail.com arche...@embarqmail.com wrote: This is a rare type of accident. When the fuss dies down, airlines will go back to their old ways. Student pilots often spend huge amounts of borrowed money before they can go to work for a budget airline where they will be paid only $20,000 or so per year initially. Gerry P.S. Did you ever get christened while looking up a pee tube to see if it was clear, Wilton? That was a WW-2 initiation. WILTON wrote: Or a urinal in the cockpit, or pee tubes as in days of yore - B-47's, for example. Wilton Adult diapers could have prevented this whole thing! -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
arche...@embarqmail.com wrote: This is a rare type of accident. Accident? Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
A rubber or plastic tube with, usually, a cone-shaped top end (entry), with spring-loaded valve at its base, placed near lower, front edge of the crewman's seat (low between his legs) and readily/easily accessible and usable for the crewman's relief - a relief tube. 'Could discharge into a receptacle/can aboard the aircraft or overboard. If discharging overboard, be carful of the suction created by the slipstream across the discharge end in flight. For those discharging overboard, there's a possibility that the discharge end can become blocked with ice. Wilton - Original Message - From: Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 11:19 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale Not sure what that means but it sounds pretty nasty. On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 11:16 AM, arche...@embarqmail.com arche...@embarqmail.com wrote: This is a rare type of accident. When the fuss dies down, airlines will go back to their old ways. Student pilots often spend huge amounts of borrowed money before they can go to work for a budget airline where they will be paid only $20,000 or so per year initially. Gerry P.S. Did you ever get christened while looking up a pee tube to see if it was clear, Wilton? That was a WW-2 initiation. WILTON wrote: Or a urinal in the cockpit, or pee tubes as in days of yore - B-47's, for example. Wilton Adult diapers could have prevented this whole thing! -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
No; never tried to look up one. Wilton - Original Message - From: arche...@embarqmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 11:16 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale This is a rare type of accident. When the fuss dies down, airlines will go back to their old ways. Student pilots often spend huge amounts of borrowed money before they can go to work for a budget airline where they will be paid only $20,000 or so per year initially. Gerry P.S. Did you ever get christened while looking up a pee tube to see if it was clear, Wilton? That was a WW-2 initiation. WILTON wrote: Or a urinal in the cockpit, or pee tubes as in days of yore - B-47's, for example. Wilton Adult diapers could have prevented this whole thing! -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
True Andrew, however Grant's point is more relevant to the Air France accident over the Atlantic - where they think a sensor iced over and was giving bad readings. The computer can't keep you in the air with bad data. All of these large aircraft are too many small parts flying in close formation. I fly by wire - wire cables between the control wheel and the control surfaces! On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: So the computer in the Germanwings disaster was listening to a human and if left alone would not hav e crashed the plane. Perhaps we need MORE technology and less reliance on potential human error. -- OK Don NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens! *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers* 2013 F150, 18 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
Oh, they arrived all right. Probably never gonna fly that particular plane out again though. Something strange happened, it's not like winter weather is an unusual event in Halifax, nor is an Air Canada A320 landing in a snowstorm. I'm sure there is more to the story than we have heard yet. In this day and age, an 1100 foot undershoot on a runway is very, very uncommon. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
Amen and AaMen... On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 3:24 PM, WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote: Divert. Spending the rest of the night somewhere else and coming back later is better than NEVER arriving. Wilton - Original Message - From: Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale But if you're making an approach in the dark and can't see 10' in front of the cockpit due to blizzard like conditions wouldn't it be wise to trust the automatic controls? On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 2:23 PM, OK Don okd...@gmail.com wrote: True Andrew, however Grant's point is more relevant to the Air France accident over the Atlantic - where they think a sensor iced over and was giving bad readings. The computer can't keep you in the air with bad data. All of these large aircraft are too many small parts flying in close formation. I fly by wire - wire cables between the control wheel and the control surfaces! On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: So the computer in the Germanwings disaster was listening to a human and if left alone would not hav e crashed the plane. Perhaps we need MORE technology and less reliance on potential human error. -- OK Don NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens! *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers* 2013 F150, 18 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
