Re: About BSD Certification
On 6/12/07, Jeff Quast <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 6/11/07, Karsten McMinn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 6/10/07, Adam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > That's just as stupid as requiring people have a cert. Lots of people have > > certs because so many places toss your resume if you don't have "MCSE" or > > "CCNA" listed on it. Just because they have a cert doesn't mean they don't > > know what they're doing. > > alot of anti-cert sentiment. borderline misinformation in > some cases. I've interviewed folks with and without certs. > I don't know why some people insist on arguing > that "book != cover"[1] with regard to certs. silly. > > here's a couple points for consideration: You lightly touched on it, but there is a very crucial need for this certification that happily employed IT people can't begin to understand. There are many young unemployables who freely code dozens of languages, but work at gas stations because they have a blank resume. I know a very good kernel hacker in Flint, MI who does roofing. I met another C programmer at a small factory where we both made -less- than minimum wage. Does the cert cover coding? In any case I completely ignore certs when hiring or finding contractors. I've found too many times that people can't answer simple questions about administration even when they're a CCNA or MCSE or the like. In the case of developers I'll take someone without experience if they bring their own code and can explain it to me in layman's terms, and if they can take some basic undocumented code of ours and document it. Greg -- http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html "Run over your friends in stolen Volkswagens And tell them I sent you, and tell them I sent ... YOU" - Mclusky
Re: About BSD Certification
On 6/11/07, Karsten McMinn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 6/10/07, Adam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That's just as stupid as requiring people have a cert. Lots of people have > certs because so many places toss your resume if you don't have "MCSE" or > "CCNA" listed on it. Just because they have a cert doesn't mean they don't > know what they're doing. alot of anti-cert sentiment. borderline misinformation in some cases. I've interviewed folks with and without certs. I don't know why some people insist on arguing that "book != cover"[1] with regard to certs. silly. here's a couple points for consideration: You lightly touched on it, but there is a very crucial need for this certification that happily employed IT people can't begin to understand. There are many young unemployables who freely code dozens of languages, but work at gas stations because they have a blank resume. I know a very good kernel hacker in Flint, MI who does roofing. I met another C programmer at a small factory where we both made -less- than minimum wage. Some young people live in areas with very high unemployment rates. In these places, it is not so easy to gain even minimal experience under high competition. With a resume that contains no related work history or any education, a certification is a cheap way to prove a small amount of equivalent real-world experience to get a foot in the door. I support the BSD certification, and will be recommending it to all students who would like to find work in the field before they graduate (or if they can't afford to graduate). I think we should all be used to the idea that many college students also work full time. An equivalent linux certification, LPI, costs less than a single college course. I have been tracking BSDCG's progress in detail, including their psychometrics, and this may possibly become the best real-world experience equivalency IT certification yet, and set an example for others. They're not trying to make this certification any more than it is, no more than the equivalent of a few months experience. Lastly, though I think it's already been said, If you don't like or need the certification, don't take it. If you think it's equivalency is shit, then don't consider it when making hiring decisions. If neither of these apply, go shit in somebody else's bed. Don't ruin it for those who could really use it.
Re: About BSD Certification
On 6/11/07, Karsten McMinn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: alot of anti-cert sentiment. borderline misinformation in some cases. I've interviewed folks with and without certs. I don't know why some people insist on arguing that "book != cover"[1] with regard to certs. silly. here's a couple points for consideration: I think those are extremely good points. As with everything else, not everything is black and white. And in certain cases, certifications do ensure a minimum level of knowledge. I try to keep an open mind. Certain certs, I don't really care (ie, mcse). Other certs, such as ccnp, do imply a minimum level of knowledge. Of course, there are dumb as rocks CCIEs too. One thing to keep in mind, just because I have a cert doesn't mean I don't know what I'm doing. Sometimes, it is necessary, for example, to get past HR. Way back in the mid-90s, a large back in town was hiring for a security guy. I tried for months to apply, but never got past the HR firewall. One day, the hiring manager put his own ad out, with his email address. I sent in my resume, and was immediately summoned for an interview, and offered the job right then. It was a damned cool job too - he told me 70% of my time will be spent surfing the net!!! :) -- "This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity." -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation.
