Re: Dual booting OpenBSD and Windows 8.1
On Fri, November 15, 2013 13:50, Dmitrij D. Czarkoff wrote: Kirill Bychkov said: I can't agree with that. You can test something not in FAQ if you are sure it will make no harm to your system. Dance with bootloaders and partition managers could lead to catastrophe if you make an error. [snip] Keep in mind that potential risk boiled down to wasted space on the hard drive, which could be easily reclaimed for OS the OP would prefer if dualboot was impossible. Well, I don't really understand the meaning you put behind the word catastrophe, given that the action in subject is the installation of two operating systems. You can't reinstall OS without loosing data, so I assume that all data from hard disks is backed up, and the only resource to waste is the time. Even then, again, given due precausion you don't really risk any data loss for any of the OSs. Any blind operations with MBR, bootloaders and partion editor may be destructive without sufficient knowledge. We all know, than M$ always inventing new traps for alternative OS. Care to elaborate? I'm not aware of any traps regarding disk management. And their boot process organization is one of that traps. Again, care to elaborate? Where's the actual trap? You can't simply follow instructions for multibooting with XP when you are dealing with Win7. Same could happen with Win8.1. But it seems it doesn't. This time, I assume. We just get UEFI as a headache. Is it not a trap?
Re: Dual booting OpenBSD and Windows 8.1
On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 07:39:41AM +0100, Tomas Bodzar wrote: On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 6:01 AM, za...@gmx.com wrote: Hi I was thinking of dual booting OpenBSd and Windows 8.1. Has anyone managed to do that? I suppose I would have to install Windows first, and then OpenBSD. Does the OpenBSD installation include a boot manager such as GRUB? I have experience setting up dual booting with GRUB, when installing Linux. Is it ok if I follow the same procedure with OpenBSD? If not, how would you advise me to go about it? Why don't you follow official guide mentioned zillion of times everywhere around here? http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#Multibooting Did you actually read that ? notice how it stops with Windows Vista/7 ? There's everything you need so best is to start with FAQ, then dive in to man pages (like man afterboot will be pointed to you after install anyway). Nope, not really, not yet. For instance, good luck if you want to install everything on one single disk, and that disk is large enough. We don't have UPT support yet, for instance...
Re: Dual booting OpenBSD and Windows 8.1
Marc Espie said: On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 07:39:41AM +0100, Tomas Bodzar wrote: On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 6:01 AM, za...@gmx.com wrote: Hi I was thinking of dual booting OpenBSd and Windows 8.1. Has anyone managed to do that? I suppose I would have to install Windows first, and then OpenBSD. Does the OpenBSD installation include a boot manager such as GRUB? I have experience setting up dual booting with GRUB, when installing Linux. Is it ok if I follow the same procedure with OpenBSD? If not, how would you advise me to go about it? Why don't you follow official guide mentioned zillion of times everywhere around here? http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#Multibooting Did you actually read that ? notice how it stops with Windows Vista/7 ? I was planning to send a diff - I dualboot OpenBSD and Windows 8.1, and all the steps to set it up are the same. The only thing to keep in mind about Windows 8+ is that it initializes graphics if Windows is chosed as default OS, which takes quite a lot of time. I didn't try GPT setup, though I believe it could be done easily regardless lack of GPT support in OpenBSD. If there is enough interest, I could make a go for GPT Windows and OpenBSD dualboot and send a diff for FAQ if my idea works out. -- Dmitrij D. Czarkoff
Re: Dual booting OpenBSD and Windows 8.1
