Re: [OT] Re: Repost: Anyone using virtual server for mod_perl hosts?
G.W. Haywood writes: On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Malcolm Beattie wrote: you can run *thousands* of separate Linux images on a S/390 How much, to the nearest order of magnitude, does a S/390 cost? How long is a piece of string? An S/390 can be anything from about $100 on ebay for an extremely old one which would cost more in power, space and cooling and do less in performance than any reasonable person would want unless they're *really* hooked on history and blinkenlights. At the top end you can pay $5 million or more for a top of the range z900 fully kitted out. More usefully, I'll say that I'm after a system which costs around 1000 GBP per virtual server (that would be $1000 at computing prices of $1 = 1GBP). The question is how large a system I have to get to bring down the per-virtual-server price that far. I'm hoping that 150-200 would do the trick but I'm (a) hoping to pay extremely low academic prices and (b) probably being over-optimistic. If you look at http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/linuxconfig/ you'll see that IBM reckons you can get down to $500 per server (disk not included) by putting 2500 instances on a brand new fancy $1.2 million z900. On one hand, I'd guess you may need to pay for some upgrading if they aren't very lightly used servers but on the other hand, no one ever pays list price (I'm reliably informed). On the gripping hand, it's very difficult getting hold of pricing information at all on these things (as mentioned in my last slide, I think) which is one of the big problems. --Malcolm -- Malcolm Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unix Systems Programmer Oxford University Computing Services
Re: [OT] Re: Repost: Anyone using virtual server for mod_perl hosts?
On Tue, Feb 13, 2001 at 11:28:20AM +, Malcolm Beattie wrote: you'll see that IBM reckons you can get down to $500 per server (disk not included) by putting 2500 instances on a brand new fancy $1.2 million z900. Assuming all the virtual linux servers were fully loaded with tasks (say apache+mod_perl as an example)... What kind of tradition Intel platform performance would each virtual linux instance be equivalent to? e.g., CPU: ~600MHz PIII? And what about network i/o? Would the z900 network i/o be a bottleneck if all the virtual servers were blasting away? Tim.
Re: Antwort: Repost: Anyone using virtual server for mod_perl hosts?
On 13 Feb 2001, at 16:45, Stas Bekman wrote: Now, has anyone tried this services? Do I have to worry about anything? Why didn't Stas list them in his article? -- they don't appear in the Guide either -- Do they have a fundamental or practical flaw I can't see? cauze I've never tried these and nobody submitted them to me. I've sent a request to the list something like 4 months before publishing the article, I've used all the information I've received. I have used iserver for about the last 4-5 years. In addition to Stas's mod_perl guide he has a lot of info on his site for webmasters. Some of Stas's other webmaster info is on the iserver site with credits and links to his site. I sent an email (see below) to iserver telling them that Stas was going to publish the article. They responded to me but apparently never followed up. iserver has been bought out at least 2 times I think; they've probably got too many "employees". I think Martin did an excellent job in describing their services. I've been more than happy with iserver although in a few cases recently they've made changes without informing us customers in advance (and so sites went down through no fault of our own). I think the key is that the sites cannot be too active. http://www.iserver.com/products/virtual/faq.html Our Virtual Servers are designed to handle a low to medium hit load (under 100,000 hits a day). If a site begins to receive over 100,000 hits a day, web page response will begin to be affected. Those who have web sites experiencing over 100,000 hits per day should consider a Dedicated Server. A Dedicated Server can accommodate well over 1 million hits a day. At iserver I've created (umm ... used a lot of cpan :) some nice applications in mod_perl that would be cumbersome at best with standard cgi. But we put intensive sites on their own boxes. Peter From: Peter J. Schoenster [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: (Fwd) Re: Building a ModPerl ISP for you! Send reply to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Date sent:Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:45:33 -0700 Hi, I don't know if to send this to sales (If such an email exists at iserver) or support ... I do know that support reads and responds ... so please forward this to a person in the company who might want to respond to this article. I always give a thumbs up for iserver when such things appear in the list. You might note that you used some examples from Stas on installing perl modules on your site . Peter --- Forwarded message follows --- Date sent:Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:13:55 +0100 (CET) From: Stas Bekman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Joshua Chamas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Copies to:Mod Perl [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Building a ModPerl ISP for you! --- "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away". -- Philip K. Dick
Antwort: Repost: Anyone using virtual server for mod_perl hosts?
