Re: : : web development on OpenBSD (Drupal)
On 30/04/2008, at 7:36 PM, Raimo Niskanen wrote: Oops my bad english. I thought drupal was a for me unknown common english word, not a CMS name. It was which CMS system you had chosen I was curious to know... Which brings us back to the OP's question on web development software on OpenBSD ... Drupal is happiest on (L/B)AMP ... http://drupal.org/requirements
Re: : : web development on OpenBSD (Drupal)
On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 07:46:06PM +1200, Richard Toohey wrote: On 30/04/2008, at 7:36 PM, Raimo Niskanen wrote: Oops my bad english. I thought drupal was a for me unknown common english word, not a CMS name. It was which CMS system you had chosen I was curious to know... Which brings us back to the OP's question on web development software on OpenBSD ... Technically, drupal is just an extensible cms. web development still encompasses way more than that. ;-)
Re: : : web development on OpenBSD
On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 07:47:08PM +0200, Marc Espie wrote: On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 06:10:41PM +0200, Raimo Niskanen wrote: On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 05:15:43PM +0200, Marc Espie wrote: I am currently running a web site which says http://joomla.* Strangely enough, it's a drupal site, with no joomla at all. (after spending a week of hair pulling trying to coerce joomla to do whatever I wanted, as the `best-of-breed' solution of choice to brain-dead newbies, I settled on a sensible CMS that actually works) I am curious to know which one? Sorry, don't want 100s of people to bang on it, as the server isn't all THAT fast. Oops my bad english. I thought drupal was a for me unknown common english word, not a CMS name. It was which CMS system you had chosen I was curious to know... I have been banging my head into joomla for a while, and maybe it can do what I want, but I want user names and passwords encrypted among other things and that does not seem to be among their design choices... If you have any amount of logic, you'll find drupal to be quite refreshing for a change. And yeah, drupal has various secure modules that help. The OpenBSD ports include more or less the plugins I use, there are hundreds more where that comes from. From which release is Drupal in ports? I can not find it in OpenBSD 4.1. I know it is time to upgrade but my installation runs sooo nicely now. -- / Raimo Niskanen, Erlang/OTP, Ericsson AB
Re: : : web development on OpenBSD
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 09:36:59AM +0200, Raimo Niskanen wrote: From which release is Drupal in ports? I can not find it in OpenBSD 4.1. I know it is time to upgrade but my installation runs sooo nicely now. 4.3, excellent time to update.
Re: web development on OpenBSD
On 28/04/2008, at 8:29 AM, badeguruji wrote: Hello, I plan to develop a money management app for personal use on OpenBSD. Since I am not big on any backend /prog.language I have decided to ask the experts, what should i choose. Based on the consensus and depth of a response, I will devote my time studying that language/server and try to build this app. [cut] which components will be a good fit?: 1. Backend: MySQL or SQLite 2. webserver: apache or Lighttpd 3. development language: PHP or Java or Javascript (and XML I guess) Thanks in advance. -BG Well, you might as well ask which editor to use, as well. That will start a few posts. The correct answer is vim, of course! 8-) My 2c - you will be fine with BAMP - BSD, Apache, MySQL and PHP. Easy to get going on OpenBSD, well-supported, well-documented (TONS of sites, books, forums, etc.) Just RTFMs, and find the information that emphasizes good coding practices. Worry about JavaScript and XML when you need to (and Ajax can be a useful tool in the right places.) Unless you are an absolute genius, you are NOT going to get this right first time, so the design of the site, the pages, the database, the flow through the site - way, way, way more important than the technologies you use. Use modules / OOP / shared code. Use standard SQL rather than extensions. Once you've got the basic plan, do some prototyping, learning, tweaking, etc. You will go around a few times until you get it right. Don't be afraid to refactor and get things right. Once it is hanging together and you've actually done some coding, you'll find the technology/language that works *for you* Maybe you do it in PHP first, and then decide PHP sucks - because you had a plan and a modular (or OOP) approach, it should not take long to move your code to another language/database. Whatever you go with, be confident that you can upgrade your system when issues are found in those technologies (MySQL, PostgreSQL, PHP, Python, etc. have all have security issues found and resolved in the last 3+ months.) HTH
Re: web development on OpenBSD
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 20:08:37 +1200 Richard Toohey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I plan to develop a money management app for personal use on OpenBSD. Since I am not big on any backend /prog.language I have decided to ask the experts, what should i choose. Based on the consensus and depth of a response, I will devote my time studying that language/server and try to build this app. requirement: Browser based app. with AJAX (multiuser if possible) my_hardware_limitation: 40gig disk, 1GB RAM , no video RAM, pentium 4 CPU 2GHz Level of expertise: starter which components will be a good fit?: 1. Backend: MySQL or SQLite 2. webserver: apache or Lighttpd 3. development language: PHP or Java or Javascript (and XML I guess) PHP is complete crap and a disaster as a programming language. Java is way too cumbersome. For this kind of use-case, I would definitely use python and twisted+nevow+axiom. If you don't know python at all the learning curve for all this might be a bit step, but probably not worse than having to learn SQL+HTTP+some other language (especially if you struggle with php). Nevow is a really nice framework for web-based applications. It also has all the AJAX you need (seamless two-way RPC between python and javascript). As a persistence system, Axiom is very convenient to use, but it is sqlite only, and you don't have full control over your DB schema. You might like it or not. I would think twice before using this combination for a very very busy site, but for personnal or small business use, it is perfect. I just imported www/py-nevow a few days ago. check the ports ML archive for an axiom port. Eric.
