Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 09:29:57PM -0600, Gordon Klok wrote: On 18-Mar-08, at 5:14 AM, bofh wrote: On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 2:52 AM, Johan Mson Lindman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the key here is that not everything needs to be a 4 cpu quad core with 128Gigs of ram, and not that it was running freebsd or openbsd. Why the hell not? Running old hardware is a hobby not something you should depend on, one $700 dell server can replace dozens of crappy 5 year old machines using a tiny fraction of the power and generating a fraction of the heat. Of course its not as much fun hunting for spare parts in the trash or on ebay but you will have more time to get real work done. True, but I think the issue is that, economies of scale to keep the Exchange users happy aside, CPU power is the least of the worries for just handling email. The job could be done by a modern I/O design with a cheap older CPU just fine. Then again, the CPU itself is probably the chapest component in the box but has the most marketing value. I use old boxes for odd jobs but I don't have clusters of old boxes doing the work that would be better done by one new box. After all, OBSD has the an anti-virtualization slant. If a job should be segrgated onto a separate box, it doesn't have to be a $700 Dell server if an almost-free generic P-133 will do just fine. If you want new hardware for the perceived reliability issue, or perhaps for the better bus bandwidth, it would be nice to have something between the lowest horsepower new server and a Soekris. For many, many jobs, that $700 Dell server is overkill. Doug.
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
On Monday 17 March 2008 22:12:05 you wrote: On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 4:56 PM, Marc Balmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: back in time (but not to long ago), I served 3000 email accounts for a Swiss multinational insurance company on a P133 with 32MB RAM. That is no big deal, however. sendmail and any Unix like system can handle that without problem. Until a few years back, all the emails for one of the most widely recognized global brands went through 3 gateway servers (think 250k employees, and a whole bunch of automatic notification emails) that were freebsd, sendmail, and either dual ppro 200mhz or dual P2-400mhz. softdep really helped them out :) Nice! Got any more _freebsd_ success stories for [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
On Monday 17 March 2008 22:12:05 you wrote: On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 4:56 PM, Marc Balmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: back in time (but not to long ago), I served 3000 email accounts for a Swiss multinational insurance company on a P133 with 32MB RAM. That is no big deal, however. sendmail and any Unix like system can handle that without problem. Until a few years back, all the emails for one of the most widely recognized global brands went through 3 gateway servers (think 250k employees, and a whole bunch of automatic notification emails) that were freebsd, sendmail, and either dual ppro 200mhz or dual P2-400mhz. softdep really helped them out :) Nice! Got any more _freebsd_ success stories for [EMAIL PROTECTED] No. But I will be shutting down a ten year old Linux server, where I am the only one which actually changed and burned the EPROMs of a rather rare kind with the software needed to make the mylex Raid6 controller working in a few days. The thing kept sitting in the basement without UPS and anybody ever doing anything, just running and running... Almost as good as novell 3.x and nowadays openbsd, some things just keep running... The guy at mylex was quite happy that finally somebody made use of the code they wrote for this at the time ancient piece of hardware and surprised. ;) -sm
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:16:13AM +0100, Siegbert Marschall wrote: On Monday 17 March 2008 22:12:05 you wrote: ... Got any more _freebsd_ success stories for [EMAIL PROTECTED] ^^^ No. But I will be shutting down a ten year old Linux server, ... and this week I'll have to replace the clip (for the umpteenth time) of a forty year old fountain pen ...
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 2:52 AM, Johan Mson Lindman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nice! Got any more _freebsd_ success stories for [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think the key here is that not everything needs to be a 4 cpu quad core with 128Gigs of ram, and not that it was running freebsd or openbsd. -- http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0feature=related
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
snip back in time (but not to long ago), I served 3000 email accounts for a Swiss multinational insurance company on a P133 with 32MB RAM. That is no big deal, however. sendmail and any Unix like system can handle that without problem. Agreed. People nowadays seem to wrongly associate email with Exchange Server bloatware. Give those gigs of RAM and disk space to a lightweight UNIX distro, fasten your seatbelts and prepare to take off. It's amazing how little knowledge tech workers have about network protocols...
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 09:56:44PM +0100, Marc Balmer wrote: back in time (but not to long ago), I served 3000 email accounts for a Swiss multinational insurance company on a P133 with 32MB RAM. Out of curiousity: Was that with or without spamfilters and virusscanning? These two seem to cause most of the power demands of mail servers these days, not the number of accounts... Cheerio, Thomas -- ** PLEASE: NO Cc's to me privately, I do read the list - thanks! ** - Thomas Ribbrockhttp://www.ribbrock.orgICQ#: 15839919 You have to live on the edge of reality - to make your dreams come true!
