Re: : : OpenBSD Install Goal
Douglas A. Tutty wrote: 1) there are no multiple consoles on the install kernel. Ouch! How big a deal would it be to do that? Very, if the installer will still fit on a floppy. Would it be difficult to provide on the CD and perhaps a tarball on FTP a directory structure that would allow an option from the installer (either on the same screen or a separate terminal if that was possible) to run lynx to read the FAQ directly off the CD? http://g.paderni.free.fr/olivebsd/ Doesn't work as part of the install, but at least you can quit the install and look up something if you only have one computer.
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 16:28:48 -0700 "Darren Spruell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Computer users need to get smarter, instead of technology getting dumber for them. I could not disagree more with this statement. Will
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 16:28:48 -0700 "Darren Spruell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > There are resources a-plenty; anyone who finds it confusing is either > trying to install without having read docs, or is not familiar with > computers in the first place (and thus needs to read the docs.) > Computer users need to get smarter, instead of technology getting > dumber for them. True. If someone will not (care to) at least read and try to understand the FAQs on installation, how will this person, continuing to totally ignore documentation, be able to configure and maintain the system anyway? I am new to OpenBSD and I do find most things a little difficult. Installation was the easy part :-) - Ulf
Re: : OpenBSD Install Goal
On 9/19/07, Nick Holland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > did anyone notice that this thread was accidentally brought back > from almost a year ago? > > Raimo Niskanen wrote: > > A lot of people has praised the current OpenBSD installer. > > I too. I think it is at the right level and does the right > > things, without unneccesary hazzle. > > > > But... > > > > There are a few things that I remember really missing when I was > > a beginner, and being nice to beginners is a good thing: > > > > 1) Not every time did I have another machine to go to the > >OpenBSD web site and read the install guide and related docs > >online. It is almost necessary in order to succeed as a beginner, > >and it could be improved upon. > > > >Why not put the install guide and disk partitioning guide on > >the CD (maybe it is), and give very visible hints on how to > >mount and read them during the installation from a parallel > >console (i386) or how to exit to a shell to read during > >installation. > > 1) there are no multiple consoles on the install kernel. > 2) I really think it would be excessively awkward to be trying > to read docs on the same machine you are installing to. > 3) the CD set provides much of this in printed form. > > Granted, I may be an extreme case, but I really can't imagine > there are a lot of people installing OpenBSD on their one-and- > only computer who couldn't have at least printed out some docs > before hand. > > > 1b)Having the partitioning guide available while installing > >is maybe good enough, but it would also be nice if there > >was a disklabel template for large enough disks that > >created / swap /var /tmp /usr sufficient for a potent > >desktop install capable of kernel and ports tree compilation, > >and the rest on /home. > > actually, the FAQ provides a pretty good example for this (if I > do say so myself! :) I've actually been wanting to add some > other partitioning examples (for 1G, 4G, 20G hds with some > specific apps), but obviously it isn't there yet. :-/ > > > 2) Make it more obvious during the installation when the MBR > >gets modified, how and when the MBR code gets modified, > >and how and when the PBR gets written. I was always > >scared to destroy the MBR code and ruin my Windows > >boot (company necessity) - I had to use the NT boot loader. > > > > This is one of those things that you can't win on. > People who understand the process closely will have no problem > seeing where this is happening (covered in the FAQ moderately > well, I think). However, the vast majority of the users don't > understand this, and won't care until AFTER something they > didn't want to happen happens. No amount of red-flag warnings > is going to change this, I suspect. > > The best advice there is in the section about multi-booting > which warns that this is very difficult and easy to mess up > and should be done on a "practice" machine first. > > Unfortunately, many new users want to start on a non-dedicated > machine in spite of all the warnings that this is a really bad > idea (regardless of OS you are a new user on). > > > I understand disk partitioning pretty darned well, I think. I > have had the "interesting" experience of trying to multi-boot > with an OS that claimed to be very multi-boot friendly. The > pretty graphical user interface slowly chewed through the four > or five(!!?) CDs of the install, recognized the other OSs on > the disk...and proceeded to give me a completely non-bootable > disk when I was done. Fortunately, it wasn't too difficult > to fix...with the OpenBSD install CD. :) > > Nick. > > Lean back people. I'm working on DirectX10 and Wii controller support for the installer. For the disc paritioning part you can do the samoan slap dance with the Wii-controller. /Tony
Re: : : OpenBSD Install Goal
On Wed, Sep 19, 2007 at 03:42:22PM +0200, Raimo Niskanen wrote: > On Wed, Sep 19, 2007 at 07:18:05AM -0400, Nick Holland wrote: > > Raimo Niskanen wrote: > > > A lot of people has praised the current OpenBSD installer. > > > I too. I think it is at the right level and does the right > > > things, without unneccesary hazzle. > > > > > > But... > > > > > > There are a few things that I remember really missing when I was > > > a beginner, and being nice to beginners is a good thing: > > > > > > 1) Not every time did I have another machine to go to the > > >OpenBSD web site and read the install guide and related docs > > >online. It is almost necessary in order to succeed as a beginner, > > >and it could be improved upon. > > > > > >Why not put the install guide and disk partitioning guide on > > >the CD (maybe it is), and give very visible hints on how to > > >mount and read them during the installation from a parallel > > >console (i386) or how to exit to a shell to read during > > >installation. > > > > 1) there are no multiple consoles on the install kernel. > > Ouch! How big a deal would it be to do that? > > > 2) I really think it would be excessively awkward to be trying > > to read docs on the same machine you are installing to. > > Yes. But not impossible :-) > > > 3) the CD set provides much of this in printed form. > > But not any good disk partitioning examples. > > > > > Granted, I may be an extreme case, but I really can't imagine > > there are a lot of people installing OpenBSD on their one-and- > > only computer who couldn't have at least printed out some docs > > before hand. > > > > Well, it is hard to know beforehand for the beginner which > documents are worth printing, and for a long while I did not > have a printer. To print the installation guide is unfortunately > not enough. Selected parts of the FAQ or some of the documents > the installation guide points to is also necessary. > > > > 1b)Having the partitioning guide available while installing > > >is maybe good enough, but it would also be nice if there > > >was a disklabel template for large enough disks that > > >created / swap /var /tmp /usr sufficient for a potent > > >desktop install capable of kernel and ports tree compilation, > > >and the rest on /home. And one for really small disks where there is no hope of being able to compile anything; like my current 850 MB drive. According to the docs, that's not enough room. So I have everything in a (/) and b (swap). Once I get the box set up, I'll be able to see what sizes are needed and can reinstall with proper partitioning. /home is quite small. > > > > actually, the FAQ provides a pretty good example for this (if I > > do say so myself! :) I've actually been wanting to add some > > other partitioning examples (for 1G, 4G, 20G hds with some > > specific apps), but obviously it isn't there yet. :-/ > > > > Yes, it is excellent. But the whole FAQ is too much to print. > Especially on my slow dot-matrix printer with a broken ribbon advance. That's a lot of knob-twiddling. :) > > I guess many new users have very good reasons to why they want > to test OpenBSD on a certain machine, and to why it must have > other OSes too. If you have a spare machine you can take to > install an unknown OS (OpenBSD) just for fun, it is probably > because the machine is too old or to broken to be usable. > My 486 now will only run OpenBSD or NetBSD (or old versions of Debian, dos, whatever). Would it be difficult to provide on the CD and perhaps a tarball on FTP a directory structure that would allow an option from the installer (either on the same screen or a separate terminal if that was possible) to run lynx to read the FAQ directly off the CD? Doug.