Re: web development on OpenBSD
Bojan Nastic ha scritto: eBay used to use C++. There was a .pdf some time ago where they described some of their C++ stuff (and compiler errors like too many class methods, good ol' code generators...) They've since moved to Java, but I don't remember if it's a 100% Java shop now. I think you refer at this document [1]. As for Amazon, look at their Web Services for some ideas. Also, Steve Yegge's old blog (don't have the url at hand) has many pointers. So, yes, go for Python wherever you can. Ruby is in very bad shape internally (language can be as pretty as they want, but VM is what I care about the most). PHP, well... you should use it ONLY if you know *exactly* what you're doing, otherwise it's worse than C++ when it comes to shoot yourself in the foot. There are some very nice alternatives, like seaside/Smalltalk. Python is mature, but working with frameworks like Zope/Plone, it's really bad... It's crappy. I'm more confortable with django...Much more MVC (or as django team says, MTV). I agree with you, php it's good just if you know how to develop, or just use CakePhp another MVC framework.. I think that all depend of what you have to do... And how much scalable, your application need to be... -Francesco On 29 Apr 2008, at 00:41, raven wrote: Bertrand Janin ha scritto: I Wonder what amazon.com and Ebay.com use? it would stand to reason that they would need speed any place they can get it. I wonder if they use C? I remember seeing Sun microbanners here and there on eBay, it might scream Java. But, sometimes, you see someting like this: http://cgi3.*ebay*.it/ws/*eBay*ISAPI.*dll*?ViewUserPage So, as you can see, this horrorful extension seems to scream Micro$hit environments No?
Re: web development on OpenBSD
I am currently running a web site which says http://joomla.* Strangely enough, it's a drupal site, with no joomla at all. (after spending a week of hair pulling trying to coerce joomla to do whatever I wanted, as the `best-of-breed' solution of choice to brain-dead newbies, I settled on a sensible CMS that actually works)
Re: web development on OpenBSD
On Tuesday 29 April 2008, Sam Fourman Jr. wrote: You've got a choice of classical web dev environments, like perl's Mason, which are fast, but a bit difficult to code for, and so-called `modern' web environments, like ruby-on-rails, or perl's catalyst (or php symphony, if I'm right), which would be nice, except that they're REAL SLOW, and so you need a killer machine to run any kind of web server. Google's approach of compiling java into javascript has not yet made it to the world of php/perl/python, as far as I'm aware, though it might be the real solution for maintainable ajax... I Wonder what amazon.com and Ebay.com use? it would stand to reason that they would need speed any place they can get it. I wonder if they use C? Sam Fourman Jr. AFAIK Amazon.com is primarily developed using Mason, an excellent Perl-based web site development and delivery engine - I highly recommend it: http://www.masonhq.com/ -- = Joel Sing | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 0419 577 603 = Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. - Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
Re: : web development on OpenBSD
On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 05:15:43PM +0200, Marc Espie wrote: I am currently running a web site which says http://joomla.* Strangely enough, it's a drupal site, with no joomla at all. (after spending a week of hair pulling trying to coerce joomla to do whatever I wanted, as the `best-of-breed' solution of choice to brain-dead newbies, I settled on a sensible CMS that actually works) I am curious to know which one? I have been banging my head into joomla for a while, and maybe it can do what I want, but I want user names and passwords encrypted among other things and that does not seem to be among their design choices... -- / Raimo Niskanen, Erlang/OTP, Ericsson AB
Re: web development on OpenBSD
At 01:07 PM 4/29/2008 +0200, you wrote: PHP is complete crap and a disaster as a programming language. Java is way too cumbersome. For this kind of use-case, I would definitely use python and twisted+nevow+axiom. Coincidentally, the latest Zend newsletter just showed up - turns out they have a *BSD Licensed* PHP Framework that looks promising: http://framework.zend.com/ For those unfamiliar with the term 'framework', it provides a structure that greatly simplifies development by minimizing configuration problems, automatically integrating a database, and providing testing tools (I know, what's that!). Might be worth checking out - I am. Lee
Re: web development on OpenBSD
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 01:42:05AM +1000, Joel Sing wrote: AFAIK Amazon.com is primarily developed using Mason, an excellent Perl-based web site development and delivery engine - I highly recommend it: http://www.masonhq.com/ Yeah, historically, that's been the case. I have absolutely no clue whether the current incarnation of amazon is still HTML::Mason, though. while mason is very nice for pure web template code, it does absolutely nothing to help you organize your DB access, or even give you sane urls for interactive sites. You really need something like Class::DBI / DBIx::Class or Rose::DB for that. The current trend is Catalyst, which is very nice, but really slow compared to mason... it uses a lot of new-fangled perl features, which are not exactly fast (especially multiple inheritance).