But if you're making an approach in the dark and can't see 10' in front of the cockpit due to blizzard like conditions wouldn't it be wise to trust the automatic controls? On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 2:23 PM, OK Don okd...@gmail.com wrote: True Andrew, however Grant's point is more relevant to the Air France accident over the Atlantic - where they think a sensor iced over and was giving bad readings. The computer can't keep you in the air with bad data. All of these large aircraft are too many small parts flying in close formation. I fly by wire - wire cables between the control wheel and the control surfaces! On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: So the computer in the Germanwings disaster was listening to a human and if left alone would not hav e crashed the plane. Perhaps we need MORE technology and less reliance on potential human error. -- OK Don NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens! *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers* 2013 F150, 18 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
Divert. Spending the rest of the night somewhere else and coming back later is better than NEVER arriving. Wilton - Original Message - From: Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale But if you're making an approach in the dark and can't see 10' in front of the cockpit due to blizzard like conditions wouldn't it be wise to trust the automatic controls? On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 2:23 PM, OK Don okd...@gmail.com wrote: True Andrew, however Grant's point is more relevant to the Air France accident over the Atlantic - where they think a sensor iced over and was giving bad readings. The computer can't keep you in the air with bad data. All of these large aircraft are too many small parts flying in close formation. I fly by wire - wire cables between the control wheel and the control surfaces! On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: So the computer in the Germanwings disaster was listening to a human and if left alone would not hav e crashed the plane. Perhaps we need MORE technology and less reliance on potential human error. -- OK Don NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens! *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers* 2013 F150, 18 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
Andrew, You play the part of Pilot In Command for a bit.. You are responsible for the lives of 200 people on board, perhaps $200,000 worth of cargo in the hold, an airplane valued at $70,000,000.00, and your reputation as Captain, which took you 15 yrs of long hours and hard work to get. Now.. it's dark, it's known ice conditions, the winds aloft are at near gale force, and your experience tells you those sensors are prone to malfunction in ice, or may give false readings.. AND you know you must have met Runway Visual Range Rules to land .. .. Do you rely on the automatic system or do you use every resource at your disposal to safely land the aircraft or deliver it to a safe location? You decide.. you have less than 8 minutes during the approach to landing.. tick toc...tick toc... tick toc Your approach speed is 186 kts. your landing weight is 230,000 lbs, if you descend into dirt it's gonna hurt... a lot.. still feeling comfortable releasing control to all those little electronics? On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 3:19 PM, Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: But if you're making an approach in the dark and can't see 10' in front of the cockpit due to blizzard like conditions wouldn't it be wise to trust the automatic controls? On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 2:23 PM, OK Don okd...@gmail.com wrote: True Andrew, however Grant's point is more relevant to the Air France accident over the Atlantic - where they think a sensor iced over and was giving bad readings. The computer can't keep you in the air with bad data. All of these large aircraft are too many small parts flying in close formation. I fly by wire - wire cables between the control wheel and the control surfaces! On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: So the computer in the Germanwings disaster was listening to a human and if left alone would not hav e crashed the plane. Perhaps we need MORE technology and less reliance on potential human error. -- OK Don NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens! *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers* 2013 F150, 18 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
What they said -- There are old pilots, and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots. On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 5:26 PM, G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com wrote: Amen and AaMen... On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 3:24 PM, WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote: Divert. Spending the rest of the night somewhere else and coming back later is better than NEVER arriving. Wilton -- OK Don NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens! *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers* 2013 F150, 18 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