Re: : : OpenBSD Install Goal
On Wed, Sep 19, 2007 at 07:18:05AM -0400, Nick Holland wrote: > did anyone notice that this thread was accidentally brought back > from almost a year ago? > Nope :-) > Raimo Niskanen wrote: > > A lot of people has praised the current OpenBSD installer. > > I too. I think it is at the right level and does the right > > things, without unneccesary hazzle. > > > > But... > > > > There are a few things that I remember really missing when I was > > a beginner, and being nice to beginners is a good thing: > > > > 1) Not every time did I have another machine to go to the > >OpenBSD web site and read the install guide and related docs > >online. It is almost necessary in order to succeed as a beginner, > >and it could be improved upon. > > > >Why not put the install guide and disk partitioning guide on > >the CD (maybe it is), and give very visible hints on how to > >mount and read them during the installation from a parallel > >console (i386) or how to exit to a shell to read during > >installation. > > 1) there are no multiple consoles on the install kernel. Ouch! > 2) I really think it would be excessively awkward to be trying > to read docs on the same machine you are installing to. Yes. But not impossible :-) > 3) the CD set provides much of this in printed form. But not any good disk partitioning examples. > > Granted, I may be an extreme case, but I really can't imagine > there are a lot of people installing OpenBSD on their one-and- > only computer who couldn't have at least printed out some docs > before hand. > Well, it is hard to know beforehand for the beginner which documents are worth printing, and for a long while I did not have a printer. To print the installation guide is unfortunately not enough. Selected parts of the FAQ or some of the documents the installation guide points to is also necessary. > > 1b)Having the partitioning guide available while installing > >is maybe good enough, but it would also be nice if there > >was a disklabel template for large enough disks that > >created / swap /var /tmp /usr sufficient for a potent > >desktop install capable of kernel and ports tree compilation, > >and the rest on /home. > > actually, the FAQ provides a pretty good example for this (if I > do say so myself! :) I've actually been wanting to add some > other partitioning examples (for 1G, 4G, 20G hds with some > specific apps), but obviously it isn't there yet. :-/ > Yes, it is excellent. But the whole FAQ is too much to print. > > 2) Make it more obvious during the installation when the MBR > >gets modified, how and when the MBR code gets modified, > >and how and when the PBR gets written. I was always > >scared to destroy the MBR code and ruin my Windows > >boot (company necessity) - I had to use the NT boot loader. > > > > This is one of those things that you can't win on. > People who understand the process closely will have no problem > seeing where this is happening (covered in the FAQ moderately > well, I think). However, the vast majority of the users don't > understand this, and won't care until AFTER something they > didn't want to happen happens. No amount of red-flag warnings > is going to change this, I suspect. Perhaps a bit better FAQ coverage would be sufficient. See new suggestions below. > > The best advice there is in the section about multi-booting > which warns that this is very difficult and easy to mess up > and should be done on a "practice" machine first. > > Unfortunately, many new users want to start on a non-dedicated > machine in spite of all the warnings that this is a really bad > idea (regardless of OS you are a new user on). > I guess many new users have very good reasons to why they want to test OpenBSD on a certain machine, and to why it must have other OSes too. If you have a spare machine you can take to install an unknown OS (OpenBSD) just for fun, it is probably because the machine is too old or to broken to be usable. > > I understand disk partitioning pretty darned well, I think. I > have had the "interesting" experience of trying to multi-boot > with an OS that claimed to be very multi-boot friendly. The > pretty graphical user interface slowly chewed through the four > or five(!!?) CDs of the install, recognized the other OSs on > the disk...and proceeded to give me a completely non-bootable > disk when I was done. Fortunately, it wasn't too difficult > to fix...with the OpenBSD install CD. :) > > Nick. Oh yes! Automatic tools shoot you in both feet and give you no way to figure out how to repair. To conclude, what still might be valid suggestions: * How about a section early in the installation guide (FAQ 4) that hints about printing the installation guide and the platform specific file INSTALL.xxx. Also make the INSTALL.xxx files browsable so you can print them from a browser. The installation guide and the INSTALL.xxx file should
Re: : OpenBSD Install Goal
did anyone notice that this thread was accidentally brought back from almost a year ago? Raimo Niskanen wrote: > A lot of people has praised the current OpenBSD installer. > I too. I think it is at the right level and does the right > things, without unneccesary hazzle. > > But... > > There are a few things that I remember really missing when I was > a beginner, and being nice to beginners is a good thing: > > 1) Not every time did I have another machine to go to the >OpenBSD web site and read the install guide and related docs >online. It is almost necessary in order to succeed as a beginner, >and it could be improved upon. > >Why not put the install guide and disk partitioning guide on >the CD (maybe it is), and give very visible hints on how to >mount and read them during the installation from a parallel >console (i386) or how to exit to a shell to read during >installation. 1) there are no multiple consoles on the install kernel. 2) I really think it would be excessively awkward to be trying to read docs on the same machine you are installing to. 3) the CD set provides much of this in printed form. Granted, I may be an extreme case, but I really can't imagine there are a lot of people installing OpenBSD on their one-and- only computer who couldn't have at least printed out some docs before hand. > 1b)Having the partitioning guide available while installing >is maybe good enough, but it would also be nice if there >was a disklabel template for large enough disks that >created / swap /var /tmp /usr sufficient for a potent >desktop install capable of kernel and ports tree compilation, >and the rest on /home. actually, the FAQ provides a pretty good example for this (if I do say so myself! :) I've actually been wanting to add some other partitioning examples (for 1G, 4G, 20G hds with some specific apps), but obviously it isn't there yet. :-/ > 2) Make it more obvious during the installation when the MBR >gets modified, how and when the MBR code gets modified, >and how and when the PBR gets written. I was always >scared to destroy the MBR code and ruin my Windows >boot (company necessity) - I had to use the NT boot loader. > This is one of those things that you can't win on. People who understand the process closely will have no problem seeing where this is happening (covered in the FAQ moderately well, I think). However, the vast majority of the users don't understand this, and won't care until AFTER something they didn't want to happen happens. No amount of red-flag warnings is going to change this, I suspect. The best advice there is in the section about multi-booting which warns that this is very difficult and easy to mess up and should be done on a "practice" machine first. Unfortunately, many new users want to start on a non-dedicated machine in spite of all the warnings that this is a really bad idea (regardless of OS you are a new user on). I understand disk partitioning pretty darned well, I think. I have had the "interesting" experience of trying to multi-boot with an OS that claimed to be very multi-boot friendly. The pretty graphical user interface slowly chewed through the four or five(!!?) CDs of the install, recognized the other OSs on the disk...and proceeded to give me a completely non-bootable disk when I was done. Fortunately, it wasn't too difficult to fix...with the OpenBSD install CD. :) Nick.
