Re: [Mpls] youth sports

[Annie Young]

It is my understanding that the School and Park Board are having a joint 
meeting on April 17th (?) at which time we are going to discuss the report 
and how we can better work together on this topic.
Annie Young
citywide Park Commissioner




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[Mpls] Should we use kids to teach kids?

[Socialist2001]

An off-list response to a previous Email stated

>  I don't want to send my kids to a school that wants to use them to teach
>  other kids.  I'm disturbed by your comment that tutorial "could be done by
>  the students themselves." If you're saying that the faster kids should be
>  conscripted to help the slower kids, then that's a huge problem. 

What I am proposing is to have kids work together in activities that 
reinforce material that the teacher presents to the class.  That's what I 
mean by tutorial activities.  When a teacher is heavily engaged in tutorial 
activities that could be delegated to the students, the teacher is less able 
to assist and challenge all students.  Why?  Individualized educational 
planning requires active observation, troubleshooting, and one-on-one 
assessments.  It's not a zero-sum game where some kids are benefiting at the 
expense of others.  Even the high-performers are better off.  

NAEP data shows that from 1971 to the mid-1980s the test score gap 
dramatically narrowed while outcomes for the high performers steadily 
improved.  That was the era of "mainstreaming" students with special needs, 
the widespread rejection of ability-grouping, and school desegregation.  

As I noted before, K-12 education experts selected by the Reagan-Bush 
administration who produced the 1983 report, "A Nation at Risk," found that 
efforts by America's public schools to close the gap had gone too far.  What 
they were concerned about was the effect of closing the gap on the class 
structure of American society.  How do you justify huge income disparities 
without huge education disparities?

-Doug Mann
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[Mpls] What is Ability-Grouping?

[Socialist2001]

In an off-list message, the following questions were put to me

<  I have been confused for a while about what you call ability grouping. It
>  seems you are talking about something a little more than splitting up into
>  groups during reading or math time, or are you? Would you please explain, 
in
>  detail, what ability grouping is, who does it, when it started, why its 
bad,
>  etc. I think people, including me might be confusing it with something 
else.
>  Thank you.

Thanks for the questions. 

"Ability-grouping" in a first grade classroom may involve nothing more than 
splitting up students into high-, medium-, and low-ability groups during 
reading and / or math time.  The "low ability learners" in a first grade 
reading class may be doing the same type of pre-literacy activities they did 
in kindergarten.  The kids in the advanced group cover the most ground, the 
kids in the lowest level group cover the least.  The middle groups fall 
somewhere in between. 

Whole classroom instruction is generally geared to the more advanced 
students.  When it's time for whole classroom instruction in spelling and 
writing practice, for example, the non-reading kids are lost.  For the most 
part the "low ability learners" are face with school work that is either too 
easy or too hard. They become demotivated. And they have to accept the idea 
that they are "low ability," i.e., stupid.  This is a very difficult 
adjustment for most children.  A lot of these kids act out, are diagnosed as 
having Emotional-Behavioral Disorders, and are forced to take psychoactive 
drugs and participate in behavior modification programs.

Ability grouping kids in kindergarten or grade one is justified with a theory 
that the learning capacity of a child entering kindergarten or grade one is, 
by then, an innate, immutable characteristic.  The purpose of 
ability-grouping is to help children better "actualize" their innate learning 
potential.

Why, when, and where was ability grouping introduced in the elementary 
grades?  Ability-grouping became the preferred educational model during the 
1950s and 60s.  The departments of education in all 50 states and the federal 
government promoted it. White supremacists supported ability-grouping as a 
way to preserve a color based caste system -- The National Association for 
the Advancement of Colored People and other civil rights groups opposed it.  

The federal courts ruled that ability-grouping is legal because it's "color 
blind."  It's discrimination based on ability, not race.  The Courts also 
stipulated that students must be frequently reassessed and have the 
opportunity to move up and down the academic ladder. However, even where 
ability-grouping is done nice and legal, you ordinarily see very little 
movement up and down the academic ladder.

-Doug Mann

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Re: Fwd: [Mpls] police bashing

[Robert Schmid]

RANDERSON wrote:

>I, for one, respect the police and the hazardous nature of their work.
>However, as one trained in defense techniques which require thought during
>the heightened moments of confrontation, I can not accept that the most
>likely alternative was the wanton taking of a human life. And, it is high
>time that we hold those empowered to serve and protect to do just that.
>Too often, when confronted with persons of color, rationale is subject to
the
>extreme, esoterical notion that un-bridled, in-human circumstance feeds
the
>frenzy. And, since the one confronting is considered sub-human, given to
the
>wildest extremes,  imaginable, over-whelming force is justified.

Thank you for saying this.  I am familiar with some of the techniques that
could have prevented this debacle, even though I am unable to use them.  I
happen know that the police department has in the past received training
from at least one instructor who teaches forms which specifically involve
machetes and other weapons of varying lengths.

The police seem to be too gun-centered.  There are other tools and
techniques available but everything we hear seems to be centered on whether
or not to use "the gun."

I respect the difficulties of the job the police are trying to do.
However, they wield the authority of the state and the power of life and
death and therefore I demand high standards from them.  I get very
concerned when I am told that they are unwilling to live in my
neighborhood.  This tells me that they are afraid of my neighborhood.  I
can not trust gun-wielding individuals who are more afraid of my
neighborhood than I am.

I know what it's like to have a gun pointed at me by someone who is
afraid.  Anyone in that condition is unpredictable and dangerous.


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Re: [Mpls] Need for Independent of Investigation of Police Shooting

[Rosalind Nelson]

Jordan Kushner, arguing for an independent investigation, wrote:

> The Hennepin County Sheriff is separate
> from the police deparment only in the most technical sense, but in reality
> works hand-in-hand with the police department on a daily basis.  Its
> "investigations" of these incidents are superficial and focused on
> corroborating the police officer's accounts.

During last year's public hearings over Chief Olson, the sheriff described Olson
as his good friend and spoke forcefully in favor of his reappointment.  He did
this while investigations into police shootings of Barbara Schnieder and Alfred
Sanders were still open.  I don't think the sheriff's office even pretends to be
independent in these matters.

Rosalind Nelson
Bancroft neighborhood




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Fwd: [Mpls] police bashing

[RANDERSON67]

 

--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 3/11/2002 1:36:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


If I am confronted by a man walking down the street
with a machete, I want the police to use the force
they deem necessary to protect me, and not have to
hesitate worrying about knee-jerk public reaction if
they pull the trigger.


Maybe the police vehicle can rest easy tonight knowing that the police will shoot to kill anyone that "attacks" it with a machette. Which officer was threatened by this act? How far a leap is it from hitting  at inanimate objects to believe that one is imperiled? What of the woman who followed this gentleman asking him to lay down the machette? Was she attacked. Are we to leap to the conclusion that this soul was braver than our police in trying to reason with this person? Before you respond with a "knee jerk" retort, please remember that she did not have mace, tasers, leaded batons (ever been exposed to hand to hand combat? do you know how easy it is to dis-arm a person with a simple lead filled baton?).

A number of officers armed with the means to dis-arm felons, especially in concerted effort, or, with overwhelming physical presence, can not take down an individual  armed with non projectile, minimal threat weaponry?? How much protection does this kind of combatant offer you in confrontation with anything? Seems to me that they are decidedly  un-skilled at policing. Either that, or they are impervious to the wanton destruction of human life in the name of protecting, or serving, any interest but their own. 

I, for one, respect the police and the hazardous nature of their work. However, as one trained in defense techniques which require thought during the heightened moments of confrontation, I can not accept that the most likely alternative was the wanton taking of a human life. And, it is high time that we hold those empowered to serve and protect to do just that. Too often, when confronted with persons of color, rationale is subject to the extreme, esoterical notion that un-bridled, in-human circumstance feeds the frenzy. And, since the one confronting is considered sub-human, given to the wildest extremes,  imaginable, over-whelming force is justified.

Without assigning blame, the officers involved in this execution should be examined to determine what thought processes are apparent in meeting such challenges. Untill we face adversity and are forced to "think" of our response, no citizen can be considered  safe.

Robert Anderson
8th Ward
--- End Message ---

Re: [Mpls] Re: police oversight continued

[Jhpalmerjp]

Walt, you raise several good points about caution regarding this situation.  
And we should be wary of making sweeping generalizations about the police 
department or "murder" et. al.  We cannot afford to demonize the police not 
because they might go somewhere else to work, but because it's not the right 
thing to do.  These are men and women who put their lives on the line 
everyday to protect our community and our lives.  That kind of commitment 
deserves and demands our respect.  

But just like with any other job or position, you will have good and bad 
people.  I saw one of the good ones today, one of our neighborhood SAFE 
officers.  Talked with him at the bookstore, he's a great guy.  That doesn't 
mean that every officer is great or exercises the same restraint of judgement 
he does.  And while we don't need to demonize them, we also have to recognize 
the mood of the community and the reality of what seems to keep happening, 
not just here, but nationwide.  People of color are being shot and killed in 
a manner that can only be described as overkill.

I'll reserve my opinion until we have all the facts, but already those facts 
are starting to become muddled.  One source says the man was waving wildly 
another says he had his hands by his side.  One says he got back up too 
quickly for police to subdue him another that he was on the ground when he 
was shot.  When the facts all come out, hopefully we'll have a better 
understanding, however, investigations into situations like this seem to 
either drift away or officers are exonerated.  One need only look at Rodney 
King, Amadou Diallo or Abuka Sanders to see that something doesn't seem to 
make sense.  Justice sometimes is not only blind but also unconscious.

Andy, really brought out the point well (thank you sir) about living with 
this fear and concern.  Everyday people of color and other disadvantaged 
groups worry if this is the day that something happens.  It is not that far 
in the past when officers of the law killed or harmed them for sport or 
spite, and while this is no longer that time, all of those people, 
unfortunately, are not gone.  We must be ever vigilant, because we never know 
when the next "accidental" shooting might take place.  History may be of the 
past, but it does have a long memory, and a tendency to repeat itself.  

The first time something of this nature happens, one might be wary yet still 
understanding.  The second time, a little more cautious.  But when you come 
from a history of this type of thing and it happens with the consistency that 
it has, you become alarmed.  And when each time you hear, "calm down, we'll 
look into it", with apologies to Fannie Lou, you become "sick and tired of 
being sick and tired."

The question is not just what happened yesterday, but also how long?  How 
long do we have to continue to watch people die especially the overwhelming 
slant to people of color, before we do something serious?  How long do we 
have to do studies and analyses before we begin to really address the 
problem?  Most importantly, how long will people remain calm about these 
situations before they explode?  How long before those inalienable rights of 
life, liberty and pursuit of happiness are given more than just lip service 
in the face of tragedy and justice?

Lord knows, it's about time.

We do need to keep from going overboard, but it's important to also keep this 
situation in perspective.  It is not just the incident yesterday, it is a 
part of a larger dynamic that permeates our society and must be dealt with.  
I was glad, although not surprised to see R.T. and Dean Z. at the press 
conference this morning and appreciate the response they have made thus far.  
I hope that they continue to move in the direction that I see them going and 
that they push to make certain that a full disclosure of the facts is 
realized and that justice not only is served, but real systemic changes are 
brought about to address the root of this issue and not just the symptoms.

Jonathan Palmer
Stevens Square-Loring Heights
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[Mpls] youth sports

[Dennis Schapiro]

Good posts from Rick Kuhlmann and Dean Carlson. My kids' major sport was
soccer and I can remember the look of horror on the faces of suburban
kids when they played on the "rugged" fields at Bryn Mawr.

As a Board of Education rep to the Youth Coordinating Board, I encourage
 list members to give some thought to Becky Boland's suggestion that
they get more information on McKinley Boston's recommendations regarding
youth sports. There is talk about a vote on the recommendations in a month.

I think it is fair to summarize the recommendations:

-- Either the schools should get serious about middle school sports or
get out of the business entirely and support recreation/entrepreneurial
programs offered through the parks and elsewhere.

-- That a citywide Youth Sports Advisory Board and a Citywide AAU
Traveling Assn. be created to promote youth sports.

-- Work on shared facilities

-- Introduce a "Youth Sports Curriculum"

(If that's not adequate, maybe Becky or another list member familiar
with the recommendations can elaborate.)

Got recommendations?

Obviously there's lots going on, but this might be a moment in time to
begin a discussion about youth sports in Minneapolis. A little late for
baseball this spring, but a timely topic nonetheless.

And if anyone would like to take a larger context, I suggest that we as
a city make a commitment that every child has significant opportunities
for sports, arts and service. (Admittedly short on specifics, but
perhaps a discussion starter.)

Any takers?

Dennis Schapiro
Linden Hills
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[Mpls] Re: Police bashing

[KTrain9003]

Chris Beckwith wrote:
>Indeed. The textbook  sounds rather suspect. More 
>importantly, we'd like to know where in the textbook 
>it says 15 bullets are required to immobilize a
>street schizophrenic. Shall we look in the index, 
>perhaps under "Overkill?"
   
The man would not put down his machete. Taser 
fire was ineffective. If you were a police officer, 
would you take the chance of being chopped into dog
food in order to handcuff this man? You have to stop
him from continuing to roam the neighborhood, and 
your tools are limited. Current training calls for 
you to continue shooting until the suspect stops.
 There might be other and better methods that 
could be used, but they are not part of the MPD's
toolbox at this point. If we are going to allow the
mentally ill to wander the streets until they 
become "a danger to themselves or others" the MPD
is going to need those tools. 

