Re: Why isn't OpenBSD in Google Summer of Code 2017?...
On 6 Apr 2017 12:59 am, "Luke Small" wrote: I suspect that unless you really know what you are doing, you'll never satisfy the OpenBSD gods. I suspect that there is a good reason that pkg_add was rewritten in perl. I suspect because it may have been written in perl. And just like that a good idea wasn't completely done in another way. There are no "OpenBSD" gods. Only a few developer with something like 20 years of experience writing C code. They managed to work for a project that value good work as much as they do. So of course they won't let any junk in the tree. And saying stuff like "we could do privsep later" won't help. If you need an example of how to do it the right way, look at xwallpaper. Someone found something to improve. They have done that and put the code somewhere accessible. I might end up in the tree, it might not. Who know ? Two years ago, I was told there is a lot of work to do on the usb stack.
Re: Why isn't OpenBSD in Google Summer of Code 2017?...
I suspect that unless you really know what you are doing, you'll never satisfy the OpenBSD gods. I suspect that there is a good reason that pkg_add was rewritten in perl. I suspect because it may have been written in perl. And just like that a good idea wasn't completely done in another way. On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 9:55 AM Jacob L. Leifman wrote: > Security and correctness should never be an after-thought. Have you > done any real software development? And have you ever tried to find > your way through cruddy code? 999 times out of 1000 it is less painful > and much more effective to rewrite from scratch. So what's the point of > having that previous iteration? > > On 5 Apr 2017 at 13:10, Luke Small wrote: > > > I imagine there are some projects that need some love that are on the > back > > burner at the moment that could use some hacking; even if it is totally > > redone later by someone that wants to refactor it for privsep and such. > > On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 4:21 PM Theo de Raadt > wrote: > > > > > Pete, you propose a waste of time. > > > > > > Everyone has the source code. Everyone can run it. Everyone can see > > > the problems other people report, and the things which are not > supported. > > > > > > Everyone already can tell what needs improving. Everyone has a brain, > > > and can come up with their own goals. > > > > > > If they don't come up with goals, there's nothing we can write which > > > will change anything. > > > > > > Finally, not everyone has time. It would not be time spent well making > > > lists for other people who may or may not perform. > > > > > > > Would the devs consider compiling a list of specific improvements > they'd > > > like > > > > to see volunteer'd upon this summer? I'd love to help especially if > it > > > was a > > > > group effort/friendly competition. > > > > > > > > > > > > From: owner-m...@openbsd.org on behalf of > Bob > > > Beck > > > > > > > > Sent: April 2, 2017 10:16:21 PM > > > > To: Luke Small > > > > Cc: openbsd-misc > > > > Subject: Re: Why isn't OpenBSD in Google Summer of Code 2017?... > > > > > > > > We tried it for two years, it was too much effort on the part of the > > > > foundation organizers mentors to deal with the bureaucracy involved, > and > > > we > > > > didn't really see enough > > > > return in terms of new developers to the project, which, frankly > being > > > > selfish on OpenBSD's part is the only reason for us to do it. > > > > > > > > Both Ken Westerback and I organized our end of it and dealt with the > > > google > > > > paperwork the two years we did it, Neither of us is willing to do it > > > again, > > > > and while I won't > > > > directly speak for Ken, I would not support us spending effort on > this > > > when > > > > there are lots of other things to do.. It just doesn't have the > benefit > > > for > > > > OpenBSD, especially > > > > in light of the effort of the volunteers necessary to participate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Luke Small > wrote:
Re: Why isn't OpenBSD in Google Summer of Code 2017?...
Bring on the Flaming Theo! On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 3:55 PM Flipchan wrote: > Ping Theo, couldnt someone create a needs improvments list n put it on > like OpenBSD.org? > > Luke Small skrev: (2 april 2017 16:54:39 CEST) > > > -- > Sincerly flipchan - LayerProx dev
Re: Why isn't OpenBSD in Google Summer of Code 2017?...
2017-04-05 22:55 GMT+02:00 Flipchan : > Ping Theo, couldnt someone create a needs improvments list n put it on like > OpenBSD.org? No. You've got an itch to scratch, fix that. Best Martin
Re: Why isn't OpenBSD in Google Summer of Code 2017?...
Ping Theo, couldnt someone create a needs improvments list n put it on like OpenBSD.org? Luke Small skrev: (2 april 2017 16:54:39 CEST) > -- Sincerly flipchan - LayerProx dev
Re: Why isn't OpenBSD in Google Summer of Code 2017?...