Re: : OpenBSD Install Goal
A lot of people has praised the current OpenBSD installer. I too. I think it is at the right level and does the right things, without unneccesary hazzle. But... There are a few things that I remember really missing when I was a beginner, and being nice to beginners is a good thing: 1) Not every time did I have another machine to go to the OpenBSD web site and read the install guide and related docs online. It is almost necessary in order to succeed as a beginner, and it could be improved upon. Why not put the install guide and disk partitioning guide on the CD (maybe it is), and give very visible hints on how to mount and read them during the installation from a parallel console (i386) or how to exit to a shell to read during installation. 1b)Having the partitioning guide available while installing is maybe good enough, but it would also be nice if there was a disklabel template for large enough disks that created / swap /var /tmp /usr sufficient for a potent desktop install capable of kernel and ports tree compilation, and the rest on /home. 2) Make it more obvious during the installation when the MBR gets modified, how and when the MBR code gets modified, and how and when the PBR gets written. I was always scared to destroy the MBR code and ruin my Windows boot (company necessity) - I had to use the NT boot loader. -- / Raimo Niskanen, Erlang/OTP, Ericsson AB
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On 2007/09/18 18:44, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: > To my mind, even a curses interface to cfdisk and disklabel is not > necessary, but a little more help, e.g. a mini-menu along the bottom, > would go a long way. Of course, the best thing is to have a copy of > Absolute OpenBSD and the FAQ open infront of you when you do the > install. The booklet that comes with the CD set is good enough for most purposes (if you're stuck with a small HD, maybe add a pencil and a calculator if you think it'll help)...
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On 9/18/07, Douglas A. Tutty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > You are given a brand new machine; you bring your install CD; and after > > four minutes of using the standard tools (disklabel, fdisk, ifconfig, > > ...) you are already very familiar with, you have a fully working box, > > modulo afterboot. > > The only issue I've seen is that if you are new to OBSD, even if used to > the command line in Linux (not clicky-pointy-lindows) fdisk and > disklabel are new. On linux, the standard non-GUI partitioner is cfdisk > (curses fdisk) while there is not such thing as disklabel). fdisk isn't new; any operating system that has had to partition an i386 system carries along with it the same fdisk-ish pardigm. whether you call it fdisk, or cfdisk, or anaconda disk partitioning, or windows setup, people have been doing the same damn thing for years and shouldn't find differences in implementation intimidating. disklabels aren't a strictly unique thing either; several systems have them. even Linux has to deal with disklabels on non-x86 platforms (e.g. Sun boxen) e.g. http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-sparc.xml?part=1&chap=4. > To my mind, even a curses interface to cfdisk and disklabel is not > necessary, but a little more help, e.g. a mini-menu along the bottom, > would go a long way. Blech. http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq14.html ftp://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/4.1/i386/INSTALL.i386 There are resources a-plenty; anyone who finds it confusing is either trying to install without having read docs, or is not familiar with computers in the first place (and thus needs to read the docs.) Computer users need to get smarter, instead of technology getting dumber for them. DS
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Douglas A. Tutty wrote: [...] > The only issue I've seen is that if you are new to OBSD, even if used to > the command line in Linux (not clicky-pointy-lindows) fdisk and > disklabel are new. On linux, the standard non-GUI partitioner is cfdisk > (curses fdisk) while there is not such thing as disklabel). I think cfdisk is pretty nasty. Standard Linux fdisk, with its highly minimal command-line interface, is far easier to use IMO (but much harder to learn). At least cfdisk is better than the incredibly slow and cumbersome dialog-driven partitioner that Debian has --- I really cannot imagine what they were thinking with that one. Actually, OpenBSD does fall down a bit when it comes to partitioning; it's not just that there are two tools for doing what's pretty much the same job (partitioning chunks of disk), it's that they have such radically different user interfaces. You end up having to learn *two* UIs. I realise that there are implementation reasons why it's necessary to have two apps, but that doesn't help the usability. People might be interested in having a look at Minix's partitioner, part. Minix uses a slice-based system like the BSDs, although with slightly different semantics, and part is a curses-based app that's actually surprisingly easy to use *and* learn, even when doing complicated things. http://minix1.woodhull.com/current/2.0.4/wwwman/man8/part.8.html It's particularly interesting because it has a rather good algorithm for guessing magical values --- point the cursor at a field, and pressing m cycles through all the significant values for that field. It's very rare that I actually have to type a value in; which for something as critical to miscalculation as a partition table is a good design feature. - -- b bb o=o=o< o=o=o=o= o=o=o= o<o=o=o= bbb http://www.cowlark.com bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb b b "There does not now, nor will there ever, exist a programming language in b which it is the least bit hard to write bad programs." --- Flon's Axiom Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG8Fxrf9E0noFvlzgRAtHFAJ9xuoi5AVycWnED4XLguav1EIdjPgCg0pOh ZvwLAZFMIAF2wdQh8tI1bww= =uhyz -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On Tue, Sep 18, 2007 at 07:00:01PM +0200, Jan Stary wrote: > > >>I hope one day soon OpenBSD will adopt a nice ncurses setup similar > > >>to something like FreeBSD with ease to it. > > There is no _need_ for a "nice curses setup" - the current installer > already "has ease to it"w, to put it mildly. In fact, OpenBSD's > installer is the best I have met during my years-long career of > a sysadmin. > > You are given a brand new machine; you bring your install CD; and after > four minutes of using the standard tools (disklabel, fdisk, ifconfig, > ...) you are already very familiar with, you have a fully working box, > modulo afterboot. The only issue I've seen is that if you are new to OBSD, even if used to the command line in Linux (not clicky-pointy-lindows) fdisk and disklabel are new. On linux, the standard non-GUI partitioner is cfdisk (curses fdisk) while there is not such thing as disklabel). To my mind, even a curses interface to cfdisk and disklabel is not necessary, but a little more help, e.g. a mini-menu along the bottom, would go a long way. Of course, the best thing is to have a copy of Absolute OpenBSD and the FAQ open infront of you when you do the install. Doug.