On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Marc Espie es...@nerim.net wrote: On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 07:39:41AM +0100, Tomas Bodzar wrote: On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 6:01 AM, za...@gmx.com wrote: Hi I was thinking of dual booting OpenBSd and Windows 8.1. Has anyone managed to do that? I suppose I would have to install Windows first, and then OpenBSD. Does the OpenBSD installation include a boot manager such as GRUB? I have experience setting up dual booting with GRUB, when installing Linux. Is it ok if I follow the same procedure with OpenBSD? If not, how would you advise me to go about it? Why don't you follow official guide mentioned zillion of times everywhere around here? http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#Multibooting Did you actually read that ? notice how it stops with Windows Vista/7 ? It stops there because most probably devs were not in touch with Win 8+ to try it, but it works exactly as described for Win 7 There's everything you need so best is to start with FAQ, then dive in to man pages (like man afterboot will be pointed to you after install anyway). Nope, not really, not yet. For instance, good luck if you want to install everything on one single disk, and that disk is large enough. We don't have UPT support yet, for instance... Yeah, having machine which is able to boot good old BIOS and not UEFI only is first thing needed and for the disk size, well most of the laptops under 250GB, newer ones like 1TB, but those mostly some cheap machines have problems to run anything outside of Win/Lin and even those a lot of times with some issues. Reader was warned on start of that chapter that it's not easy task to do multiboot :-)
Re: Dual booting OpenBSD and Windows 8.1
Dmitrij D. Czarkoff said: Did you actually read that ? notice how it stops with Windows Vista/7 ? I was planning to send a diff - I dualboot OpenBSD and Windows 8.1, and all the steps to set it up are the same. The only thing to keep in mind about Windows 8+ is that it initializes graphics if Windows is chosed as default OS, which takes quite a lot of time. Here is the patch for FAQ. My English isn't particularly good, so please fix as needed. I'm not particularly sure 8.1 is worth mention, as Windows 8.1 relates to Windows 8 the same way Windows 7 Service Pack 1 relates to Windows 7. I included it just because of this question here. Index: faq/faq4.html === RCS file: /var/cvs/www/faq/faq4.html,v retrieving revision 1.331 diff -u -p -r1.331 faq4.html --- faq4.html 7 Nov 2013 00:08:45 - 1.331 +++ faq4.html 15 Nov 2013 05:00:40 - @@ -2555,7 +2555,7 @@ For those who find manual configuration a href=http://neosmart.net/dl.php?id=1;EasyBCD/a provides a GUI alternative. -h3Windows 7/h3 +h3Windows 7, 8, 8.1/h3 p Microsoft has enhanced BCD since releasing Vista to allow multiple @@ -2597,6 +2597,14 @@ The operation completed successfully. C:\Windows\system32 /pre/blockquote + +p +Note: starting with Windows 8 Microsoft changed the boot process so that if +Windows is selected as default boot option, bootloader loads graphical +touch-capable boot menu, which takes much more time to start. Conversely, if +OpenBSD is selected as default boot option, the classic console +keyboard-driven menu is presented to the user. Default option may be set in +graphical boot menu itself. h3Other boot loaders/h3 -- Dmitrij D. Czarkoff
Re: Dual booting OpenBSD and Windows 8.1
On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 01:31:49PM +0100, Tomas Bodzar wrote: On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Marc Espie [1]es...@nerim.net wrote: On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 07:39:41AM +0100, Tomas Bodzar wrote: On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 6:01 AM, [2]za...@gmx.com wrote: Hi I was thinking of dual booting OpenBSd and Windows 8.1. Has anyone managed to do that? I suppose I would have to install Windows first, and then OpenBSD. Does the OpenBSD installation include a boot manager such as GRUB? I have experience setting up dual booting with GRUB, when installing Linux. Is it ok if I follow the same procedure with OpenBSD? If not, how would you advise me to go about it? Why don't you follow official guide mentioned zillion of times everywhere around here? [3]http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#Multibooting Did you actually read that ? notice how it stops with Windows Vista/7 ? It stops there because most probably devs were not in touch with Win 8+ to try it, but it works exactly as described for Win 7 *SO WHAT* ? Reread the original question: I was thinking of dual booting OpenBSd and Windows 8.1. Has anyone managed to do that? It is a very specific question. There is *no answer* to that *specific* question in the FAQ. Your answer: Why don't you follow official guide mentioned zillion of times everywhere around here? is not nice at all, and completely unwarranted! the faq doesn't answer that specific question, right now! Yes, newcomers get flamed regularly around there. But *not without justification*. Which is what you just did. You could point the guy at the FAQ, with caveats since the FAQ *doesn't cover his specific case*. But your way of phrasing your answer is not a polite way to put it, and it's completely unjustified !