>Wouldn't a single bullet to the leg have been 
>sufficient?
 The members of the U.S. pistol team weren't available to respond to the incident, 
and no, a 
single bullet would not have been sufficient.
Seriously, hitting somebody in the leg (or arm,
or hand) is damned difficult shooting under the
best of conditions except for a trained sniper,
and even they are not trained to hit people in 
the leg/arm/hand. If you want to stop someone
with a gun, you have to hit them in the chest
or stomach. You are most likely to hit them and 
stop them that way. Anyone trained in the use of 
firarmss knows this, whether they are hunters, 
police, soldiers or Marines.
 The only place this "shoot them in the leg
with your pistol"  nonsense works is on TV or 
in the movies. 

 The deaths of mentally ill people shot by
the MPD are not the sole responsibility of the 
"trigger-happy" police. All of us who supported
deinstitutionalizing the insane bear partial 
responsibility for their deaths. These people
needed close supervision in a supportive setting,
and instead they wound up being shot to death 
because the police are simply not equipped to 
deal with them. I hope Mayor Rybak and the 
Council can get the police what they need, since 
I'm afraid the other half of the problem won't be
solved anywhere near as quickly.

Kevin Trainor
6-10, Phillips
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RE: [Mpls] police bashing

[info]

Thought folks might be interested in a 1998 Human Rights 
Watch report on police brutality and use of force in a number 
of urban police departments across the country, including 
Minneapolis.  It's available on-line at:

http://www.hrw.org/reports98/police/uspo84.htm

Take care,

Gregory Luce
North Phillips (work)
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[Mpls] we're back!!.. encore for the Boulevard

[Sueherr]

For those of you who thought the controversy surrounding this particular 
mixed-use housing development was done, think again.  Catch this issue of the 
Southwest Journal - Brent Killackey's story - "Loading zone legislation could 
hamper Boulevard housing project"   (
http://www.swjournal.com/display/inn_news/news04.txt).  

(This story was picked up in part by the Star Tribune  last week, but Brent 
really nailed it) 

The opponents of this project, not content with being trounced at the 
neighborhood level, the Zoning and Planning Committee, the City Council and 
the appeal to the City Council... have managed to finagle legislation (or at 
least an amendment to a transportation bill which is currently under 
consideration in the House)  to change state law in order to make the single, 
not-too-controversial variance granted by the City Council for this project,  
illegal.  If passed, every city in the state would have to contend with these 
restrictions on their ability to grant variances.   And all, apparently, to 
stop the little Boulevard.  Geesh!

Tenacity is generally thought to be a positive quality, but this is getting a 
little scary.   We can only hope that the opponents of this project don't 
have any pull with President Bush - or that these self-same opponents wake up 
and decide that they need to get a life.  

Susan Herridge
Lynnhurst
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Re: [Mpls] PP on Mpls LRT redevelopment

[Jack Kryst]

> In case you missed it, from this morning's PiPress:
>
> http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/2833470.htm
>
> David Brauer
> List manager
>
One correction -- $1.6 million was provided by the Met Council for Hiawatha
Lake but little of it was for acquisition.

$1,500,000 was from Supplemental Transit Funds for station improvements to
link the station to the future development (still being created by the
community) and more pedestrian-friendly environs (escalators, central
at-grade lobby for access to station, vestibule with curtain walls that can
be reconfigured to accept future concourse connection into adjacent new
development, additional weather protection and plaza.

  An additional $100,000 is targeted for land assembly when things progress
to that point.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jack Kryst
Kingfield


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[Mpls] Death on a Sunday afternoon

[Eileen Shore]

I have never posted a message before, but came here to find out what my
fellow citizens are thinking about this death, the fourth such death (if
deaths can be compared), since December 1999, according to the Pioneer
Press, and my memory.

The horror -- not  the horror of death, as I read the paper early this
morning, but the horror that the death seemed almost normal, this news that
a young, evidently disturbed man, walking down a city street in the
afternoon, close to my Franklin Avenue path to and from Mass earlier that
day, had been killed at the hands of police officers acting on my behalf.

Five people, five guns, five billy clubs, five trainings in subduing unruly
folks, and one dead man and his machete and his crow bar.  Was anyone
shocked when they read their papers or heard the TV news this morning?   I
spent seven years in another city, an Eastern city with its own reputation
for violence.  But until I came to this civilized, progressive, liberal
city, I had never heard of police officers killing mentally ill people.  And
now, after almost five years here, I am not shocked when I read about
another one.

It is wrong, and it is a wrong done in our name, for our protection we are
told, a reasonable action taken by reasonable people.  How can we balance
the pros and cons of whether it may be ok for our police officers to kill
under these circumstances?  We are responsible, we have allowed our power to
be used in this way, again and again and again, and, now, again.  Tell me
please, just who is mentally disturbed?  Who is the threat to public safety?
I am much more afraid of us than I am of a sick young man with a machete and
a crow bar.

Eileen Shore

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Re: [Mpls] re: police shooting

[Andy Driscoll]

If you're going to have a Civilian Review Board (and every place should), it
must be far more independent of the police than the ones now in place in
almost every city that has one.

Absolutely essential:  No cops on the board. Cops have already had their go
at the complaint by Internal Affairs, which denies 99% of them.

Rulings of the board to sustain a complaint are not reviewable by the chief
or any other cop. The officer(s) under scrutiny may appeal, of course, but
the only official allowed to overrule a Board vote is the Mayor.
--
The Police are the only major public service agency allowed to investigate
and rule on their own alleged misbehavior. Inspectors general and other
outside investigative mechanisms are in place for everyone else.

Interestingly, the knee-jerk response to citizen complaints by this and
every other chief is always that the violence was righteous. No questions,
officers are always right right off the bat. Never mind when the eyewitness
evidence is overwhelmingly the opposite. No wonder the trust level is rock
bottom. This is the shame of the otherwise wonderful City of Minneapolis:
its police department. Its long-standing reputation for politics, corruption
and uncorrected violence goes back decades, perhaps a century, who knows? I
was proposing to do an investigative documentary on the Minneapolis Police
as far back as 1979 for Channel 2. I wasn't allowed to pursue it. They were
ripe for it then. They're ripe for it now.

Yesterday's shooting is no isolated incident. Anyone not willing to admit
that is in a serious state of denial. It's part of a pattern of
institutional violence in this and many other police departments everywhere
else in this country.

I won't even start in on my many eyewitness accounts of inappropriate police
behavior - on and off duty - during the ten years I spent in Detroit. The
racism in police forces is epidemic and entrenched. And the communities of
color in every city and town in the USA know the kind of fear we whites will
never know:  they really *are* out to get us - every day in every way.
Walking on eggshells around your own neighborhood or city is no way to live,
but black folks and brown folks and other powerless people experience that
fear every time they set foot outdoors. And sometimes not even then.

It comes to them.

When will our elected leadership brace themselves and screw up the courage
to really overhaul the police culture? Can it be?

I wish I knew.

Andy Driscoll
Saint Paul
--
"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied
corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of
strength, and bid defiance to the laws of the country."
--- Thomas Jefferson,1816

> From: "sue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 20:40:47 -0600
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [Mpls] re:  police shooting
> 
> too bad the powers that be decided in their infinite wisdom to get rid
> of the civilian review board.  yet those on the council want to have
> better relations between civilians and police.  sadly, this recent
> shooting (was it necessary to shoot at this unarmed man repeatedly until
> he was killed?) does nothing to ease the tension between community and
> police.
> 
> sue ahachich
> ward 3
> 
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> 

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RE: [Mpls] Re: police oversight continued

[Walt Cygan]

Great idea! A second, non-lethal option in this kind of circumstance
(where the person involved doesn't have a gun) would certainly seem to
have a lot of merit. 

Walt Cygan
Keewaydin

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf
Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 8:44 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Mpls] Re: police oversight continued

I was wondering why the police aren't carrying those wonderful beanbag
shotguns? A crisis team might consider having them as an alternative to
using bullets. Brandishing a machete and crowbar is a good example of
where
such a tool might have been a de-escalator.

Just a thought, from Stevens Square.

Deidre

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Walt Cygan
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 8:25 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Mpls] Re: police oversight continued


I have been one of the biggest supporters of the police on this list,
but even *I* know that something is wrong. I would appreciate it,
however, if some people would turn down the rhetoric just a touch. I
don't thing anything is gained by using words and phrases like "murder",
"trigger happy" and "the taste of blood in its mouth." I still don't
believe that individual officers go out on patrol thinking it's a good
day to kill somebody.

Robin Garwood said it best. We have to examine the "book", if indeed
this incident went by it. We also have to examine the fitness of a Chief
who could see nothing wrong with this shooting.

One cautionary note, though. Be careful about the dangers of bringing
about a mob mentality which demonizes the cops. If the average to
excellent MPD officer feels that citizens are only out to find cops
doing something wrong, those will be the cops that find jobs in other
cities where the attitude isn't so polarized. What sort of cop will that
leave us with? The ones who can't find jobs elsewhere. That won't be a
good outcome for anybody. Let's remember that the carrot generally (but
not always) works better than the stick in bringing about positive
change. And I think we all want positive change.

We have to demand accountability, but let's try to do it less shrilly.
Let's examine the "book" and demand reform, but let's bring down the
level of our voices so the Police Department can hear the words and not
just the anger.

R.T.: Thanks for reaching out to the community.

Community: Try to understand that it is in no one's best interest for
these incidents to occur. People of good hearts will try to fix what is
wrong.

Walt Cygan
Keewaydin



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[Mpls] PP on Mpls LRT redevelopment

[List Manager]

In case you missed it, from this morning's PiPress:

http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/2833470.htm

David Brauer
List manager


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Re: [Mpls] Qwest cuts back on Zipcodes

[michael libby]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Monday 11 March 2002 01:36 pm, Alan Shilepsky wrote:

> Feeling very inconvenienced, and wondering if Qwest it trying to help
> FedEx or DHL or something,

Or maybe some insane copyright lawyer at the PO decided that they own the 
rights to the list of ZIP codes and therefore Qwest would have to license 
the list (and most certainly would need to license the software to help 
them ensure that they have the *correct* ZIP code for each address).

Or maybe they realized this was costing them money to print and was not a 
core competency of their business. And so it got axed.

Or maybe it was an oversight. Stranger things have been known to happen. :)

But to lighten your load. Here's a tool that provides the ZIP code plus 
the four digit appendage for not just Minneapolis, but the entire United 
States:

http://www.usps.com/ncsc/lookups/lookup_zip+4.html

And if you aren't sure where an address is in our fair city:

http://www.mapquest.com

(MapQuest will provide excellent maps, ZIP+4 AND aerial photographs!)

  - Michael Libby, Cleveland/North Minneapolis

- -- 
 __Michael_C_Libby__{_x_(at)_ichimunki_(dot)_com_}__
| "even monkeys fall from trees" : "saru mo ki kara ochiru" |
| private hotmail/yahoo email is deleted unread due to spam | 
| public key at http://www.ichimunki.com/public.key |

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQE8jWrE4ClW9KMwqnMRAkvJAJ96/yrUatk7hj3riOVcJMPcaMcQSQCffoO+
X/YnRPwRjBsNW3Efg5nZHJo=
=NbUk
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
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[Mpls] re: police shooting

[sue]

too bad the powers that be decided in their infinite wisdom to get rid 
of the civilian review board.  yet those on the council want to have 
better relations between civilians and police.  sadly, this recent 
shooting (was it necessary to shoot at this unarmed man repeatedly until 
he was killed?) does nothing to ease the tension between community and 
police.

sue ahachich
ward 3

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RE: [Mpls] Re: police oversight continued

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

I was wondering why the police aren't carrying those wonderful beanbag
shotguns? A crisis team might consider having them as an alternative to
using bullets. Brandishing a machete and crowbar is a good example of where
such a tool might have been a de-escalator.

Just a thought, from Stevens Square.

Deidre

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Walt Cygan
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 8:25 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Mpls] Re: police oversight continued


I have been one of the biggest supporters of the police on this list,
but even *I* know that something is wrong. I would appreciate it,
however, if some people would turn down the rhetoric just a touch. I
don't thing anything is gained by using words and phrases like "murder",
"trigger happy" and "the taste of blood in its mouth." I still don't
believe that individual officers go out on patrol thinking it's a good
day to kill somebody.

Robin Garwood said it best. We have to examine the "book", if indeed
this incident went by it. We also have to examine the fitness of a Chief
who could see nothing wrong with this shooting.

One cautionary note, though. Be careful about the dangers of bringing
about a mob mentality which demonizes the cops. If the average to
excellent MPD officer feels that citizens are only out to find cops
doing something wrong, those will be the cops that find jobs in other
cities where the attitude isn't so polarized. What sort of cop will that
leave us with? The ones who can't find jobs elsewhere. That won't be a
good outcome for anybody. Let's remember that the carrot generally (but
not always) works better than the stick in bringing about positive
change. And I think we all want positive change.

We have to demand accountability, but let's try to do it less shrilly.
Let's examine the "book" and demand reform, but let's bring down the
level of our voices so the Police Department can hear the words and not
just the anger.

R.T.: Thanks for reaching out to the community.

Community: Try to understand that it is in no one's best interest for
these incidents to occur. People of good hearts will try to fix what is
wrong.

Walt Cygan
Keewaydin



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Re: [Mpls] Does Sid Hartman have a political scoop?

