Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On January 1, 2020 2:14:03 PM GMT+02:00, Frank Beuth wrote: >On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 10:29:53AM +, e...@isdaq.com wrote: >>> But I don't want deeper point to get missed -- which is that if eecd >>> doesn't like the idea of regulating what the programmer can do, then >the >>> programmer has to have the skills to safely write unsafe code. >> >>no you're belying the point: the good programmer regulates himself >>while you >>want to police everything and everyone else to compensate for your own >>shortcomings > >I don't think I suggested anywhere that I want to police anyone else. I >largely agree with what you write with respect to self-regulation. >However, I'm not sure that ranting about it on misc@ is the most >effective way to make positive progress in the desired direction. I have never imagined the day when so much spam will cover this mailing list. Don't we have 's...@openbsd.org' for that purpose ? If not, now is the time to consider creating one. Anyway, perl is not my favourite - but at least it does the job in a predictable manner. Best Regards, Strahil Nikolov
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
hello, > Actually all the cool and useful ideas that perl6 had DID trickle down > into perl5 a few years ago. even if you load a lot of modules from CPAN (which i tried to do with https://metacpan.org/pod/Sympatic), this is not even close to be true! for example, raku has * PEGs are objects * make multithreaded programming easier than i never seen before * gradually typing, subsetting types are core * has much more powerful metamodel, sub and method signatures * metaoperators * lambda syntax made right * Whatever operator * andless possibilities of new operators that can be used postfixed, infixed, prefixed and more ... * multi signatures (pattern matching for signatures) * multiple backends (currently jvm and moarvm) also: globally the langage is much more concistent and readable than every dynamic langage i saw before. > Perl6 was (I think) intended as a test bed for ideas by Larry. Everybody > got sidelined when a perl6 implementation came out of nowhere, > written by Audrey Tang, an extra-terrestrial years ahead of everyone. AFAIK, pugs (it was the name of this implementation) made it possible to write a test suite that became a reference for all the future implementations of perl6 (now raku). Now there is a complete community around the current defacto official backend (named rakudo). raku is the perl of 2020: a dynamic langage that is ahead of its time made by an inspiring, competent and dedicated community which suck at marketing. regards marc
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 10:29:53AM +, e...@isdaq.com wrote: But I don't want deeper point to get missed -- which is that if eecd doesn't like the idea of regulating what the programmer can do, then the programmer has to have the skills to safely write unsafe code. no you're belying the point: the good programmer regulates himself while you want to police everything and everyone else to compensate for your own shortcomings I don't think I suggested anywhere that I want to police anyone else. I largely agree with what you write with respect to self-regulation. However, I'm not sure that ranting about it on misc@ is the most effective way to make positive progress in the desired direction.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 11:56:46PM -0700, Bob Beck wrote: > read fucking code. change fucking things. send some fucking diffs. get > fucking yelled at. learn from your fucking mistakes. show some fucking > passion. filter fucking misc@ and all this useless bleating into the > toilet. > > none of us have time to spoon feed you in some “boot camp” ^fucking > > there are two types of programmers. the self taught, and the hopeless. it ^fucking > is your job to turn yourself from the hopeless to the self taught. ^fucking > > shut up and fucking hack. > There, you missed a few.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 09:06:38PM +0100, Christer Solskogen wrote: > On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 5:50 PM Marc Espie wrote: > > > We did retire vax, and we no longer have any platform without dynamic > > libraries. > > > > > OT but: out of sheer curiosity, why didn't VAX support dynamic libraries? Very different architecture, no register to do pic code efficiently and 512 bytes pages. NetBSD moved to shared libraries on vax at a huge performance cost (something like 30%), if I recall what Miod was saying at the time.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 10:06:47AM +0100, Anders Andersson wrote: > On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 4:51 AM Stuart Longland > wrote: > > > Perl 6 will be a major change though, more disruptive than the Python2→3 > > mess was. So we may be in for some "fun" in the near future. > > Gotta stop this before it derails: perl 6 is not the next version of > perl 5. It's not compatible, it's not an upgrade, it's a completely > new language and does no longer even share the same name (renamed to > raku). There is no "perl 6" that will replace perl 5. Actually all the cool and useful ideas that perl6 had DID trickle down into perl5 a few years ago. Perl6 was (I think) intended as a test bed for ideas by Larry. Everybody got sidelined when a perl6 implementation came out of nowhere, written by Audrey Tang, an extra-terrestrial years ahead of everyone.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:01:50PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 15:57:47 -0600 > Eric Zylstra wrote: > > > Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it? I may > > have been a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the > > thread. And my point wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out > > that most proposals unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve > > obvious problems don’t seem to be received very well. Apologies if > > that wasn’t within bounds. > > What if the OP had instead of the suggestion submitted two or three Lua > scripts to replace two or three Perl scripts? Would you still have the > same opinion? Good luck with that. Tools in base written in perl: - libtool - pkg-config - pkg_add The libtool part is insane. pkg-config is doable. You won't be able to rewrite pkg_add without rewriting the whole ecosystem, because it's heavily based on a few choice modules (see OpenBSD::Intro(3) ) and you more or less have to rewrite all of it together, meaning: -> pkg_add, create, delete -> fw_update -> dpb -> update-plist -> check-lib-depends -> pkg_check-* -> pkg_outdated -> pkg_subst -> port-resolve-lib-helper -> proot -> register-plist There are a few other scripts which are independent of that framework, but still that's some complicated job. Instead of rewriting it, I would be way more interested in somebody looking carefully at (say) libtool and fixing the missing parts...
