Re: [Monotone-devel] Status of blue sky ideas?
Stephen Leake stephen_le...@stephe-leake.org writes: On the other hand, almost everyone on comp.lang.ada agrees that I'm an outlier when it comes to any computer tool (for example, I use Ada and Emacs unless forced not to :), so my position on things doesn't seem to be worth much these days ... There are two of us :) -- Ludovic Brenta. ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
Re: [Monotone-devel] Status of blue sky ideas?
Thomas Keller wrote: Am 13.12.11 00:33, schrieb Judson Lester: [...] So, seeing an email from a few months back that seemed to suggest that monotone is kind of done - no one seems to be keen to continue development, and everyone seems satisfied - was a little disheartening. What is the status of monotone as a project? Software - and especially Open Source software - is only insofar complete as long as no one complains about something and eventually hacks on it. The thing with monotone now is probably that there are just too few people using and therefor possibly complaining (enough) about stuff. And even if they'd complain, the alternatives seem - most of the time - much more attractive. I used git recently, and quite frankly give me monotone any time. Git is far too complex in certain areas and it's easy to loose stuff. Very fast though. We use Perforce at work, quite good really. But again with great power comes great complexity. Monotone does 98% of what most people want out of an SCM system but it is very simple to do the important things (not so with Perforce). The die-die-die merge could be a lot better, git has a nice way of doing it (but then it needs to be good as it seems rubbish at the actual auto-merging itself). Hopefully more people are using it than we think and are just happy with it - I know dream on... Perhaps more plugging of mtn on the internet? To get the git rejects? Also a lot of people put a lot of effort into getting 1.0 out the door. I'm nearly there with mtn-browse. And it's only natural that people take a breather afterwards... I will. monotone's code base ages in the meantime, and while it is still very, very sophisticated in many areas, it might just scare away younger devs because its C++, and not Ruby, or Python, or Java. So yes, development kind of ceased, and I'm not happy on that fact either, but its actually all about participation. It brings us nothing to whine about the fact that nobody hacks on it; if you, or me or anybody else _cares_ about monotone and starts hacking on it again, than it will live further, if not, it will die. Its as simple as that. Unfortunately my personal time for open source projects is very, very limited these days, so I cannot bring much into this anymore. We really need fresh blood... Thomas. ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
Re: [Monotone-devel] Status of blue sky ideas?
On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 01:02:39AM +0100, Thomas Keller wrote: monotone's code base ages in the meantime, and while it is still very, very sophisticated in many areas, it might just scare away younger devs because its C++, and not Ruby, or Python, or Java. So sad. Not that they flee C++ for other languages, but sad for the other languages they flee to. When I fled C++ I went to Modula 3. It's really too bad the user community for Modula 3 is so small. My only complaint about it is its wordy syntax. Where it matters -- semantics, speed, reliability, and static checking -- it's just fine. No, I'm not suggesting rewriting monotone in Modula 3. -- hendrik ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
Re: [Monotone-devel] Status of blue sky ideas?
On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 04:06:38PM -0800, Zack Weinberg wrote: However, all the core developers - me included, sad to say - have moved on to other projects, so there is no manpower to *do* any of these things, and it's hard to attract new people because nearly everyone is using git or hg these days. My experience seems to be git or svn. I suspect svn, git, or hg interoperability would be a win. If it's conceptually ppossible. -- hendrik ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
Re: [Monotone-devel] Status of blue sky ideas?
CooSoft Support supp...@coosoft.plus.com writes: [...] Git is far too complex in certain areas and it's easy to loose stuff. Too complex? In some sense, yes. The set of commands is rather random, not consistent (it's obvious that much of it grew rather than being designed). I disagree that it's easy to lose things: it's easy to throw things away, but once you've committed something it's difficult to lose it (unless you remove .git, which I guess isn't impossible coming from monotone where the database is outside your checkout). [...] Perhaps more plugging of mtn on the internet? To get the git rejects? Make sure you've got something to offer. Back in the day there weren't many practical DVCSs, but nowadays I'd guess that fossil would be a more likely refuge for people who don't like git or mercurial. (Not sure who bazaar attracts; I find it peculiarly opaque.) [...] ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
Re: [Monotone-devel] Status of blue sky ideas?