Re: Dual booting OpenBSD and Windows 8.1
Marc Espie said: You could point the guy at the FAQ, with caveats since the FAQ *doesn't cover his specific case*. But your way of phrasing your answer is not a polite way to put it, and it's completely unjustified ! FAQ never covers one's specific case - it covers general case and has to be applied to the situation. Windows 7 instructions work for Windows 8, and before asking on mailinglist OP should have tried it. If it failed, his query should have been: I tried to set up dualbooting Windows 8.1 with OpenBSD following the advice for Windows 7 from FAQ 4.9, but at the step *N* (command *cmd*) it failed. Did anyone have success with setting up Windows 8 and OpenBSD to play together in dualboot? Instead we got a general query *before* any action. Keep in mind that potential risk boiled down to wasted space on the hard drive, which could be easily reclaimed for OS the OP would prefer if dualboot was impossible. I see no way to defend OP against lack of proper research allegation. -- Dmitrij D. Czarkoff
Re: Dual booting OpenBSD and Windows 8.1
On 2013 Nov 15 (Fri) at 07:01:35 +0100 (+0100), Dmitrij D. Czarkoff wrote: :I see no way to defend OP against lack of proper research allegation. It would be nice though, if people would stop actively being dicks. -- Anybody who doesn't cut his speed at the sight of a police car is probably parked.
Re: Dual booting OpenBSD and Windows 8.1
Peter Hessler said: On 2013 Nov 15 (Fri) at 07:01:35 +0100 (+0100), Dmitrij D. Czarkoff wrote: :I see no way to defend OP against lack of proper research allegation. It would be nice though, if people would stop actively being dicks. When I only came to OpenBSD, my dislike for being slapped in public was a great motivating factor for doing my research before posting. In fact I owe some of my documentation mining skills to the practice you call actively being dicks, and thus I'm not so sure this practice should be regarded as a downside of this list. That's my personal experience, your mileage may vary. -- Dmitrij D. Czarkoff
Re: Dual booting OpenBSD and Windows 8.1
On Thu, November 14, 2013 10:01 pm, Dmitrij D. Czarkoff wrote: Marc Espie said: You could point the guy at the FAQ, with caveats since the FAQ *doesn't cover his specific case*. But your way of phrasing your answer is not a polite way to put it, and it's completely unjustified ! FAQ never covers one's specific case - it covers general case and has to be applied to the situation. Windows 7 instructions work for Windows 8, and before asking on mailinglist OP should have tried it. If it failed, his query should have been: I tried to set up dualbooting Windows 8.1 with OpenBSD following the advice for Windows 7 from FAQ 4.9, but at the step *N* (command *cmd*) it failed. Did anyone have success with setting up Windows 8 and OpenBSD to play together in dualboot? Instead we got a general query *before* any action. Keep in mind that potential risk boiled down to wasted space on the hard drive, which could be easily reclaimed for OS the OP would prefer if dualboot was impossible. I see no way to defend OP against lack of proper research allegation. I think that none should defend the OP, it is a huge problem with FAQ, because they are oriented to people who know/understand OpenBSD. As example, i have used ftp without ftp-proxy; because i am not able to understand how to configure it; there is not a clear explanation in FAQ, and the few references, are not enough to make it correctly. The point probably is that its configuration is so simple that it is not reflected in the FAQ. But, for new users, it is very important to know this unimportant information, and it is usually the case with FAQ; that Unimportant information are omitted. Thanks. PS: If it were possible, i am able to help with it. I can not help in other way! --
Re: Dual booting OpenBSD and Windows 8.1
On Fri, November 15, 2013 10:01, Dmitrij D. Czarkoff wrote: Marc Espie said: You could point the guy at the FAQ, with caveats since the FAQ *doesn't cover his specific case*. But your way of phrasing your answer is not a polite way to put it, and it's completely unjustified ! FAQ never covers one's specific case - it covers general case and has to be applied to the situation. Windows 7 instructions work for Windows 8, and before asking on mailinglist OP should have tried it. If it failed, his query should have been: I can't agree with that. You can test something not in FAQ if you are sure it will make no harm to your system. Dance with bootloaders and partition managers could lead to catastrophe if you make an error. So I think OP is quite right for asking questions than blindly using algorithm for multibooting with Win7. We all know, than M$ always inventing new traps for alternative OS. And their boot process organization is one of that traps. My 0.05RUR I tried to set up dualbooting Windows 8.1 with OpenBSD following the advice for Windows 7 from FAQ 4.9, but at the step *N* (command *cmd*) it failed. Did anyone have success with setting up Windows 8 and OpenBSD to play together in dualboot? Instead we got a general query *before* any action. Keep in mind that potential risk boiled down to wasted space on the hard drive, which could be easily reclaimed for OS the OP would prefer if dualboot was impossible. I see no way to defend OP against lack of proper research allegation.