Hi, I'm using a similar service at services.superb.net since last Friday (thanx Martin :-), USD79/month, Linux. They already had a Apache 1.3.9 with mod_perl 1.21 and Perl 5.005_03 + mod_frontpage + mod_php + mod_ssl. That all seemed to work, but I quickly uninstalled it and compiled my own perl/mod_perl/apache - Apache Toolbox is great... :-) I'm happy with this virtual box and had no problems. Michael, http://j-e-b.net Datum: 30.01.2001 19:49 An:"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Betreff: Repost: Anyone using "virtual server" for mod_perl hosts? Nachrichtentext: As many people understood I mean some kind of virtual host service, I would like to restate my question. There are companies (Verio at least) offering a 'virtual machine' running a virtualized OS. Verio is offering NetBSD and Solaris. They have a seriouly large iron where many virtual machines run, each virtual machine gets a share of CPU, HD and RAM resources, an at least an IP address. In there is a full OS, and you get to be root for about $150 a month. It's a cheap alternative to co-location, a middle ground between a good virtual hosting service and owning a box. You can run your own MTA, compile whatever the hell you want, etc, although they offer a bunch of services out-of-the-box and have a lot of useful --if annoying-- cron jobs rotating your logs, monitoring the temperature of your daemons, feeding the dog and whatnot. Of course, you get to share resources with a bunch of other customers. It seems a great environment to set up a low traffic / highly customized server, like apache+mod_perl. Now, I know and understand the services they offer, but I have never actually used one with mod_perl. Now, has anyone tried this services? Do I have to worry about anything? Why didn't Stas list them in his article? -- they don't appear in the Guide either -- Do they have a fundamental or practical flaw I can't see? Martin
[OT] Re: Repost: Anyone using virtual server for mod_perl hosts?
Malcolm Beattie writes: 50 boxes: no problem. 200 boxes: 5 racks or 1U, getting messy. 1000 boxes: admin nightmare. Plus you don't get much too many built-in reliability features with a 1U box. Now consider that you can run *thousands* of separate Linux images on a S/390 box which consists of just one or two frames (i.e. the size of one or two racks). It'll The slides from my talk "IBM Mainframe Hardware from a Linux Hacker's Viewpoint" are now available at http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mbeattie/newcastle2001/index.html There may well be a few errors in the facts and figures (mainly because most of the reason for the talk was gathering together large numbers of facts and figures from disparate sources). However, the attendees seemed to like it, despite the fact that I had to rush through part of it due to lack of time. --Malcolm -- Malcolm Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unix Systems Programmer Oxford University Computing Services
Re: [OT] Re: Repost: Anyone using virtual server for mod_perl hosts?
Hi guys, On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Malcolm Beattie wrote: you can run *thousands* of separate Linux images on a S/390 How much, to the nearest order of magnitude, does a S/390 cost? 73, Ged.
Re: Repost: Anyone using virtual server for mod_perl hosts?