Re: : web development on OpenBSD
On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 06:10:41PM +0200, Raimo Niskanen wrote: On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 05:15:43PM +0200, Marc Espie wrote: I am currently running a web site which says http://joomla.* Strangely enough, it's a drupal site, with no joomla at all. (after spending a week of hair pulling trying to coerce joomla to do whatever I wanted, as the `best-of-breed' solution of choice to brain-dead newbies, I settled on a sensible CMS that actually works) I am curious to know which one? Sorry, don't want 100s of people to bang on it, as the server isn't all THAT fast. I have been banging my head into joomla for a while, and maybe it can do what I want, but I want user names and passwords encrypted among other things and that does not seem to be among their design choices... If you have any amount of logic, you'll find drupal to be quite refreshing for a change. And yeah, drupal has various secure modules that help. The OpenBSD ports include more or less the plugins I use, there are hundreds more where that comes from.
Re: web development on OpenBSD
L. V. Lammert wrote: At 01:07 PM 4/29/2008 +0200, you wrote: PHP is complete crap and a disaster as a programming language. Java is way too cumbersome. For this kind of use-case, I would definitely use python and twisted+nevow+axiom. Coincidentally, the latest Zend newsletter just showed up - turns out they have a *BSD Licensed* PHP Framework that looks promising: http://framework.zend.com/ For those unfamiliar with the term 'framework', it provides a structure that greatly simplifies development by minimizing configuration problems, automatically integrating a database, and providing testing tools (I know, what's that!). Might be worth checking out - I am. Lee I've been using it since just before 1.0 and have been very happy with it. In fact, it's replaced out in-house framework we were using since the new 1.5 now supports a better layout model for views. MVC development is incredibly easy with the framework in general. It doesn't have everything under the sun that a lot of other frameworks have but they are more than happy to take recommendations for core functionality. Plus, what really drew me in was that it is an at-will framework, so I'm not forced to use anything that I don't want. No complaints from using it on OpenBSD here. Chris -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
Re: web development on OpenBSD
bofh wrote: On language - remember, PHP's design goal (as late as v3) was for complete non-programmers to be able to pick it up and write programs immediately. You can imagine how that can cause issues for security. Most libraries or add-ons you install for PHP require you to run in insecure mode. PHP is the opensource answer to visual basic, in the yes, we can create absolute insecure crap too sense. If you want to do something similar to what openbsd is doing, use C In my opinion it's not impossible/hard to write secure code in PHP, don't compare it to Visual Basic please :) And to do some web development in C it's a little insane, except when you need some resources/speed other languages don't provide. Maybe the best languages for start web development would be PHP and Perl, i don't know about ruby since i've never used it, but a lot of people talks nicely about it ;) HTH, Vinicius
Re: web development on OpenBSD
Amarendra Godbole ha scritto: On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 6:50 AM, bofh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As others have mentioned - postgresql. Superior database, scalable above 8 cpus, unlike mysql. And everything comes with it, unlike mysql, where you have to pay for enterprise features (at least 4.x, no idea about 5.x). If you want to run it on a default openbsd box - apache 1.3. On language - remember, PHP's design goal (as late as v3) was for complete non-programmers to be able to pick it up and write programs immediately. You can imagine how that can cause issues for security. Most libraries or add-ons you install for PHP require you to run in insecure mode. PHP is the opensource answer to visual basic, in the yes, we can create absolute insecure crap too sense. If you want to do something similar to what openbsd is doing, use C. [...] IMHO, C is not very easy to pick up for a started, and is not very well suited for web-development (well, yes, there are web apps in C, but they are exceptions than the norm). I strongly recommend python, as I find it easier to learn and get productive. Plus it allows you to use object orientation, once you are comfortable with it. -Amarendra I agree with Amarendra. It's more difficult to write sane code in C than in python or ruby. I choose Django (Python) to develop my blog, and RoR to develop my work appliances. I think that postgres it's awesome. But if anyone can write a FREE (BSD) good framework for c/c++ web appliances, c/c++ it's the best choice ;) [raven]