Speaking of wooden ships, and climate change There are no longer enough of the big old trees around for the construction of the mighty sailing ships. Trees are too tiny to provide masts without glueing them together. Used to be you needed a mast, limp into a suitable harbor with trees, and send ship's carpenter out to procure himself a suitable tree. clay On Mar 30, 2015, at 8:43 AM, G Mann wrote: Come to the airport Andrew.. I'll demonstrate it to you... Back in the day when there were wooden ships and iron men. Something you missed in your education. On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: Not sure what that means but it sounds pretty nasty. On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 11:16 AM, arche...@embarqmail.com arche...@embarqmail.com wrote: This is a rare type of accident. When the fuss dies down, airlines will go back to their old ways. Student pilots often spend huge amounts of borrowed money before they can go to work for a budget airline where they will be paid only $20,000 or so per year initially. Gerry P.S. Did you ever get christened while looking up a pee tube to see if it was clear, Wilton? That was a WW-2 initiation. WILTON wrote: Or a urinal in the cockpit, or pee tubes as in days of yore - B-47's, for example. Wilton Adult diapers could have prevented this whole thing! -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
This is why I am not at all interested in using Google cars or other human devoid vehicles. Computers only do what they are told. Garbage in, garbage out, and human error writing the code. Rich was able to provide an example of pilot error, but the pilots were making choice and did not abrogate responsibility for the safety of the aircraft to a box. They could have, but did not trust the box to be right. Now, we have trained technician at the controls, not the seat of the pants artists of prior years. Today, the computer will handle it, were before, you took your life in your own hands and judgement. Nazi soldiers gave up their personal responsibility and just followed orders, no matter how morally wrong they felt the order to be. Same goes for the dumb box. clay On Mar 30, 2015, at 3:45 PM, G Mann wrote: Andrew, You play the part of Pilot In Command for a bit.. You are responsible for the lives of 200 people on board, perhaps $200,000 worth of cargo in the hold, an airplane valued at $70,000,000.00, and your reputation as Captain, which took you 15 yrs of long hours and hard work to get. Now.. it's dark, it's known ice conditions, the winds aloft are at near gale force, and your experience tells you those sensors are prone to malfunction in ice, or may give false readings.. AND you know you must have met Runway Visual Range Rules to land .. .. Do you rely on the automatic system or do you use every resource at your disposal to safely land the aircraft or deliver it to a safe location? You decide.. you have less than 8 minutes during the approach to landing.. tick toc...tick toc... tick toc Your approach speed is 186 kts. your landing weight is 230,000 lbs, if you descend into dirt it's gonna hurt... a lot.. still feeling comfortable releasing control to all those little electronics? On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 3:19 PM, Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: But if you're making an approach in the dark and can't see 10' in front of the cockpit due to blizzard like conditions wouldn't it be wise to trust the automatic controls? On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 2:23 PM, OK Don okd...@gmail.com wrote: True Andrew, however Grant's point is more relevant to the Air France accident over the Atlantic - where they think a sensor iced over and was giving bad readings. The computer can't keep you in the air with bad data. All of these large aircraft are too many small parts flying in close formation. I fly by wire - wire cables between the control wheel and the control surfaces! On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: So the computer in the Germanwings disaster was listening to a human and if left alone would not hav e crashed the plane. Perhaps we need MORE technology and less reliance on potential human error. -- OK Don NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens! *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers* 2013 F150, 18 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
So the computer in the Germanwings disaster was listening to a human and if left alone would not hav e crashed the plane. Perhaps we need MORE technology and less reliance on potential human error. On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 10:42 PM, G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com wrote: Rich, Nice bit of aviation history. While I salute your well earned hard work in all the FBW software, as a pilot I still hesitate to give command of the airplane over to a machine that runs on tiny bits of electrical signal.. There is simply to much that can fail or render a false signal which affects control of the airplane. There have been many instances where pilots then failed to recognize what was wrong and took incorrect action to correct the sensor/computer problem, and people died. While I'm sure it's a lovely system, we now have a syndrome among pilots where they are so busy flying the computer they forget to fly the airplane, their ultimate responsibility. The term Pilot in Command means exactly that, in the most draconian sense. I'm old school and I'm draconian. No excuses. In the recent case of GermanAir crash. The PIC left the cockpit because Pilot Relief Tubes have been removed, and reliance on a computers ability to fly the airplane regardless of having a low time, less skilled Second Officer in control, which the PIC apparently did not trust to make the landing, based on CVR info. The old aviation wisdom that says all airplane crashes start on the ground, in my opinion, apply in this recent case. Far in advance of a deeply off balance Co-Pilot being given control of the aircraft, decisions were made about how the airplane could and would be controlled other than by the crew. The PIC released the aircraft because he was, we now know, dying to take a pee, and trusted the computer to fly the airplane, apparently, while not completely trusting the man left in charge.. If you work backwards to discover the logic which drove such a decision making process, I believe I see a logic breakdown, influenced by over dependence on