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
* Marcus Andree [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-03-18 12:31]: snip back in time (but not to long ago), I served 3000 email accounts for a Swiss multinational insurance company on a P133 with 32MB RAM. That is no big deal, however. sendmail and any Unix like system can handle that without problem. Agreed. People nowadays seem to wrongly associate email with Exchange Server bloatware. well. it depends a LOT on your users' usage profile. I could not serve our customers from such an old machine. ok, the frontends are still 360MHz Sun netra t1s. But the storage backend is a 14 disk raid5 of 15k RPM U320 drives, plus a 6 disk raid5 of 10k RPM U320 drives - and that is needed. It's amazing how little knowledge tech workers have about network protocols... ack ack ack ack ack -- Henning Brauer, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] BS Web Services, http://bsws.de Full-Service ISP - Secure Hosting, Mail and DNS Services Dedicated Servers, Rootservers, Application Hosting - Hamburg Amsterdam
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 01:11:45PM +0100, Henning Brauer wrote: well. it depends a LOT on your users' usage profile. I could not serve our customers from such an old machine. ok, the frontends are still 360MHz Sun netra t1s. But the storage backend is a 14 disk raid5 of 15k RPM U320 drives, plus a 6 disk raid5 of 10k RPM U320 drives - and that is needed. IMAP vs POP, presumably?
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
* Jussi Peltola [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-03-18 15:41]: On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 01:11:45PM +0100, Henning Brauer wrote: well. it depends a LOT on your users' usage profile. I could not serve our customers from such an old machine. ok, the frontends are still 360MHz Sun netra t1s. But the storage backend is a 14 disk raid5 of 15k RPM U320 drives, plus a 6 disk raid5 of 10k RPM U320 drives - and that is needed. IMAP vs POP, presumably? mixed, in my case. not all that many direct imap users, but many many indirect ones via webmail. -- Henning Brauer, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] BS Web Services, http://bsws.de Full-Service ISP - Secure Hosting, Mail and DNS Services Dedicated Servers, Rootservers, Application Hosting - Hamburg Amsterdam
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
Henning Brauer wrote: * Marcus Andree [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-03-18 12:31]: snip back in time (but not to long ago), I served 3000 email accounts for a Swiss multinational insurance company on a P133 with 32MB RAM. That is no big deal, however. sendmail and any Unix like system can handle that without problem. Agreed. People nowadays seem to wrongly associate email with Exchange Server bloatware. well. it depends a LOT on your users' usage profile. I could not serve our customers from such an old machine. well, we can't either nowadays, of course. much, much more iron in place now;) ok, the frontends are still 360MHz Sun netra t1s. But the storage backend is a 14 disk raid5 of 15k RPM U320 drives, plus a 6 disk raid5 of 10k RPM U320 drives - and that is needed. It's amazing how little knowledge tech workers have about network protocols... ack ack ack ack ack
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
On 18-Mar-08, at 5:14 AM, bofh wrote: On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 2:52 AM, Johan Mson Lindman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nice! Got any more _freebsd_ success stories for [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think the key here is that not everything needs to be a 4 cpu quad core with 128Gigs of ram, and not that it was running freebsd or openbsd. Why the hell not? Running old hardware is a hobby not something you should depend on, one $700 dell server can replace dozens of crappy 5 year old machines using a tiny fraction of the power and generating a fraction of the heat. Of course its not as much fun hunting for spare parts in the trash or on ebay but you will have more time to get real work done.
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
I've just finished a small argument with some colleages here at work. They just couldn't believe a Pentium 133 was serving a hundred e-mail accounts... Even in death we can count on OpenBSD to show how things should be done. RIP. On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Alexander Bochmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...was rather unspectacular: Hardware failiure. The system's name was base, originally installed with OpenBSD 2.3 on Jun 12, 1998: -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 5 Jun 12 1998 etc/myname It ran the OpenBSD 2.3 kernel and most of the userland until it stopped responding about three weeks ago and couldn't be resurrected. Small hardware problems had happened before, as with most systems that have been running uninterrupted for nearly 10 years, but this time I decided against getting it up again: Running modern software had gotten a real chore (never managed to backport OpenSSH, for example, so it still had the last version of the old ssh.com daemon (1.2.32?). (Well, that, and the 2.3 GENERIC kernel reliably shot down the VMWare session I tried to get it running in.) Good old internet software like sendmail or bind never were a problem though, even in their most recent versions (which may or may not be a compliment, depending on your point of view). To my knowlege, the system never was hacked - despite running software like qpop 2.53 or really, really old versions of apache and php. (I sometimes found core files, but I guess the system was just too obscure to be a valid target for any type of automated attack.) base had lots of old stuff still lying around, like an emergency netboot environment for the sun3/160 that it had replaced as main server for infra.de back at the time, an Amanda client for my old employer's network backup system that's long gone, or the configuration for half a dozen UUCP feeds which have lost their peers ages ago. Gone are the days when 32MB RAM was a lot, a stripped down OpenBSD kernel had a whopping 1MB, and a handful of blacklists got rid of almost all of the spam. -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel1056157 Jul 31 2002 /bsd Alex.