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
> >>I hope one day soon OpenBSD will adopt a nice ncurses setup similar > >>to something like FreeBSD with ease to it. There is no _need_ for a "nice curses setup" - the current installer already "has ease to it"w, to put it mildly. In fact, OpenBSD's installer is the best I have met during my years-long career of a sysadmin. You are given a brand new machine; you bring your install CD; and after four minutes of using the standard tools (disklabel, fdisk, ifconfig, ...) you are already very familiar with, you have a fully working box, modulo afterboot. Jan
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
Geez, a thread that should have died already and I'm contributing to it. I've used FreeBSD and OpenBSD for at least 9 years. I much prefer the OpenBSD installer over the FreeBSD installer any day. If people read just a tiny little bit the OpenBSD install docs they'd realize the OpenBSD method is so much better than the hold holding approach used by FreeBSD. I won't even comment on the majority of Linux installers, except to say they SUCK. my rapidly diminishing in value US$.02 worth diana
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On Fri, 2007-09-14 at 18:55 -0700, asdf wrote: > --- Marco Peereboom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I installed FreeBSD once in my life. Took me 3 tries and I am sure some > > kittens were murdered in the process. I am also pretty sure I wept at > > some point. Honestly I can't remember a much worse installer; maybe SCO > > OpenServer but not by much. > > > > I've used FreeBSD and Linux for some time (> 5 years) now and IMO I don't > think the > FreeBSD installer is _that_ bad. It might be confusing to the first time > novice user > but honestly I've seen worse Linux installers. Linux, the kernel, does not have an installer. Only the GNU variant operating systems using Linux, the kernel, actually have installers. Assuming this is what you meant, could you actually name which ones? > Having said that I think that the OpenBSD installer is awesome. Nothing beats > its > simplicity, and it's one of the few installers I can think of (besides NetBSD > perhaps?) that boots from one floppy disk. How amazing is that??!! > > No need whatsoever to even think of changing the OpenBSD installer - it just > works > so well. I will agree it does, once one overcomes any intimidation factor from getting a tty interface. (Not that there ever was such intimidation for *me*, mind you.) -- Shawn K. Quinn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
--- Marco Peereboom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I installed FreeBSD once in my life. Took me 3 tries and I am sure some > kittens were murdered in the process. I am also pretty sure I wept at > some point. Honestly I can't remember a much worse installer; maybe SCO > OpenServer but not by much. > I've used FreeBSD and Linux for some time (> 5 years) now and IMO I don't think the FreeBSD installer is _that_ bad. It might be confusing to the first time novice user but honestly I've seen worse Linux installers. Guess it comes down to the degree of familiarity and I have become familiar enough with the FreeBSD installer that I can install any of their 4.X - 6.X releases without any problems on a standard i386 system. Having said that I think that the OpenBSD installer is awesome. Nothing beats its simplicity, and it's one of the few installers I can think of (besides NetBSD perhaps?) that boots from one floppy disk. How amazing is that??!! No need whatsoever to even think of changing the OpenBSD installer - it just works so well. On the Linux side, I rather like Debian's netinst installer - its the closest to OpenBSD in simplicity and ease of use. Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On 9/14/07, Pau Amaro-Seoane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Please don't touch the installer. It's just perfect. Ditto. Talking to new users, the feedback I get is that they tend to screw up partitioning, but other than that, no substantial complaints about the install process. Sure, it's not pretty, but I don't want a pretty installer! If I want pretty I'll buy more posters, or campaign for another run of puffy plush. Kevin
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
> Anyway, a while later he comes back and says, "It's done! I couldn't > believe how easy it was." This mirrors my (linux-coloured) experience of trying an OpenBSD install for the first time. -- steev http://www.daikaiju.org.uk/~steve/
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 10:44:57AM -0600, Steven wrote: > > > >You no likey, you no usey! > > > I do hope you realize that Bob didn't post what you were replying > too. :-) Yes. I just replied to the list only. > > At this point, I'd like to chime in and say that I find the > text-based OpenBSD installer useful the way it is, and don't wish it > to go the ncurses/gui route. Amen. It is FANTASTIC for serial console installs on remote boxes! (i.e: at lunch break at work, I can shell into a box at home, serial to another, ftp down the next release bsd.rd & reboot to install the new OS before lunch is over. Nice) -- Craig Skinner | http://www.kepax.co.uk | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007, Stuart Henderson wrote: On 2007/09/14 12:55, Edwards, David (JTS) wrote: Have you ever tried to do an install of FreeBSD/Linux using a 9600 serial console? Oh thanks, I'd been trying to erase that from memory (-: FreeBSD, 9600 serial, PXE boot. Took the best part of a day... Last time i did that was on my soekris. Took about 25 minutes to get all the base files on my desktop and set up dhcpd to boot the soekris, about 10 minutes fooling around with cables and about 3-4 minutes to install. ...off the serial cable... Easy. I prefer the text based install to Almost any other installer. Almost any other... --- marina brown
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
One of the other sysadmins where I work has mostly used Linux, and got used to their various hand-holding tactics. I've been gradually moving us over to OpenBSD (and got them to purchase a CD set, and hopefully some meager donations soon). Usually, I handle the installation and administration, but he got stuck doing one. I pointed him to the very good install FAQ, which he read, and came back with, "Man, it's been a long time since I've done any of this. I'm really nervous." Anyway, a while later he comes back and says, "It's done! I couldn't believe how easy it was." The only other point I'd make is that the current install method is just intimidating enough to discourage some folks that don't know enough yet to successfully run OpenBSD, although that's probably not intentional. I've seen too many good products ruined by the demands of people that don't understand what they're demanding, and it's good to see a product developed by a team that resists the mentality that you should always give the user what they ask for. - R.