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
> where do I sign up for OpenBSD write-perfect-C-code programmer training bootcamp? here we go ladies and gents an unadulterated look at the manchild in the wild as he looks for something else to take responsibility for his work. after decades of being spoonfed it's lost the ability to fend for itself as previous generations once did. where autodidacts once had the initiative to read, study and learn how to use tools inherently more dangerous than the relatively tame c, children nowadays only know how to blame the job for being too hard. the tool for being unsafe. or the teacher for being too strict. where men once fixed steel without harness or lanyard, hardhat or steelcaps they now want everything handed to them on a silver platter > But I don't want deeper point to get missed -- which is that if eecd > doesn't like the idea of regulating what the programmer can do, then the > programmer has to have the skills to safely write unsafe code. no you're belying the point: the good programmer regulates himself while you want to police everything and everyone else to compensate for your own shortcomings At moment, I want my privacy to be protected. https://mytemp.email/
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 11:56:46PM -0700, Bob Beck wrote: read fucking code. change fucking things. send some fucking diffs. get fucking yelled at. learn from your fucking mistakes. show some fucking passion. filter fucking misc@ and all this useless bleating into the toilet. none of us have time to spoon feed you in some “boot camp” there are two types of programmers. the self taught, and the hopeless. it is your job to turn yourself from the hopeless to the self taught. shut up and fucking hack. Well put. But I don't want deeper point to get missed -- which is that if eecd doesn't like the idea of regulating what the programmer can do, then the programmer has to have the skills to safely write unsafe code. On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 23:50 Frank Beuth wrote: On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 04:00:37AM +, e...@isdaq.com wrote: >rather than the programmer being responsible for >writing unsafe >code we need to regulate what the programmer can do just like we need to >regulate what the community can say, do, see, and think. where do I sign up for OpenBSD write-perfect-C-code programmer training bootcamp?
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 4:51 AM Stuart Longland wrote: > Perl 6 will be a major change though, more disruptive than the Python2→3 > mess was. So we may be in for some "fun" in the near future. Gotta stop this before it derails: perl 6 is not the next version of perl 5. It's not compatible, it's not an upgrade, it's a completely new language and does no longer even share the same name (renamed to raku). There is no "perl 6" that will replace perl 5.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
read fucking code. change fucking things. send some fucking diffs. get fucking yelled at. learn from your fucking mistakes. show some fucking passion. filter fucking misc@ and all this useless bleating into the toilet. none of us have time to spoon feed you in some “boot camp” there are two types of programmers. the self taught, and the hopeless. it is your job to turn yourself from the hopeless to the self taught. shut up and fucking hack. On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 23:50 Frank Beuth wrote: > On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 04:00:37AM +, e...@isdaq.com wrote: > >rather than the programmer being responsible for > >writing unsafe > >code we need to regulate what the programmer can do just like we need to > >regulate what the community can say, do, see, and think. > > where do I sign up for OpenBSD write-perfect-C-code programmer training > bootcamp? > >
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 04:00:37AM +, e...@isdaq.com wrote: rather than the programmer being responsible for writing unsafe code we need to regulate what the programmer can do just like we need to regulate what the community can say, do, see, and think. where do I sign up for OpenBSD write-perfect-C-code programmer training bootcamp?