Re: About BSD Certification
On 6/11/07, Lars Hansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Indeed. The problem isn't with certification in itself but the way it currently works in the IT industry. The majority of the people with certification got it by going to a boot camp or buying one of them examcram books thus end up with a certificate yet knowing nothing of value. That's why there are some highly ethical companies that not only provide training but REAL, HONEST-TO-GOODNESS experience! How?! You see, they analyzed the market, and came to the conclusion that being a cert mill is impeding their marketability - ie, all those whiners who paid for the class and can't get jobs is causing a lack of new people who want to give them lots of money. So, they have to offer value-add. Now, the people actually _running_ the show ain't stupid, and really, its easy to see, have cert, no experience == no job. Getting the cert is easy - heck, don't they do it day in day out? How the heck do you get someone some hard earned experience?!!! *ponder* *ponder some more* AHA! Lets do a paid internship program. This is how it works. *YOU* pay them a large sum of money, usually around US$10k or so, and in return, you get all the training you want for a year or some such. Or perhaps they guarantee you a msce cert. OK, that takes care of step 1. Step 2, once you pass any exam, you now get to teach that class. Since it's an internship, they don't have to pay you (see above note about US$10k). After about 6 months or so, hey, you now have 6 months of actual HONEST-TO-GOODNESS TEACHING EXPERIENCE! And you can even tell your new potential employers that you're so good that YOU CAN TEACH THE CLASS!!! And the best part about this program - it's self renewing. After all, the folks who paid $10k for the certs need the experience of teaching other fools too, right? -Mr. Sarcasm 'r' Us, for those who can't read between the lines. -- "This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity." -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation.
Re: About BSD Certification
Diana Eichert wrote: Uggg, certs, I give little credence to any "vendor" cert. So many people use "bootcamps" for tests and walk away with little more than paper. I know, I work with them. Indeed. The problem isn't with certification in itself but the way it currently works in the IT industry. The majority of the people with certification got it by going to a boot camp or buying one of them examcram books thus end up with a certificate yet knowing nothing of value. --- Lars Hansson
Re: About BSD Certification
On 6/10/07, Adam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: That's just as stupid as requiring people have a cert. Lots of people have certs because so many places toss your resume if you don't have "MCSE" or "CCNA" listed on it. Just because they have a cert doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing. alot of anti-cert sentiment. borderline misinformation in some cases. I've interviewed folks with and without certs. I don't know why some people insist on arguing that "book != cover"[1] with regard to certs. silly. here's a couple points for consideration: 1) not all certs are created equal. ccie != mcse 2) many organizations hold cisco and MS partnerships and will often choose a unix admin with a mcp and ccna over one who doesn't so they can keep partnership status or increase it -- all other factors being equal. 3) a few certs do carry salary floors with them. the ccie being one and maybe the gse another.[2] 4) Most top firms that most of us would enjoy being employed by almost always care less about certification, as talent and skill means everything. 5) some argue that certification is a better-than-nothing form of peer-reviewal of ones skills. [1] book=person and their skills, cover=resume [2] this assumes 5ish+ years of good real world experience
Re: About BSD Certification
On 6/11/07, Daniel Ouellet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The Admin that really know their stuff, will put them just as an other stone in their knowledge, but sadly most will put it on top and as first to justify they are good and know what you need and these same one will also put in to all their emails, business cards, walls, where ever. My business cards typically have my name, and the letters "bofh" after it[1]. Well, that got stopped at the last place, but I'm going to put it in again at the new place :) Depending on certification, and what you do, sometimes having those letters does help. Then again, I go around telling everyone I got my CISSP by reading the CISSP for Dummies[2] book... *blink* :) I've never put my title or other such crap in my .sig. I'm starting to see the benefits of my phone number in my .sig at work, still contemplating that. I've always figured, if someone thinks it's important enough to find out who am I/what I do, then they can go look it up in the corporate directory. -b0fh [1] At one prior place, I sneaked "LAN Lord" on to the cards too. [2] Much *MUCH* better than those "official" cissp books. Took us a month just to read 10 pages. I read the dummies book in one night, and passed it the next day. Having always been interested in security, and reading about it did help too :) -- "This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity." -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation.