[Don Jorovsky]

David Brauer asks:    "...did I miss an announcement? Is Pogey stepping down?  If so, there's another open seat in the city and another  big blow to Minneapolis-delegation seniority."   Don sez:   Not to worry!     I spoke to the good chair of the Senate Tax Committee  today and he is indeed running for re-election.  (He did wonder if Sid meant that he was shy and retiring, but no one was really sure if that was it.)   Don Jorovsky New Brighton (even farther North than the Fourth Ward!)  Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

RE: [Mpls] Re: police oversight continued

[Walt Cygan]

I have been one of the biggest supporters of the police on this list,
but even *I* know that something is wrong. I would appreciate it,
however, if some people would turn down the rhetoric just a touch. I
don't thing anything is gained by using words and phrases like "murder",
"trigger happy" and "the taste of blood in its mouth." I still don't
believe that individual officers go out on patrol thinking it's a good
day to kill somebody.

Robin Garwood said it best. We have to examine the "book", if indeed
this incident went by it. We also have to examine the fitness of a Chief
who could see nothing wrong with this shooting.

One cautionary note, though. Be careful about the dangers of bringing
about a mob mentality which demonizes the cops. If the average to
excellent MPD officer feels that citizens are only out to find cops
doing something wrong, those will be the cops that find jobs in other
cities where the attitude isn't so polarized. What sort of cop will that
leave us with? The ones who can't find jobs elsewhere. That won't be a
good outcome for anybody. Let's remember that the carrot generally (but
not always) works better than the stick in bringing about positive
change. And I think we all want positive change. 

We have to demand accountability, but let's try to do it less shrilly.
Let's examine the "book" and demand reform, but let's bring down the
level of our voices so the Police Department can hear the words and not
just the anger. 

R.T.: Thanks for reaching out to the community. 

Community: Try to understand that it is in no one's best interest for
these incidents to occur. People of good hearts will try to fix what is
wrong. 

Walt Cygan
Keewaydin



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[Mpls] Envying our sibling city

[List Manager]

If you want how a city can redistrict in public - and on the web -
check, check out St. Paul's site:

http://www.ci.stpaul.mn.us/depts/clerk/redistricting/index.html

Big kudos to the folks across the border! (And thanks to list member
Dave Harstad for pointing me to it.) This is one intercity rivalry
Minneapolis will hopefully join!

By the way, fallout from the Grow column: 24 new memberships between 7
a.m. and 7 p.m. (although one then unsubscribed). Membership is now at
an all-time high of 820 addresses.

David Brauer
List manager


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Re: [Mpls] A Middler's View on Ice Cream/New Flavor

[PennBroKeith]

In a message dated 3/11/02 1:29:34 PM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Sign me up!  Do we get to have our own caucus?
 
 Karen Collier
 Linden Hills
 
<< 
 In a message dated 3/11/02 11:32:42 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 writes:
 
 
 > I formally announce the support of the Moderate Mushy Middlers of 
 > Minneapolis for this proposal.
 >  
 > 
 

  >>
   Keith says; No, but the new inclusive flavor of the ''List", scooped in 
all quadrants of our fair parklands and City, should be named "Minneapolitan".
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[Mpls] Re: police oversight

[timothy connolly]

While it is perhaps unfair to second guess individual
police officers at this point in time so soon after a
shooting, especially by us with scant knowledge, can
we agree that there is room for improvement in both
police performance and police oversight?

Unfortunately we will never know the truth. We will
never feel confidence in the judgements made behind
closed doors without the participation of the public.

It is no consolation that the Hennepin Cty. Prosecutor
and the Sherriff's Dept. will conduct an
investigation.

They hardly maintain "arm's length" relationships with
MPD.

Forget about Internal Affairs. CRA, even when it was
fully funded? Ditto!

Whether or not any of these agencies can perform an
unbiased investigation is beside the point. They will
be perceived by a large part of the populace as having
a direct conflict of interest.

Roseanne Campagnoli of the Sherriff's Dept. said for
the press: "Anybody who is brandishing a machete and a
crowbar in a public area needs to be taken seriously"

I agree. To do otherwise would be foolish. 

What the police officers did not take seriously was
the life of Abu Jeilani. To them he was just what
Roseanne referred to: a man swinging a machete and
crowbar.

They did not see him as a mother's son, a member of a
community, a woman's husband, a child's father, or
just a human being in need of consideration that is
not administerd through the barrel of a gun.

One person referred to the MPD as being
"trigger-happy". Another shot back "what need is there
for an investigation when that is the attitude."

Indeed! What need is there for an investigation when
we have a police chief who all but exonerates officers
while urging the public to withhold judgement before
all the facts are known?

The Mayor's announcement that the HCSD will undertake
an independent investigation is about as consoling as
Joe Duffy conducting a thorough investigation at City
Hall in Regulatory Services.

If past performance is any indication of the future, I
wouldn't hold my breath in expectation of a thorough
and unbiased investigation.

More importantly, there will be no meaningful reform
of police procedures, training, philosophy, reporting,
etc until citizens are able to participate on an equal
footing with politicians and police administrators in
setting policy.

If you accept the idea that you cannot understand what
its like to put your life on the line as a cop then it
must also be true in reverse for the cops.

They need to understand what it means to be stopped on
a daily basis for no reason other than the color of
your skin. They need to feel what it is like to be
made to lay face down on the pavement or told to sit
on a curb while you watch your car be towed away for
minor infractions.

It might not hurt for them to have the cuffs put on
REAL TIGHT and get yanked off the ground by the cuffs.

It might be helpful for lone officers, one by one, to
go into a setting where they are surrounded by eight
to sixteen people wielding guns and shouting commands
at them in a second language.

How to explain schizophrenia or manic depression? Is
talking about hearing voices that supercede anything
they might tell you make sense.

How do you explain the fact that every step and breath
you have taken is foreordained and has brought you to
this spot and you won't move for hell nor high water.

Would it change anything? 

If one held a machete or a toy gun or was in a slow
rolling car?

What scares me about this police department is that it
has the taste of blood in its mouth institutionally.

The Crisis Intervention Training is something foisted
on this Chief. He wanted this like he wanted a hole in
the head. That is not meant to diss the cops who have
taken the training. 

It's window-dressing to him. Public Relations. What he
wants is to buy a new hovercraft or full riot gear for
600 officers that sits in an armory when it might do
some good in a cop car's trunk on Chicago and Franklin
where a confused man might be saved.

We need new recruitment practices, new training, etc.
We need to start from the ground up and build a new
police force that reflects the community but first we 
need a vocal army of citizens who are sick of having
blood on their hands from shared silence and who will
speak for those who can speak no longer.

Tim Connolly
Citizen 



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[Mpls] Re: police bashing

[Roxana Orrell]

It is clear what went wrong, and where the fix needs to come from.  The issue is 
training, and the Chief and others below him who determine what that training will be 
are the ultimate responsible parties.  There are three ways for any person - officers 
included - to react in a time of perceived danger:

1) Do as much damage as possible to stop any potential threat.  This includes spraying 
bullets, beating down the threat and anything in the way until it stops moving, etc.  
This approach is unconcerned with limiting damage only to the target, and others 
nearby are often hit.

2) Do whatever is necessary to stop the target.  This is the next level up - it 
requires training to shoot only the target, strike only the target, etc.

3)  Do what is necessary to stop the target while preserving life.  This is the most 
advanced level of training, where a combatant learns to fight well enough that she can 
control where a shot will go in the heat of the moment and avoid lethal damage, or 
disarm, immobilize, etc. with minimal permanent injury.

The Mpls cops seem to be at around level 2, with some backsliding to level 1.  Sadly, 
what few training programs teach is level 3 - either in skill level or, more 
importantly, in mind-set.  What the Mpls PD is failing to grasp is that we don't need 
a bunch of trigger-happy brainless thugs in uniform.  We need people who are better 
trained physically and mentally than the vast majority of the suspects they'll 
encounter.  What we see here are very poorly trained officers who haven't been 
prepared to not go berserk when the adrenaline hits and start emptying clips into 
people.

That turns the rest of the blame on the cops themselves.  They know what happened when 
a suspect goes to the morgue with 5 clips of bullets pumped into his body.  But we 
don't see them trying to get better training through the department, or on their own.  
Whether it's a matter of denial or loyalty taken to a damaging point, they're the 
other half of a vicious cycle that's creating an atmosphere for more murders by the 
police.  That same mind-set is also driving investigatory white-washes.

We've seen how well the police respond to the public when they cry foul over a 
particular tragic death.  However, rather than trying to fight an unjust review board 
decision after yet another murder, or asking for changes in procedure (cops are NOT 
thinking about procedure when their adrenaline is bursting their eardrums), we can 
demand that our city officials require that change in philosphy in police training, 
and the additional skills training to back it up.  Along with everything else, a 
better, more able cop is a less frightened, paranoid cop who needs his big gun as a 
security blanket.

Roxana Orrell
Central

> Message: 10
> From: "Garwood, Robin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 'Matthew Devany' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [Mpls] police bashing
> Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 15:33:05 -0600
>
> I agree with Matthew, Wizard, and Jordan on this one.
>
> One of the points I took away from Jordan's post was that a limited
> investigation of the individual police officers' behavior will most likely
> exonerate them, since they were ostensibly following police procedures.
> Therefore, an effective investigation must go deeper than the officers
> themselves.  Someone outside the MPD must examine their policies.  If these
> officers' behavior was indeed "by the book," we must thoroughly and
> dispassionately examine the book itself, with a readiness to discard those
> chapters that have proven they do not work.
>
> The question I ask myself is this: what should be the goal of policing, in
> situations like the one yesterday?  My answer to that question: the goal
> should be that no one--including individuals behaving in a dangerous or
> inexplicable manner--lose his or her life.
>
> I find it tragic that I cannot believe that the MPD currently share this
> goal.
>
> If we could convince the department that this is the goal to follow, I
> believe we could effect some extremely important positive change.
>
> Robin Garwood
> Seward
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 15:16:38 -0600
> From: "Chris L Beckwith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Mpls - Issues" 
> Subject: Re: [Mpls] police bashing
>
> > Mark Wilde wrote:
> >
> > >
> > The events which give rise to the notion that the police are trigger
> > happy is the procedures police are trained to follow when confronted
> > with a person who is waving a weapon or behaving in a way that is
> > inexplicable to them. The Chief says they followed procedure, that the
> > incident was "textbook." Therein lies the problem.
>
> Indeed. The textbook  sounds rather suspect. More importantly, we'd like to
> know where in the textbook it says 15 bullets are required to immobilize a
> street schizophrenic. Shall we look in the index, perhaps under "Overkill?"
>
> Wouldn't a single bullet to the leg have been sufficient?
>
> Chris Beck

Re: [Mpls] Homeless during the day

[Allysen Hoberg]

This is the first time that I have posted to this list, however I have been 
reading and following along for a few weeks.

I was alerted to the list by a fellow shelter worker who told me that there 
were some strange things being said about homeless people within our 
community. I know this is a late response, but I found myself thinking about 
it all weekend.

On Feb. 28 Barb Lickness wrote, "I just wish that all the people employed in 
the shelter care industry would make an attempt to build some of these 
homeless shelters in neighborhoods where they live instead of consistently 
empassioned pleas for why they should be concentrated in my neighborhood."

I have worked at St. Stephen's Shelter for over six years.  I have lived in 
Whittier or Phillips for almost all of those six years, as have many of my 
colleagues.  I recently purchased a home in Northeast Minneapolis because I 
could no longer afford to pay the high rents that go along with the Whitter 
neighborhood, however I highly wish I could have afforded a home within 
walking distance of 2211 Clinton Avenue South.  The homes down the block 
from St. Stephen's are selling for upwards of $250,000.00, a little out of 
the average shelter workers price range.

I would have liked to become more involved with neighborhood development and 
I have attended a few neighborhood meetings in Whittier, however it is 
difficult for me ethically to participate with a group who has so 
resoundingly voted "no" to Lydia House.  I feel as though the hundreds of 
guests that stay at St. Stephen's Shelter each year were being disregarded 
just because they don't pay rent or own land.

Lickness, who responded the loudest the the 'homeless during the day' 
question, also wrote, "I have not seen one post, one letter, one news 
article, or attended any meetings where this industry was attempting to 
build these shelters anywhere in the city other than Whittier or Phillips."

St. Stephen's Catholic Church, Simpson Methodist Church, and Love Power 
Church have been attempting to open a shelter on the West Bank for approx. 
two years.  There have been numerous public hearings and at least one 
article written in both the Star and Tribune and the City Pages about this 
endeavor.

In my new neighborhood there are many supportive housing units and half-way 
houses.  There is also a new supportive housing development under 
construction on Central Avenue. Furthermore, 'Hope Harbor,' which is the 
newest supportive housing complex to open is on the north side of downtown, 
near the 'Evergreen Residence,' still another supportive housing residence 
that is fairly new and not in Whittier or Phillips.

on March 1, Barb Lickness also wrote:  "Somewhere between the drunk and drug 
addict homeless and the working homeless there are the mentally ill 
homeless.  They too are forced to wanted the streets aimlessly."

She forgot to mention the homeless children.  Over 50% of homeless people in 
Minneapolis are children.  She also forgot to mention that 40% of the adult 
homeless people in Minnesota are employed, making an average of only $8.00 
per hour.  In order to afford a one-bedroom apartment in Whittier, they 
would need to be making around $12-14.00 per hour.

If anyone is interested in hearing firsthand what homeless people do all 
day, feel free to volunteer at a shelter.  Both Simpson and St. Stephen's 
Shelter are fully staffed overnight by a volunteer work force.