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
> I like where this thread is headed. > > To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and > inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices. > Why stop at TCL and LUA? Or even scripting languages in general. Why > not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too? > > Hear me out. We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can > write their winning tool in their language of choice. All the > parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem > that was brought up by the original poster too. Nobody will mind > having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right? underrated response eww rust *cringe* i suspect 2020 will see a sharp increase in the woke brigade's attempts to place OpenBSD firmly underfoot of the diversity agenda. OpenBSD is one of the last extremely rare bastions of freedom that hasn't been coerced into marching in lockstep with the crowd of progressive madness. and don't think that it doesn't grind on the gears of those power hungry authoritarian narcissist pushers of the diversity drug who know better than you, who are better than you and who do better than you with every virtue signaling code of conduct and safe (space) language. you didn't think it was coincidence that c is demonized for not being "safe" did you? rather than the programmer being responsible for writing unsafe code we need to regulate what the programmer can do just like we need to regulate what the community can say, do, see, and think. accountability is oppression. it's not his fault he didn't do any error handling it's c's fault! At moment, I want my privacy to be protected. https://mytemp.email/
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On 1/1/20 6:06 am, Christer Solskogen wrote: > On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 5:50 PM Marc Espie wrote: > >> We did retire vax, and we no longer have any platform without dynamic >> libraries. >> >> > OT but: out of sheer curiosity, why didn't VAX support dynamic libraries? > Did vax have an MMU? That'd make dynamic libraries tricky I'd imagine. -- Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) I haven't lost my mind... ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On 1/1/20 3:13 am, danieljb...@icloud.com wrote: > I'm curious to know if there are any languages other than C and perl in > use in OpenBSD base. /bin/sh? *ducks* -- Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) I haven't lost my mind... ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On 31/12/19 10:57 pm, Daniel Boyd wrote: > As one of the few remaining people out there who considers perl to be their > favorite language—starting to wonder if it’s just me and Larry Wall at this > point—I’d like to say that perl should stay in base on its merits, all the > perl-based system tools notwithstanding. I coded a lot in Perl before moving onto PHP and other languages… the only time I've done lots with Java was when I was at university. Perl was definitely my first taste of coding for a Unix-like operating system, having previously been solely exposed to variants of BASIC prior (QBASIC, CA Realizer BASIC, VisualBASIC). (Sorry Dijkstra, some of us *do* move beyond that language.) C++ and Haskell were other languages I learned at university. C did feature in my lectures, but I don't consider two slides describing the syntax of "if", "for", and various variable data types as being "instruction". Had I not learned C++ or dabbled with C prior to uni, I'd be stuffed in the subjects that needed C knowledge. Python I had dabbled with, but only started using recently because of my current workplace. They needed a metering product, and the choices of language offered to me were Python and PHP; being a cron-based service doing lots of serial port I/O, I chose Python. These days I do lots in that language. I'd have chosen Perl5 at the time if it were on the table, there is nothing wrong with it, it is stable and mature. Just that it is no longer "trendy". That said, choosing a language because of its popularity is totally the wrong approach. It's a question of whether it is suitable for the job. Notably, are there libraries of sufficient quality that you can utilise to get the job you're after done quickly. Python has pypi. Perl has had CPAN for ages. Perl 6 will be a major change though, more disruptive than the Python2→3 mess was. So we may be in for some "fun" in the near future. -- Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) I haven't lost my mind... ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
Steve Litt wrote: > On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 15:57:47 -0600 > Eric Zylstra wrote: > > > Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it? I may > > have been a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the > > thread. And my point wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out > > that most proposals unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve > > obvious problems don’t seem to be received very well. Apologies if > > that wasn’t within bounds. > > What if the OP had instead of the suggestion submitted two or three Lua > scripts to replace two or three Perl scripts? Would you still have the > same opinion? We would definately have been impressed by his replacement of the existing pkg tools, which as written today are around 23,000 lines of perl. But should we really bother debating "what if"?
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 15:57:47 -0600 Eric Zylstra wrote: > Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it? I may > have been a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the > thread. And my point wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out > that most proposals unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve > obvious problems don’t seem to be received very well. Apologies if > that wasn’t within bounds. What if the OP had instead of the suggestion submitted two or three Lua scripts to replace two or three Perl scripts? Would you still have the same opinion? SteveT Steve Litt December 2019 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
We could always rewrite the entire operating system in Pascal. FreePascal and
GNU Pascal are both GPL, so we’ll need to write a new compiler as well.