Robert Landrum writes: The S390 appearently runs some type of software that allows you to set limits on your partitions, so no matter what, you always have some percentage of the CPU at your disposal. It's called VM and it's a lot more flexible than that. This is not the case with the Sun 1. With that machine, you must explicity set which processors you want partitioned to your virtual box. With a 16 processor Sun 1, you could set up four, four processor Sun virtual machines, all sharing the same hard drives and external adapters (NIC cards and serial ports). Exactly: with E10k (and IBM NUMAQ) you are limited to splitting things up at a "quad" (4 processor) boundary. Large systems like this are dying, I think you misspelled "beginning to be even more popular" :-) as they generally require much more knowledge than simply establishing a server farm of the same capabilities. It's much easier to higher people to set up 50 boxes (linux, NT, BSD, Solaris) than it is to find people that can configure an S390 or Sun 1. 50 boxes: no problem. 200 boxes: 5 racks or 1U, getting messy. 1000 boxes: admin nightmare. Plus you don't get much too many built-in reliability features with a 1U box. Now consider that you can run *thousands* of separate Linux images on a S/390 box which consists of just one or two frames (i.e. the size of one or two racks). It'll need hooking up to a rack or few of disks too. Far less floor space, far less power, far more reliable, far fewer cables and mess, very easy to create a new virtual machine (minutes), pretty much all maintenance and upgrading is concurrent and you can admin the whole lot from one place. Now isn't that worth having to learn a bit about how to admin a VM system? Especially since you wouldn't want some random cheap admin looking after that many boxes and customers anyway. There was a test/benchmark done where more and more Linux virtual machines were added to a system, each running Apache or INN or being a client image pulling data from the server images. The experiment was to see how many images the system could sustain. At 3 images the server images were still providing subsecond response time. The system finally started thrashing at 41400 concurrent virtual machines. I can dig out refs if people want (it was David Boyes who did it, if I recall). In practical terms, you can put thousands of virtual machines on one system: there are big advantages to sharing one large machine. The most recent big name to go Linux/390 is Telia, the Swedish Telco. See http://www.silicon.com/a41413 for an article about it (yeah, I get a quote :-). --Malcolm -- Malcolm Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unix Systems Programmer Oxford University Computing Services
Anyone using virtual server for mod_perl hosts?
hi, due to some fairly complex issues (money, or lack thereof), I am considering turning a mod_perl server from co-location into a 'virtual server' service, like Verio offers. Far from asking if it is a good solution (I know it is not) I'd like to know if its feasible. I have been managing remote co-located servers for quite a while, so I am already used to the impotence of not being able to kick the box when it misbehaves. In fact, last time I got really angry at a box I got a my fist cut, hitting it. So remote boxen might turn out to be healthier for my temper ;) Is anyone using a 'virtual server' succesfully? Or have a horror story? Know of companies other than verio? Oh! and before anyone points it out, yes, it low -- low -- low traffic. The current server never gets more than 0.5 load average. Martin
Re: Anyone using virtual server for mod_perl hosts?
On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Martin Langhoff wrote: hi, due to some fairly complex issues (money, or lack thereof), I am considering turning a mod_perl server from co-location into a 'virtual server' service, like Verio offers. Check Berkman's stories about mod_perl hosting at http://apachetoday.com. There was some links to mod_perl hosting providers. Far from asking if it is a good solution (I know it is not) I'd like to know if its feasible. I have been managing remote co-located servers for quite a while, so I am already used to the impotence of not being able to kick the box when it misbehaves. In fact, last time I got really angry at a box I got a my fist cut, hitting it. So remote boxen might turn out to be healthier for my temper ;) Is anyone using a 'virtual server' succesfully? Or have a horror story? Know of companies other than verio? Oh! and before anyone points it out, yes, it low -- low -- low traffic. The current server never gets more than 0.5 load average. Martin Vasily Petrushin +7 (095) 2508363 http://www.interfax.ru mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anyone using virtual server for mod_perl hosts?
Bekman, I'm sorry. Excuse me, Stas... On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Martin Langhoff wrote: hi, due to some fairly complex issues (money, or lack thereof), I am considering turning a mod_perl server from co-location into a 'virtual server' service, like Verio offers. Far from asking if it is a good solution (I know it is not) I'd like to know if its feasible. I have been managing remote co-located servers for quite a while, so I am already used to the impotence of not being able to kick the box when it misbehaves. In fact, last time I got really angry at a box I got a my fist cut, hitting it. So remote boxen might turn out to be healthier for my temper ;) Is anyone using a 'virtual server' succesfully? Or have a horror story? Know of companies other than verio? Oh! and before anyone points it out, yes, it low -- low -- low traffic. The current server never gets more than 0.5 load average. Martin Vasily Petrushin +7 (095) 2508363 http://www.interfax.ru mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Repost: Anyone using virtual server for mod_perl hosts?