This can all be done without GSoC, and OpenBSD is better off without it. Obviously I cannot speak on behalf of any OpenBSD developers here, this is just my thoughts based on observations of other open-source projects that did GSoC over the years. Some students were shit, letting the projects down and putting them at risk of getting less slots allocated the next time. Some suffered psychologically while trying to keep up with the GSoC requirements and tight scheduling. Some were forced to rush things along the way and cut out bits of work to submit their code by the due date. When OpenBSD last participated in the GSoC, there were good projects such as Capsicum, HAMMER2, Async. USB I/O, and some others. There were no status updates or info. Again, I'm not sure what happened, but it wouldn't surprise me if the OpenBSD project faced issues like the above. On Wed, 05 Apr 2017 13:10:55 + Luke Small wrote: > I imagine there are some projects that need some love that are on the > back burner at the moment that could use some hacking; even if it is > totally redone later by someone that wants to refactor it for privsep > and such.
Re: Why isn't OpenBSD in Google Summer of Code 2017?...
Security and correctness should never be an after-thought. Have you done any real software development? And have you ever tried to find your way through cruddy code? 999 times out of 1000 it is less painful and much more effective to rewrite from scratch. So what's the point of having that previous iteration? On 5 Apr 2017 at 13:10, Luke Small wrote: > I imagine there are some projects that need some love that are on the back > burner at the moment that could use some hacking; even if it is totally > redone later by someone that wants to refactor it for privsep and such. > On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 4:21 PM Theo de Raadt wrote: > > > Pete, you propose a waste of time. > > > > Everyone has the source code. Everyone can run it. Everyone can see > > the problems other people report, and the things which are not supported. > > > > Everyone already can tell what needs improving. Everyone has a brain, > > and can come up with their own goals. > > > > If they don't come up with goals, there's nothing we can write which > > will change anything. > > > > Finally, not everyone has time. It would not be time spent well making > > lists for other people who may or may not perform. > > > > > Would the devs consider compiling a list of specific improvements they'd > > like > > > to see volunteer'd upon this summer? I'd love to help especially if it > > was a > > > group effort/friendly competition. > > > > > > ____________ > > > From: owner-m...@openbsd.org on behalf of Bob > > Beck > > > > > > Sent: April 2, 2017 10:16:21 PM > > > To: Luke Small > > > Cc: openbsd-misc > > > Subject: Re: Why isn't OpenBSD in Google Summer of Code 2017?... > > > > > > We tried it for two years, it was too much effort on the part of the > > > foundation organizers mentors to deal with the bureaucracy involved, and > > we > > > didn't really see enough > > > return in terms of new developers to the project, which, frankly being > > > selfish on OpenBSD's part is the only reason for us to do it. > > > > > > Both Ken Westerback and I organized our end of it and dealt with the > > google > > > paperwork the two years we did it, Neither of us is willing to do it > > again, > > > and while I won't > > > directly speak for Ken, I would not support us spending effort on this > > when > > > there are lots of other things to do.. It just doesn't have the benefit > > for > > > OpenBSD, especially > > > in light of the effort of the volunteers necessary to participate. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Luke Small wrote:
Re: Why isn't OpenBSD in Google Summer of Code 2017?...
I imagine there are some projects that need some love that are on the back burner at the moment that could use some hacking; even if it is totally redone later by someone that wants to refactor it for privsep and such. On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 4:21 PM Theo de Raadt wrote: > Pete, you propose a waste of time. > > Everyone has the source code. Everyone can run it. Everyone can see > the problems other people report, and the things which are not supported. > > Everyone already can tell what needs improving. Everyone has a brain, > and can come up with their own goals. > > If they don't come up with goals, there's nothing we can write which > will change anything. > > Finally, not everyone has time. It would not be time spent well making > lists for other people who may or may not perform. > > > Would the devs consider compiling a list of specific improvements they'd > like > > to see volunteer'd upon this summer? I'd love to help especially if it > was a > > group effort/friendly competition. > > > > > > From: owner-m...@openbsd.org on behalf of Bob > Beck > > > > Sent: April 2, 2017 10:16:21 PM > > To: Luke Small > > Cc: openbsd-misc > > Subject: Re: Why isn't OpenBSD in Google Summer of Code 2017?... > > > > We tried it for two years, it was too much effort on the part of the > > foundation organizers mentors to deal with the bureaucracy involved, and > we > > didn't really see enough > > return in terms of new developers to the project, which, frankly being > > selfish on OpenBSD's part is the only reason for us to do it. > > > > Both Ken Westerback and I organized our end of it and dealt with the > google > > paperwork the two years we did it, Neither of us is willing to do it > again, > > and while I won't > > directly speak for Ken, I would not support us spending effort on this > when > > there are lots of other things to do.. It just doesn't have the benefit > for > > OpenBSD, especially > > in light of the effort of the volunteers necessary to participate. > > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Luke Small wrote:
Re: Why isn't OpenBSD in Google Summer of Code 2017?...