Shouldn’t take too long. Who wants to go register openpascal.org?
I’ll get a diff started
program OpenBSD;
begin
{ some code here }
end.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Dec 31, 2019, at 5:18 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>
> I guess I'm saying in these trying times it is considered disrespectful
> to dismiss completely labour-unsupported "ideas", obviously once we accept
> the Great Idea the OP will sit down and do all the required work to prove
> the cast after the fact.
>
> Eric Zylstra wrote:
>
>> Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it? I may have been
>> a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the thread. And my point
>> wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out that most proposals
>> unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve obvious problems don’t seem to be
>> received very well. Apologies if that wasn’t within bounds.
>>
>> E
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
On Dec 31, 2019, at 3:46 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>>>
>>> Isn't it a bit disrespectful to assume someone on misc@ is going to
>>> write such a large diff?
>>>
Maybe the OP could just go ahead and replace all the Perl code with Lua
and then ask for feedback from the other devs? That is the OpenBSD way,
right? If it really is a great idea, they’d all be really excited. In
any case, it would kill this thread.
EZ
Sent from my iPhone
>> On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Daniel Corbe wrote:
>
> I like where this thread is headed.
>
> To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and
> inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices.
> Why stop at TCL and LUA? Or even scripting languages in general. Why
> not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too?
>
> Hear me out. We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can
> write their winning tool in their language of choice. All the
> parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem
> that was brought up by the original poster too. Nobody will mind
> having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right?
>
>>
>
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
I am still waiting to this diff myself. On Tuesday, December 31, 2019, Theo de Raadt wrote: > I guess I'm saying in these trying times it is considered disrespectful > to dismiss completely labour-unsupported "ideas", obviously once we accept > the Great Idea the OP will sit down and do all the required work to prove > the cast after the fact. > > Eric Zylstra wrote: > > > Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it? I may have > been a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the thread. And my > point wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out that most proposals > unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve obvious problems don’t seem to > be received very well. Apologies if that wasn’t within bounds. > > > > E > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Dec 31, 2019, at 3:46 PM, Theo de Raadt > wrote: > > > > > > Isn't it a bit disrespectful to assume someone on misc@ is going to > > > write such a large diff? > > > > > >> Maybe the OP could just go ahead and replace all the Perl code with > Lua and then ask for feedback from the other devs? That is the OpenBSD > way, right? If it really is a great idea, they’d all be really excited. > In any case, it would kill this thread. > > >> > > >> EZ > > >> > > >> > > >> Sent from my iPhone > > >> > > On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Daniel Corbe wrote: > > >>> > > >>> I like where this thread is headed. > > >>> > > >>> To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and > > >>> inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices. > > >>> Why stop at TCL and LUA? Or even scripting languages in general. > Why > > >>> not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too? > > >>> > > >>> Hear me out. We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can > > >>> write their winning tool in their language of choice. All the > > >>> parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem > > >>> that was brought up by the original poster too. Nobody will mind > > >>> having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right? > > >>> > > >> > > > >
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
I guess I'm saying in these trying times it is considered disrespectful to dismiss completely labour-unsupported "ideas", obviously once we accept the Great Idea the OP will sit down and do all the required work to prove the cast after the fact. Eric Zylstra wrote: > Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it? I may have been > a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the thread. And my point > wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out that most proposals > unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve obvious problems don’t seem to be > received very well. Apologies if that wasn’t within bounds. > > E > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Dec 31, 2019, at 3:46 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote: > > > > Isn't it a bit disrespectful to assume someone on misc@ is going to > > write such a large diff? > > > >> Maybe the OP could just go ahead and replace all the Perl code with Lua > >> and then ask for feedback from the other devs? That is the OpenBSD way, > >> right? If it really is a great idea, they’d all be really excited. In > >> any case, it would kill this thread. > >> > >> EZ > >> > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Daniel Corbe wrote: > >>> > >>> I like where this thread is headed. > >>> > >>> To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and > >>> inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices. > >>> Why stop at TCL and LUA? Or even scripting languages in general. Why > >>> not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too? > >>> > >>> Hear me out. We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can > >>> write their winning tool in their language of choice. All the > >>> parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem > >>> that was brought up by the original poster too. Nobody will mind > >>> having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right? > >>> > >> >