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
* Craig Skinner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070914 03:15]: Bob Beck wrote: I hope one day soon OpenBSD will adopt a nice ncurses setup similar to something like FreeBSD with ease to it. As OpenBSD grows there simply is no reason, or logic to keeping around such an archaic method of installation it now uses. You no likey, you no usey! I do hope you realize that Bob didn't post what you were replying too. :-) At this point, I'd like to chime in and say that I find the text-based OpenBSD installer useful the way it is, and don't wish it to go the ncurses/gui route. What the developers and Theo decide is up to them. -- W. Steven Schneider <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
My $0.02...I've tried MANY different flavors of *BSD, Linux, etc. and I firmly think that OpenBSD's installer is exactly as it should be. It works well and doesn't need eye candy to make it work better. I can do a CD install in 20 minutes...you can't beat that. If you want more eye candy go try a Linux flavor or PCBSD...leave OpenBSD alone. IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On 9/14/07, Craig Skinner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > To stay informed of new features, please supply your support contract > number on the page http://www.openbsd.org/update-me-when-stuff-is-done/ Unfortunately, 404 compliant. -- "This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity." -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation.
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On 9/13/07, Jason Dixon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't. The OpenBSD installer is a very underrated part of the > overall user experience. What other OS can you install in 3 minutes > flat? Keep it simple, stupid. Oh noes, you don't understand. See, I have a shaggy dog tale that demonstrates why people want the nice ncurses installer. And if you give them a ncurses installer, now, they'll want an X based installer. And if you... Anyway, I used to work for a company uses novell, and we were a contractor to a much bigger company for somethings. We wrote a "fax replacement", so instead of faxing 20,000 pages a night, we scanned and dropped it in a directory, and the mothership picked it up, and used it. But they wanted to print as well (to their new printers), and it would not print, obviously my application problem. I told my boss they just needed their novell guy to set up the rights on the new printers, but, my boss told me to go on down, for "customer service". *sigh* So, I told them I need one of the users to be there, and someone with admin rights. I went. Brought up printcon, and other various things, peeked and poked[1] around. Satisfied to myself that it was a rights issue, pointed out to the "novell administrator" hanging around. Brought up a dos box, and was doing things like pings and telnets, and the "novell administrator" went "yucks, you're one of those DOS people". And this was mid/late 90s, win95/nt4 days. Ignored him. As I left, I overheard him complaining to a friend that he's been there x months, and they have not given him any rights, and he doesn't understand why, he is supergood+2, and knows everything, and so on and so forth. Then he admitted he didn't know dos very well, and in fact, took the dos class 3 times, and failed it 3 times. And this, people, is why you need to have ncurses based installer. Or not. [1] Man, I used to be able to do some of that, and even knew what the values were. -- "This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity." -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation.
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007, Marco Peereboom wrote: > I installed FreeBSD once in my life. Took me 3 tries and I am sure some > kittens were murdered in the process. I am also pretty sure I wept at > some point. Honestly I can't remember a much worse installer; maybe SCO > OpenServer but not by much. Me too with F'BSD. A worse installer was present from Redhat, around Fedora 5, I think (maybe 10 years ago). It demanded a VGA monitor, IIRC, among many other sillinesses. OpenBSD's installation is a breath of cool, clear mountain air. It even teaches what "installation" is, if one is attentive. It's a definite selling point to me. It's archaic, thank the gods. My first OpenBSD installation was 2.x, done by building from a borrowed SCSI drive laying on the desk on the end of kludged cables, on a pmax running Ultrix with most of the Ultrix userland unavailable, it being on a remote afs system. *IT WENT WITHOUT A HITCH*, including the X11R5 server. I ran and updated those pmaxes for years, (after the initial installation, by ftp from an i386 on the LAN), until the hardware died of old age. (Anybody need the hockey puck mice?) I got so I was running Open on an 386sx with no fpx and about 9MB of memory and something like a 100MB disk. It wouldn't auto install, but one could, *knowing what was involved through study of the pellucid installation script and the short printed document*, do it with a second host. (It needed a custom kernel to really save memory, so I would build that on another host, and make my own installation floppy with it.) This sort of experience builds True Believers. Dave -- "America ... might become dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit." -- John Quincy Adams, July 4, 1821
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
PS: From http://wiki.freebsd.org/finstall/Amnesiac "the "novice" track, meaning as little interaction with the user as possible" This is what I meant... 2007/9/14, Pau Amaro-Seoane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Please don't touch the installer. It's just perfect. > > I have tried tons of different unix/linux OS's before I saw The Light > and, pay attention, NONE of them was as reliable/robust/quick as > OpenBSD's > > And guess... FreeBSD is getting a graphical installer: > > http://blogs.freebsdish.org/ivoras/2007/08/29/finstall-alpha-version/ > > OpenBSD, along with the venerable and respectable linux slackare, is > going to be one of the last bastions. > > Please no fancy installers, please no fancy GUIs!! > > Regarding multibooting, I struggled with this a bit and then decided > to put _all_ information in a kind of summary. If you want to have a > look: > > http://www.aei.mpg.de/~pau/zen_process_obsd.html > > This is meant for people wishing to migrate from linux to OpenBSD, as I did. > > The INSTALL.linux was too... spartan for me. Dave helped me and I put > together the information. I hope this helps somebody. > > keep the installer as it is > > Pau