Peace,
Allysen Hoberg
Shelter Director, St. Stephen's Shelter











>From: loki anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: Mpls Issues List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: [Mpls] Homeless during the day
>Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:17:08 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>--- Barbara Lickness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > And meanwhile, the churches and ex-nursing homes in
> > most neighborhoods (38th St. and 4th Av.) remain
> > empty
> > at night because people don't want these shelters or
> > supportive housing facilities in their neighborhood.
> >
> > Hennepin County turned the Armory that could have
> > housed hundreds of people into a parking ramp. And
> > now, it looks like the City Council wants to
> > reconsider releasing the $4 million dollars from the
> > NRP Affordable Housing Fund.  Check out the minutes
> > from the Committee of the Whole meeting yesterday
> > and
> > call your council member. Go figure.
>
>A sad bit of irony to let your council members mull
>over: kitty corner from City Hall (the NW corner of
>4th St and 3rd Ave S) is a sidewalk heating grate that
>has served as a shelter substitute for a homeless
>fellow on the coldest nights this winter. He is
>usually still sleeping there when I catch my bus to
>work at 6 in the morning.
>
>   Loki Anderson
>   Marshall Terrace
>   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>=
>"In their styes with all their backing
>  They don't care what goes on around
>  In their eyes there's something lacking
>  What 

RE: [Mpls] police bashing

[Pamela Taylor]

Dear List Members,

I have a question that others may think strange, or
unfeeling, but it is not meant to be so, and I really
want to have an answer.  Others may have wanted to ask
the question but may have felt a little uneasy or
unpatriotic.  Since the country wants us to all rally
around the flag, I want some answers.  

Whenever an officer is killed, hundreds of officers
turn out and line the streets, etc., for the wake,
memorial and funeral.  There may be varying amounts of
TV and other media coverage. It is a national tragedy.
 

Why is there no major coverage, daylong or even
intermittent (with notice to the media), when one of
"our own" ordinary citizens is killed?  And if they
happen to report anything, it is most often "skewered"
and roasted until it is done to their liking?  (I am
not a big supporter of the Strib because they did some
crappy reporting on me, and when I asked them to
retract some quite erroneous statements, they simply
ignored me like I did not exist). 

I have always wondered who then was protecting the
rest of the citizens?  It is not still our tax dollars
paying their salaries?  What happens when some
innocent citizen gets shot and killed during this time
because not enough back-up was available?

Why when cops shoot and/or kill someone they get a
paid leave of absence?  Especially, if they are the
prime suspects under investigation?  I say that they
should simply be broke like the rest of the folks who
may suddenly be scorned by the masses and out of a
job.  If they are found innocent, then we can give
them back pay. Or, if these same officers are found
guilty, IMHO we should insert a clause in their paid
leave of absence pay that they have to pay it back
(restitution) just like crooks!
  
And, should there not be a fund set up out of that
same pot of OUR money that we are paying police
officers paid leave with, for citizens who lose time
and money from their jobs for being wrongly arrested
and/or fired, etc., from their jobs for acts relating
to police misconduct?

Now, I can be as sympathetic as the next person, and
deeply resent what the September 11th act of terrorism
did to my country and my fellow citizens, but I will
also be very honest.  As a taxpaying citizen, and
quite frankly, as an African-American,in my birthplace
(since my ancestors BUILT this country)I was already 
appalled at the lack of insensitivity of this country,
and its subsequent cities, in relation to its own
responsibility to the rights of its citizens.

Now I am nice, but I am not Minnesota Nice! 
Minorities AND the mentally ill are still treated like
crap!  Yes, America has made some strides forward, but
it also slid backwards in many ways.  We have our own
breed of terrorism that is plain ugly.  I look at all
this patriotism with one eyebrow raised, and still
sleep with one eye open.

This is land of the free and home of the brave.  Just
don't you dare try to cash in your red, white and blue
chips.  Liberty and the pursuit of happiness are not
guaranteed to everybody.

If someone has the answer to those questions, or some
plausible reasoning, I would love to hear it.  If the
Strib is lurking around this forum, good.  They got
the unedited version of my thoughts which never would
happen if they were to be reported by them.  

Pamela Taylor
(Formerly of Central Neighborhood, where the peaceful
and well-loved Abuka Sanders was unnecessarily slain
by the MPLS Police, sounding off from Tampa, FL)

--- "Garwood, Robin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I agree with Matthew, Wizard, and Jordan on this
> one.  
> 
> One of the points I took away from Jordan's post was
> that a limited
> investigation of the individual police officers'
> behavior will most likely
> exonerate them, since they were ostensibly following
> police procedures.
> Therefore, an effective investigation must go deeper
> than the officers
> themselves.  Someone outside the MPD must examine
> their policies.  If these
> officers' behavior was indeed "by the book," we must
> thoroughly and
> dispassionately examine the book itself, with a
> readiness to discard those
> chapters that have proven they do not work.
> 
>   
> Robin Garwood
> Seward
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[Mpls] Yesterday's incident

[Rybak, R.T.]

There has been a good deal of discussion about the value of the list lately,
but it's clear to me this is a time when it plays a very important role in
getting information out to the community. It can also play a very important
role in educating public officials about what the public is thinking.  So I
encourage people to continue to post on this topic, and, especially
important right now, seek out as many diverse opinions as possible.  List
members would be playing a very important role if they could solicit someone
who HAS NOT participated on the list and encourage them to post so we can
get some fresh perspective.  This way we can continue to show how a list
like this can bring new perspective to a community dialogue.

Here is a statement I put out after meeting this noon with Somali leaders:


Our city has suffered a terrible and tragic loss.  On behalf of all of
Minneapolis I want to express my very deep sorrow to the family of the
victim and to members of the Somali community.

The most important goal we can all have right now is to gather as much
information about the incident as possible, and to ensure that the community
has the confidence that the investigation will be independent. 

Toward that end, the Hennepin County Sheriff is conducting an independent
investigation. The public should report all information about this case
directly to the Sheriff at (612) 348-3755. I just met with over 40 members
of the Somali community to talk about the process and their concerns. We are
working with Somali community organizations to make sure information is
coming forward for the investigation

I want to reassure all people in Minneapolis that this city will continue to
be safe and respectful for every member of our community.

I am fully aware of the fact that many people in the community do not see
this as an isolated incident.  Issues of race and mental illness, and the
police, have been raised for some time and I want to make it clear I take
these questions seriously and will take the steps necessary to ensure that
all of the information comes forward and the investigation remains
independent. 

R.T. Rybak
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[Mpls] I would welcome Scott Dibble for MN Senate

[Denise Tolbert]

 For Myron Orfield's spot.  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
I, too, would welcome Catherine Shreves in the Minnesota Senate should redistricting allow her to run (if she wants) for Myron Orfield's spot. Surely Minneapolis Schools would feel the loss. Therefore, this situation is probably the best argument for cloning I have heard yet :)Jan Del CalzoLynnhurst___Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-DemocracyPost messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more:http://e-democracy.org/mplsDo You Yahoo!?
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Re: [Mpls] police bashing

[Conor Donnelly]

I agree with Robin, Chris, WiZard, etc...

I'd like to add if the police will not accept any responsibility for
this tragedy and if they are exonerated as Jordan says they'll be, then
the Chief has to go. The book they're following is unacceptable.
Somehow, accountability and confidence has to be restored, and right now
I have very little. I'm certain many others have even less.
Conor Donnelly
WaitePark

Robin Garwood wrote:
>If these officers' behavior was indeed "by the book," we must thoroughly and
>dispassionately examine the book itself, with a readiness to discard those
>chapters that have proven they do not work.

Chris L Beckwith wrote:
> Indeed. The textbook sounds rather suspect. 
> -clip-
> Wouldn't a single bullet to the leg have been sufficient?
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Re: [Mpls] police bashing

[Craig Cox]

on 3/11/02 3:33 PM, Garwood, Robin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
a limited
> investigation of the individual police officers' behavior will most likely
> exonerate them, since they were ostensibly following police procedures.
> Therefore, an effective investigation must go deeper than the officers
> themselves.  Someone outside the MPD must examine their policies.  If these
> officers' behavior was indeed "by the book," we must thoroughly and
> dispassionately examine the book itself, with a readiness to discard those
> chapters that have proven they do not work.



I challenge the mayor to make this investigation public. That's the only way
citizens will be satisfied that the process isn't rigged.
Craig Cox
Hiawatha 

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Re: [Mpls] police bashing

[Chris L Beckwith]

> Mark Wilde wrote:
>
> >
> The events which give rise to the notion that the police are trigger
> happy is the procedures police are trained to follow when confronted
> with a person who is waving a weapon or behaving in a way that is
> inexplicable to them. The Chief says they followed procedure, that the
> incident was "textbook." Therein lies the problem.


Indeed. The textbook  sounds rather suspect. More importantly, we'd like to
know where in the textbook it says 15 bullets are required to immobilize a
street schizophrenic. Shall we look in the index, perhaps under "Overkill?"

Wouldn't a single bullet to the leg have been sufficient?

Chris Beckwith
Ward 6

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RE: [Mpls] police bashing

[Garwood, Robin]

I agree with Matthew, Wizard, and Jordan on this one.  

One of the points I took away from Jordan's post was that a limited
investigation of the individual police officers' behavior will most likely
exonerate them, since they were ostensibly following police procedures.
Therefore, an effective investigation must go deeper than the officers
themselves.  Someone outside the MPD must examine their policies.  If these
officers' behavior was indeed "by the book," we must thoroughly and
dispassionately examine the book itself, with a readiness to discard those
chapters that have proven they do not work.

The question I ask myself is this: what should be the goal of policing, in
situations like the one yesterday?  My answer to that question: the goal
should be that no one--including individuals behaving in a dangerous or
inexplicable manner--lose his or her life.  

I find it tragic that I cannot believe that the MPD currently share this
goal.

If we could convince the department that this is the goal to follow, I
believe we could effect some extremely important positive change.


Robin Garwood
Seward
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RE: [Mpls] police bashing

[Matthew Devany]

Mark Wilde wrote:

>He [Jordan Kushner] cites "numerous" shooting by police in the last few
>years, and I would remind him, and everyone else who's
>first reaction to this story is anger at the police,
>that police work is dirty and dangerous.

from an article by Tim Wise posted on Alternet:
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12166

"According to the Department of Labor, the on-the-job fatality
rate for police is lower than that for gardeners, electricians, truck
drivers, garbage collectors, construction workers, airline pilots, timber
cutters, and commercial fisherman. In fact, fishermen have an occupational
fatality rate that is fifteen times higher than that for cops, but rarely do
we hear those who provide us with an endless supply of mahi-mahi described
as heroes."

Q: How many murders makes "numerous" (when other methods exist for safely
subduing suspects)? A: >1

I would be interested to know how many Minneapolis police officers have died
in the line of duty during the period that they have killed four mentally
ill citizens.

>From the same article:
Nationally, "an average of 66 police officers per year were killed
feloniously during the 1990s, with the number falling to only 42 in 1999."
and even lower in 2000: 35

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cfoi.t03.htm

A dirty and dangerous job? Perhaps. But more police officers are killed when
struck by vehicles during traffic stops than by gunfire or knifeplay. And
isn't gardening, with an equivalent number of job-related deaths, also dirty
and dangerous? Or garbage handling?

Again Mark Wilde:
>If I am confronted by a man walking down the street
>with a machete, I want the police to use the force
>they deem necessary to protect me, and not have to
>hesitate worrying about knee-jerk public reaction if
>they pull the trigger.

There is no disagreement among the accounts of the incident, published and
otherwise, that I've read: the man was menacing/confronting no one.

>From the Strib article:
"Dendell Holley, who was among several people waiting for buses in the area,
said the man was holding the machete down as he walked and was not
threatening pedestrians."

The eyewitness accounts I've read directly contradict the portrayal of the
event by Chief Olson.

I want the police to hesitate before they use lethal force to protect me, or
themselves. I do not feel safe with other people walking the streets ready
to blast away with guns. Trained or not, police are people. And people make
mistakes. When the police fire in panic, fear or anger on a crowded
Minneapolis street it's a miracle innocent people aren't injured.

It's time the police reconsidered the shoot to kill policy.

I would define "trigger happy" as murdering a person when no one has been
assaulted or threatened. My opinion doesn't matter though. And I wonder
whose opinion does matter to the MPD, even an independent investigative
body. They haven't responded to numerous trials that have found them
culpable for brutality by changing their behavior.

There is no justification for the lethal force that was used on this man.

Matthew Devany
Powderhorn


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Re: [Mpls] police bashing

[WizardMarks]

Mark Wilde wrote:

>And I would hope the investigator would also not have
>the same bias as Mr. Kushner to assume the mpls police
>are trigger happy, especially before all the facts are
>in on this case, and not just based on one newspaper
>article.
>
The events which give rise to the notion that the police are trigger 
happy is the procedures police are trained to follow when confronted 
with a person who is waving a weapon or behaving in a way that is 
inexplicable to them. The Chief says they followed procedure, that the 
incident was "textbook." Therein lies the problem. Their tasers didn't 
phase the victim. Their commands didn't penetrate. Mentally ill persons, 
even if they are following their medication schedule to the letter, take 
meds that cease to be effective after some length of time. They need to 
have a different medication(s) at that point. Unfortunately, when that 
happens, mentally ill people are sometimes the last to understand what 
needs to happen. The tools they are given are woefully unequal to the task.
Does anyone on this list know what other tools could work in this situation?
Wizard Marks, Central

>
>
>He cites "numerous" shooting by police in the last few
>years, and I would remind him, and everyone else who's
>first reaction to this story is anger at the police, 
>that police work is dirty and dangerous.  
>
>If I am confronted by a man walking down the street
>with a machete, I want the police to use the force
>they deem necessary to protect me, and not have to
>hesitate worrying about knee jerk public reaction if
>they pull the trigger.
>
>mark wilde
>windom park
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Mpls] Strib: Is Mpls-Issues too powerful?