As many people understood I mean some kind of virtual host service, I would like to restate my question. There are companies (Verio at least) offering a 'virtual machine' running a virtualized OS. Verio is offering NetBSD and Solaris. They have a seriouly large iron where many virtual machines run, each virtual machine gets a share of CPU, HD and RAM resources, an at least an IP address. In there is a full OS, and you get to be root for about $150 a month. It's a cheap alternative to co-location, a middle ground between a good virtual hosting service and owning a box. You can run your own MTA, compile whatever the hell you want, etc, although they offer a bunch of services out-of-the-box and have a lot of useful --if annoying-- cron jobs rotating your logs, monitoring the temperature of your daemons, feeding the dog and whatnot. Of course, you get to share resources with a bunch of other customers. It seems a great environment to set up a low traffic / highly customized server, like apache+mod_perl. Now, I know and understand the services they offer, but I have never actually used one with mod_perl. Now, has anyone tried this services? Do I have to worry about anything? Why didn't Stas list them in his article? -- they don't appear in the Guide either -- Do they have a fundamental or practical flaw I can't see? Martin
Re: Repost: Anyone using virtual server for mod_perl hosts?
On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Martin Langhoff wrote: There are companies (Verio at least) offering a 'virtual machine' running a virtualized OS. Verio is offering NetBSD and Solaris. They have a seriouly large iron where many virtual machines run, each virtual machine gets a share of CPU, HD and RAM resources, an at least an IP address. Woah.. I had never heard of this. Have you actually been on a box? I'm calling them to see if a demo is available. My guess would be that no matter how well they slice it, you're still sharing hardware, and if some guy is running 100 java servlets on the 'real' box that you're sharing, you're gonna have to fight for time. It's only an extra $60 or so to get a 'real' machine somewhere.. It depends, like everything else, on your needs. I'll let you know if they let me on a box. :) -- Blue Lang, Unix Voodoo Priesthttp://www.gator.net/~blue 202 Ashe Ave, Apt 3, Raleigh, NC. 919 835 1540 "A computer is a state machine. Threads are for people who can't program state machines." - Alan Cox, From Larry McVoy's quote page
Re: Repost: Anyone using virtual server for mod_perl hosts?
Blue Lang wrote: Woah.. I had never heard of this. Have you actually been on a box? I'm calling them to see if a demo is available. I have been on such a box, once. Unluckily, I wasn't root, so I could not do much there. Of course, if someone is eating up resources, I'll have to fight them... spawn a few mod_perl processes in core, and I guess every other virtual machine will be running from swap ;) m
Re: Repost: Anyone using virtual server for mod_perl hosts?
On a visit to Alaska (the Perl Whirl) we visited the Alaska Department of Technology or something similar (I honestly don't remember) where they were running an IBM S390 with partitions for NT, Linux, and a few other operating systems. The S390 appearently runs some type of software that allows you to set limits on your partitions, so no matter what, you always have some percentage of the CPU at your disposal. This is not the case with the Sun 1. With that machine, you must explicity set which processors you want partitioned to your virtual box. With a 16 processor Sun 1, you could set up four, four processor Sun virtual machines, all sharing the same hard drives and external adapters (NIC cards and serial ports). Large systems like this are dying, as they generally require much more knowledge than simply establishing a server farm of the same capabilities. It's much easier to higher people to set up 50 boxes (linux, NT, BSD, Solaris) than it is to find people that can configure an S390 or Sun 1. Rob Blue Lang wrote: Woah.. I had never heard of this. Have you actually been on a box? I'm calling them to see if a demo is available. I have been on such a box, once. Unluckily, I wasn't root, so I could not do much there. Of course, if someone is eating up resources, I'll have to fight them... spawn a few mod_perl processes in core, and I guess every other virtual machine will be running from swap ;) m
Re: Repost: Anyone using virtual server for mod_perl hosts?
Hi there, On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Blue Lang wrote: There are companies (Verio at least) offering a 'virtual machine' running a virtualized OS. Verio is offering NetBSD and Solaris. They have a seriouly large iron where many virtual machines run, each virtual machine gets a share of CPU, HD and RAM resources, an at least an IP address. Woah.. I had never heard of this. Have you actually been on a box? I'm calling them to see if a demo is available. There's also VMware. I think that's what it's called. Josh? 73, Ged.