Re: web development on OpenBSD
On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 09:56:19AM -0300, Vinicius Vianna wrote: Maybe the best languages for start web development would be PHP and Perl, i don't know about ruby since i've never used it, but a lot of people talks nicely about it ;) The current situation sucks a bit. You've got a choice of classical web dev environments, like perl's Mason, which are fast, but a bit difficult to code for, and so-called `modern' web environments, like ruby-on-rails, or perl's catalyst (or php symphony, if I'm right), which would be nice, except that they're REAL SLOW, and so you need a killer machine to run any kind of web server. Google's approach of compiling java into javascript has not yet made it to the world of php/perl/python, as far as I'm aware, though it might be the real solution for maintainable ajax...
Re: web development on OpenBSD
You've got a choice of classical web dev environments, like perl's Mason, which are fast, but a bit difficult to code for, and so-called `modern' web environments, like ruby-on-rails, or perl's catalyst (or php symphony, if I'm right), which would be nice, except that they're REAL SLOW, and so you need a killer machine to run any kind of web server. Google's approach of compiling java into javascript has not yet made it to the world of php/perl/python, as far as I'm aware, though it might be the real solution for maintainable ajax... I Wonder what amazon.com and Ebay.com use? it would stand to reason that they would need speed any place they can get it. I wonder if they use C? Sam Fourman Jr.
Re: web development on OpenBSD
I Wonder what amazon.com and Ebay.com use? it would stand to reason that they would need speed any place they can get it. I wonder if they use C? I remember seeing Sun microbanners here and there on eBay, it might scream Java.
Re: web development on OpenBSD
Bertrand Janin ha scritto: I Wonder what amazon.com and Ebay.com use? it would stand to reason that they would need speed any place they can get it. I wonder if they use C? I remember seeing Sun microbanners here and there on eBay, it might scream Java. But, sometimes, you see someting like this: http://cgi3.*ebay*.it/ws/*eBay*ISAPI.*dll*?ViewUserPage So, as you can see, this horrorful extension seems to scream Micro$hit environments No?
Re: web development on OpenBSD
eBay used to use C++. There was a .pdf some time ago where they described some of their C++ stuff (and compiler errors like too many class methods, good ol' code generators...) They've since moved to Java, but I don't remember if it's a 100% Java shop now. As for Amazon, look at their Web Services for some ideas. Also, Steve Yegge's old blog (don't have the url at hand) has many pointers. So, yes, go for Python wherever you can. Ruby is in very bad shape internally (language can be as pretty as they want, but VM is what I care about the most). PHP, well... you should use it ONLY if you know *exactly* what you're doing, otherwise it's worse than C++ when it comes to shoot yourself in the foot. There are some very nice alternatives, like seaside/Smalltalk. On 29 Apr 2008, at 00:41, raven wrote: Bertrand Janin ha scritto: I Wonder what amazon.com and Ebay.com use? it would stand to reason that they would need speed any place they can get it. I wonder if they use C? I remember seeing Sun microbanners here and there on eBay, it might scream Java. But, sometimes, you see someting like this: http://cgi3.*ebay*.it/ws/ *eBay*ISAPI.*dll*?ViewUserPage So, as you can see, this horrorful extension seems to scream Micro $hit environments No?
web development on OpenBSD
Hello, I plan to develop a money management app for personal use on OpenBSD. Since I am not big on any backend /prog.language I have decided to ask the experts, what should i choose. Based on the consensus and depth of a response, I will devote my time studying that language/server and try to build this app. requirement: Browser based app. with AJAX (multiuser if possible) my_hardware_limitation: 40gig disk, 1GB RAM , no video RAM, pentium 4 CPU 2GHz Level of expertise: starter which components will be a good fit?: 1. Backend: MySQL or SQLite 2. webserver: apache or Lighttpd 3. development language: PHP or Java or Javascript (and XML I guess) Thanks in advance. -BG ~~aapka kalyan ho~~
Re: web development on OpenBSD
which components will be a good fit?: 1. Backend: MySQL or SQLite 2. webserver: apache or Lighttpd 3. development language: PHP or Java or Javascript (and XML I guess) Thanks in advance. -BG I would give PostgreSQL a look, it doesn't get as much press as MySQL, But it is VERY solid, and it is BSD licensed Sam Fourman Jr.