computer control. Of course, I come from a group of old school pilots who would pee their pants rather than release control of the aircraft, and some did. On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net wrote: So back when I was in kawledge I had summer internships at NASA Langley. One summer I was in the Flight Research Division, having worked the previous summer in the Flight Simulation Division, wherein the aircraft being simulated I was then working on in the real world. The primary aircraft was a 737 called the Terminal Configured Vehicle, which had a replica flight deck in the back cabin, from which the airplane could be flown by wire with the safety pilots up front being able to manually override the pilots in the back. We did all kinds of tweaking of the software to allow the plane to take off, fly, and land, all either automatic or by the wire inputs to the flight computer. I flew the simulator quite a bit while we were tweaking things, we would do a simulation of something then my colleagues would twiddle with the software (running on CDC Cyber computers, which were about the size of my 30 cuft refrigerator) and then we would see what happened. If stuff worked OK then it would be uploaded to the airplane, probably on tapes or something, I never saw that process. As far as I know this airplane and the software was the precursor to pretty much all the FBW stuff in all the planes today, so it is kinda fun to think back on that and whatever small role I might have had in that progress. One day while I was in the Flight Research group someone came to me and said there was some problem in the autoland algorithms, pull the flight data and go over to my previous group and see what we could figure out. The problem was that when the plane was landing on one particular runway, it would pound in hard. The safety pilots would think it was descending too rapidly and then try to correct and the result was a hard landing. Of course the pilots, whose man-equipage needed its own seat, were never to blame for this. So I printed off all the data, made plots, looked at all the control loops, we put it all in the simulator and flew the same landings with no problems. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the problem. One day I was driving to lunch on the other side of the airfield and noticed there was this big drainage ditch off the end of that runway, and the runway was 10 or 12 ft above the ditch. H I am thinking, remembering some radar altimeter data. (Langley sits on the marsh on a backwater of the Chesapeake, and is about 2ft above sea level, pretty much like my place is now) So I get back and look at all that, and sure enough you could see a big altitude jump right before landing, where the altimeter was sensing that ditch and
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
Fascinating! This group needs more in person tales like this, and like Wiltons. Gerry Rich Thomas wrote: So back when I was in kawledge I had summer internships at NASA Langley. One summer I was in the Flight Research Division, having worked the previous summer in the Flight Simulation Division, wherein the aircraft being simulated I was then working on in the real world. The primary aircraft was a 737 called the Terminal Configured Vehicle, which had a replica flight deck in the back cabin, from which the airplane could be flown by wire with the safety pilots up front being able to manually override the pilots in the back. We did all kinds of tweaking of the software to allow the plane to take off, fly, and land, all either automatic or by the wire inputs to the flight computer. I flew the simulator quite a bit while we were tweaking things, we would do a simulation of something then my colleagues would twiddle with the software (running on CDC Cyber computers, which were about the size of my 30 cuft refrigerator) and then we would see what happened. If stuff worked OK then it would be uploaded to the airplane, probably on tapes or something, I never saw that process. As far as I know this airplane and the software was the precursor to pretty much all the FBW stuff in all the planes today, so it is kinda fun to think back on that and whatever small role I might have had in that progress. One day while I was in the Flight Research group someone came to me and said there was some problem in the autoland algorithms, pull the flight data and go over to my previous group and see what we could figure out. The problem was that when the plane was landing on one particular runway, it would pound in hard. The safety pilots would think it was descending too rapidly and then try to correct and the result was a hard landing. Of course the pilots, whose man-equipage needed its own seat, were never to blame for this. So I printed off all the data, made plots, looked at all the control loops, we put it all in the simulator and flew the same landings with no problems. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the problem. One day I was driving to lunch on the other side of the airfield and noticed there was this big drainage ditch off the end of that runway, and the runway was 10 or 12 ft above the ditch. H I am thinking, remembering some radar altimeter data. (Langley sits on the marsh on a backwater of the Chesapeake, and is about 2ft above sea level, pretty much like my place is now) So I get back and look at all that, and sure enough you could see a big altitude jump right before landing, where the altimeter was sensing that ditch and commanding the aircraft to go down a bit to compensate. But in the simulator, once it crossed the threshold and got over the runway, it would pitch up a bit to maintain proper descent to landing. At that point it was maybe 30ft above the runway, the ditch made it think it was like 40+ ft. So I look at the simulator, and quite