Re: Dual booting OpenBSD and Windows 8.1
On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 07:01:35AM +0100, Dmitrij D. Czarkoff wrote: Marc Espie said: You could point the guy at the FAQ, with caveats since the FAQ *doesn't cover his specific case*. But your way of phrasing your answer is not a polite way to put it, and it's completely unjustified ! FAQ never covers one's specific case - it covers general case and has to be applied to the situation. Windows 7 instructions work for Windows 8, and before asking on mailinglist OP should have tried it. If it failed, his query should have been: I tried to set up dualbooting Windows 8.1 with OpenBSD following the advice for Windows 7 from FAQ 4.9, but at the step *N* (command *cmd*) it failed. Did anyone have success with setting up Windows 8 and OpenBSD to play together in dualboot? Give the poster the benefit of the doubt ! His question was not answered by the FAQ. I would never *ever* point somebody to a document when the answer to his question was *not* in the document. (I've been known to lurk in misc@ just so I could fix Xr in manpages and whatnot so that next time, people have no excuse). Instead we got a general query *before* any action. Keep in mind that potential risk boiled down to wasted space on the hard drive, which could be easily reclaimed for OS the OP would prefer if dualboot was impossible. Oh really ? you've never managed to put an OS out of commission by trying to multiboot ? you've never had a so-called install program just reclaim all of your hard-drive ? esp. with Windows where it can be *very* tiresome and difficult to track all the pieces you need to reinstall (especially with recent OEM stuff which does not even provide you with any boot media!) I'll put it another way: STOP SCARING NEWCOMERS FROM ASKING LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS! If it's in the faq, and easy to find, then *FINE*, flame away. But if it's not, SHUT THE FUCK UP, or go improve the faq. I want to be able to keep skimming over misc@ and figure out difficulties newcomers will have because our faq/manpages/cross-reference system is not 100% foolproof. You guys who say windows 8.1 is easy are *all welcome* to write the necessary information for the FAQ. Dealing with: - UDFI and legacy mode - UPT - correct boots - other gotcha besides the windows by default switches to gfx mode. I see about ZIP about all that in the current FAQ.
Re: Dual booting OpenBSD and Windows 8.1
Oh really ? you've never managed to put an OS out of commission by trying to multiboot ? you've never had a so-called install program just reclaim all of your hard-drive ? esp. with Windows where it can be *very* tiresome and difficult to track all the pieces you need to reinstall (especially with recent OEM stuff which does not even provide you with any boot media!) I'll put it another way: STOP SCARING NEWCOMERS FROM ASKING LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS! If it's in the faq, and easy to find, then *FINE*, flame away. But if it's not, SHUT THE FUCK UP, or go improve the faq. I want to be able to keep skimming over misc@ and figure out difficulties newcomers will have because our faq/manpages/cross-reference system is not 100% foolproof. You guys who say windows 8.1 is easy are *all welcome* to write the necessary information for the FAQ. Dealing with: - UDFI and legacy mode - UPT - correct boots - other gotcha besides the windows by default switches to gfx mode. I see about ZIP about all that in the current FAQ. Marc has a really good point here. Please stop this pointless debate and instead spend your time contributing to our documentation or helping in other ways.