Re: web development on OpenBSD
On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Sam Fourman Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: which components will be a good fit?: 1. Backend: MySQL or SQLite 2. webserver: apache or Lighttpd 3. development language: PHP or Java or Javascript (and XML I guess) Thanks in advance. -BG I would give PostgreSQL a look, it doesn't get as much press as MySQL, But it is VERY solid, and it is BSD licensed I've also found it much easier to maintain than MySQL. As far as language, you should look for something that looks fun to you. Language's are really all over the place, it really depends on what looks like you are going to want to develop in it. Perl is popular as it is on nearly every *nix system in the world (it is also what the pkg_* tools are written in), Ruby is popular with its Ruby on Rails web framework (there is a lot more to Ruby than Rails fyi) and finally Python which is popular and I would recommend. But what matters to me may not matter to you. Take a look at some tutorials and find something that you _want_ to program in. (Sorry Sam for the spam). -- # Curt Micol
Re: web development on OpenBSD
On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 4:29 PM, badeguruji [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, requirement: Browser based app. with AJAX (multiuser if possible) my_hardware_limitation: 40gig disk, 1GB RAM , no video RAM, pentium 4 CPU 2GHz Since people were running multi user systems on UNIX on 64k of ram in the past, this should not present any kind of issue. You'd probably want to investigate tools that allow you to profile usage so that you can see which parts of your code suck the most time and can be improved upon. which components will be a good fit?: 1. Backend: MySQL or SQLite 2. webserver: apache or Lighttpd 3. development language: PHP or Java or Javascript (and XML I guess) As others have mentioned - postgresql. Superior database, scalable above 8 cpus, unlike mysql. And everything comes with it, unlike mysql, where you have to pay for enterprise features (at least 4.x, no idea about 5.x). If you want to run it on a default openbsd box - apache 1.3. On language - remember, PHP's design goal (as late as v3) was for complete non-programmers to be able to pick it up and write programs immediately. You can imagine how that can cause issues for security. Most libraries or add-ons you install for PHP require you to run in insecure mode. PHP is the opensource answer to visual basic, in the yes, we can create absolute insecure crap too sense. If you want to do something similar to what openbsd is doing, use C. -- http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0feature=related
Re: web development on OpenBSD
On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 6:50 AM, bofh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As others have mentioned - postgresql. Superior database, scalable above 8 cpus, unlike mysql. And everything comes with it, unlike mysql, where you have to pay for enterprise features (at least 4.x, no idea about 5.x). If you want to run it on a default openbsd box - apache 1.3. On language - remember, PHP's design goal (as late as v3) was for complete non-programmers to be able to pick it up and write programs immediately. You can imagine how that can cause issues for security. Most libraries or add-ons you install for PHP require you to run in insecure mode. PHP is the opensource answer to visual basic, in the yes, we can create absolute insecure crap too sense. If you want to do something similar to what openbsd is doing, use C. [...] IMHO, C is not very easy to pick up for a started, and is not very well suited for web-development (well, yes, there are web apps in C, but they are exceptions than the norm). I strongly recommend python, as I find it easier to learn and get productive. Plus it allows you to use object orientation, once you are comfortable with it. -Amarendra
Re: web development on OpenBSD
Hi there, I was in a similar position to you a few months ago. I decided to go with Ruby on Rails, it's really simple! But to get the most out of it you should buy a book. Agile Development with rails is a good one. It might be worth reading a php + mysql tutorial just to see how yucky it is. Kind regards, Timothy.
Re: web development on OpenBSD
On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 10:50 PM, Amarendra Godbole [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMHO, C is not very easy to pick up for a started, and is not very well suited for web-development (well, yes, there are web apps in C, but they are exceptions than the norm). I strongly recommend python, as I find it easier to learn and get productive. Plus it allows you to use object orientation, once you are comfortable with it. Python is good. Google hired the guy who wrote python, so you know the language will be well supported. -- http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0feature=related