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
Marcus Andree wrote: I've just finished a small argument with some colleages here at work. They just couldn't believe a Pentium 133 was serving a hundred e-mail accounts... back in time (but not to long ago), I served 3000 email accounts for a Swiss multinational insurance company on a P133 with 32MB RAM. That is no big deal, however. sendmail and any Unix like system can handle that without problem.
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 4:34 PM, Marcus Andree [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've just finished a small argument with some colleages here at work. They just couldn't believe a Pentium 133 was serving a hundred e-mail accounts... Did you not remind them the earliest UNIX systems had 64K of ram and were serving 10s if not hundreds of users? -- http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0feature=related
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 4:56 PM, Marc Balmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: back in time (but not to long ago), I served 3000 email accounts for a Swiss multinational insurance company on a P133 with 32MB RAM. That is no big deal, however. sendmail and any Unix like system can handle that without problem. Until a few years back, all the emails for one of the most widely recognized global brands went through 3 gateway servers (think 250k employees, and a whole bunch of automatic notification emails) that were freebsd, sendmail, and either dual ppro 200mhz or dual P2-400mhz. softdep really helped them out :) -- http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0feature=related
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
Marcus Andree ha scritto: I've just finished a small argument with some colleages here at work. They just couldn't believe a Pentium 133 was serving a hundred e-mail accounts... Even in death we can count on OpenBSD to show how things should be done. RIP. I still use an Pentium 166 with 64 Mb with FreeBSD 5.2 that handle 400 email accounts without problem :) a pic of my beast http://raven.lilik.it/foto/im000785.jpg (it's an old pic)
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
At 05:09 PM 3/17/2008 -0400, bofh wrote: On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 4:34 PM, Marcus Andree [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've just finished a small argument with some colleages here at work. They just couldn't believe a Pentium 133 was serving a hundred e-mail accounts... Did you not remind them the earliest UNIX systems had 64K of ram and were serving 10s if not hundreds of users? Indeed! Luckily, nobody had invented a GUI back then. Lee
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
raven schreef: I still use an Pentium 166 with 64 Mb with FreeBSD 5.2 that handle 400 email accounts without problem :) a pic of my beast http://raven.lilik.it/foto/im000785.jpg (it's an old pic) Doesn't matter that much in case of machine pictures, it get's worse with people when the pics are old. Machines get prettier over time. ;-) Wijnand
the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
...was rather unspectacular: Hardware failiure. The system's name was base, originally installed with OpenBSD 2.3 on Jun 12, 1998: -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 5 Jun 12 1998 etc/myname It ran the OpenBSD 2.3 kernel and most of the userland until it stopped responding about three weeks ago and couldn't be resurrected. Small hardware problems had happened before, as with most systems that have been running uninterrupted for nearly 10 years, but this time I decided against getting it up again: Running modern software had gotten a real chore (never managed to backport OpenSSH, for example, so it still had the last version of the old ssh.com daemon (1.2.32?). (Well, that, and the 2.3 GENERIC kernel reliably shot down the VMWare session I tried to get it running in.) Good old internet software like sendmail or bind never were a problem though, even in their most recent versions (which may or may not be a compliment, depending on your point of view). To my knowlege, the system never was hacked - despite running software like qpop 2.53 or really, really old versions of apache and php. (I sometimes found core files, but I guess the system was just too obscure to be a valid target for any type of automated attack.) base had lots of old stuff still lying around, like an emergency netboot environment for the sun3/160 that it had replaced as main server for infra.de back at the time, an Amanda client for my old employer's network backup system that's long gone, or the configuration for half a dozen UUCP feeds which have lost their peers ages ago. Gone are the days when 32MB RAM was a lot, a stripped down OpenBSD kernel had a whopping 1MB, and a handful of blacklists got rid of almost all of the spam. -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel1056157 Jul 31 2002 /bsd Alex.