Re: About BSD Certification
Adam wrote: Daniel Ouellet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Time have show my over and over that candidate that need to justify what they know by papers are not the one that get the job done when you are in crisis and as such, that become my quick filter before the interview as to who not to invite. That's just as stupid as requiring people have a cert. Lots of people have certs because so many places toss your resume if you don't have "MCSE" or "CCNA" listed on it. Just because they have a cert doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing. No it does not. The difference is the one that got the CERT because it was required, simply doesn't spend all their times flashing it left and right and signing all their emails with the full lists of them to show it off. Admin that know their stuff don't need CERT to justify what they know, it's just the start of knowing what to do. It's not a mean to the end if you want. I saw many that express clearly that they don't need to learn more as they go their CERT and they will tell you that they need to renew it every few years and that's how they stay on top. I would tell you that proper Admin don't use their CERT to polish their resume, but will show what they can do and what they know without them and will simply add them as an add on in annex to their CV. Not to bust your bubble, but really, that's what I do and I never regretted it yet once! The best candidate are always the one that can explain it without fuss, show you by example and just get it done without the needs to put themselves on a pedestal! Getting a cert isn't putting themselves on a pedestal, its filling a stupid requirement for alot of jobs. How are people supposed to guess wether or not to list their certs when applying for any given job to get past the mindless resume filtering dummies? I agree with your statement for some job requiring this, I would simply say that way to many thinks that having the CERT is all that is required and it's not. I guess you know that you can try to pass your MCSE every month and always get the same tests, so failing multiple times until pass, doesn't mean the person gets it. Granted, not everyone is like that, but the real difference is the one that gets the CERT because they have to, and the one that gets it because they think it's the best thing after the slice bread and that having it will not required them to learn anything else. It come down to, where do you put your CERT in your CV, on top, or in annex? The Admin that really know their stuff, will put them just as an other stone in their knowledge, but sadly most will put it on top and as first to justify they are good and know what you need and these same one will also put in to all their emails, business cards, walls, where ever. I didn't mean to insult you or anything, if I did, then my apology to you, I simply stated a real fact of life in ways that sadly to many use their CERT in the wrong way. It's just like graduating from engineering school. Most graduate think they know all there is to know and now they can do any jobs, I say and proved that many times over in my own life, that when you graduate, even with honor, just know just to well how to start learning now and you will do for the rest of your life. If that same person don't like that, then he/she sure pick the wrong field! Hope that clarify my previous statement. Best, Daniel
Re: About BSD Certification
Daniel Ouellet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Time have show my over and over that candidate that need to justify what > they know by papers are not the one that get the job done when you are > in crisis and as such, that become my quick filter before the interview > as to who not to invite. That's just as stupid as requiring people have a cert. Lots of people have certs because so many places toss your resume if you don't have "MCSE" or "CCNA" listed on it. Just because they have a cert doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing. > Not to bust your bubble, but really, that's what I do and I never > regretted it yet once! The best candidate are always the one that can > explain it without fuss, show you by example and just get it done > without the needs to put themselves on a pedestal! Getting a cert isn't putting themselves on a pedestal, its filling a stupid requirement for alot of jobs. How are people supposed to guess wether or not to list their certs when applying for any given job to get past the mindless resume filtering dummies? Adam
Re: About BSD Certification