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it? I may have been a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the thread. And my point wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out that most proposals unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve obvious problems don’t seem to be received very well. Apologies if that wasn’t within bounds. E Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 31, 2019, at 3:46 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote: > > Isn't it a bit disrespectful to assume someone on misc@ is going to > write such a large diff? > >> Maybe the OP could just go ahead and replace all the Perl code with Lua and >> then ask for feedback from the other devs? That is the OpenBSD way, right? >> If it really is a great idea, they’d all be really excited. In any case, it >> would kill this thread. >> >> EZ >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Daniel Corbe wrote: >>> >>> I like where this thread is headed. >>> >>> To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and >>> inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices. >>> Why stop at TCL and LUA? Or even scripting languages in general. Why >>> not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too? >>> >>> Hear me out. We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can >>> write their winning tool in their language of choice. All the >>> parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem >>> that was brought up by the original poster too. Nobody will mind >>> having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right? >>> >>
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
Isn't it a bit disrespectful to assume someone on misc@ is going to write such a large diff? > Maybe the OP could just go ahead and replace all the Perl code with Lua and > then ask for feedback from the other devs? That is the OpenBSD way, right? > If it really is a great idea, they’d all be really excited. In any case, it > would kill this thread. > > EZ > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Daniel Corbe wrote: > > > > I like where this thread is headed. > > > > To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and > > inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices. > > Why stop at TCL and LUA? Or even scripting languages in general. Why > > not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too? > > > > Hear me out. We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can > > write their winning tool in their language of choice. All the > > parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem > > that was brought up by the original poster too. Nobody will mind > > having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right? > > >
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
Maybe the OP could just go ahead and replace all the Perl code with Lua and then ask for feedback from the other devs? That is the OpenBSD way, right? If it really is a great idea, they’d all be really excited. In any case, it would kill this thread. EZ Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Daniel Corbe wrote: > > I like where this thread is headed. > > To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and > inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices. > Why stop at TCL and LUA? Or even scripting languages in general. Why > not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too? > > Hear me out. We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can > write their winning tool in their language of choice. All the > parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem > that was brought up by the original poster too. Nobody will mind > having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right? >
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 5:50 PM Marc Espie wrote: > We did retire vax, and we no longer have any platform without dynamic > libraries. > > OT but: out of sheer curiosity, why didn't VAX support dynamic libraries?
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On 12-31 14:02, Raul Miller wrote: > On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 1:32 PM wrote: > > I'm curious to know if there are any languages other than C and perl in > > use in OpenBSD base. > It's pretty easy to download the sources for base, and then: > tar zxf src.tar.gz > find . -type f -name '*.*' | sed 's/^.*\.//' | sort | uniq -c | sort > -n | tail -40 For what it may be worth: another way I use to see "what is available" (sometimes just to learn) is either: "man [1-9] intro" or go to http://man.openbsd.org, optionally choose a section, put "." (without quotes) in the search field, and click the "apropos" button. -- Please pray for our country(ies) and leaders, at this important time. More on this and other topics (a simple, non-JS site w/ no sales): http://lukecall.net (updated 2019-12-8)
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
I like where this thread is headed. To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices. Why stop at TCL and LUA? Or even scripting languages in general. Why not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too? Hear me out. We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can write their winning tool in their language of choice. All the parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem that was brought up by the original poster too. Nobody will mind having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right?