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
Please don't touch the installer. It's just perfect. I have tried tons of different unix/linux OS's before I saw The Light and, pay attention, NONE of them was as reliable/robust/quick as OpenBSD's And guess... FreeBSD is getting a graphical installer: http://blogs.freebsdish.org/ivoras/2007/08/29/finstall-alpha-version/ OpenBSD, along with the venerable and respectable linux slackare, is going to be one of the last bastions. Please no fancy installers, please no fancy GUIs!! Regarding multibooting, I struggled with this a bit and then decided to put _all_ information in a kind of summary. If you want to have a look: http://www.aei.mpg.de/~pau/zen_process_obsd.html This is meant for people wishing to migrate from linux to OpenBSD, as I did. The INSTALL.linux was too... spartan for me. Dave helped me and I put together the information. I hope this helps somebody. keep the installer as it is Pau 2007/9/14, Paul de Weerd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 08:36:11AM +0100, Stuart Henderson wrote: > | On 2007/09/14 12:55, Edwards, David (JTS) wrote: > | > Have you ever tried to do an install of FreeBSD/Linux using a 9600 > | > serial console? > | > | Oh thanks, I'd been trying to erase that from memory (-: > | FreeBSD, 9600 serial, PXE boot. Took the best part of a day... > > I hardly notice the difference when installing OpenBSD over serial (vs > over glass console). It's the same amazing graceful text-only > interface that asks me some basic questions and installs fine. > > Indeed, the only 'hard' part is when it comes to partitioning, > especially when multibooting. But once you've done this a couple of > times and you know how it works, you'll learn to dislike all the other > installers for being way to complicated. > > Thanks guys ! > > Paul 'WEiRD' de Weerd > > -- > >[<++>-]<+++.>+++[<-->-]<.>+++[<+ > +++>-]<.>++[<>-]<+.--.[-] > http://www.weirdnet.nl/
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 08:36:11AM +0100, Stuart Henderson wrote: | On 2007/09/14 12:55, Edwards, David (JTS) wrote: | > Have you ever tried to do an install of FreeBSD/Linux using a 9600 | > serial console? | | Oh thanks, I'd been trying to erase that from memory (-: | FreeBSD, 9600 serial, PXE boot. Took the best part of a day... I hardly notice the difference when installing OpenBSD over serial (vs over glass console). It's the same amazing graceful text-only interface that asks me some basic questions and installs fine. Indeed, the only 'hard' part is when it comes to partitioning, especially when multibooting. But once you've done this a couple of times and you know how it works, you'll learn to dislike all the other installers for being way to complicated. Thanks guys ! Paul 'WEiRD' de Weerd -- >[<++>-]<+++.>+++[<-->-]<.>+++[<+ +++>-]<.>++[<>-]<+.--.[-] http://www.weirdnet.nl/
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
Bob Beck wrote: I hope one day soon OpenBSD will adopt a nice ncurses setup similar to something like FreeBSD with ease to it. As OpenBSD grows there simply is no reason, or logic to keeping around such an archaic method of installation it now uses. You no likey, you no usey! Please keep me informed if you will, I'd love to hear the thoughts, and ideas on this possible progress. To stay informed of new features, please supply your support contract number on the page http://www.openbsd.org/update-me-when-stuff-is-done/
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On Friday 14 September 2007 06:15, you wrote: > Marco Peereboom wrote: > > I installed FreeBSD once in my life. Took me 3 tries and I am sure some > > kittens were murdered in the process. I am also pretty sure I wept at > > some point. Honestly I can't remember a much worse installer; maybe SCO > > OpenServer but not by much. > > I second that! If FreeBSD is the OP's model for positive software > evolution, then I am glad that OpenBSD has left the 'archaic' installer > more or less alone, and concentrated on high quality additions to the > meat and potatoes of the project, namely the tools and drivers in the OS > itself. Just a me too - I first installed OpenBSD on an old 486, and have since put it on lots of different things. I am a rank amateur and have neither the time nor the innate ability to become a unix expert. The OBSD installer, once you've 'got it' (and to get it you only have to read the instructions) is *excellent* and I've never used better. Installing and upgrading OBSD (including the completely transformed and beautiful packaging system) is an absolute model and provides so many ways to cope with so many unpredictable situations. It is certainly a great deal easier than FreeBSD IMHO, and while I may have naively and misguidedly thought that it would have been nicer to have a more graphical approach when I first encountered the system, I would now hate to see its power, cross-platform solidity and simplicity changed. Best Fergus > > Theo was just posting about 'gimme gimme gimme culture' and look what > rears up and slobbers all over this list! > > Breeno -- Fergus Wilde Chetham's Library Long Millgate Manchester M3 1SB Tel: 0161 834 7961 Fax: 0161 839 5797 http://www.chethams.org.uk
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On 2007/09/14 12:55, Edwards, David (JTS) wrote: > Have you ever tried to do an install of FreeBSD/Linux using a 9600 > serial console? Oh thanks, I'd been trying to erase that from memory (-: FreeBSD, 9600 serial, PXE boot. Took the best part of a day...
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On 9/14/07, Karl Sjvdahl - dunceor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 9/14/07, Bob Beck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I hope one day soon OpenBSD will adopt a nice ncurses setup similar to something like FreeBSD with ease to it. for what my opinion is worth, I kinda like the OpenBSD installer the way it is now.. the new ISO cd is very welcomed ( Thanks Guys) even if someone did fit a FreeBSD type installer on the required media, where does it stop? before you know it you will be asking for a 3D video driver and Compiz-fusion based installer. Sam Fourman Jr.
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On 9/14/07, Bob Beck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I hope one day soon OpenBSD will adopt a nice ncurses setup similar to > > something like FreeBSD with ease to it. > > I don't think it's worth putting my efforts into. The current > installer is about the easiest thing I have to deal with from AIX, 4 > linux distributions, and FreeBSD. > > > As OpenBSD grows there simply is no reason, or logic to keeping around such > > an archaic method of installation it now uses. > > > > Please keep me informed if you will, I'd love to hear the thoughts, and > > ideas on this possible progress. > > I await your diffs! Please feel free to write one that works, and > fits on the install media for 10 architectures. > > > > > OpenBSD is developed by volunteers, 10 years of development, don't you > > think with all this man power and ability, after all these years it's time > > to evolve a little? > > I 100% Agree with you. so after 10 years of use, you should become one > of those volunteers and write such a thing. > > > > > Remember this is an OS, and part of the process of creating one is the > > evolution in making it a more simpler, and productive tool. > > > > We must rethink our ideas with these systems that they are tools to help > > us, not us having to work on them all the time in order to get them to do > > something, otherwise where is the progress and productivity in this? > > > > > > I remember a day when I personally sat around playing most of the time > > trying to get something to work, rather then getting work done, those days > > must end, and the tools must finally emerge as just that, TOOLS to help us > > accomplish something, not sitting around trying to. > > Personally I find driving an ncurses based install much more tedious > playing than chucking a site_install script in site42.tgz, booting off > the net and installing, as I've used the freebsd and SLS and ubunty > and solaris and aix and blah blah blah installers. All the rest of them > require more of my time in front of the keyboard. > > However I'm sure with your fabulous ideas your ncurses based installer > for openbsd will stop that trend and be much better - since you'll be working > on something that's useful to you and you are passionate about. > > > > > Thank you for your time in this matter. > > > > Scott Richman > > Thank you for volunteering. I await your code. > > -Bob > > I can't understand what is the problem with the installer. It's so damn easy. The installer isn't something that is keeping people away from using OpenBSD. Time spent on adding features, new drivers and improvments on all areas is much more important than trying to 'improve' something that already works great. BR dunceor
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
Marco Peereboom wrote: I installed FreeBSD once in my life. Took me 3 tries and I am sure some kittens were murdered in the process. I am also pretty sure I wept at some point. Honestly I can't remember a much worse installer; maybe SCO OpenServer but not by much. I second that! If FreeBSD is the OP's model for positive software evolution, then I am glad that OpenBSD has left the 'archaic' installer more or less alone, and concentrated on high quality additions to the meat and potatoes of the project, namely the tools and drivers in the OS itself. Theo was just posting about 'gimme gimme gimme culture' and look what rears up and slobbers all over this list! Breeno
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
Hi, > -Original Message- > On Behalf Of Marco Peereboom > Sent: Friday, 14 September 2007 12:03 PM > > I installed FreeBSD once in my life. Took me 3 tries and I > am sure some > kittens were murdered in the process. I am also pretty sure I wept at > some point. Honestly I can't remember a much worse > installer; maybe SCO > OpenServer but not by much. Just interested in why you think it's so bad? I've installed just about everything that's been around, going way back to Linux SLS and I find the OpenBSD install better than all of them! I'd guess it might be related to the reason I use BSD. I find Linux a far better desktop and only use *BSD for important stuff. Given that, a 5 minute install without all the bells and whistles is just brilliant. Or maybe it's my background where I'm more than comfortable on the command line and find ncurses stuff painful and unnecessary. Have you ever tried to do an install of FreeBSD/Linux using a 9600 serial console? ciao dave --- Dave Edwards
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
Darren Spruell wrote: I've found times where a default layout would have been useful, but on the other hand I've been bitten more than once by a default layout (from the sysinstall [A]utomatic partitioner) that didn't set up a big enough /tmp for my needs. The result was spending extra time reinstalling to do it right the second time around. You're also assuming that the automatic partitioner would allocate the entire disk... There are other issues, too; /usr/ports and /usr/src, /usr/obj, databases and logs and spools in /var, the list goes on.
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
Just to share my personal experiences with the OpenBSD Installer, I thought I would add to this thread. I was a Free OS's *nix newbie trying to get around. At first, I tried Beta Stampede Linux, but it couldn't handle the hardware on my laptop. I could not figure out how to fix it, and it took me hours to read and guess about how it was supposed to boot up. Then I tried a Suse disc that someone gave me. Seemed to install great, except for the fact that it *didn't* work afterwards, and I couldn't figure out what on earth was going on. So, then Mandrake, but that just plain didn't work. Enter OpenBSD. I read a few docs, that take maybe half an hour to an hour, figure out a partition scheme, install. First try, first settings, system boots, and works: I am an OpenBSD fan since. Hardware was all recognized, the boot worked without bugging up with X (at that time my graphics card was a bit weird), and my media drives were all easily detected. Does it get any easier? -- ((name "Aaron Hsu") (email/xmpp "[EMAIL PROTECTED]") (phone "703-597-7656") (site "http://www.aaronhsu.com";))
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
I installed FreeBSD once in my life. Took me 3 tries and I am sure some kittens were murdered in the process. I am also pretty sure I wept at some point. Honestly I can't remember a much worse installer; maybe SCO OpenServer but not by much.
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On 9/13/07, Steve Shockley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Bob Beck wrote: > >> As OpenBSD grows there simply is no reason, or logic to keeping > >> around such an archaic method of installation it now uses. > > > I await your diffs! Please feel free to write one that works, and > > fits on the install media for 10 architectures. > > I assume you're only encouraging this because it's likely impossible. > Frankly, I find the FreeBSD installer somewhat confusing. About the > only thing that would maybe make the OpenBSD installer simpler for new > (or impatient) users would be a "default" disk layout with sane > partition sizes for /, /tmp, /var, /usr, etc. Of course I rarely > install OpenBSD on non-x86 boxes but I'm sure sane defaults for x86 are > quite different than mac68k or hppa. I've found times where a default layout would have been useful, but on the other hand I've been bitten more than once by a default layout (from the sysinstall [A]utomatic partitioner) that didn't set up a big enough /tmp for my needs. The result was spending extra time reinstalling to do it right the second time around. In almost all cases I think it's worth just being forced to think about my needs a bit more up front rather than trusting technology to do it for me. _Especially_ in cases where an autopartition scheme is involved (several OSes come to mind...) DS
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
Bob Beck wrote: As OpenBSD grows there simply is no reason, or logic to keeping around such an archaic method of installation it now uses. I await your diffs! Please feel free to write one that works, and fits on the install media for 10 architectures. I assume you're only encouraging this because it's likely impossible. Frankly, I find the FreeBSD installer somewhat confusing. About the only thing that would maybe make the OpenBSD installer simpler for new (or impatient) users would be a "default" disk layout with sane partition sizes for /, /tmp, /var, /usr, etc. Of course I rarely install OpenBSD on non-x86 boxes but I'm sure sane defaults for x86 are quite different than mac68k or hppa. (In my defense, i do have a Sparc Classic and several mac68ks here. Great machines for [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:35:35 -0400, Stephan Andre' wrote: I hope one day soon OpenBSD will adopt a nice ncurses setup similar to something like FreeBSD with ease to it. Honestly, I don't see why. How does making the installer more complicated is going to "help" anything. I recently sat a friend down to show how easy an install was. This was on a 400MHz Dell with a 10G disk. Putting the disk in the box to having a system that booted up took 11 minutes, with me making comments about each step. Once the machine came up, I said it was done, the system was ready to use. To me easy of install and improvements is what's already done and added time to time that show really how this is so easy and better. Example, sure here is one that I notice in 4.2 and the first time, I read it as it was different and I was use to always do the same thing, may be not in 3 minutes flat like J.C., but may be 4:15. I guess he has faster box then me. (;> Anyway, to the point. In 4.2 there is the new way to specify your ntp server at the install time. I always use to go back in and change it manually every time. Now I don't have to, so it shave a few seconds in the install now for sure. That's improvements. GUI and what not doesn't add anything and actually slow down the process. Simple is better. Now, if you were talking about adding a way to change the root destination in the aliases at install time and allow me to specify it, then that would improvements as well and I wouldn't have to go back in and change it each time as well. This might get me closer to J.C. results in install time! (;> Great job guys! (;> Thanks Daniel
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:35:35 -0400, Stephan Andre' wrote: >> I hope one day soon OpenBSD will adopt a nice ncurses setup similar >> to something like FreeBSD with ease to it. > >Honestly, I don't see why. How does making the installer more >complicated is going to "help" anything. > >I recently sat a friend down to show how easy an install was. This >was on a 400MHz Dell with a 10G disk. Putting the disk in the box >to having a system that booted up took 11 minutes, with me >making comments about each step. > >Once the machine came up, I said it was done, the system was ready >to use. > >" You mean, thats all?" > >Yes, I replied and left him to playing with Perl Damn right STeve, I did a similar demo to the techs at the outfit that builds boxes for me. Install on a brand new box from CD with explanation of partitioning and turning on httpd and having another box with a browser showing the "It worked!" page in 15 minutes. As to the original poster's "something like FreeBSD with ease to it." I have never been able to be confident in that piece of pretend gui-ness. There is no clarity about it and I forever feel that it's the only installer I've ever used where I wished for a comprehensive manual in hard copy. Given that I joined IBM in 1962 and only quit instructing for them a couple of years back, that covers a few installations There are some things (very few) that I could use in Free that aren't in Open. Spending loads of time with that crappy installer is too high a price. Rod/ Me...a skeptic? I trust you have proof.
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
> I hope one day soon OpenBSD will adopt a nice ncurses setup similar > to something like FreeBSD with ease to it. Honestly, I don't see why. How does making the installer more complicated is going to "help" anything. I recently sat a friend down to show how easy an install was. This was on a 400MHz Dell with a 10G disk. Putting the disk in the box to having a system that booted up took 11 minutes, with me making comments about each step. Once the machine came up, I said it was done, the system was ready to use. " You mean, thats all?" Yes, I replied and left him to playing with Perl --STeve Andre'
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On Sep 13, 2007, at 6:49 PM, Bob Beck wrote: I hope one day soon OpenBSD will adopt a nice ncurses setup similar to something like FreeBSD with ease to it. I don't think it's worth putting my efforts into. The current installer is about the easiest thing I have to deal with from AIX, 4 linux distributions, and FreeBSD. I don't think anyone else is clamoring for it, either. I have to go back in the misc@ archives over 4 years to find any pointed complaints of the installer. Sysinstall is a bloated mess that provides no value. You're basically taking some of the afterboot(8) tasks and shoving them where they don't need to be. As OpenBSD grows there simply is no reason, or logic to keeping around such an archaic method of installation it now uses. Please keep me informed if you will, I'd love to hear the thoughts, and ideas on this possible progress. I await your diffs! Please feel free to write one that works, and fits on the install media for 10 architectures. I don't. The OpenBSD installer is a very underrated part of the overall user experience. What other OS can you install in 3 minutes flat? Keep it simple, stupid. --- Jason Dixon DixonGroup Consulting http://www.dixongroup.net
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On Sep 13, 2007, at 5:26 PM, Matthias Kilian wrote: Fancy curses interfaces or even high-resolution progress bars with dancing puffy animations won't change this. Speak for yourself ... my professional life would be profoundly changed by dancing puffy animations during the OpenBSD install ... :-) -- Jack J. Woehr Director of Development Absolute Performance, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 303-443-7000 ext. 527
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 04:49:26PM -0600, Bob Beck wrote: > > I hope one day soon OpenBSD will adopt a nice ncurses setup > > similar to something like FreeBSD with ease to it. [...] > > As OpenBSD grows there simply is no reason, or logic to keeping > > around such an archaic method of installation it now uses. > > > > Please keep me informed if you will, I'd love to hear the > > thoughts, and ideas on this possible progress. > > I await your diffs! Please feel free to write one that works, and > fits on the install media for 10 architectures. Oh, please. Even it it fits, it would be useless. Installation is sequential (find disks, fdisk them (on i386-like archs), disklabel them, choose install sets, install). Fancy curses interfaces or even high-resolution progress bars with dancing puffy animations won't change this. Ciao, Kili ps: this is mainly adressed to the OP, and obviously not to beck@ ;-) -- What is this? Some kind of grep bitten by a radioactive spider? -- William S. Yerazunis about the crm114 interpreter in "The CRM114 Discriminator Revealed!"
Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
> I hope one day soon OpenBSD will adopt a nice ncurses setup similar to > something like FreeBSD with ease to it. I don't think it's worth putting my efforts into. The current installer is about the easiest thing I have to deal with from AIX, 4 linux distributions, and FreeBSD. > As OpenBSD grows there simply is no reason, or logic to keeping around such > an archaic method of installation it now uses. > > Please keep me informed if you will, I'd love to hear the thoughts, and ideas > on this possible progress. I await your diffs! Please feel free to write one that works, and fits on the install media for 10 architectures. > > OpenBSD is developed by volunteers, 10 years of development, don't you think > with all this man power and ability, after all these years it's time to > evolve a little? I 100% Agree with you. so after 10 years of use, you should become one of those volunteers and write such a thing. > > Remember this is an OS, and part of the process of creating one is the > evolution in making it a more simpler, and productive tool. > > We must rethink our ideas with these systems that they are tools to help us, > not us having to work on them all the time in order to get them to do > something, otherwise where is the progress and productivity in this? > > > I remember a day when I personally sat around playing most of the time trying > to get something to work, rather then getting work done, those days must end, > and the tools must finally emerge as just that, TOOLS to help us accomplish > something, not sitting around trying to. Personally I find driving an ncurses based install much more tedious playing than chucking a site_install script in site42.tgz, booting off the net and installing, as I've used the freebsd and SLS and ubunty and solaris and aix and blah blah blah installers. All the rest of them require more of my time in front of the keyboard. However I'm sure with your fabulous ideas your ncurses based installer for openbsd will stop that trend and be much better - since you'll be working on something that's useful to you and you are passionate about. > > Thank you for your time in this matter. > > Scott Richman Thank you for volunteering. I await your code. -Bob