dreamwvr wrote: Just my 2 cents. Personally there is nothing wrong with making money. What I find sad is when that becomes the only way to enter the fray. For example the CISSP certification cost quite a bit and is used as a secret handshake by quite a few corps. It is the tip of the iceberg and is geared to those with lots of money to throw around. This means from observation that some are denied entry just because they do not have the dough to SHELL out. Hey it is an excellent baseline but certainly not the holy grail many tout it to be. By the way anyone willing to verify I have been involved in security for the past num++ years so I can get my CISSP certification. :-) I can tell you that I used to higher many people in my previous life and now time to time with two of my business and I can honestly say that every time someone comes to me with flashing all the various credential, specially all the various MCSE one. I really get a big trip out of candidate that send you CV with signature with credential at the bottom of the emails longer then their CV itself. Time have show my over and over that candidate that need to justify what they know by papers are not the one that get the job done when you are in crisis and as such, that become my quick filter before the interview as to who not to invite. Not to bust your bubble, but really, that's what I do and I never regretted it yet once! The best candidate are always the one that can explain it without fuss, show you by example and just get it done without the needs to put themselves on a pedestal! I can also tell you that as of now, for many years, not once yet did I had to provide support to a MSCE guys that wasn't wrong in his setup. I love getting these emails with, you have a network problem, of setup wrong here, or what ever and they signed their emails with more crediential then the 8 1/2 by 11 sheet of paers can hold. Best, Daniel
Re: About BSD Certification
Uggg, certs, I give little credence to any "vendor" cert. So many people use "bootcamps" for tests and walk away with little more than paper. I know, I work with them. I'm proud to say I'm darn near uneducated, besides the 15 month tech certificate in Optics/Photonics I received from a local tech school almost 2 decades ago. g.day
Re: About BSD Certification
On Sat, Jun 09, 2007 at 02:28:30AM +0200, Rico Secada wrote: > On Sat, 9 Jun 2007 00:28:08 +0200 > Marc Balmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > * Rico Secada wrote: > > > > > What do you think of The BSD Certification Group at bsdcertification.org? > > > > It is as useless as MSCE and all the other vendor certificates. I would > > even go so far to claim it's a lot worse than a Microsoft or Cisco > > certificate. > > > > This is not backed by any industry, it just reflects what some people in > > the BSD community think would be needed to do a day job. > > My point exactly. > > Darren Spruell wrote: "Then take a look at the names affiliated with the > organization, and the people that are putting effort into furthering a > BSD certification track and the reasons why. Many of the names you should > recognize as contributors in our community." > > Contributors in our community yes, but this doesn't mean that a BSD > certification is worth the money they charge. > > What it serves in my opinion, especially if the industri was backing it, > is a way to keep very skillful people from getting a job! Not the opposite. > > A lot of people can't afford some 10 different certificates just to prove > something which a certificate in reality doesn't prove anyway. > > > bsdcertification.org is there to boost the ego of it's members only. > > There is no real value in it. > > Perhaps I am mistaken about the "them making money part", but I agree > with this. No value! Just my 2 cents. Personally there is nothing wrong with making money. What I find sad is when that becomes the only way to enter the fray. For example the CISSP certification cost quite a bit and is used as a secret handshake by quite a few corps. It is the tip of the iceberg and is geared to those with lots of money to throw around. This means from observation that some are denied entry just because they do not have the dough to SHELL out. Hey it is an excellent baseline but certainly not the holy grail many tout it to be. By the way anyone willing to verify I have been involved in security for the past num++ years so I can get my CISSP certification. :-)
Re: About BSD Certification
On Sat, 9 Jun 2007 00:28:08 +0200 Marc Balmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > * Rico Secada wrote: > > > What do you think of The BSD Certification Group at bsdcertification.org? > > It is as useless as MSCE and all the other vendor certificates. I would > even go so far to claim it's a lot worse than a Microsoft or Cisco > certificate. > > This is not backed by any industry, it just reflects what some people in > the BSD community think would be needed to do a day job. My point exactly. Darren Spruell wrote: "Then take a look at the names affiliated with the organization, and the people that are putting effort into furthering a BSD certification track and the reasons why. Many of the names you should recognize as contributors in our community." Contributors in our community yes, but this doesn't mean that a BSD certification is worth the money they charge. What it serves in my opinion, especially if the industri was backing it, is a way to keep very skillful people from getting a job! Not the opposite. A lot of people can't afford some 10 different certificates just to prove something which a certificate in reality doesn't prove anyway. > bsdcertification.org is there to boost the ego of it's members only. > There is no real value in it. Perhaps I am mistaken about the "them making money part", but I agree with this. No value! Best regards Rico