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 02:02:47PM -0500, Raul Miller wrote: > tar zxf src.tar.gz > find . -type f -name '*.*' | sed 's/^.*\.//' | sort | uniq -c | sort > -n | tail -40 That was fun, I learned about the -n option :) Thanks! wise@hup:/usr/src$ find . -type f -name '*.*' | sed 's/^.*\.//' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n | tail -40 | sort -nr 17030 c 14060 h 5208 cpp 4043 C 2978 t 1567 out 1516 in 1424 txt 1414 pl 1394 py 1213 3 1011 sh 968 pm 955 4 904 html 751 S 597 cc 545 out++ 542 png 534 rst 523 out_ascii 504 ok 474 exp 412 1 391 td 334 8 320 map 319 inc 315 gn 311 md5 283 texi 278 hpp 277 md 265 pod 242 out_lint 229 out_markdown 211 m4 207 m 191 def 179 f
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 1:32 PM wrote: > I'm curious to know if there are any languages other than C and perl in > use in OpenBSD base. It's pretty easy to download the sources for base, and then: tar zxf src.tar.gz find . -type f -name '*.*' | sed 's/^.*\.//' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n | tail -40 But, anyways: yes there are (and not just cpp and m4 and shell). And, I can see why Theo seems to radiate such impatience at the inanity of, for example, this thread. -- Raul
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
Certainly, there are situations where perl isn't the best choice. And in those unfortunate situations, other languages may be considered, however begrudgingly. :) I'm curious to know if there are any languages other than C and perl in use in OpenBSD base. On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 05:39:03PM +0100, Marc Espie wrote: > On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 06:57:02AM -0600, Daniel Boyd wrote: > > As one of the few remaining people out there who considers perl to be their > > favorite language—starting to wonder if it’s just me and Larry Wall at this > > point—I’d like to say that perl should stay in base on its merits, all the > > perl-based system tools notwithstanding. > > You're definitely not alone, though I also enjoy other languages where perl > falters (long startup time and complexity of linking with libraries mean > I do C and C++ a lot as well) >
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Tue, 31 Dec 2019, Theo de Raadt wrote: > Roderick wrote: >> I am curious to know why tcl, my fovourite scripting lanuage, would >> not be a candidate. [...] > Wow, it's a lot like you can't read. It is more an academic question. I wanted to know more objective critera than personal preferences when selecting a scripting language. That perl is prefered, is understandable: it is one of the oldest and very early on BSD. Tcl is also as old and evolved, but its existence is today almost ignored. And I really do not understand what new brings python that is today so in fashion, the idea that indentation has a semantic does not make me entusiastic. Rodrigo
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
Raul Miller wrote: > On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 11:46 AM Roderick wrote: > > I am curious to know why tcl, my fovourite scripting lanuage, would > > not be a candidate. > > If OpenLuaBSD would be a welcome fork, I don't see why OpenTCLBSD > would be any worse. > > Doesn't mean anyone wants to write it. You are doing it in the wrong order. First, you need to pay the domainname cabal for a domainname Then you setup a wiki and relevant mailing lists That way, it doesn't need to get discussed here.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 11:46 AM Roderick wrote: > I am curious to know why tcl, my fovourite scripting lanuage, would > not be a candidate. If OpenLuaBSD would be a welcome fork, I don't see why OpenTCLBSD would be any worse. Doesn't mean anyone wants to write it. -- Raul
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
Roderick wrote: > > > On Tue, 31 Dec 2019, Marc Espie wrote: > > > lua would definitely NOT be appropriate for that. The only half valid > > candidate would be python. > > I am curious to know why tcl, my fovourite scripting lanuage, would > not be a candidate. > > I suspect, tcl is being underestimated, and the decission for one > or other scripting language is mostly guided by personal prefferences > and fashion (today python). Wow, it's a lot like you can't read. There are no candidates.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:45:34PM +1000, Stuart Longland wrote: > On 31/12/19 3:54 pm, Marc Espie wrote: > > Contrary to what some people might think, the tools in question won't be > > easier to understand and manage if written in another language. > > I'm of the opinion that "if it ain't broken, don't fix it". What is > "broken" about Perl that we're trying to fix with a replacement (whether > it be Lua, Python, NodeJS, Ruby, PHP, TCL, alb, BASIC … or something else)? It used to be there was no choice at all. Back then, perl was already in the base system and running on everything *including vax*. Python (for instance) not so much. The standard build definitely requires shared libraries. We did retire vax, and we no longer have any platform without dynamic libraries. As for the license, python's license appears fairly similar to Perl's artistic license. I would worry a bit about the strong terms in 6. This License Agreement will automatically terminate upon a material breach of its terms and conditions. for which no equivalent is visible in Perl's license. You got to remember though that OpenBSD initially had a lot of stuff that was not BSD licensed (the full toolchain!), but used for building (we got rid of the fp emulation code fairly early on). Though that has changed on some platforms (hurray for clang pre-apache license), I suspect there might be some reticence to importing more stuff that's not strictly under a BSD/MIT license.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Tue, 31 Dec 2019, Marc Espie wrote: > lua would definitely NOT be appropriate for that. The only half valid > candidate would be python. I am curious to know why tcl, my fovourite scripting lanuage, would not be a candidate. I suspect, tcl is being underestimated, and the decission for one or other scripting language is mostly guided by personal prefferences and fashion (today python). Rodrigo