[Steven Clift]

To catch up on this thread for those not on the Mpls list, please see:
http://www.mail-archive.com/mpls@mnforum.org/




At some point last year in my e-democracy presentations around the world I
stopped suggesting that the Minneapolis Issues Forum was only a complement
to others forms of public participation like letter to the editor
sections, talk radio and public meetings.

My sense was that this forum was becoming one of the primary places for
local public agenda-setting and not just a complement.  As a
representative of the host organization, Minnesota E-Democracy, this
presents the next challenge that must be met.  We must build effective
outreach activities that increase the diversity of voices
in our forums - both geographically across the city as well as the
many socio-economic and ethnic groups that make our city so vibrant.

Why, for example, do we not hear directly from the large Somali or Latino
populations on this forum?  They would have the most to gain by raising
their voice and sharing local news from their communities. I don't think
that access to the Internet from a technical perspective is as big a
challenge as cultural and relevancy barriers. People who are new to this
forum might feel lost with all the insider talk and decide that it not
worth their time to participate?

What are we going to do about this?

For the last year E-Democracy has been gathering ideas for a New Voices
Outreach Campaign.  This will be an in-person outreach effort at civic and
cultural events around Minneapolis and St. Paul
 as well as an e-mail list development
training program for non-profits and neighborhood groups.  We actually
have two students at the U working on a small grant proposal ($5 - 10K) as
part of their grant writing class.

If you'd like to help review the grant proposal, have ideas for funding
sources, or would like to join a volunteer outreach team (we want to hire
a coordinator and pay table costs at events with the grant money), drop
E-Democracy and e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.

Also, for those journalists who do mention this list, please follow our
organizational policy that the URL must be presented with any mention in
print .  This would go a long way in making
this forum accessible to others and not some mystery list to which
reporters and those in the know have access.

Thanks,
Steven Clift
Board Chair, Minnesota E-Democracy

P.S. I talked about the Mpls forum at the SXSW conference yesterday
 and had a number people come up to me
with an interest in starting similar forums in their community.  As you
may have picked up, I get around - there is no local forum on the Internet
any where in world with as much influence on local public affairs as this
list period. In late April we will actually have a television crew from
NHK in Japan coming to town to shoot video and do interviews about
E-Democracy including the Mpls forum.  Time for another E-Democracy happy
hour that week! Stay tuned.

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[Mpls] Re: The Challenges of Youth Sports/Park Board Money

[deanc]

This really is an excellent and timely post.

This coming Spring we are putting our son (who soon will be 7) into a 
baseball league in Richfield.  Our son is really a baseball fanatic and 
loves to play, but the experiences we've had at the Mpls Parks the past two 
summers have been less than ideal (even if it was only for 5 and 6 year old 
T-ball leagues).  Couple that with the stories we've heard about City 
facilities, it wasn't as hard decision as I thought it would be. 

Now I don't expect my son to be the next Joe Mauer, but being the pushy 21st 
Century parent that I am, I also want to provide my kids with the best 
experience I can, as long as I can afford it.  Fortunately Richfield 
provides this to us and its not that far away from my home.  Furthermore, 
there are a lot of other kids from SW Mpls who are in the league as well. 

When I see a committment to quality youth recreational facilities in the 
City, we'll probably be back, but until then it's off to Richfield. 

Dean E. Carlson
East Harriet, Ward 10
(Where Lyndale Farmstead Park provides a home run fence in right field, it's 
just the PB's southside maintenance shops -- good luck getting the ball 
back!!) 


[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 

> Greetings to all my fellow neighbors! 
> 
> This is my first post and I am so glad I found the forum! 
> 
> I would like to speak on a number of issues regarding youth, education, and sports. 
> 
> I have read the threads over the past few months regarding the Park Board wanting to 
>study, based on the idea of the Mayor, the creation of more trails and facilities for 
>skiing, snowboarding, skateboarding, etc. 
> 
> I believe that we, the city, should be sensitive to the needs of our youth and 
>adults to provide adaquate facilities to excercise and to just have fun! 
> 
> What I find strange is how we seem to have an X-game mentality to our thinking.   
> 
> I would challenge anyone to find, in the city of Minneaoplis a baseball field for 
>younger kids (60-75 foot bases) that has a grass infield, dugouts, a mound, 
>homeplates that are straight, AND fences to hit home runs over. 
> 
> I do know that there is a wonderful complex of fields for both baseball, softball, 
>soccer, and football that are being completed on the Fort Snelling site.  I am very, 
>very happy to see that!  However, the Fort Snelling site is no better than a Parade 
>Stadium - in other words, not enough. 
> 
> If we are going to be putting forth the effort to create alternative/silent sport 
>facilities could we also start to create other venues for our kids that will make 
>them feel proud to play in the city?  
> 
> My sons play for one of the only travelling baseball leagues in Minneapolis.  We 
>have our share of home games.  The teams that come in from the suburbs hate to play 
>on our fields - no mounds, outfields that have more dirt, rocks and weeds than grass. 
> We are not even allowed to drag a field if it has rained because of Park Board 
>rules. 
> 
> Our kids are just as good as any kid from the burbs.  Do they not deserve the best 
>from us? 
> 
> If we are going to build beautiful new facilities for the silent sports and not 
>address all the venues then lets just let them skateboard on the sidewalks and make a 
>few wooden ramps. 
> 
> Rick Kuhlmann
> Hale-Page-Diamond Lake
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[Mpls] Youth Recreation in Minneapolis

[Becky Boland]

 Rick--The Minneapolis Youth Coordinating Board, which is a board made up of several different elected bodies in the city of Minneapolis (ie Park Board, Hennepin County, City Council, the Mayor, Library Board, the School Board, etc), has made Youth Recreation one of its goals for the 2002 year.  Mac Boston has been working in a recommendation on how to offer more options for youth in the city, including, as you mentioned, traveling teams.  He just came out with his recomendation last week, and I would encourage you to contact him regarding your opinions and ideas.  
The number of the Youth Coordinating Board is 673-2060.
Thanks, and feel free to let me know if you need anything further.
Becky Boland, Lyndale
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
Greetings to all my fellow neighbors!This is my first post and I am so glad I found the forum!I would like to speak on a number of issues regarding youth, education, and sports.I have read the threads over the past few months regarding the Park Board wanting to study, based on the idea of the Mayor, the creation of more trails and facilities for skiing, snowboarding, skateboarding, etc.I believe that we, the city, should be sensitive to the needs of our youth and adults to provide adaquate facilities to excercise and to just have fun!What I find strange is how we seem to have an X-game mentality to our thinking. I would challenge anyone to find, in the city of Minneaoplis a baseball field for younger kids (60-75 foot bases) that has a grass infield, dugouts, a mound, homeplates that are straight, AND fences to hit home runs over.I do know that there is a wonderful complex of fields for both baseball, softball, soccer, and football that are being completed on the Fort Snelling site. I am very, very happy to see that! However, the Fort Snelling site is no better than a Parade Stadium - in other words, not enough.If we are going to be putting forth the effort to create alternative/silent sport facilities could we also start to create other venues for our kids that will make them feel proud to play in the city? My sons play for one of the only travelling baseball leagues in Minneapolis. We have our share of home games. The teams that come in from the suburbs hate to play on our fields - no mounds, outfields that have more dirt, rocks and weeds than grass. We are not even allowed to drag a field if it has rained because of Park Board rules.Our kids are just as good as any kid from the burbs. Do they not deserve the best from us?If we are going to build beautiful new facilities for the silent sports and not address all the venues then lets just let them skateboard on the sidewalks and make a few wooden ramps.Rick KuhlmannHale-Page-Diamond Lake___Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-DemocracyPost messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more:http://e-democracy.org/mplsBe good to yourself. If you don't take care of your body, where will you live?  -Kobi Yamada   
 
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[Mpls] The Challenges of Youth Sports/Park Board Money

[formman]

Greetings to all my fellow neighbors!

This is my first post and I am so glad I found the forum!

I would like to speak on a number of issues regarding youth, education, and sports.

I have read the threads over the past few months regarding the Park Board wanting to 
study, based on the idea of the Mayor, the creation of more trails and facilities for 
skiing, snowboarding, skateboarding, etc.

I believe that we, the city, should be sensitive to the needs of our youth and adults 
to provide adaquate facilities to excercise and to just have fun!

What I find strange is how we seem to have an X-game mentality to our thinking.  

I would challenge anyone to find, in the city of Minneaoplis a baseball field for 
younger kids (60-75 foot bases) that has a grass infield, dugouts, a mound, homeplates 
that are straight, AND fences to hit home runs over.

I do know that there is a wonderful complex of fields for both baseball, softball, 
soccer, and football that are being completed on the Fort Snelling site.  I am very, 
very happy to see that!  However, the Fort Snelling site is no better than a Parade 
Stadium - in other words, not enough.

If we are going to be putting forth the effort to create alternative/silent sport 
facilities could we also start to create other venues for our kids that will make them 
feel proud to play in the city? 

My sons play for one of the only travelling baseball leagues in Minneapolis.  We have 
our share of home games.  The teams that come in from the suburbs hate to play on our 
fields - no mounds, outfields that have more dirt, rocks and weeds than grass.  We are 
not even allowed to drag a field if it has rained because of Park Board rules.

Our kids are just as good as any kid from the burbs.  Do they not deserve the best 
from us?

If we are going to build beautiful new facilities for the silent sports and not 
address all the venues then lets just let them skateboard on the sidewalks and make a 
few wooden ramps.

Rick Kuhlmann
Hale-Page-Diamond Lake
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[Mpls] Qwest cuts back on Zipcodes

[Alan Shilepsky]

I just discovered that the yellow pages--US DEX--no longer has any
Minneapolis Zip Code information.  It used to be that you could look up
any street number in the city and get the 5 digit zip code.  Or you
could interpolate the zip from a zip code map.

The new yellow pages only give the zip codes of Minnesota cities
entirely contained in a single zip code.  There is nothing, nada, about
Minneapolis.  I would have settled for just the map.

If you go to the white pages you can get the zip codes of individual
businesses, but the personal listings have no zip code information.

Feeling very inconvenienced, and wondering if Qwest it trying to help
FedEx or DHL or something,

Alan Shilepsky
Downtown  (55401)
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Re: [Mpls] The power of the list

[Chris L Beckwith]

- Original Message -
From: "Barbara Lickness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 12:07 PM
Subject: [Mpls] The power of the list


> I think the thing that I find most appealing about
> this list is that the "opinions" go to this list
> un-edited and un-filtered.
>
> The strib has significant filters at work in what gets
> printed and the story that gets told is from that of
> the reporter or editors point of view


I would go further than saying the news is filtered. It's also lacking in
basic analysis. This morning, for example, I read an article in the Strib's
Metro section happily announcing an increase in the number of drug busts in
the Minneapolis area over the last three months. Yet the police, as well as
the reporter, seemed to be at a loss to explain why this sudden run of
unanticipated good luck in apprehending dealers and their significant
stockpiles of cash, weapons, and drugs. Is the Strib, as well as the police,
so utterly lacking in even a rudimentary sense of economics to recognize an
obvious correlation between an economic recession and an increase in drug
crime?  In fact, wouldn't they anticipate an increase flow in drug
trafficking?  Certainly this is going to result in addiitonal drug busts.
But why this lack of economic realism in crime reportage?

More troubling, of course, is the bigger story this hints at. The reporter
fails to make mention of whether there is a trend in increased drug flows
and bigger busts in urban centers across the country. If so, that means more
drugs are coming into the country. Would this not indicate breaks in our
national security system? Any route for drugs is a route for terrorists. But
again, there is no speculation about where these drugs are coming from.  All
we get is a final tally of pounds, kilos, dollars, and guns. Factoids.

Chris Beckwith
Ward 6










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Re: [Mpls] A Middler's View on Ice Cream

[KarenCollier]

In a message dated 3/11/02 11:32:42 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


I formally announce the support of the Moderate Mushy Middlers of Minneapolis for this proposal.
 


Sign me up!  Do we get to have our own caucus?

Karen Collier
Linden Hills

Re: [Mpls] Strib: Is Mpls-Issues too powerful?

[ken bradley]

CM Johnson does read the list and has spoken to me about my postings in the past? I will always advocate for increasing the power of democracy and our freedom of speech. Thank you to all the issue members that participate on the list. 
Ken Bradley Corcoran 
  Bob Velez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
I would be remiss if I didn't chime in about the issue being that I residein CM Johnson's 4th Ward and am an active participant on 'THE LIST'.While the majority of topics do seem to address other parts of Minneapolisrather than my own, I certainly do not feel that 'THE LIST' is elitist orexclusive.I have to wonder why my Ward does not apparently have any outstandingissues that make it to 'THE LIST'. Could I be shirking my Northsiderresponsibility to broadcast my ward's issues? I will take responsibilityfor that portion since, as David figures, I am the sole Shingle Creekresident who currently posts to 'THE LIST'.I, too, wish that CM Johnson would participate in 'THE LIST' and seek inputfrom the many great thinkers who have distinguished themselves vis a visthis forum and embrace the technology.CM Johnson, what say you? I am willing to forward your reply to 'THE LIST'.Bob VelezShingle CreekWard 4-1___Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-DemocracyPost messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more:http://e-democracy.org/mplsDo You Yahoo!?
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Re: [Mpls] Where in the world are Mpls-Issues posters?