On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 06:41:42PM +, Bruce Stephens wrote: Make sure you've got something to offer. Back in the day there weren't many practical DVCSs, but nowadays I'd guess that fossil would be a more likely refuge for people who don't like git or mercurial. (Not sure who bazaar attracts; I find it peculiarly opaque.) Doesn't Ubuntu use bazaar? If so, Ubuntu developers would use it. -- hendrik ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
Re: [Monotone-devel] Status of blue sky ideas?
Bruce Stephens wrote: CooSoft Support supp...@coosoft.plus.com writes: [...] Git is far too complex in certain areas and it's easy to loose stuff. Too complex? In some sense, yes. The set of commands is rather random, not consistent (it's obvious that much of it grew rather than being designed). I disagree that it's easy to lose things: it's easy to throw things away, but once you've committed something it's difficult to lose it (unless you remove .git, which I guess isn't impossible coming from monotone where the database is outside your checkout). I was thinking about divergences from non-head revisions, in mtn you just get two heads on the same branch. In git it goes off branch and the only way you can get back to it is to remember the sha1 hash on the revision. If it isn't put on a branch then it gets pruned when you do a git gc.. Other things are also more clunky. [...] Perhaps more plugging of mtn on the internet? To get the git rejects? Make sure you've got something to offer. Back in the day there weren't many practical DVCSs, but nowadays I'd guess that fossil would be a more likely refuge for people who don't like git or mercurial. (Not sure who bazaar attracts; I find it peculiarly opaque.) hehe - a lot of people do not get on with git, goodness knows how many do. mtn is very good at the day to day stuff, branching merging etc and the merging on git can make a real mess - I know I have had to sort it out (and yes mtn under the same conditions did it perfectly). The only reason I don't recommend mtn in all situations is for MS-Windows users that are used to desktop integration. Perhaps that is an area to concentrate on, [...] ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
Re: [Monotone-devel] Status of blue sky ideas?
Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com writes: On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 06:41:42PM +, Bruce Stephens wrote: Make sure you've got something to offer. Back in the day there weren't many practical DVCSs, but nowadays I'd guess that fossil would be a more likely refuge for people who don't like git or mercurial. (Not sure who bazaar attracts; I find it peculiarly opaque.) Doesn't Ubuntu use bazaar? If so, Ubuntu developers would use it. And GNU Emacs. But apart from projects that have some political reason to use it, I'm not sure who it would attract. But that may just be that I don't understand it (probably because I've mostly avoided using it). ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
Re: [Monotone-devel] Status of blue sky ideas?
CooSoft Support supp...@coosoft.plus.com writes: Bruce Stephens wrote: [...] I was thinking about divergences from non-head revisions, in mtn you just get two heads on the same branch. In git it goes off branch and the only way you can get back to it is to remember the sha1 hash on the revision. If it isn't put on a branch then it gets pruned when you do a git gc.. Other things are also more clunky. Technically not true, but I take your point. It can certainly be non-trivial to find work that you just know you committed. Not (ordinarily) impractical. The user manual has a section on it (Recovering lost changes). [...] hehe - a lot of people do not get on with git, goodness knows how many do. Certainly true. And mercurial seems quite attractive to many: it's similarly fast and space-efficient but with a saner command set. mtn is very good at the day to day stuff, branching merging etc and the merging on git can make a real mess - I know I have had to sort it out (and yes mtn under the same conditions did it perfectly). Could be. I've not noticed any particular problems: for me git's merging has been adequate, really fast, and the rerere support allows it to cope with repeated similar merges (admittedly that seems quite hacky, but it works OK). Quite possibly I'm just used to the pain. What I'm not sure is, given that someone finds the git commands confusing (which isn't difficult to believe) and doesn't like mercurial, how plausible the monotone story is. I think I'd look at bazaar and fossil next (not sure in what order). fossil also uses sqlite (is originally written by the author of sqlite) and gives a wiki, bug tracker, web interface as well as a DVCS. ___ Monotone-devel mailing list Monotone-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monotone-devel