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 06:57:02AM -0600, Daniel Boyd wrote: > As one of the few remaining people out there who considers perl to be their > favorite language—starting to wonder if it’s just me and Larry Wall at this > point—I’d like to say that perl should stay in base on its merits, all the > perl-based system tools notwithstanding. You're definitely not alone, though I also enjoy other languages where perl falters (long startup time and complexity of linking with libraries mean I do C and C++ a lot as well)
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
Perl is my favorite language, too. Perl can be gnarly but I love it. I have zero experience with Lua so I can’t judge it but I’d like Perl to stay in Base. On Tuesday, December 31, 2019, Daniel Boyd wrote: > As one of the few remaining people out there who considers perl to be > their favorite language—starting to wonder if it’s just me and Larry Wall > at this point—I’d like to say that perl should stay in base on its merits, > all the perl-based system tools notwithstanding. > > I decided learn perl because of OpenBSD back in the day. I was a primarily > a java programmer (to be clear: not out of any affinity for Java) and had > decided to use OpenBSD as my workstation OS. I quickly discovered that the > Java development tools I used (netbeans, eclipse, etc.) weren’t all that > robust in OpenBSD (old builds, crashy). So, I figured, OpenBSD users must > not be java programmers and I set out figuring out what language they did > use... by looking to see which languages were in base. > > Fast forward like 15 years and I’m now a perl/vim guy (a far cry from > java/NetBeans!) and I couldn’t be happier. While I tolerated java, I > actually really like perl. And the more I learn of it, the better i like > it. I think a lot of people just haven’t really taken the time to learn > perl’s subtleties and true perlish coding conventions. It’s really > wonderful once you know it well. > > Ok— rant over. Carry on. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Dec 31, 2019, at 12:11 AM, Theo de Raadt wrote: > > > > Marc Espie wrote: > > > >> Removing perl from base would be very painful. > >> > >> I don't fancy rewriting all the perl tools in something else > (specifically, > >> most of the ports and package infrastructure) > >> > >> lua would definitely NOT be appropriate for that. The only half valid > >> candidate would be python. > >> > >> Contrary to what some people might think, the tools in question won't be > >> easier to understand and manage if written in another language. > >> > > > > Contrary to what you think, the original proposal didn't come out of > > a process called thinking. > > > >
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
As one of the few remaining people out there who considers perl to be their favorite language—starting to wonder if it’s just me and Larry Wall at this point—I’d like to say that perl should stay in base on its merits, all the perl-based system tools notwithstanding. I decided learn perl because of OpenBSD back in the day. I was a primarily a java programmer (to be clear: not out of any affinity for Java) and had decided to use OpenBSD as my workstation OS. I quickly discovered that the Java development tools I used (netbeans, eclipse, etc.) weren’t all that robust in OpenBSD (old builds, crashy). So, I figured, OpenBSD users must not be java programmers and I set out figuring out what language they did use... by looking to see which languages were in base. Fast forward like 15 years and I’m now a perl/vim guy (a far cry from java/NetBeans!) and I couldn’t be happier. While I tolerated java, I actually really like perl. And the more I learn of it, the better i like it. I think a lot of people just haven’t really taken the time to learn perl’s subtleties and true perlish coding conventions. It’s really wonderful once you know it well. Ok— rant over. Carry on. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 31, 2019, at 12:11 AM, Theo de Raadt wrote: > > Marc Espie wrote: > >> Removing perl from base would be very painful. >> >> I don't fancy rewriting all the perl tools in something else (specifically, >> most of the ports and package infrastructure) >> >> lua would definitely NOT be appropriate for that. The only half valid >> candidate would be python. >> >> Contrary to what some people might think, the tools in question won't be >> easier to understand and manage if written in another language. >> > > Contrary to what you think, the original proposal didn't come out of > a process called thinking. >
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On 31/12/19 3:54 pm, Marc Espie wrote: > Contrary to what some people might think, the tools in question won't be > easier to understand and manage if written in another language. I'm of the opinion that "if it ain't broken, don't fix it". What is "broken" about Perl that we're trying to fix with a replacement (whether it be Lua, Python, NodeJS, Ruby, PHP, TCL, alb, BASIC … or something else)? -- Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) I haven't lost my mind... ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