[Michael Atherton]

List Manager wrote:

> To compile data, I chose, arbitrarily, the first 10 days of Jan., Feb.
> and March 2000...742 posts in all! I counted posts, not individuals, but
> that's because it reflects the actual conversation.

Counting posts, and not individuals, only supports Mr. Grow's argument;
if it is indeed true that a select number of individuals make the majority
of posts, then in some sense the list is elitist.  It is the diversity
(I have to cringe when I use this word) of opinion that would make the list
representative of the views of Minneapolis residents.

Mr. Grow's column is itself inherently contradictory because the claim
that the list is too powerful encourages additional participation (which might
have been his intent). I would like to see Mr. Grow put his thoughts on
the line through his own personal participation and step out from behind
his shield of one-way news print. Or would it cheapen his words to
make them available for free?

Michael Atherton
Prospect Park

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Re: [Mpls] Re: Is Mpls-Issues too powerful?/Waiting to Exhale!

[David Wilson]

Here is something that Barb Johnson may find of value with this listserv.

Last year there was a bomb scare or a teen violence scare at South
Highschool.  I learned about it "in real time" on this listserv.  The
poster listed pertinent information such as telephone numbers and where to
go looking for your kids at off-site assembly places.  It scooped the
local radio and tv stations.  It gave information that was important to
parents on what to do and to reassure them.

Barb Johnson-- In New York on September 11th.  similar listservs were
hooking up a terrified and hysterical population and helping people to
exchange information when the "regular" channels like the telephone were
jammed or down.  Having a vibrant political affairs discussion group
working in Minneapolis has the unintended affect of providing an
alternative communication channel if needed.

I really appreciated the South High information during that scare.

David Wilson
Loring Park




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[Mpls] Why investigate when you already know?

[Dan Cosley]

From: Jordan Kushner 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

..[snip]..
> In order to really "do something" about the trigger happy culture in the
> Minneapolis police department, we need an expert and in-depth investigation
> by investigators who really have no connection to the department.
..[snip]..

Since you've already determined that the department has a "trigger happy
culture", why do we need the investigation?

-- Dan

-- 
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GroupLens Research Lab, Univ of MN  (http://movielens.umn.edu/ * 612.624.8372)
*** When the barber asks a question, DON'T nod your head ***

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[Mpls] police bashing

[Mark Wilde]

Jordan Kushner wrote: "In order to really "do
something" about the trigger happy culture in the
Minneapolis police department, we need an expert and
in-depth  investigation by investigators who really
have no connection to the department."

And I would hope the investigator would also not have
the same bias as Mr. Kushner to assume the mpls police
are trigger happy, especially before all the facts are
in on this case, and not just based on one newspaper
article.

He cites "numerous" shooting by police in the last few
years, and I would remind him, and everyone else who's
first reaction to this story is anger at the police, 
that police work is dirty and dangerous.  

If I am confronted by a man walking down the street
with a machete, I want the police to use the force
they deem necessary to protect me, and not have to
hesitate worrying about knee-jerk public reaction if
they pull the trigger.

mark wilde
windom park




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Re: [Mpls] Audrey Johnson is running for re-election to the Board of Education

[Audrey Johnson]

>From Pam Taylor:
> Could you please post your platform that you ran on 2
> years ago to the list?  And, then if you would, please
> tell us what inroads you made in regards to it?

I am happy to answer but apologize for the length. AJ

When I ran in 1999 for the school board, my platform consisted of three main
points,
improved communications, customer service and parental involvement with an
end result of education for all children

Communication is the key to understanding and working with and for any
person or group of people.  In my term I have written a community article
every month that appears in several community newspapers.  The focus of
these articles is to demystify the work of the board, to give a glimpse of
the types of decisions the Board makes and how we arrive at those decisions.
I write them, not so much as an individual but from the viewpoint of the
entire Board.

The topics have ranged from budget and monetary dilemmas and decisions to
Federal and state legislation, Board operation and conduct, to other
community, state and national assignments Board members fill such as the
Minnesota School Boards Association (MSBA), West Metro Education
Program(WMEP), the Hennepin County Alliance for Children and Families, Youth
Coordinating Board (YCB), Council of Great City Schools (CGCS), etc..  I
have also written about exceptional volunteers, exceptional students, the
importance of a strong superintendent, the importance of arts programs, pop
and advertising in the schoolsIt's over 24 articles in the last 2 years.
I have heard very positive feed back from many people in that it has given
them much better comprehension and insight as to what Board members do and
the type of decisions we make.

We have also, in the last year and a little bit,  held several public forums
and public policy sessions out in the communities at high schools and at one
elementary school.  Estimates of the number of people who have attended
would be upwards of three thousand people.  At these forums, after a short
presentation to introduce the topic, we hear from the community.  In Jan. we
held 2 forums on the budget, over 800 people attended and we heard from over
170 people.  We are very grateful to the people who attend and share their
thoughts and concerns with us.  We have taken those concerns and all of
those received through other avenues of communication to the discussion
table and considered them in our deliberations.

This has increased the numbers of parents who have indicted they feel they
are a part of the solution, because they are.  One of the topics was on site
councils,  we realize that consistency is lacking.  Some schools have great
site councils, some have none at all.  We are working to refine our policies
so that we can better meet the needs of our students, while being mindful of
the many state mandates that must be followed through at each site that
councils haven't always adhered to.  Our area parent councils are meeting
regularly.  We receive the minutes and input through these organizations.
Board members attend occasionally as well.

Our Citizen Budget Advisory Committee has been very active and has made
thoughtful and useful suggestions to the Board especially in light of budget
crisis we are facing now.  We have also been regularly updated by students
on the Citywide Student government and the Middle school Government.  We
have actively sought their input on decisions and they have student liaisons
who regularly attend board meetings.  We had discussed the idea of an
ex-officio student member to the Board, but they decided the time commitment
was way too much for students working hard on their numerous high school
requirements.

We have set up a web page and included sections for comments and input.  We
mailed out several thousand budget surveys to residents and sent home
thousands to families to get input on the difficult decisions about the
budget.  We had an online survey, we received over 3,300 responses, several
dozen phone calls, letters and many, many e-mails.  Three of our members
regularly communicate through this list.  Catherine Shreves, Dennis Schapiro
and I have been contributors when questions arise, we answer.  There is
still room for improvement, but we are definitely moving in the right
direction.

I would also point to the successful referendum of 2000, where we enlisted
huge grassroots support of the community, without whom we could never have
passed the referendum.  Communication was a key element in the successful
outcome of that campaign.

We have worked hard to raise the understanding of the community about
education finance and how the decisions made in St. Paul and Wash. DC affect
the children in Minneapolis.
Throughout the whole budget process, people whose children's schools are
facing unprecedented monetary cuts, have been very concerned but have
remained civil in an increasingly difficult time.  So many of the decisions
of school boards in this state are rea

Re: [Mpls] Strib: Is Mpls-Issues too powerful?

[Bob Velez]

I would be remiss if I didn't chime in about the issue being that I reside
in CM Johnson's 4th Ward and am an active participant on 'THE LIST'.

While the majority of topics do seem to address other parts of Minneapolis
rather than my own, I certainly do not feel that 'THE LIST' is elitist or
exclusive.

I have to wonder why my Ward does not apparently have any outstanding
issues that make it to 'THE LIST'.  Could I be shirking my Northsider
responsibility to broadcast my ward's issues?  I will take responsibility
for that portion since, as David figures, I am the sole Shingle Creek
resident who currently posts to 'THE LIST'.

I, too, wish that CM Johnson would participate in 'THE LIST' and seek input
from the many great thinkers who have distinguished themselves vis a vis
this forum and embrace the technology.

CM Johnson, what say you?  I am willing to forward your reply to 'THE LIST'.


Bob Velez
Shingle Creek
Ward 4-1



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[Mpls] The power of the list

[Barbara Lickness]

I think the thing that I find most appealing about
this list is that the "opinions" go to this list
un-edited and un-filtered. 

The strib has significant filters at work in what gets
printed and the story that gets told is from that of
the reporter or editors point of view.  I have often
times read accounts of stories that I felt were
reported with a particular "spin" to them and didn't
mirror my recollection of the event. This is
especially true with television news media. As a
neighborhood activist, I have long been sensitive to
the "spin" stories get in the traditional press
regarding many issues facing inner-city neighborhoods.
I think this list has served an important function in
providing a forum for "the other side of the story" on
many issues. 

The real power of this list in my estimation is that
it serves an important function in providing a forum
for "the other side of the story" on many issues. You
to see the diversity of many people's accounts of a
story or opinions on the story, not just one writers
or reporters.  I remember the first time I felt like
this list was "history in the making".  During the
ISAG conference this list received eye witness reports
before the stuff was even on the news.  I don't ever
remember getting news so quickly before.  That has
happened with a number of issues where someone on the
list has alerted us to the story before it hit the
newspaper or TV. 

I also like the idea of being alerted to stories from
other papers, magazines,etc. by list members. It makes
it easy for me to get information without having to
read 6 different newspapers. 

The idea of being able to give opinions and feedback
to issues being visited by our various levels of
government is highly appealing. The fact that many
elected officials participate or at least "lurk" is
even more appealing and quite frankly makes me look at
them more favorably.  Without this list, there are
issues many of us would have never know about, let
alone get to give an opinion about. 

I hope everyone on this list will tell their friends
and associates about the value of this list and
encourage them to join, North, South, East or West. I
would like to see the list double or triple in size. 

It's the information age at it's finest.

Barb Lickness
Whittier

=
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the 
world.  Indeed,
it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead

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[Mpls] Re: Online access

[Rachel N Lewis]

Fredric Markus writes:
"What's yet to be explored is the potential for routine public access
beyond the thousands of home computers - Internet kiosks like those
already in place at the University of Minnesota - and a wide
understanding in our population that this information vehicle can be as normal
and as accepted in our lifestyles..."

...as a public telephone is?  Seems to me there is a huge untapped potential
here.

A friend of mine spent time in Honduras and down there everybody expects to go
to some public place like a coffe shop to use a computer. I spent time in
Europe, and there all the youth hostels offer purchase of internet time on
computers in addition to offering telephones. There's a huge potential here.
I'm not in the entreprenurial market right now but I'd love to see this idea
blossom in MNPLS like it is around the rest of the world.

Rachel Lewis
Longfellow


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[Mpls] A Middler's View on Ice Cream

[Bob GUSTAFSON]

There seems to be several issues being intertwined into this DQ discussion.   First of all is the Park Board versus DQ management of concessions. That was the first issue discussed on the list, with arguments presented from both sides. It is at its most basic, a business management issue. It quickly became entangled however with a quality of life issue, mixed with some anti-big business issues and apparently some health food issues. For some it appears a Buster Bar wrapper on the shores of Lake Harriet would be right up their with an oil rig in ANWAR, or ANWATIN or whatever that place is up north with the wild animals and oil.    I recall the lists discussion to be slanted somewhat towards approving the management change, but tilting somewhat against the DQ choice. I certainly didn't read any consensus into this issue, which is interesting when considering that CM Johnson attacks the list because it does not represent the views of most Minneapolitans. Is she implying the list represents only one view? Did she read the discussion? Has she ever followed this list or is there another list I am unaware of where only one view is presented? I certainly don't follow this list because it is monotheistic. Heck, can you name any other place where you can actually read the viewpoint of a Republican that still lives in Minneapolis and signs their name to their posts?   The second issue seems to be a SW Minneapolis versus the rest of the city issue. Dave answers the charge of the list being a SW sounding board with some data on usage which seems to show a more widespread use of the list then implied. I've never felt the list was presented as a way to represent the views of all Minneapolitans. It most certainly is however the quickest way to get an idea in front of as many activist elitists that I know. If CM Johnson wants to get some non-activist dullards from NE to join the list so be it. Will that make us a democracy or something?    A larger issue for me is the reverse snobbery which lashes out in CM Johnson's claim that the list is a bunch of SW Mpls activists and elitists. Excuse me for living here, but I do. And I have for a long time. Yes I live in SW Minneapolis, I graduated from SW High School, I used to have a sailboat on Lake Harriet, I met my wife at SW High, and have wonderful memories that involve sailboats, Lake Harriet band concerts and even the concessions stand (we disagree on whether the vanilla or strawberry taffy was the best, but have remained married regardless for 30 years this fall).    I find it interesting that some feel that due to where I live I am an elitist. It also seems implied that those of us living in SW should not have been allowed such a significant voice in this debate as CM Barb Johnson states. I'm sorry for speaking up, but it would seem to be that if an issue is being discussed on Broadway, that people near Broadway should be expected to have more thoughts and knowledge on the issue then people living by Minnehaha Falls. In like manner an issue affecting SW Minneapolis should have more folks writing from SW Minneapolis. I think that is one of the beauties of this list. Where else can I get some activist elitist to share their thoughts and educate me about what is happening in their neighborhood?    I think that after reviewing these other issues, and reading Dave's and others defense of the list, the above are really non-issues. False fronts so to speak. The real issue here was presented by Keith. He lets the secret out of the bag when he tells us that the problem behind this deep seated frustration with SW is that we have ice cream and the rest of the city doesn't.    There. It's out in the open.   To all Minneapolitans who are ice cream deprived, let me offer my apologies, and hopefully a resolution to this deep divide within our city.   I have a proposal which I believe can settle all of out differences and truly unite the city as we enter this new century. Speaking for the rest of SW's elitists I propose we dig up Columbia golf course on the north east side, turn it into a lake, and build a concession stand. You can have DQ or if there is still some bitterness about the profitability of the venture I think it only fair that you have whatever ice cream the Park Board has been selling and we agree to subsidize it as currently done. I think it only fair that you also be allowed a bandstand. Ice cream is good, but enjoying it while listening to some beautiful music is what makes it such a wonderful treat. We are also willing, in order to allow you to fully enjoy the experience, just as we have in SW Minneapolis lo these many years, to move the airport up to your part of town. It's only appropriate that Northwest send a jumbo jet over the band concert every few minutes to truly remind you that you are experiencing an outdoor, urban concert.   Hopefully this proposal, coming from the activist elitist SW portion of the city will elicit the normal massive outpouring of support that

[Mpls] Need for Independent of Investigation of Police Shooting

[Jordan Kushner]

I attended the press conference and vigil at Franklin and Chicago Avenues
this morning for the Somali man whom Minneapolis police shot and killed
yesterday.  The very diverse turnout of about 100 people was impressive.  RT
showed up early and talked to all of the reporters.  He gets credit for
being at the scene in the community - which would be unimaginable with at
least the past two mayors.  His commitment to concrete meaningful action,
however, is the more importantant and difficult test.  RT's talk was limited
to getting the information and listening to the community's concerns.  The
irony of just having eliminated the Civilian Review Authority and cutting
the budget for any independent oversight by more than 50% illustrates the
contradiction between talk and commitment.