Re: Dual booting OpenBSD and Windows 8.1
Kirill Bychkov said: I can't agree with that. You can test something not in FAQ if you are sure it will make no harm to your system. Dance with bootloaders and partition managers could lead to catastrophe if you make an error. [snip] Keep in mind that potential risk boiled down to wasted space on the hard drive, which could be easily reclaimed for OS the OP would prefer if dualboot was impossible. Well, I don't really understand the meaning you put behind the word catastrophe, given that the action in subject is the installation of two operating systems. You can't reinstall OS without loosing data, so I assume that all data from hard disks is backed up, and the only resource to waste is the time. Even then, again, given due precausion you don't really risk any data loss for any of the OSs. We all know, than M$ always inventing new traps for alternative OS. Care to elaborate? I'm not aware of any traps regarding disk management. And their boot process organization is one of that traps. Again, care to elaborate? Where's the actual trap? -- Dmitrij D. Czarkoff
Re: Dual booting OpenBSD and Windows 8.1
Marc Espie said: Keep in mind that potential risk boiled down to wasted space on the hard drive, which could be easily reclaimed for OS the OP would prefer if dualboot was impossible. Oh really ? you've never managed to put an OS out of commission by trying to multiboot ? you've never had a so-called install program just reclaim all of your hard-drive ? Not a single time. I'm not actually sure whether any version of Windows ever came with installer that would silently reclaim space - they lean toward failing to occupy free space once they reach something they don't understand. esp. with Windows where it can be *very* tiresome and difficult to track all the pieces you need to reinstall (especially with recent OEM stuff which does not even provide you with any boot media!) When I set the dualboot environment up, I first install the OSs, then set up dualboot, and once it is working I set up the systems. I deny a claim that anyone doing it another way may possibly be right. -- Dmitrij D. Czarkoff
Dual booting OpenBSD and Windows 8.1
Hi I was thinking of dual booting OpenBSd and Windows 8.1. Has anyone managed to do that? I suppose I would have to install Windows first, and then OpenBSD. Does the OpenBSD installation include a boot manager such as GRUB? I have experience setting up dual booting with GRUB, when installing Linux. Is it ok if I follow the same procedure with OpenBSD? If not, how would you advise me to go about it? Thanks Zaf
Re: Dual booting OpenBSD and Windows 8.1
On 2013-11-15 00:01, za...@gmx.com wrote: Hi I was thinking of dual booting OpenBSd and Windows 8.1. Has anyone managed to do that? I suppose I would have to install Windows first, and then OpenBSD. Does the OpenBSD installation include a boot manager such as GRUB? I have experience setting up dual booting with GRUB, when installing Linux. Is it ok if I follow the same procedure with OpenBSD? If not, how would you advise me to go about it? Thanks Zaf I've dual booted 1 OpenBSD machine with Windows 8, not sure if 8.1 is much different. But, I used the Windows bootloader and configured it with a program(for windows) called easybcd.
Re: Dual booting OpenBSD and Windows 8.1
On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 06:01:30AM +0100, za...@gmx.com wrote: I was thinking of dual booting OpenBSd and Windows 8.1. Has anyone managed to do that? I suppose I would have to install Windows first, and then OpenBSD. Does the OpenBSD installation include a boot manager such as GRUB? I have experience setting up dual booting with GRUB, when installing Linux. Is it ok if I follow the same procedure with OpenBSD? If not, how would you advise me to go about it? Get something called EasyBCD for windows. Use that to install their neogrub boot loader, in the configuration of that do something like: root (hd0,1) chainloader +1 the hd for root may be different depending on your machine configuration. This will set up a boot selection for you using the windows boot loader - you will get a chance to select what OS you want to boot, if you select the non-windows option then the machine will reboot into the OS you selected. Microsoft are sneaky and pre-load the windows while the timeout is counting down so it looks like windows boots instantly if you select that. Neogrub is just a port of grub for dos/windows, you can put standard grub commands in there including setting up a grub boot menu if you have more than one OS to boot. -- Brett Lymn Warning: The information contained in this email and any attached files is confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any attachments is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify us immediately. VIRUS: Every care has been taken to ensure this email and its attachments are virus free, however, any loss or damage incurred in using this email is not the sender's responsibility. It is your responsibility to ensure virus checks are completed before installing any data sent in this email to your computer.
Re: Dual booting OpenBSD and Windows 8.1
On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 6:01 AM, za...@gmx.com wrote: Hi I was thinking of dual booting OpenBSd and Windows 8.1. Has anyone managed to do that? I suppose I would have to install Windows first, and then OpenBSD. Does the OpenBSD installation include a boot manager such as GRUB? I have experience setting up dual booting with GRUB, when installing Linux. Is it ok if I follow the same procedure with OpenBSD? If not, how would you advise me to go about it? Why don't you follow official guide mentioned zillion of times everywhere around here? http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#Multibooting As well your question about boot manager is answered here http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq8.html#Bootloader plus much more details for every architecture in man pages, here for i386/amd64 http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=boot_i386apropos=0sektion=0manpath=OpenBSD+Currentarch=i386format=html Simply this is not OS where devs provide crappy or no documentation at all. There's everything you need so best is to start with FAQ, then dive in to man pages (like man afterboot will be pointed to you after install anyway). Nearly everything you want to ask is answered here in fine form. And yes, for multiboot if you will go step by step it will work, but be careful to not wipe out your disk ;-) Thanks Zaf