Marc Espie wrote: > Removing perl from base would be very painful. > > I don't fancy rewriting all the perl tools in something else (specifically, > most of the ports and package infrastructure) > > lua would definitely NOT be appropriate for that. The only half valid > candidate would be python. > > Contrary to what some people might think, the tools in question won't be > easier to understand and manage if written in another language. > Contrary to what you think, the original proposal didn't come out of a process called thinking.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
Removing perl from base would be very painful. I don't fancy rewriting all the perl tools in something else (specifically, most of the ports and package infrastructure) lua would definitely NOT be appropriate for that. The only half valid candidate would be python. Contrary to what some people might think, the tools in question won't be easier to understand and manage if written in another language.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Mon, 30 Dec 2019, Theo de Raadt wrote: > wrote: > > > A smaller base afforded to by Lua will reduce the > > attack surface and complexity of the OpenBSD project as a whole. > > 1) I think that is a baseless and irrelevant claim. > > 2) No. It is not about the claim, he is trying to sell lua, because lua should be everywhere, also in the bootloader (they bloated FreeBSDs bootloader by substituting forth with lua), also in tex, you are forced to install luatex with the bloat of "texlive". Lua means moon, from latin luna. Lua phanatics should be called lunatics. But there is also some python phanaticism. It is a scripting language more, the only new (horrible) thing seems to be that indentation has a meaning, it contains the whole tcl/tk as "tkinter" that alone should be enough for reasonable scripting. Rodrigo.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
writes: > Hi, > > I'd like to bring up the following suggestion: > > Would it be desirable for the OpenBSD project to replace Perl with Lua > in the base system? A smaller base afforded to by Lua will reduce the > attack surface and complexity of the OpenBSD project as a whole. > > The source contains around 24000 lines of C. Under 64-bit Linux, the > Lua interpreter built with all standard Lua libraries takes 247K and > the Lua library takes 421K. - https://www.lua.org/about.html > > Lua is free open-source software, distributed under a very liberal > license (the well-known MIT license). > - https://www.lua.org/about.html > > I recognize that this will involve a massive multi-year undertaking and > I'd like to be part of the effort if it were to arise. > > Cheers, > ansimita I'm not an OpenBSD developer. But as we are on this subject, IMHO if Perl is to be replaced it's better to be Python to take its place, which also has a very liberal license (BSD-style PSFL) and more importantly has a massive user base. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On 2019-12-30 18:07, ansim...@tutanota.com wrote: Hi, I'd like to bring up the following suggestion: Would it be desirable for the OpenBSD project to replace Perl with Lua in the base system? A smaller base afforded to by Lua will reduce the attack surface and complexity of the OpenBSD project as a whole. The source contains around 24000 lines of C. Under 64-bit Linux, the Lua interpreter built with all standard Lua libraries takes 247K and the Lua library takes 421K. - https://www.lua.org/about.html Lua is free open-source software, distributed under a very liberal license (the well-known MIT license). - https://www.lua.org/about.html I recognize that this will involve a massive multi-year undertaking and I'd like to be part of the effort if it were to arise. Cheers, ansimita I like lua as a whole, however it isn't extremely useful for system administration tasks. Which I believe is likely the reason for Perl's inclusion. Edgar
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
Hi Theo, Noted. Thanks for the consideration, ansimita Dec 31, 2019, 00:15 by dera...@openbsd.org: > wrote: > >> A smaller base afforded to by Lua will reduce the >> attack surface and complexity of the OpenBSD project as a whole. >> > > 1) I think that is a baseless and irrelevant claim. > > 2) No. >
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
wrote: > A smaller base afforded to by Lua will reduce the > attack surface and complexity of the OpenBSD project as a whole. 1) I think that is a baseless and irrelevant claim. 2) No.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
Am Di., 31. Dez. 2019 um 01:08 Uhr schrieb : > Would it be desirable for the OpenBSD project to replace Perl with Lua > in the base system? A smaller base afforded to by Lua will reduce the IMNSHO no. You are welcome to fork your OpenLuaBSD project, though. Looking forward to your first release. Best Martin
Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
Hi, I'd like to bring up the following suggestion: Would it be desirable for the OpenBSD project to replace Perl with Lua in the base system? A smaller base afforded to by Lua will reduce the attack surface and complexity of the OpenBSD project as a whole. The source contains around 24000 lines of C. Under 64-bit Linux, the Lua interpreter built with all standard Lua libraries takes 247K and the Lua library takes 421K. - https://www.lua.org/about.html Lua is free open-source software, distributed under a very liberal license (the well-known MIT license). - https://www.lua.org/about.html I recognize that this will involve a massive multi-year undertaking and I'd like to be part of the effort if it were to arise. Cheers, ansimita