As far as concrete and meaningful action goes, I do have a concrete
suggestion:

hire an independent investigator to gather the facts about this killing, as
well as evaluating the policies and practices connected to this and the
numerous other shootings by the Minneapolis police department in the past
couple of years.

As of now, the case is referred to the Hennepin County Sheriff investigator,
the regular practice in these cases.  The problem is that the Hennepin
County Sheriff investigators will only focus on the specific incident,
almost definitely exonerate the officers involved, and will not look at
underlying policies and practices.   The Hennepin County Sheriff is separate
from the police deparment only in the most technical sense, but in reality
works hand-in-hand with the police department on a daily basis.  Its
"investigations" of these incidents are superficial and focused on
corroborating the police officer's accounts.

In order to really "do something" about the trigger happy culture in the
Minneapolis police department, we need an expert and in-depth investigation
by investigators who really have no connection to the department.   Although
RT mentioned at the press conference his usual emphasis on not spending more
money because we are in a recession, the city recently spend $150 to examine
the circumstances behind an elected offiicial taking a bribe.  It is
certainly more important to spend money necessary to find out answers why
the police are killing people.  The type of investigation conducted will be
a real indicator about whether the city officials really care to find out
why.

Jordan Kushner
Powderhorn

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Re: [Mpls] Today's shooting

[Gregory Luce]

I attended the press conference/rally this morning at the Chicago Crossings
mini-shopping center. I'd say about 50 to 100 people were milling about,
many of them media.  Omar Jamal from the Somali Justice Advocacy Center spoke
to the media, and Mayor Rybak also appeared and spoke.  Others from various
communities, including City, Inc., were there and spoke out about the prior
shooting of Alfred Sanders in the Central neighborhood.

Since December 1999, four mentally ill folks have been killed by the police:
 Rocco Dandrea, Barb Schneider, Alred Sanders, and now Abu Jeimani.  I happened
to meet with two people in the community later in the morning, both of whom
are struggling with mental illness and both of whom expressed fear and utter
confusion about the shootings.  It's a very sad day-- and one of anger as
well.  Almost uniformly everyone has asked the question:  why do we have
a shoot to kill policy?

Gregory Luce
North Phillips (work)



Dean Zimmermann wrote:
005001c1c8b6$aeb38c10$fefa1941@daisy">
  What I think I know:At about 2:00pm police responded to a Somali man, walking down Franklin Ave,near Chicago. He was carrying a machete and a crowbar and did not respond topolice attempts to get him to put down the machete and crowbar.  Police useda tazer (a kind of an electric stun gun) in an attempt to immobilize him,but multiple attempts failed to subdue him. He was shot multiple times bythe police; the actual number of shots is unknown to me at this time.The incident is being investigated by the Hennepin County Sheriff's Dept.I will be meeting with the mayor and others tomorrow morning.I will be at the press conference at 9:00am tomorrow.I have asked staff to help me get an agenda item on the Public Safety andRegulatory Services Committee's next meeting regarding police firearms'discharge policy.I just read the S'trib article by reporters Estrada & Kumar and it seems tobe a
ccurate according to all I know.Dean ZimmermannMpls City Council Member -  Ward 6612-673-2206- Original Message -From: "R.T.Rybak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: "Eva Young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 9:55 PMSubject: [Mpls] Today's shooting
  
I have been briefed by the police today and have set up a meeting withrepresentatives of the Somali community in the Mayor's office tomorrow

noon.

  If anyone has information about this that they feel I should have pleaseemail it to me at [EMAIL PROTECTED]___Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-DemocracyPost messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more:http://e-democracy.org/mpls
  
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[Mpls] FW: Need for Independent Investigation of Police Killing

[List Manager]

Title: FW: Need for Independent Investigation of Police Killing



Forwarded on behalf of list member Jordan Kushner. -- David Brauer, list manager

- Original Message - 
From: Jordan Kushner   
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 10:32 AM
Subject: Need for Independent Investigation of Police Killing

I attended the press conference and vigil at Franklin and Chicago Avenues this morning for the Somali man whom Minneapolis police shot and killed yesterday.  The very diverse turnout of about 100 people was impressive.  RT showed up early and talked to all of the reporters.  He gets credit for being at the scene in the community - which would be unimaginable with at least the past two mayors.  His commitment to concrete meaningful action, however, is the more importantant and difficult test.  RT's talk was limited to getting the information and listening to the community's concerns.  The irony of just having eliminated the Civilian Review Authority and cutting the budget for any independent oversight by more than 50% illustrates the contradiction between talk and commitment.
 
As far as concrete and meaningful action goes, I do have a concrete suggestion:  
 
hire an independent investigator to gather the facts about this killing, as well as evaluating the policies and practices connected to this and the numerous other shootings by the Minneapolis police department in the past couple of years.
 
As of now, the case is referred to the Hennepin County Sheriff investigator, the regular practice in these cases.  The problem is that the Hennepin County Sheriff investigators will only focus on the specific incident, almost definitely exonerate the officers involved, and will not look at underlying policies and practices.   The Hennepin County Sheriff is separate from the police deparment only in the most technical sense, but in reality works hand-in-hand with the police department on a daily basis.  Its "investigations" of these incidents are superficial and focused on corroborating the police officer's accounts. 
 
In order to really "do something" about the trigger happy culture in the Minneapolis police department, we need an expert and in-depth investigation by investigators who really have no connection to the department.   Although RT mentioned at the press conference his usual emphasis on not spending more money because we are in a recession, the city recently spend $150 to examine the circumstances behind an elected offiicial taking a bribe.  It is certainly more important to spend money necessary to find out answers why the police are killing people.  The type of investigation conducted will be a real indicator about whether the city officials really care to find out why.
 
Jordan Kushner
Powderhorn


-- End of Forwarded Message

[Mpls] Police Shooting of Somali Man in South Mpls

[Shawn Lewis]

Police kill Somali man

Minneapolis police shot and 
killed a Somali immigrant who 
was armed with a machete and crowbar 
Sunday afternoon, leaving a family 
heartbroken and a community uneasy.

The full article will be available
on the Web for a limited time:

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/local/2835000.htm

Shawn Lewis
Field Neighborhood
-- 

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Re: [Mpls] Strib: Is Mpls-Issues too powerful?

[Andy Driscoll]

This is no monster. Others have suggested, perhaps rightly, that there is
some serious journalistic jealousy at work here. And not a little
territorial envy as well, perhaps also not without justification.

Remember, Brauer's day job is that of editor of what some at the Strib may
consider competition - The Skyway News. Now, David doesn't have to cite
that. We have.

And why would Barb Johnson not use this same list to round up support for
her cause. Annie Young is not averse to it. Might even sponsor the change.

Of course, policymakers must be fair, must seek some consistency and balance
in their resource allocations. But it often is not fair in execution and the
squeaky wheel theory does indeed work.

This list is moderated by a King Field resident. Does that influence who
participates and who does not? Should it make a difference to anyone? To
policymakers?

Policies require perspective, but citizen participation is all about
pressure on the their makers, and it makes no sense in the absence of
perceived fairness or effective lobbying by others that this list or any
other organizing mechanisms be blamed for their successes.

David may or may not have had organizing citizens as a primary part of this
list's original mission, but if it has performed that function as an
outgrowth of its success in creating a forum for issues discussion, then so
be it and thank god for it.

Better Doug Grow ask Barb Johnson why she hasn't either sufficiently
participated here to round up the necessary forces for her cause or started
her own parochial list for boosting North Side influence on the processes
that affect them.

Andy Driscoll
Saint Paul
--
"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied
corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of
strength, and bid defiance to the laws of the country."
--- Thomas Jefferson,1816

> From: "List Manager" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:31:52 -0600
> To: "Mpls list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [Mpls] Strib: Is Mpls-Issues too powerful?
> 
> Doug Grow asks the question: does Minneapolis-Issues have elected
> officials wrapped around its virtual finger? A source for "e-mail
> demagoguery?"
> 
> Barb Johnson provides ignition, DQ provides the fuel...who knows where
> it will land!
> 
> I do think this is a watershed of sorts, and could prompt an interesting
> discussion of how influential the list really is, and whether that's a
> good thing...
> 
> http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/1922367.html
> 
> David Brauer
> List manager
> (I feel a little like Dr. Frankenstein right now!)
> 
> 
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Re: [Mpls] Re: Is Mpls-Issues too powerful?/Waiting to Exhale!

[Eva Young]

At 10:21 AM 3/11/02 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>In a message dated 3/11/02 8:51:19 AM Central Standard Time, 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
><< 
> Broadly based access to information improves our sense of community and
> civic engagement and that lesson is already being taught throughout the
> educational system. It's the learning curve for adults that needs
> attention and Mpls-Issues is a great tool for this. Information doesn't
> just come to us, we send information back - opinions, helpful hints,
> announcements, you name it! No point in being grumpy about this because
> the trend is irresistible and fun besides.
> 
> Fred Markus Horn Terrace Ward Ten
> 
> __ >>
>   Keith Says; What some may dismiss as a gripe from a grump toward the 
>"List" was more CM Barb Johnson being real. The Park Board had turned down 
>her and other Northside leaders' pleas for ice cream concessions up north 
>with the explanation that it would not be profitable. We all subsequently 
>learn that Southside concessions have, in fact, been huge money losers. It
is 
>the fairness issue that must upset her. It does me. 
>   Keith Reitman, NearNorth

Well then why doesn't she recruit more northside folks to post on this
list, rather than whine about list influence?  She didn't say that she was
upset by the hypocrisy of not having Northside icecream concession stands
because they were going to lose money, only to learn that the Lake Harriet
stand is losing money.  

I guess this type of whining torks me off, because at least participation
in this list is free.  I'm much more concerned about the lobbyists
downtown, getting constant access to the city council.  This list is one of
the only ways the average person can compete with that.

Eva
Eva Young
Central

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Re: [Mpls] Strib: Is Mpls-Issues too powerful?

[KHarley471]

Loki echoes my sentiments exactly.

Speaking from my own experience, I credit this list with being there when I needed it, 
and for directly solving an issue that affected my job (after I made three separate 
calls to the city department in question in an effort to resolve the situation 
privately). 

As a non-South Minneapolitan, I don't have an objection to the "South Minneapolis 
emphasis." If there is an imbalance, then the solution is more speech and 
participation, not less, by more people joining the discussion.

If anyone--Council Members, Department Heads, Supervisors or whoever--resents the 
"power" of this list, then they should make a concerted effort to respond quickly to 
the letters, e-mails, and phone calls they receive. No citizen should ever be 
arbitrarily dismissed as unimportant.

Kristine Harley
Sheridan

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Re: [Mpls] Redistricting Geek Park Districts

[Eva Young]

At 09:17 AM 3/11/02 -0600, David Brauer wrote:
>Not wanting to leave the Parks out of the redistricting discussion, I've
>mapped a proposal. It's very logical, compact, and respects natural and
>man-made barriers.
>
>Check it out at:
>
>http://members.tcq.net/david/parks.htm
>
>There's also a new map of where incumbents live (roughly; those of you
>who want to egg their houses won't get addresses from me!) This is so
>citizens can follow the incumbent-protection factor.
>
>http://members.tcq.net/david/incumbents.htm
>
>The full redistricting site is at:
>
>http://members.tcq.net/david/index.htm
>
>You may be asking, "When does Brauer work?" Now! See you later...

Hi Folks:  Looking at many of these plans (not all), most of them would put
Dean Zimmerman and Robert Lilligren running against each other.  I think
there is a problem with how the 6th Ward is a horseshoe shape now.  

I personally have mixed feelings about this.  Should these boundaries
change in this way, I would like to have the opportunity to have a council
election sooner rather than later, because I am uncomfortable with having a
council person who I didn't have an opportunity to vote for.  