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
I will drink a beer to commemorate our lose. Jay ...was rather unspectacular: Hardware failiure. The system's name was base, originally installed with OpenBSD 2.3 on Jun 12, 1998: -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 5 Jun 12 1998 etc/myname It ran the OpenBSD 2.3 kernel and most of the userland until it stopped responding about three weeks ago and couldn't be resurrected. Small hardware problems had happened before, as with most systems that have been running uninterrupted for nearly 10 years, but this time I decided against getting it up again: Running modern software had gotten a real chore (never managed to backport OpenSSH, for example, so it still had the last version of the old ssh.com daemon (1.2.32?). (Well, that, and the 2.3 GENERIC kernel reliably shot down the VMWare session I tried to get it running in.) Good old internet software like sendmail or bind never were a problem though, even in their most recent versions (which may or may not be a compliment, depending on your point of view). To my knowlege, the system never was hacked - despite running software like qpop 2.53 or really, really old versions of apache and php. (I sometimes found core files, but I guess the system was just too obscure to be a valid target for any type of automated attack.) base had lots of old stuff still lying around, like an emergency netboot environment for the sun3/160 that it had replaced as main server for infra.de back at the time, an Amanda client for my old employer's network backup system that's long gone, or the configuration for half a dozen UUCP feeds which have lost their peers ages ago. Gone are the days when 32MB RAM was a lot, a stripped down OpenBSD kernel had a whopping 1MB, and a handful of blacklists got rid of almost all of the spam. -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel1056157 Jul 31 2002 /bsd Alex.
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
Thanks for interesting story; very sadly. Just out of curiosity, what hardware was it? On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 01:23:52PM +0100, Alexander Bochmann wrote: ...was rather unspectacular: Hardware failiure. The system's name was base, originally installed with OpenBSD 2.3 on Jun 12, 1998: -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 5 Jun 12 1998 etc/myname It ran the OpenBSD 2.3 kernel and most of the userland until it stopped responding about three weeks ago and couldn't be resurrected. Small hardware problems had happened before, as with most systems that have been running uninterrupted for nearly 10 years, but this time I decided against getting it up again: Running modern software had gotten a real chore (never managed to backport OpenSSH, for example, so it still had the last version of the old ssh.com daemon (1.2.32?). (Well, that, and the 2.3 GENERIC kernel reliably shot down the VMWare session I tried to get it running in.) Good old internet software like sendmail or bind never were a problem though, even in their most recent versions (which may or may not be a compliment, depending on your point of view). To my knowlege, the system never was hacked - despite running software like qpop 2.53 or really, really old versions of apache and php. (I sometimes found core files, but I guess the system was just too obscure to be a valid target for any type of automated attack.) base had lots of old stuff still lying around, like an emergency netboot environment for the sun3/160 that it had replaced as main server for infra.de back at the time, an Amanda client for my old employer's network backup system that's long gone, or the configuration for half a dozen UUCP feeds which have lost their peers ages ago. Gone are the days when 32MB RAM was a lot, a stripped down OpenBSD kernel had a whopping 1MB, and a handful of blacklists got rid of almost all of the spam. -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel1056157 Jul 31 2002 /bsd Alex. -- C programmers never die. They're just cast into void. () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
...on Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 05:11:10PM +0300, Nickolay A. Burkov wrote: Thanks for interesting story; very sadly. Just out of curiosity, what hardware was it? Can't find a dmesg currently, but from memory the original setup was something like: Pentium-133, 32MB RAM. 4GB Quantum IDE HDD, 3Com 509(?) ISA. I think some 512k Trident VGA graphics card. As far as I remember, most of the stuff had been 2nd hand even in '98. Back then, that was more than enough to run a mailserver for maybe 100 users (sendmail, qpop, uucp), bind, an nntpcache, squid proxy, radius (for an Ascend Max E1 dialin router I still have at home), and the web server. A couple of years ago, the mainboard had been replaced by something with a K6-233 CPU as the old one had died. The harddisk survived to the end (although that may have been the component that finally failed - didn't have a chance to get access to the hardware yet). Alex.
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
I too retired a long serving oBSD/Pentium-Pro 200 back in November. As one door closes ... fyi ... openBSD 4.3 is still small-iron friendly. I run an stock install42 and 43 (no skinny or other customizations), exclusive of the X and compiler sets, and it installs to and runs from a 256MB CF (compact flash), though at 11% free space it's a bit tight. Runs pf, ipsec, sshd, dhcpd and bind as forwarder-cache and only seems to want for 140MB of RAM. Good luck with the new puppy. -Original Message- From: Alexander Bochmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net... Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 16:00:22 +0100 Mailer: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...on Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 05:11:10PM +0300, Nickolay A. Burkov wrote: Thanks for interesting story; very sadly. Just out of curiosity, what hardware was it? Can't find a dmesg currently, but from memory the original setup was something like: Pentium-133, 32MB RAM. 4GB Quantum IDE HDD, 3Com 509(?) ISA. I think some 512k Trident VGA graphics card. As far as I remember, most of the stuff had been 2nd hand even in '98. Back then, that was more than enough to run a mailserver for maybe 100 users (sendmail, qpop, uucp), bind, an nntpcache, squid proxy, radius (for an Ascend Max E1 dialin router I still have at home), and the web server. A couple of years ago, the mainboard had been replaced by something with a K6-233 CPU as the old one had died. The harddisk survived to the end (although that may have been the component that finally failed - didn't have a chance to get access to the hardware yet). Alex.