clearly the flight computer caught this, and the airplane was responsive enough to the computer, that it would land properly and smoothly, no drama. But when the pilots got in the loop, they were of course much slower to react and command the aircraft, so it would not pitch up to compensate and would pound in, sooner than the touchdown point the computer would land it. The pilots basically were the problem. So a few days later we had a meeting to go over what was going on, and my older colleagues say, Rich how about you go over what you found. So I do that, we took the data, ran the simulations, no problems, then hey look at when the pilots took over because they thought it was going to land short or hard, then BANG it lands short and hard. If you had let the system do its job, no problems. So, the pilots then had a shitfit and start in on me, whothehellisthiskidwhatdoesheknowblahblah, and I see the guys smirking at me, they had set me up to deliver the news and catch the flak from the guys with the big egos. So then a coupla days later one of the pilots comes charging in our space and walks over to me and says, THOMAS YOU'RE COMING WITH US! I of course about evacuated, but followed him and he goes to the airplane, tells me I am going, and they are going to fly the profile a few times and see what happens. So I take a seat back behind the aft flight deck where I can watch what's happening, and after 3 or 4 touch and gos we come back, nothing is said. So we get back to the office and a couple of the other guys who were on the plane are all laughing at me and saying those guys were pretty damn quiet, huh, looks like you were right! So, shonuff, the computer landed the plane fine, the pilots tried it and pounded it in. Vindication! Of course the pilots never admitted it but they treated
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
Rich, Nice bit of aviation history. While I salute your well earned hard work in all the FBW software, as a pilot I still hesitate to give command of the airplane over to a machine that runs on tiny bits of electrical signal.. There is simply to much that can fail or render a false signal which affects control of the airplane. There have been many instances where pilots then failed to recognize what was wrong and took incorrect action to correct the sensor/computer problem, and people died. While I'm sure it's a lovely system, we now have a syndrome among pilots where they are so busy flying the computer they forget to fly the airplane, their ultimate responsibility. The term Pilot in Command means exactly that, in the most draconian sense. I'm old school and I'm draconian. No excuses. In the recent case of GermanAir crash. The PIC left the cockpit because Pilot Relief Tubes have been removed, and reliance on a computers ability to fly the airplane regardless of having a low time, less skilled Second Officer in control, which the PIC apparently did not trust to make the landing, based on CVR info. The old aviation wisdom that says all airplane crashes start on the ground, in my opinion, apply in this recent case. Far in advance of a deeply off balance Co-Pilot being given control of the aircraft, decisions were made about how the airplane could and would be controlled other than by the crew. The PIC released the aircraft because he was, we now know, dying to take a pee, and trusted the computer to fly the airplane, apparently, while not completely trusting the man left in charge.. If you work backwards to discover the logic which drove such a decision making process, I believe I see a logic breakdown, influenced by over dependence on computer control. Of course, I come from a group of old school pilots who would pee their pants rather than release control of the aircraft, and some did. On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net wrote: So back when I was in kawledge I had summer internships at NASA Langley. One summer I was in the Flight Research Division, having worked the previous summer in the Flight Simulation Division, wherein the aircraft being simulated I was then working on in the real world. The primary aircraft was a 737 called the Terminal Configured Vehicle, which had a replica flight deck in the back cabin, from which the airplane could be flown by wire with the safety pilots up front being able to manually override the pilots in the back. We did all kinds of tweaking of the software to allow the plane to take off, fly, and land, all either automatic or by the wire inputs to the flight computer. I flew the simulator quite a bit while we were tweaking things, we would do a simulation of something then my colleagues would twiddle with the software (running on CDC Cyber computers, which were about the size of my 30 cuft refrigerator) and then we would see what happened. If stuff worked OK then it would be uploaded to the airplane, probably on tapes or something, I never saw that process. As far as I know this airplane and the software was the precursor to pretty much all the FBW stuff in all the planes today, so it is kinda fun to think back on that and whatever small role I might have had in that progress. One day while I was in the Flight Research group someone came to me and said there was some problem in the autoland algorithms, pull the flight data and go over to my previous group and see what we could figure out. The problem was that when the plane was landing on one particular runway, it would pound in hard. The safety pilots would think it was descending too rapidly and then try to correct and the result was a hard landing. Of course the pilots, whose man-equipage needed its own seat, were never to blame for this. So I printed off all the data, made plots, looked at all the control loops, we put it all in the simulator and flew the same landings with no problems. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the problem. One day I was driving to lunch on the other side of the airfield and noticed there was this big drainage ditch off the end of that runway, and the runway was 10 or 12 ft above the ditch. H I am thinking, remembering some radar altimeter data. (Langley sits on the marsh on a backwater of the Chesapeake, and is about 2ft above sea level, pretty much like my place is now) So I get back and look at all that, and sure enough you could see a big altitude jump right before landing, where the altimeter was sensing that ditch and commanding the aircraft to go down a bit to compensate. But in the simulator, once it crossed the threshold and got over the runway, it would pitch up a bit to maintain proper descent to landing. At that point it was maybe 30ft above the runway, the ditch made it think it was like 40+ ft. So I look at the simulator, and quite clearly the flight
Re: [MBZ] Bad week for A-320 -- A Langley Tale
So back when I was in kawledge I had summer internships at NASA Langley. One summer I was in the Flight Research Division, having worked the previous summer in the Flight Simulation Division, wherein the aircraft being simulated I was then working on in the real world. The primary aircraft was a 737 called the Terminal Configured Vehicle, which had a replica flight deck in the back cabin, from which the airplane could be flown by wire with the safety pilots up front being able to manually override the pilots in the back. We did all kinds of tweaking of the software to allow the plane to take off, fly, and land, all either automatic or by the wire inputs to the flight computer. I flew the simulator quite a bit while we were tweaking things, we would do a simulation of something then my colleagues would twiddle with the software (running on CDC Cyber computers, which were about the size of my 30 cuft refrigerator) and then we would see what happened. If stuff worked OK then it would be uploaded to the airplane, probably on tapes or something, I never saw that process. As far as I know this airplane and the software was the precursor to pretty much all the FBW stuff in all the planes today, so it is kinda fun to think back on that and whatever small role I might have had in that progress. One day while I was in the Flight Research group someone came to me and said there was some problem in the autoland algorithms, pull the flight data and go over to my previous group and see what we could figure out. The problem was that when the plane was landing on one particular runway, it would pound in hard. The safety pilots would think it was descending too rapidly and then try to correct and the result was a hard landing. Of course the pilots, whose man-equipage needed its own seat, were never to blame for this. So I printed off all the data, made plots, looked at all the control loops, we put it all in the simulator and flew the same landings with no problems. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the problem. One day I was driving to lunch on the other side of the airfield and noticed there was this big drainage ditch off the end of that runway, and the runway was 10 or 12 ft above the ditch. H I am thinking, remembering some radar altimeter data. (Langley sits on the marsh on a backwater of the Chesapeake, and is about 2ft above sea level, pretty much like my place is now) So I get back and look at all that, and sure enough you could see a big altitude jump right before landing, where the altimeter was sensing that ditch and commanding the aircraft to go down a bit to compensate. But in the simulator, once it crossed the threshold and got over the runway, it would pitch up a bit to maintain proper descent to landing. At that point it was maybe 30ft above the runway, the ditch made it think it was like 40+ ft. So I look at the simulator, and quite clearly the flight computer caught this, and the airplane was responsive enough to the computer, that it would land properly and smoothly, no drama. But when the pilots got in the loop, they were of course much slower to react and command the aircraft, so it would not pitch up to compensate and would pound in, sooner than the touchdown point the computer would land it. The pilots basically were the problem. So a few days later we had a meeting to go over what was going on, and my older colleagues say, Rich how about you go over what you found. So I do that, we took the data, ran the simulations, no problems, then hey look at when the pilots took over because they thought it was going to land short or hard, then BANG it lands short and hard. If you had let the system do its job, no problems. So, the pilots then had a shitfit and start in on me, whothehellisthiskidwhatdoesheknowblahblah, and I see the guys smirking at me, they had set me up to deliver the news and catch the flak from the guys with the big egos. So then a coupla days later one of the pilots comes charging in our space and walks over to me and says, THOMAS YOU'RE COMING WITH US! I of course about evacuated, but followed him and he goes to the airplane, tells me I am going, and they are going to fly the profile a few times and see what happens. So I take a seat back behind the aft flight deck where I can watch what's happening, and after 3 or 4 touch and gos we come back, nothing is said. So we get back to the office and a couple of the other guys who were on the plane are all laughing at me and saying those guys were pretty damn quiet, huh, looks like you were right! So, shonuff, the computer landed the plane fine, the pilots tried it and pounded it in. Vindication! Of course the pilots never admitted it but they treated me a bit nicer for the rest of the summer. Here's a blurb about the research fleet, the bottom pictures of NASA 515 show the airplane. My office was in that hangar to the left