On the other hand, Lake St does seem to be a good, natural dividing line.
I also think that with another election -- without an incumbent in the 8th
ward would encourage a number of candidates to run.  Personally I would
like to see a more conservative candidate representing me.  The reason I
supported Robert was not because he was very liberal, but rather because I
felt that Brian Herron was not doing his job, and I wanted a hard worker in
that position.  I feel that Robert is a very hard worker.  I don't have a
problem with that.  

Also, I take issue with talking about "minority opportunity" districts as
opposed to "upscale districts".  This suggests that minorities are poor,
while whites are upscale.  I know that the Heritage Homeowners group in
Central -- which is mostly African Americans, is also very interested in
making Central a magnet drawing in professional people.  Why shouldn't
"minority opportunity" wards be "upscale".  

Eva Young
Central

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[Mpls] dog parks

[Gene]

Could someone with experience using them please
email me?  I have a new dog and would like to try
them out.
Thanks,
Gene Swanson
Lind-Bohanon
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[Mpls] Is Mpls-Issues too powerful?

[Brown, Terrell]

There are 800 names on this list.  CM Colvin Roy won her last election
by less than 800 votes as did Councilmembers Niziolek (663), Zimmerman
(181), Zerby (108) and Johnson Lee (72).  In the normal course of city
events 800 people will have a significant influence.  5 of our 13
council members won their election by fewer votes than the number of
names on this list.

We don't prevent anyone from participating on this list.  We have at
least one regular participant who tells us that he does not own a
computer and uses free public internet access at the library.  No
barriers to entry.  We don't have any intimidating guards that you might
find at, say City Hall, that might scare someone away.

That 800 people are even aware of this discussion is a wonderful thing.
Even better, this is not a one sided lobby group, this group sees a
variety of opinions on many issues.  I cannot help but wonder what kind
of dream world Councilmember Johnson is in to suggest that an 800 person
discussion is to powerful, the City only surveyed 1,210 in their recent
attempt to determine citizen priorities.

Grow tell us "Johnson comes at this with a north Minneapolis resident's
distrust of south Minneapolis".  Maybe we need some councilmembers who
don't distrust people based on where they live.

Maybe I wish I had enough ego to think that an email list has enough
power to intimidate city officials into making a specific decision.
Rather, I think the open public discussion that has been created is
something we should all be proud of.  That Mayor Rybak and a number of
council members participate only emphasizes that it is a serious
discussion.

No not to powerful, just interested, concerned and involved.




Terrell Brown
Loring Park
terrell at terrellbrown dot org
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Re: [Mpls] Re: Is Mpls-Issues too powerful?/Waiting to Exhale!

[PennBroKeith]

In a message dated 3/11/02 8:51:19 AM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< 
 Broadly based access to information improves our sense of community and
 civic engagement and that lesson is already being taught throughout the
 educational system. It's the learning curve for adults that needs
 attention and Mpls-Issues is a great tool for this. Information doesn't
 just come to us, we send information back - opinions, helpful hints,
 announcements, you name it! No point in being grumpy about this because
 the trend is irresistible and fun besides.
 
 Fred Markus Horn Terrace Ward Ten
 
 __ >>
   Keith Says; What some may dismiss as a gripe from a grump toward the 
"List" was more CM Barb Johnson being real. The Park Board had turned down 
her and other Northside leaders' pleas for ice cream concessions up north 
with the explanation that it would not be profitable. We all subsequently 
learn that Southside concessions have, in fact, been huge money losers. It is 
the fairness issue that must upset her. It does me. 
   Keith Reitman, NearNorth
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[Mpls] Redistricting Geek Park Districts

[David Brauer]

Not wanting to leave the Parks out of the redistricting discussion, I've
mapped a proposal. It's very logical, compact, and respects natural and
man-made barriers.

Check it out at:

http://members.tcq.net/david/parks.htm

There's also a new map of where incumbents live (roughly; those of you
who want to egg their houses won't get addresses from me!) This is so
citizens can follow the incumbent-protection factor.

http://members.tcq.net/david/incumbents.htm

The full redistricting site is at:

http://members.tcq.net/david/index.htm

You may be asking, "When does Brauer work?" Now! See you later...

David Brauer
King Field - Ward 10
Park District 6


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RE: [Mpls] Where in the world are Mpls-Issues posters?

[List Manager]

Typo: I chose the first 10 days of Jan., Feb. and March 2002.

Sorry.

David Brauer
List manager

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf
Of List
> Manager
> 
> To compile data, I chose, arbitrarily, the first 10 days of Jan., Feb.
> and March 2000...742 posts in all! I counted posts, not individuals,
but
> that's because it reflects the actual conversation.



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Re: [Mpls] Strib: Is Mpls-Issues too powerful?

[Joseph Barisonzi]

I am curious about Doug Grow's collumn raising questions about our 
little list's impact of the park's DQ decision. His article seems to 
have missed one of the many obvious rally calls to question the Park 
Board's initail decision.

On Mar. 3, a collumn was published in the Strib called: "Want a Dairy 
Queen at Lake Harriet and Calhoun?" The tone was clearly that the 
proposed commercialization should be challenged. The author was not 
David Braur, or Annie Young.  The author was: Doug Grow.

Now I love Doug Grow's collumns, even when I disagree with them. But a 
little disclosure on this one would seem to have been only fair.

Joseph Barisonzi
Lyndale, Ward 10


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[Mpls] Where in the world are Mpls-Issues posters?

[List Manager]

So ARE we Southwest-dominated?

Thank goodness there's a list rule asking you to sign with your
neighborhood as well as name. It allowed me to do a little research on
where our posters live in the city. (A reminder: please sign with
neighborhood, not ward or SD # if you can.)

A disclaimer: I can't tell where ALL members live - if you are a
lurker, your location is invisible, too. However, we'll assume posters
reflect overall membership.

To compile data, I chose, arbitrarily, the first 10 days of Jan., Feb.
and March 2000...742 posts in all! I counted posts, not individuals, but
that's because it reflects the actual conversation.

To my surprise, we are NOT southwest-dominatedno matter how you draw
the map. Here are two ways of figuring it - neighborhood specific
results follow.

If you split the city into 5 parts (SE includes the U-area and Downtown
includes the neighborhoods inside the Mississippi-35W-94 freeway ring),
posts break down like this:

Posts   List%   Pop%
SE  253 38.938.2
SW  222 34.127.5
DT   67 10.3 5.5
NE   59  9.110.7
N50  7.718.2

With the exception of the SW and N sections, list posts reflect the
city's population closely. SW has about a third more posts than
expected, N side about half. But that's a far smaller disparity than I
expected.

Or, if you split the city into quadrants by 35W and the Mississippi.

Posts   List%   Pop%
SW  254 38.531.2
SE  223 33.833.1
NE  101 15.315.9
N73 11.019.8

The disparities shrink: SW has about a quarter more posts than by
population, while the north side has about 40 percent fewer.

The neighborhood results were extremely satisfying. 63 of the city's 80
neighborhoods were represented in 30 days of posting! As Loki suggests,
we have a lot of Central here, although my neighborhood, Kingfield, is
the champ (thanks to me, Ken Avidor, the Manns, Steve Brandt, and
others.) The big neighborhood and communities (4-neighborhood Longfellow
and NENA) tended to rise to the top. The * indicates one person is
responsible for all neighborhood posts.

SW - Kingfield, 59
SE - Central, 49
SE - Phillips, 49
SW - Whittier, 36
SE - Longfellow Community, 35
DT - Loring Park, 30
SW - Linden Hills, 26
SE - Seward, 25
SW - Lyndale, 25
SE - Prospect Park, 22
SW - East Harriet, 21
SE - Powderhorn, 17
DT - Downtown West, 16
NE - Marshall Terrace, 15*
N - Near North, 15
SE - Standish-Ericsson, 14
NE - St. Anthony West, 14
N - Cleveland, 13
DT - Nicollet Island-E. Bank, 12
SE - NENA, 12
SW - Lynnhurst, 11
SW - Steven's Square, 11
SW - Fulton, 10
N - Shingle Creek, 9*
SE - Cedar-Riverside, 8
SE - Bancroft, 8
SE - Marcy Holmes, 8
DT - North Loop, 7*
NE- Waite Park, 7
NE - Windom Park, 7
NE - Sheridan, 6
SE - Corcoran, 6
NE - Como, 5*
SW - Lowry Hill, 4
SW - Kenny, 4*
SW - Lowry Hill East, 4
NE - Logan Park, 4*
N- Willard-Hay, 3*
SE - Bryant, 3
SW - Tangletown, 3
SW - Armitage, 3*
N - Folwell, 3
SW - CIDNA, 2
DT - Elliot Park, 2*
SW - West Calhoun, 2*
SW - CARAG, 2
N- Hawthorne, 2
N- Lind-Bohannan, 2*
N- Harrison, 2
SE - Field, 2
SW - Windom, 2*
SE - Diamond Lake, 1*
N - Camden, 1*
SW - East Calhoun, 1*
NE - St. Anthony East, 1*
SW - Kenwood, 1*

St. Paul & environs, 58
West Metro, 15
Rest of U.S., 9*
Australia, 1

Also, 45 people posted on DQ in the first seven dayslots of
first-time posters, too.

David Brauer
List manager



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[Mpls] Re: Is Mpls-Issues too powerful?

[Fredric Markus]

I've had one commentary article on the op-ed page of the Star Tribune
over a span of six or seven years and while my letters to the editor
often get printed, they also get chopped. I admit it, I'm an inveterate
writer and I have contributed many would-be column inches to this list. 

So have many others and sometimes the give and take gets pretty hot. We
can't do this with daily, weekly, bi-weekly and monthly hardcopy
outlets. Without question, these online dialogues have quickened the
pace of discussion around town. 

We also benefit from the clearinghouse function that alerts us to nifty
stuff elsewhere on the web - look how quickly redistricting material has
landed under our collective noses. This clearly pushes the public
process and shines a great light on those of us who must negotiate our
way through this decennial task. When the legislative district outlines
are published on the web at 1:00 pm on March 19, a whole bunch of people
will jump on the information and they aren't likely to be concerned
about the "undue influence" potential some find troubling.

What's yet to be explored is the potential for routine public access
beyond the thousands of home computers - Internet kiosks like those
already in place at the University of Minnesota - and a wide
understanding in our population that this information vehicle can be as
normal and as accepted in our lifestyles as the electronic traffic
control grid that drivers and pedestrians depend on every day. What's
new is the interactive part and on that point we've hardly scratched the
surface.

Broadly based access to information improves our sense of community and
civic engagement and that lesson is already being taught throughout the
educational system. It's the learning curve for adults that needs
attention and Mpls-Issues is a great tool for this. Information doesn't
just come to us, we send information back - opinions, helpful hints,
announcements, you name it! No point in being grumpy about this because
the trend is irresistible and fun besides.

Fred Markus Horn Terrace Ward Ten

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Re: [Mpls] Strib: Is Mpls-Issues too powerful?

[loki anderson]

Is the list extremely south Minneapolis oriented?
Certainly. I probably know more about the inner
machinations of the Central Neighborhood Improvement
Association than anyone who has never lived south or
west of the Mississippi. But that's a reflection of
the make-up of the list. If CM Johnson wants that to
change, why doesn't she post? Why doesn't she
encourage some of the more net-conscious of her
constituents to join the list?

She reminds me of the critics of the caucus system.
Same criticisms: too small a group, too powerful in
skewing the system. But the critics never propose a
solution/improvement or try to use their own numbers
to correct the imbalance. They just want it to go away
and to hell with the loss of a participatory
citizenry. Sad.

  Loki Anderson
  Marshall Terrace
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


=
"In their styes with all their backing
 They don't care what goes on around
 In their eyes there's something lacking
 What they need's a damn good whacking"
   -George Harrison

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Re: [Mpls] Strib: Is Mpls-Issues too powerful?

[Michael Atherton]

List Manager wrote:

> Doug Grow asks the question: does Minneapolis-Issues have elected
> officials wrapped around its virtual finger? A source for "e-mail
> demagoguery?"

demagoguery - impassioned appeals to the emotions and prejudices of the populace.

It seems to me that demagoguery (e-mail or not) is an inherent (and unextirpative) 
dimension
of free expression. If there is fault it lies with the Park Broad for not having to 
the courage
to remain steadfastly rational in the face of  (possibly disproportionate) public 
pressure.

The courage to do the right thing is something that is seldom mentioned
in relation to politics anymore.

Michael Atherton
Prospect Park



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[Mpls] North Mississippi Regional Park Interpretive Center Opens

[Candyce Sartell]

Here's some news worth waking up on a Monday for.

The brand new Interpretive Center at the North
Mississippi Regional Park in the Camden Community
opens its doors to the public today for the first time
at 9 a.m.

The Interpetive Center would not have happened without
the persistent and vision of residents in north and
northeast Minneapolis.

The North Mississippi Regional Park will be the
official site of the Minneapolis Parks Arbor Day
Celebration to be held Saturday, May 4th. The
Interpretive Center's grand opening and dedication
will be held in conjunction with this event in the
early afternoon.

The Interpetive Center is a magnificent building! The
Camden Community News has been following the story of
this park and building since the days of its early
planning. For more information, dates and times of
operation and to see a beautiful picture of the
building (a picture is worth a thousand words!) please
visit the Camden News website at:

www.camdenews.org

Click on the story "A vision come true..."

Then, come out and see it in person for yourself.
North and Northeast residents - give yourself a BIG
pat on the back. You certainly deserve it!



=
Candy Sartell
Lind Bohanon, Ward 4

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