Re: About BSD Certification
On 6/8/07, Marc Balmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: * Rico Secada wrote: > What do you think of The BSD Certification Group at bsdcertification.org? It is as useless as MSCE and all the other vendor certificates. I would even go so far to claim it's a lot worse than a Microsoft or Cisco certificate. This is not backed by any industry, it just reflects what some people in the BSD community think would be needed to do a day job. bsdcertification.org is there to boost the ego of it's members only. There is no real value in it. I don't take such a cynical view but overall I think certifications are worthless, even the most well meaning and comprehensive certs. For some, like me, they serve as motivation to learn as much as possible about a given subject. But many others will try to game the system in one way or another so you can never tell if a person holding a certification knows the subject matter or not. Greg http://www.ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html
Re: About BSD Certification
* Rico Secada wrote: > What do you think of The BSD Certification Group at bsdcertification.org? It is as useless as MSCE and all the other vendor certificates. I would even go so far to claim it's a lot worse than a Microsoft or Cisco certificate. This is not backed by any industry, it just reflects what some people in the BSD community think would be needed to do a day job. bsdcertification.org is there to boost the ego of it's members only. There is no real value in it.
Re: About BSD Certification
On 6/8/07, Rico Secada <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Taking a certification doesn't prove anything imho. And the way that they focus on the 4 different BSD's.. you could have someone being an expert in OpenBSD yet he has never used DragonflyBSD, would this make him less interesting to hire for a BSD specific job? if it is dflybsd specific job than yes, otherwise no. -- almir
Re: About BSD Certification
On 6/8/07, Rico Secada <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi What do you think of The BSD Certification Group at bsdcertification.org? Is this a good idea? From my perspective it looks like a smart marketing way. A way to make money from people who think this would help in some way. Read up about the goals of the organization, and the intentions they have going in. Then take a look at the names affiliated with the organization, and the people that are putting effort into furthering a BSD certification track and the reasons why. Many of the names you should recognize as contributors in our community. Then have a look at the fully disclosed proceedings and progress of what the group's accomplished so far. Once you come to your conclusions, I hope you'll be more hesitant to drop this kind of insulting and uninformed drivel. DS
Re: About BSD Certification
Rico Secada wrote: Hi What do you think of The BSD Certification Group at bsdcertification.org? i think it gives me a massive erection. the quality of an admin is measurable directly as a function of the extraneous certifications they have, duh! Is this a good idea? From my perspective it looks like a smart marketing way. A way to make money from people who think this would help in some way. if it were for non-BSD licensed OSes, i would totally agree, however i think it's a legitimate move to give us BSD folks some sort of laurels that appeal to stupid HR and mgmt types and not a move to hustle up cash. Taking a certification doesn't prove anything imho. And the way that they focus on the 4 different BSD's.. you could have someone being an expert in OpenBSD yet he has never used DragonflyBSD, would this make him less interesting to hire for a BSD specific job? knowing one BSD implies a comparable level of skill in the other ones, IMO. only a matter of figuring out the package utility and occasionally using features unique to that BSD. there is also that deep throbbing philosophical pain that overwhelms me when i use the other BSDs... cheers, jake Best regards Rico
About BSD Certification
Hi What do you think of The BSD Certification Group at bsdcertification.org? Is this a good idea? From my perspective it looks like a smart marketing way. A way to make money from people who think this would help in some way. Taking a certification doesn't prove anything imho. And the way that they focus on the 4 different BSD's.. you could have someone being an expert in OpenBSD yet he has never used DragonflyBSD, would this make him less interesting to hire for a BSD specific job? Best regards Rico