Pete, you propose a waste of time. Everyone has the source code. Everyone can run it. Everyone can see the problems other people report, and the things which are not supported. Everyone already can tell what needs improving. Everyone has a brain, and can come up with their own goals. If they don't come up with goals, there's nothing we can write which will change anything. Finally, not everyone has time. It would not be time spent well making lists for other people who may or may not perform. > Would the devs consider compiling a list of specific improvements they'd like > to see volunteer'd upon this summer? I'd love to help especially if it was a > group effort/friendly competition. > > > From: owner-m...@openbsd.org on behalf of Bob Beck > > Sent: April 2, 2017 10:16:21 PM > To: Luke Small > Cc: openbsd-misc > Subject: Re: Why isn't OpenBSD in Google Summer of Code 2017?... > > We tried it for two years, it was too much effort on the part of the > foundation organizers mentors to deal with the bureaucracy involved, and we > didn't really see enough > return in terms of new developers to the project, which, frankly being > selfish on OpenBSD's part is the only reason for us to do it. > > Both Ken Westerback and I organized our end of it and dealt with the google > paperwork the two years we did it, Neither of us is willing to do it again, > and while I won't > directly speak for Ken, I would not support us spending effort on this when > there are lots of other things to do.. It just doesn't have the benefit for > OpenBSD, especially > in light of the effort of the volunteers necessary to participate. > > > > On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Luke Small wrote:
Re: Why isn't OpenBSD in Google Summer of Code 2017?...
Would the devs consider compiling a list of specific improvements they'd like to see volunteer'd upon this summer? I'd love to help especially if it was a group effort/friendly competition. From: owner-m...@openbsd.org on behalf of Bob Beck Sent: April 2, 2017 10:16:21 PM To: Luke Small Cc: openbsd-misc Subject: Re: Why isn't OpenBSD in Google Summer of Code 2017?... We tried it for two years, it was too much effort on the part of the foundation organizers mentors to deal with the bureaucracy involved, and we didn't really see enough return in terms of new developers to the project, which, frankly being selfish on OpenBSD's part is the only reason for us to do it. Both Ken Westerback and I organized our end of it and dealt with the google paperwork the two years we did it, Neither of us is willing to do it again, and while I won't directly speak for Ken, I would not support us spending effort on this when there are lots of other things to do.. It just doesn't have the benefit for OpenBSD, especially in light of the effort of the volunteers necessary to participate. On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Luke Small wrote:
Re: Why isn't OpenBSD in Google Summer of Code 2017?...
I wonder if pledge has been fully implemented to include paths? On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 12:34 AM Pete Zabagel wrote: > Would the devs consider compiling a list of specific improvements they'd > like to see volunteer'd upon this summer? I'd love to help especially if it > was a group effort/friendly competition. > > > From: owner-m...@openbsd.org on behalf of Bob > Beck > Sent: April 2, 2017 10:16:21 PM > To: Luke Small > Cc: openbsd-misc > Subject: Re: Why isn't OpenBSD in Google Summer of Code 2017?... > > We tried it for two years, it was too much effort on the part of the > foundation organizers mentors to deal with the bureaucracy involved, and we > didn't really see enough > return in terms of new developers to the project, which, frankly being > selfish on OpenBSD's part is the only reason for us to do it. > > Both Ken Westerback and I organized our end of it and dealt with the google > paperwork the two years we did it, Neither of us is willing to do it again, > and while I won't > directly speak for Ken, I would not support us spending effort on this when > there are lots of other things to do.. It just doesn't have the benefit for > OpenBSD, especially > in light of the effort of the volunteers necessary to participate. > > > > On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Luke Small wrote:
Re: Why isn't OpenBSD in Google Summer of Code 2017?...
We tried it for two years, it was too much effort on the part of the foundation organizers mentors to deal with the bureaucracy involved, and we didn't really see enough return in terms of new developers to the project, which, frankly being selfish on OpenBSD's part is the only reason for us to do it. Both Ken Westerback and I organized our end of it and dealt with the google paperwork the two years we did it, Neither of us is willing to do it again, and while I won't directly speak for Ken, I would not support us spending effort on this when there are lots of other things to do.. It just doesn't have the benefit for OpenBSD, especially in light of the effort of the volunteers necessary to participate. On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Luke Small wrote:
