Re: [Mpls] CPED Staffers to get $30, 000 pay raises- What do you mean by IS?
On 3/23/05 11:24 PM, "gemgram" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jonathon Palmer says, >> The information presented is not a raise, but rather appears > to be a change in Grade which gives a change in salary range."< > > Jonathon, that is a whole bunch of dust thrown up and spin to call something > by another name. Heck, perhaps they deserve it, but somebody will be making > $30,000 more, what ever you call it. What exactly you mean by "IS" is not > our question, and IS not what Booker was saying. As someone who works in government, I can attest to what Jonathan was saying. Most civil service employees that I am aware of gain salary increases and/or promotions using a steps and lanes system, similar to how public school teachers get paid. For example, when I started at the office where I currently work, my starting salary was about $26K, which was the second lane in the entry-level step for my position because I had a year's worth of prior experience that my supervisor gave me credit for when he offered me the position. The top lane for that position was about $38K, which is what someone with about ten or twelve years' experience in that position would earn. About two years after I started, I was promoted to a position with some greater responsibility and subsequently a higher pay grade. That was a two-step promotion and came with about a $3K salary increase. I should also point out that with each collective bargaining contract comes some changes in how the salary grades are assigned and also, from time to time, salary grades are changed for specific positions (such as information technology specialists) to ensure that salaries are competitive enough to attract or keep highly-qualified candidates. Now looking at what Booker posted and in Jonathan's case, it would appear that he was slotted into a lower grade than his predecessor, which would explain the lower salary range. That could be due to a number of factors, but the most likely one is probably less experience. In the case of Michael Christenson, whose current pay rate is somewhere in the range between $65,066-$96,141 and proposed new pay rate is somewhere in the range between $103,500-$114,395, the most likely situation is that he is now at the top of his current range and would move up to the bottom of his proposed new range. Which means he would not get a $30K raise. He would get about a $7K raise. You can argue whether that's merited, but at least make sure you are talking about what's actually being proposed instead of making stuff up or blowing off someone's explanation as "bull" just because you don't like it. I would reiterate Jonathan's suggestion to wait until the staff report is issued that would actually provide some details and context on just what Booker Hodges was given. Until then, we cannot really be sure whether there's a lot of bull going on or just a lot of hot air... Mark Snyder Windom Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] CPED Staffers to get $30, 000 pay raises- What do you mean by IS?
Jonathon Palmer says, The information presented is not a raise, but rather appears to be a change in Grade which gives a change in salary range."< Jonathon, that is a whole bunch of dust thrown up and spin to call something by another name. Heck, perhaps they deserve it, but somebody will be making $30,000 more, what ever you call it. What exactly you mean by "IS" is not our question, and IS not what Booker was saying. In the real world if you get $30,000 dollars more in your pay check for doing the same job it IS called a raise. You can argue with Booker, but you can't argue with mathematics! No matter how you explain cellular content you can't make a baloney sandwich into a porterhouse steak and sell it. That old dog just won't hunt in these woods. There really IS a difference between Beef and Bull! One comes out as steak the other as baloney. Now I might like a little baloney sandwich now and then, BUT PLEASE do not tell this old country boy it IS a porterhouse. Let's stop the bull and say they are getting a raise of $30,000 dollars and justify it if you can. If they are doing such a good job then simply show it and be done. The real world understands that. But please no more bull, our political cholesterol levels are already too high in this City. It is like telling North Minneapolis residents around 26th and Knox that statistics for the City of Minneapolis say there is no crime problem, and they don't need more police officers. Here comes that Bulloney sandwich again! Jim Graham, from the porch steps in Ventura Village "The attempt to close the gap between what is known and what IS, is the temptation behind the apple in Genesis."< REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] MPRB Kept DeLaSalle Promise
This is the De La Salle provision from the "Nicollet Island Agreement" dated May 19, 1983 and signed by Patty Hillmeyer for the MPRB and James Helzer for the MCDA. "The Board shall, at any time and with funds from any sources deemed suitable by the Park Board, use its best efforts to construct upon property adjacent to the De La Salle property, an outdoor neighborhood recreational and athletic facility (the "Athletic Facility"), which at a minimum shall consist of a full (regulation) size football field and no less than two full (regulation) size tennis courts, provided, however, that the board shall have no obligation to construct the Athletic Facility until a reciprocal agreement between the board and the owners of the De la Salle Property has been agreed to for the use of the Athletic Facilities and existing facilities of De La Salle. The Board shall be responsible for the maintenance of the Athletic Facility, as long as the property upon which the Athletic Facility is constructed is owned or leased by the Board." The MPRB never promised to build an athletic facility for De La Salle - it just promised the MCDA that it would build a neighborhood rec/athletic facility next to De La Salle. Without a reciprocal agreement from De La Salle, the MPRB has already exceeded its obligations under this contract. The MPRB neighborhood rec/athletic facility was built. It is on property adjacent to De La Salle. The MPRB's source of funds, a Met Council Open Space grant, prohibited construction of the football field but the tennis courts have been completed. The MPRB maintains the neighborhood rec facility - the parkland and tennis courts. Here is more - quoted from Scott Russell's excellent report on this provision that appeared in the Skyway News: "It is a provision with some mystery. It appears to contradict the 1979 contract with the Met Council, which said the parkland should remain open space. Further, DeLaSalle is not a party to the '79 contract Who asked for the DeLaSalle language four years later? [Al] Whitman, the senior park planner and point person negotiating the contract, said the MCDA requested it. DeLaSalle supporters "had some influence with MCDA members," he said. "It was not something the Park Board would have volunteered." Met Council minutes show that its open-space commission was concerned about the Nicollet Island Agreement. Stefferud wrote a May 1983 memo that stated "construction of the football field and tennis courts as a neighborhood recreation facility would not be consistent with regional park uses. [R]egional park funds could not be used to acquire the land upon which the facility is located." Stefferud still works for the Met Council. He said he only recently learned the Park Board had built tennis courts on the open-space land, a use he now calls "iffy." Whitman noted the 1983 contract says the Park Board is not obligated to build the DeLaSalle athletic facility until DeLaSalle and the Park Board have "a reciprocal agreement" for using the athletic facility and "existing facilities of DeLaSalle." The Park Board envisioned DeLaSalle sharing not only the outdoor athletic field but its inside space as well, such as the gym and meeting rooms. He noted, "There has never been a reciprocal agreement written out." The current battle centers on Park Board tennis courts at Grove & Nicollet streets, built by the Park Board on parkland. DeLaSalle has proposed expanding the athletic fields across Grove Street and onto the site of the current tennis courts. The Park Board paid $1.1 million to acquire that property, the former home of Island Tile and Marble, according to Board documents. Some residents say that DeLaSalle has a football field already - and got it by expanding into part of Grove Street, making it narrower. [Phyllis] Kahn said the residents have accommodated previous DeLaSalle requests; for instance, the school gets first call on the tennis courts. (The court has no sign indicating it is a public facility.)" The complete article is online http://www.skywaynews.net/articles/2005/03/15/news/news01.txt. Shawne FitzGerald Powderhorn REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] CPED Staffers to get $30,000 pay raises
Palmer is right when he says that I don't if someone is getting a $30,000 raise but I know that their position is getting a $30,000+ raise. The pay scales that I listed where obtained from the letters sent by Mrs. French (Director of Human Resources) to the Mayor on March 3, 2005 and copied to Lee Sheehy- Director of CPED, Timothy Giles- Director Employee Services, Carol Rodgers-Senior Human Resources Consultant, Mike Anderson- Central Payroll, Crystal DeJarlais-HRIS, Barbara Payton- HRIS, Betty Stanifer- Classifications. After further examination of the documents I have discovered that Lee Sheehy's directors position also received a pay increase sometime ago. His previous salary range was between $110,400-$122,021 and his current salary range is between $113,569-$125,523. Jonathan's position as Administrator of the Empowerment Zone which is now under CPED was reduced in pay. Kim Havey the former administrator made between $75,735-$83,707 where JP's salary is between $65,043-$71,890. Like I said in my previous post I am not going to state my opinion in this matter just a presentation of the facts based on the city documents that I have obtained. If anyone would like to see these documents just shoot me a fax number and I will fax them to you. I understand that it is a political season and getting caught raising salaries during a hiring freeze won't go over to well with the voters, but none the less CPED with the blessing of the Mayor is trying to do just that. Don't shoot the messenger. Like I said if ANYONE wants copies of these documents give me a fax number and I will fax them to you. JP is also correct that the staff will make a report at the Ways and Means Committee hearing on Monday unless someone puts this item on the agenda as a consent Item as opposed to one that will be discussed. Either way you cut it the minimum raise that a person holding one of these positions would get is $10,237. I have listed the positions below again for you to view. Position: Director Economic Policy & Development (CPED) Position held by: Michael Christenson Current pay rate: $65,066- $96,141 Proposed new pay rate: $103,500-$114,395 Rate Increase: $38,434-$18,254 Position: Deputy Director (CPED) Position held by: Charles Lutz Current pay rate: $98,857- $100,296 Proposed new pay rate: $109,094-$120,577 Rate increase: $10,237-$20,281 Position: Director Housing & Policy Development (CPED) Position held by: Elizabeth Ryan Current pay rate: $65,066- $96,141 Proposed new pay rate: $98,885-$109,294 Rate increase: $33,819-$13,153 Booker T Hodges IV Near North REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] CPED Staffers to get $30,000 pay raises~Not Quite
I think in order to be fair, it should be pointed out that it is not accurate to say that anyone is getting a $30K raise based on the information given. The information presented is not a raise, but rather appears to be a change in Grade which gives a change in salary range. Government employees are given Grade levels (e.g. Grade 10) which indicates their level of authority and responsibility, salary range, FLSA/exempt status, etc. Grade "X" would have a salary range from $65-85K, while Grade "Y" would have a salary range from $100K-109K. Where you start in that range is dependent upon your experience, job responsibilities, etc. There are established Steps within that range, such that once you have a starting point, you go to the next Step and so on until you exhaust the Steps in that Grade. You either remain at that salary level for the remainder of your service or the Grade level is changed. It would therefore only be a $30K+ raise if the person were at the bottom of the Grade and the position was upgraded. However, given that these are Director level positions, they are not at the bottom rung of the Grade. Further, as positions get higher in salary, the Step increase percentage gets lower. For the proposed new range, depending on the number of steps, you're looking at a 2-4% raise at each step, which is consistent with standard "cost-of-living" increases. Without knowing the exact salary and/or the content of the letter Booker has referenced, it cannot be determined what the actual raise is, or even if it's a raise. However, the Ways and Means Agenda next week will have a staff report which explains the rationale for the Grade change or whatever the new pay rate coincides with. I'd suggest looking at that before determining what the salary increase is, but it's not accurate to call it a $30K+ raise for anyone. Jonathan Palmer Victory In a message dated 3/23/2005 8:46:48 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For once I am going to leave my opinion out of a post and just present the facts and ask some questions. I have obtained copies of letters sent by Pam French Director of Human Resources for our lovely city to Mayor Rybak dated March 3, 2005. In these letters Mrs. French under the direction of Lee Sheehy Director of CPED indicated that several appointed positions within CPED should receive significant pay raises. I have listed the positions below with the proposed raises. I would ask you to keep in mind that the government cap is currently $114,288. The city is still under a hiring freeze so why are these people getting $30,000+ pay raises in some cases? Position: Director Economic Policy & Development (CPED) Position held by: Michael Christenson Current pay rate: $65,066- $96,141 Proposed new pay rate: $103,500-$114,395 Rate Increase: $38,434-$18,254 Position: Deputy Director (CPED) Position held by: Charles Lutz Current pay rate: $98,857- $100,296 Proposed new pay rate: $109,094-$120,577 Rate increase: $10,237-$20,281 Position: Director Housing & Policy Development (CPED) Position held by: Elizabeth Ryan Current pay rate: $65,066- $96,141 Proposed new pay rate: $98,885-$109,294 Rate increase: $33,819-$13,153 REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] New Star Tribune Conservative Columnist
Well, in reading her bio it is obvious to me that the editors and owners of the strib want to appeal to the "red" landscape that envelopes Minneapolis in the outer ring suburbs and rural areas. The article states that she brings a much needed new perspective to Minnesota. That being said, will the paper's name then be changed to the "Minnesota Star and Tribune" or the "Suburban Star and Tribune? It appears that the direction the paper is heading is to appeal to Edina or North Oaks residents et al. Maybe the new name could be called the TC Tory. (very tongue in cheek) I am sure the Mpls. readership numbers are abysmal and highly outnumbered by those in the so-called greener pastures of suburban and rural readers that Ms. Kersten will resonate with. If that is true and the direction or the strib is in fact changing then the name should reflect the change. It would then appear that we need a new paper to report on Minneapolis news as a whole. Maybe the Southwest Journal or the Skyway News should now become the Minneapolis Journal or Minneapolis News. Barb Lickness Whittier "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] CPED Staffers to get $30,000 pay raises
For once I am going to leave my opinion out of a post and just present the facts and ask some questions. I have obtained copies of letters sent by Pam French Director of Human Resources for our lovely city to Mayor Rybak dated March 3, 2005. In these letters Mrs. French under the direction of Lee Sheehy Director of CPED indicated that several appointed positions within CPED should receive significant pay raises. I have listed the positions below with the proposed raises. I would ask you to keep in mind that the government cap is currently $114,288. The city is still under a hiring freeze so why are these people getting $30,000+ pay raises in some cases? I wonder how city employees feel who have been told that they will not be getting a raise because of our alleged budget situation. I am not sure at this point but I think that these pay raises are to be voted on at the Ways and Means Committee meeting this coming Monday at 1:30pm. I would hope that in light of our alleged current budget situation that the City Council denies these pay raises. Call your Council member and tell them how you feel. Lastly I just want to say that I don't have anything against any of the people who currently hold these positions I just believe the public has a right to know whats going on. Position: Director Economic Policy & Development (CPED) Position held by: Michael Christenson Current pay rate: $65,066- $96,141 Proposed new pay rate: $103,500-$114,395 Rate Increase: $38,434-$18,254 Position: Deputy Director (CPED) Position held by: Charles Lutz Current pay rate: $98,857- $100,296 Proposed new pay rate: $109,094-$120,577 Rate increase: $10,237-$20,281 Position: Director Housing & Policy Development (CPED) Position held by: Elizabeth Ryan Current pay rate: $65,066- $96,141 Proposed new pay rate: $98,885-$109,294 Rate increase: $33,819-$13,153 REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] RE: Nicollet Island Field
- Original Message - From: "John Erwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Cc: "'John Erwin'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 9:41 AM Subject: [Mpls] RE: Nicollet Island Field John writes.. 3) There has been great concern about the potential road closure on the island. For this reason, why not put the field on the front of the building and put new parking with much increased tree planting in the lots on the back of the building and not close the road? When this was brought up to DeLaSalle, it is my understanding that the front of the building has the space for a regulation football field but not soccer. *I believe the idea of putting the field in the front of the building is great! No room for soccer...Neiman Sports Complex... huge soccer field...designed with the inner city kid in mind. Compromise! Thanks John for looking at this objectively, you will be missed. you at least have had an open line of discussion and I feel you are one to be trusted. It truly will be our loss. dorie gallagher nokomis Wasn't the Neiman Sports Complex with it's huge soccer field built for the inner city kids? REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Nicollet Island Stadium
Annie Young wrote: "In the meantime, without knowing the schematic design of the proposed fields I can honestly say I don't think we are talking a stadium here " Peter Vevang writes: The way I think the process should work for a typical project like this is as follows: 1. Due diligence: feasibility, title search, site examination, rough budget, benchmarking 2. Pre-design: establish the project program, goals and criteria (usually accompanied by a master plan with concept sketches for a project like this) '*Public participation*'and if necessary back to step 1, or the end of the process. 3. Budget and final design program 4. Authorize the project: purchase the site, prepare a survey, issue RFP's, authorize design contracts, build the team and begin the process towards construction. 5. Architectural Design: schematic design, design development and constructions drawings and specifications. 6. Bids, final financing, final budget, schedule, insurance and construction contracts signed 7. Construction Citizen input should begin long before the "schematic design" phase. That is at step 5, after the project has been approved for construction. For true citizen involvement to take place, we will need to start the public process at the end of step 2, before all the major decisions have been made and the project has been given approval and the site has been purchased (or leased). In my opinion, if the design ideas don't exist, we shouldn't be wasting time and money on a fiction. If they do exist, they have no good reason to keep them secret since this is not private property they want to use. I think a lot of boosters are getting caught up in the tortured legal history of the site since the late 1970's and have stopped looking at the bigger picture and trying to communicate. Solid things to talk about will make that process much clearer and less messy for everyone involved. We also need that master plan to understand the full big picture ramifications of this project. This is a key piece of beautiful property linking the river, north to south, at the juncture of DT Minneapolis, that is why it was saved in the first place. It could not be more strategic. Whether or not it is a stadium is not the most important thing. We should be looking at the big picture use of this site as our primary concern. We need to elevate that conversation. We deserve excellent and thorough answers on this or I fear we will blow it, and given past development blunders, that is a well founded fear. Peter Vevang Audubon p.s. can anyone confirm, did people really ride donkeys and horses there all the way up to the 1970's? What was that all about? REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Peak Oil Implications for Mpls Transportation
Considering the report below, how should we spend money for metro transportation -- more roads? -- or transit and walk/bike options? -- biodeisel & ethanol plants? Or...? The US DOE has lately received a strong warning about the implications of Peak oil, from a study they commissioned: http://www.peakoil.net/USDOE.html -- "The Mitigation of the Peaking of World Oil Production" by Hirsch, et al > Analysis of the simultaneous implementation of all of the options showed that an impact of roughly 25 million barrels per day might be possible 15 years after initiation. Because conventional oil production decline will start at the time of peaking, crash program mitigation inherently cannot avert massive shortages unless it is initiated well in advance of peaking. Specifically, ·Waiting until world conventional oil production peaks before initiating crash program mitigation leaves the world with a significant liquid fuel deficit for two decades or longer. ·Initiating a crash program 10 years before world oil peaking would help considerably but would still result in a worldwide liquid fuels shortfall, starting roughly a decade after the time that oil would have otherwise peaked. ·Initiating crash program mitigation 20 years before peaking offers the possibility of avoiding a world liquid fuels shortfall for the forecast period. Without timely mitigation, world supply/demand balance will be achieved through massive demand destruction (shortages), accompanied by huge oil price increases, both of which would create a long period of significant economic hardship worldwide. Other important observations revealed by the analysis included the following: 1. The date of world oil peaking is not known with certainty, complicating the decision-making process. A fundamental problem in predicting oil peaking is uncertain and politically biased oil reserves claims from many oil producing countries. 2. As recently as 2001, authoritative forecasts of abundant future supplies of North American natural gas proved to be excessively optimistic as evidenced by the recent tripling of natural gas prices. Oil and natural gas geology is similar in many ways, suggesting that optimistic oil production forecasts deserve to be viewed with considerable skepticism. 3. In the developed nations, the economic problems associated with world oil peaking and the resultant oil shortages will be extremely serious. In the developing nations, economic problems will be much worse. 4. While greater end-use efficiency is essential in the long term, increased efficiency alone will be neither sufficient nor timely enough to solve the oil shortage problem in the short term. To preserve reasonable levels of economic prosperity and growth, production of large amounts of substitute liquid fuels will be required. While a number of substitute fuel production technologies are currently available for deployment, the massive construction effort required will be extremely expensive and very time-consuming, even on a crash program basis. 5. Government intervention will be essential, because the economic and social impacts of oil peaking will otherwise be chaotic, and crash program mitigation will need to be properly supported. How and when governments begin to seriously address these challenges is yet to be determined. Oil peaking discussions should focus primarily on prudent risk management, and secondarily on forecasting the timing of oil peaking, which will always be inexact. Mitigation initiated earlier than required might turn out to be premature, if peaking is slow in coming. If peaking is imminent, failure to act aggressively will be extremely damaging worldwide. World oil peaking represents a problem like none other. The political, economic, and social stakes are enormous. Prudent risk management demands urgent attention and early action. < - pedaling for peace and ecojustice, from Lynnhurst Neighborhood in Mpls -- Gary Hoover REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] New Star Tribune Conservative Columnist
While the Strib's new columnist will be writing on Mpls news, her hiring is really not Mpls-specific. So let's move back to issues where Mpls is unique or prime. David Brauer List manager REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] New Star Tribune Conservative Columnist
wmmarks wrote: > However, surely there must be a conservative thinker out there the Strib > could have found. Kersten is the most lack-logic, allegedly political, > writer in the TC. Every time she writes I find myself going nuts at her > lack of good information and logic. > WizardMarks, Central I have to completely agree with Wizard, here. Just about any writer, except maybe Cheri Pierson Yecke, would be a better choice than Kersten. I was absolutely astonished to read her educational and professional biography, as outlined by Star Tribune editor Anders Gyllenhaal. How could anyone with that background be so completely incapable of putting several rational, accurate sentences together in one paragraph, much less a column? Her writing is 2 parts nonsense, 1 part misinformation and 1 part opinion. I vote they hire Constance Nompelis or Eva Young to write for them instead. Either would do a far better job and would make for much more interesting reading. One other quirk: Kersten's bio did not mention being an ordained minister at all, but is that not the case? If so, why was it omitted? -- Chris Johnson Fulton REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Nicollet Island Stadium
David Shove wrote: Dave here: I'm here, I need power, fame, the love of beautiful women... Wizard here: Me, too. A pile of money would be nice as well. WizardMarks, Central Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] RE: Nicollet Island Field
I am encouraged by the posts of John Erwin and Annie Young both of whom are Citywide Park Board Commissioners regarding what might be done about the proposed use of some open space on Nicollet Island by DeLaSalle High School for an athletic field. The public response on both sides seem interested in generating heat rather than light on the issue. At least the commissioners are saying that "I'm open to facts and would welcome any input that can provide more facts." It also seems evident that they are interested in the possibility of a win-win outcome. Steve Cross Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] New Star Tribune Conservative Columnist
WizardMarks said: here must be a conservative thinker out there the Strib could have found. Kersten is the most lack-logic, allegedly political, writer in the TC. Every time she writes I find myself going nuts at her lack of good information and logic. I very much agree. To his list of attributes I'd add that she's mean spirited and a bad writer. It's my theory that perhaps her hiring is a "liberal plot" by the Star-Tribune. They hire someone who's a poor representative of conservatism so that the philosophy won't gain any traction among the general public. She had editorial page pieces over the past year or two. They have appeared with less frequency that made me (obviously falsely) think that the editors recognized her limitations. And there was a deluge of letters every time one of her opinions appeared. They weren't protesting her opinion but how she expresses them. I can't imagine what the editors might have been thinking to give her a regular ink. Steve Cross Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Nicollet Island Stadium
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Dean Here: So what? What's your point? The school's there, they need > facilities. Dave here: I'm here, I need power, fame, the love of beautiful women... David Shove looking for more in Roseville REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Murderapolis T-Shirts Are Back
>From the Star Tribune website: Minneapolis gun shop owner Mark Koscielski coined the city's notorious sobriquet "Murderapolis" in 1995 and renewed the term to sell new T-shirts Tuesday. The black $15 T-shirts say "Murderapolis 2005" above a drawing of the grim reaper in front of the city's skyline. On the bottom, white letters read, "I'm back." Here is the link to the rest of the story:http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5308207.html I suppose anyone has the right to garner publicity and turn a buck but I can't help wondering how the T-shirts would read in Philadelphia which has just gone through 21 murders in 8 days. Bill Dooley (Kenny) REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] New Star Tribune Conservative Columnist
There is an article in this week's Nation by Katha Pollit (a fabulous writer) on the subject of females as columnists at the NYTimes and Wash.Post. (Available at your local library.) However, surely there must be a conservative thinker out there the Strib could have found. Kersten is the most lack-logic, allegedly political, writer in the TC. Every time she writes I find myself going nuts at her lack of good information and logic. WizardMarks, Central [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Star Tribune has named conservative Katherine Kersten as a Metro columnist. Kersten will write two columns a week beginning May 1. From the Poynter-Romenesko website: "I want to enhance the paper's capacity to speak to a broad community, to all the people of this state." Here is the link to the post: http://poynter.org/forum/view_post.asp?id=9102 On a related note, here is a column from today's San Francisco Chronicle regarding a current debate in the journalism community on lack of female voices on the op-ed pages. "Cindy Rodriguez of the Denver Post agreed with [Susan] Estrich and referred to the anachronistic 'formula' in which papers see one woman and one minority columnist as a recipe for diversity." Here is the link to the rest of the Chronicle column: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/03/22/EDGBPBQDPC1.DTL Minneapolis link on the related note: I believe the Rodriguez Formula for the Star Tribune would be slightly off with Kersten, Syl Jones and C.J. Bill Dooley Kenny - Ward 13 REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Stadium as Outdoor Arts Facility?
Opps, I fired off too soon: from: http://www.delasalle.com/Island%20Proposal%20rev%20Mar%202.pdf "With staging and seating areas, opportunities for outdoor fine arts programs for all students and the broader community" and "We have an opportunity to expand the campus footprint at this time and in so doing, potentially improve the schools athletic facilities and outdoor staging opportunities for fine arts programs." Is there an proven need for outdoor staging opportunities for fine arts programs? What about the outdoor amphitheater on the other end of the Island? Has this proven to be inadequate? Tom Taylor Sheridan Neighborhood -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tom Taylor Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 11:57 AM To: mpls@mnforum.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Mpls] Stadium as Outdoor Arts Facility? from DeLaSalle High School's web site at: http://www.delasalle.com/Island%20Proposal%20rev%20Mar%202.pdf "Our intent is to build a multi-purpose athletic and outdoor Arts facility adjacent to DeLaSalle." I could not find any other clarification of what an "outdoor Arts facility" means. Does anyone know? Tom Taylor Sheridan Neighborhood -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 11:54 AM To: mpls@mnforum.org Subject: [Mpls] Yelling Fire in a crowded room/ more info I have just talked to the Fire Marshall Dave Dewall and he has talked to the Chief about an official finding. There is no official finding, or official letter sent to DeLaSalle about this issue from the Chief. But trying to look at the big picture and to try to make sure I am not generating more heat than light about this subject. It may be a non issue if the Fire Department determines that there is no significant loss to access and safety. The Fire Marshall offered to come to public meetings to speak about this and this to explain their process and how they make decisions. >From my conversations, I would surmise that when a formal review is done that the access and safety issues on the Island can be probably be addressed with or without the closure of Grove Street. Thanks, Scott Vreeland Seward REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Stadium as Outdoor Arts Facility?
from DeLaSalle High School's web site at: http://www.delasalle.com/Island%20Proposal%20rev%20Mar%202.pdf "Our intent is to build a multi-purpose athletic and outdoor Arts facility adjacent to DeLaSalle." I could not find any other clarification of what an "outdoor Arts facility" means. Does anyone know? Tom Taylor Sheridan Neighborhood -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 11:54 AM To: mpls@mnforum.org Subject: [Mpls] Yelling Fire in a crowded room/ more info I have just talked to the Fire Marshall Dave Dewall and he has talked to the Chief about an official finding. There is no official finding, or official letter sent to DeLaSalle about this issue from the Chief. But trying to look at the big picture and to try to make sure I am not generating more heat than light about this subject. It may be a non issue if the Fire Department determines that there is no significant loss to access and safety. The Fire Marshall offered to come to public meetings to speak about this and this to explain their process and how they make decisions. >From my conversations, I would surmise that when a formal review is done that the access and safety issues on the Island can be probably be addressed with or without the closure of Grove Street. Thanks, Scott Vreeland Seward REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] RE: Nicollet Island Field
Not having read everything about Nicollet Island Field here is my way of looking at this. I did grow up in Golden Valley and Graduated from Robbinsdale Senior High on 36th Av n. At that time the district had Three High Schools and only ONE FOOTBALL/SOCCER/TRACK. For students to travel to games or meets was a regular occurrence. This also meant scheduling Graduation so each school had a specific night, and again bussing to the Field. If this is being made to seem like it's something only happening because this is the inner city its' not. Hopkins Field is in Downtown and the High school is on Cedar Lake RD. North high's field is blocks away from the school. and enjoy the Old Houses. I am one of the people who likes to go to the Island and ride around and Traveling to a Field is NOT uncommon. Joan Thom Hawthorne 24years REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] DeLa Salle stadium options
Ya know, when I throw out a hairbrained solution to stadiums on the Mississippi River, they are usually workable, i.e., method in madness. When this issue came up the last time, I suggested a DeLaSalle football field on a barge or perhaps several barges. David Shove suggests that one be built under water. Now as a SCUBA diver, I have a certain attraction to an idea like Shove's, but come onit is really unworkable; I think David's idea is perhaps a case of river envy from one of the northern suburbs without a big river to fight over. On a more serious note, however, Why doesn't DeLaSalle consider moving off the island? The land is unquestionably valuable and could finance much for a cash strapped Catholic school. Tradition may be holding them back, I suppose, but wouldn't they be able to realize a vision much greater than they have now if they just went somewheres else? Bill Kahn Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Yelling Fire in a crowded room/ more info
I have just talked to the Fire Marshall Dave Dewall and he has talked to the Chief about an official finding. There is no official finding, or official letter sent to DeLaSalle about this issue from the Chief. But trying to look at the big picture and to try to make sure I am not generating more heat than light about this subject. It may be a non issue if the Fire Department determines that there is no significant loss to access and safety. The Fire Marshall offered to come to public meetings to speak about this and this to explain their process and how they make decisions. >From my conversations, I would surmise that when a formal review is done that the access and safety issues on the Island can be probably be addressed with or without the closure of Grove Street. Thanks, Scott Vreeland Seward REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Colin Powell Center: What's In A Name? Part 2
Here is part 2 of my open letter to several local politicians about the
proposed Colin Powell Center:
I support increased efforts and funding to provide safety, education, and
nurture for the children in Minneapolis. I do not support expending tax
dollars for the Colin Powell Center as planned and named. It is not inclusive
of our community in terms of religion race, creed, or sexual orientation. The
current effort is dominated by one religious sect with a definite, divisive
religious-political agenda.
The most frightening thing about this project is the way God and US Imperialism
are married in an institutional form which helps to blind us all --
temporarily. Take time to find and read the account of M Scott Peck, who in
1972 was one of three psychiatrists appointed by the Army Surgeon General, at
the request of the Chief of Staff of the US Army, to investigate My Lai. (One
account is chapter 6 of Peck's 1983 book "People of the Lie.")
Peck believes that this massacre was a form of "group evil" with roots in the
group evil of our government and many in our nation who indulged in "national
narcissism." This continues to cause us to act as though laws and morality do
not apply to us as they do to others. "Wittingly or unwittingly, we actually
teach our children national narcissism..." writes Peck. ("People of The Lie,"
1983, page 246) Naming a youth center after Colin Powell will teach our youth
this national narcissism which makes us think we can act without regard for the
impact of our actions on others, without empathy, and without any negative
consequences to ourselves.
Peck asks how such a huge atrocity as My Lai -- within the huge atrocity of
Vietnam -- could happen:
"How could this have been? How could a whole people have gone to war not
knowing why? The answer is simple. As a people we were too lazy to learn and
too arrogant to think we needed to learn. We felt that whatever way we
happened to perceive things was the right way..."
"So it is that our "Christian" nation became a nation of villains. So it has
been with other nations in the past, and so it will be with other nations --
including our own again -- in the futurewe shall not be immune to war
until...we have made much further progress toward eradicating from our human
nature the twin progenitors of evil: laziness and narcissism." ( Peck, page
250).
We might ask the same questions -- and find the same answers -- regarding the
brutal, illegal, and immoral war in Iraq.
When our government is involved in funding such efforts to help the poorest and
most vulnerable of our children, we must take special care that the efforts are
inclusive and pluralistic. We must be sure that such ventures do not seduce us
all to the "laziness and narcissism" which desensitizes us to our own
brutality. We must not make such efforts a part of the lies we tell ourselves
to avoid seeing our own mistakes or misdeeds. Our children are learning from
us -- more than we know. "Is our children learning?" -- yes, they are. We
must plan and name any effort to help our children after activists --
preferably local activists -- who teach us the way of peace and justice.
-- pedaling for peace and ecojustice from Lynnhurst, for now -- Gary Hoover
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Re: [Mpls] Sorry to hear (oops....I didn't mean to share with everyone!)
Minneapolis Folks, I did not mean to share my message to John Erwin with everyone. Ken Bradley - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Sorry to hear
John, I was out of town last week at a conference and returned to hear you have decided to not seek re-election. I am very disappointed to hear you made that decision but understand it was for personal and family reasons, and can sympathize. While we didn't always agree, I valued your integrity, and willingness to listen. I thought you were truly one of the bright lights in local government, and you will be missed. I wish you the best in your future pursuits. Respectfully, Ken Bradley 651-726-7568 work - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Yelling fire in a crowded room
To add fuel to an already incendiary issue concerning the DeLaSalle Stadium issue: The online petition sent to the Mayor and Park Board Commissioners in support of the DeLaSalle stadium expansion states: "...that representatives from DeLaSalle, a hallmark on Nicollet Island since 1900, inquired about, and received written clearance from, the Fire Department and other safety offices of Minneapolis, to assure that safety access is not compromised in any way to any person living on Nicollet Island, including those who live at the Christian Brothers residence at DeLaSalle. " at _http://www.delasalle.com/Island%20Proposal%20rev%20Mar%202.pdf_ (http://www.delasalle.com/Island%20Proposal%20rev%20Mar%202.pdf) The proposal for the Stadium has a paragraph about Safety concerns that states that they have a written finding from the Fire Chief that the closing of Grove Street would have no impact on access or safety response on the north end of the island. Just reading that, and knowing the island, I just couldn't imagine that the Fire department could possibly come to the conclusion that closing this road would have no impact on fire or safety issues. Maybe someone could determine it was safe enough, but it is going to have an impact. So I called the Fire Department and talked to Doug Hordyk who is the person who does site plan review and would do the site plan review of this proposal. He said that despite many rumors there has been no proposal submitted and no formal decisions about safety concerns. I said that I was running for Park Board and that I wanted to understand this issue and provide accurate information. I asked if there was a quote I could use publicly that accurately reflects the determination of the Fire Department. That sentence: The Fire Department has made no formal decision about the closure of Grove Street. Thanks, Scott Vreeland Seward REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Nicollet Island - What Should the Park Board Do?
There has been a lot of emotion around the Nicollet Island DeLaSalle issue (some of it from me :-) , but I've been looking at the issue from the perspective of a Park Board Commissioner (no Walter - I'm not making an announcement). Putting the covenants, leases and legal documents aside for a moment, it seems to me that a rational Park Board member has to set aside what may be legitimate interests of both sides if those interests are unrelated to the mission of the Park Board, which is presumably to provide the best Park system possible to serve the citizens of the City of Minneapolis. Would the athletic facility and the closing of a street be an imposition to residents? Sure - but that doesn't mean it doesn't make a better Park. Do the DeLaSalle kids deserve a playing field? Sure - but that's not the Park Board's job. I think what the Park Board needs to do is to weigh what it would be giving up vs. what it would be getting, not for any special interest group, but for all citizens and Park users, and make the decision that produces the best result for those citizens and Park users. Obviously - if you've seen my previous posts, you know I have a dog in this fight (2 acutally, Rusty and Erin - who walk on that space every day) but, for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. What is the Park Board Giving Up? The Park Board would be giving up land, probably for 99 years, that they bought in 1986 for $1,065,000 in public dollars (we have no indication of current value, that would depend on zoning, etc. - but presumably it's significantly more than it was in 1986). The Park Board would be giving up a street that Park users and visitors use. The Park Board would be giving up some of the "look and feel" of the current Park - it would lose some open space and gain an athletic field with astroturf (I'm not making that up - Commissioner Dziedzic told me yesterday it would be astroturf). The Park Board would be giving up the open space on the east side of Island Avenue, where DeLaSalle proposes to move the existing tennis courts. And the Park Board would be giving up some of the peace and quiet that current Park visitors enjoy (adding lights for the field and increasing traffic for events). We can all disagree about the value of each of these - but I think they are all part of the calculus of the decision. What Does the Park Board Get in Return? In return, the Park Board gets the use of an athletic field when DeLaSalle is not using it - for practical purposes, the summer months. Maybe I'm missing something (if so, I'm sure others will enlighten me) - but if we are really fair, look at the interests of the Park Board in terms of their ability to fulfill their mission, and not the interests of others (except in their capacity as citizens entitled to use the Parks), that's all I think the Park Board gets out of the deal. Now what is that worth? Is there a demonstrated need for football/soccer fields for Park users in the summer? That's something the Park Board will have to look at - but I don't think they've studied it. Others, on both sides, will argue that the Park Board has broader interests, protecting neighborhoods, educating children, etc. and maybe they do - but it seems to me this decision has to be analyzed first by looking at how the outcome fulfills their core mission to our City. Barry Clegg Nicollet Island REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] RE: Nicollet Island Field
Hello All, I just wanted to weigh in on this issue as Annie has. As Annie has said, we have no official plan in front of us yet. I am undecided and am still gathering information. A few points that are important I think: 1) As mentioned before, there is wording that suggests restricted use of the land in the original purchase agreement. However, I believe it is possible to get and exception from this to allow the construction of a field. 2) I too have asked for alternatives. For instance, my first question was why not build the facility on the BF Nelson site just on the other side of the island. This site needs to be cleaned up anyway and it seemed as though it would be a good use along with the establishment of new gardens etc. while not using any additional space on the island. Course the neighbors on that side would need to be consulted. 3) There has been great concern about the potential road closure on the island. For this reason, why not put the field on the front of the building and put new parking with much increased tree planting in the lots on the back of the building and not close the road? When this was brought up to DeLaSalle, it is my understanding that the front of the building has the space for a regulation football field but not soccer. Although this is not perfect, it achieves many of DeLaSalle's stated desires of having a football field and a site for daily gym classes and may be a good compromise. I am trying to think into the future on this issue. There will be many additional housing units being built around river bringing many new residents who may have, or eventually have, children or they may simply need an area for adult sports leagues. Will this field be a gathering place for new residents that would benefit the city as a whole? Should we decrease greenspace on this island? Are their nearby sites that could achieve everyone's objectives? Some important questions. Finally, I would say that this issue has absolutely nothing to do with race as was suggested by one individual! I understand and appreciate the passion and caring of that individual for the students - it is commendable. However, this issue is a long-term planning decision for the city for a very important piece of its' downtown! To suggest anything otherwise insults the neighbors and decision makers. My hope is that the discussion will focus on 'best use' in the future. Sincerely, John Erwin Citywide Park Board Commissioner REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Jon Olson's Public Safety Initiative
Someone had posted here a few weeks ago asking about Park Commissioner Jon Olson's Public Safety Initiative. I have a copy and would be happy to e-mail it at your request. Connie Beckers - Folwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[mpls] Ward 3 Candidate Forum
Senate District 59 DFL invites you to attend a public question and answer forum for the candidates seeking the DFL endorsement for the Ward 3 City Council seat. Tuesday March 29th at 7:00pm at the Bottineau Recreation Center, 2000 NE 2nd ST Minneapolis. For more information please contact Liz Wielinski at 612-788-5688 Liz Wielinski Columbia Park SD59 DFL Treasurer REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Nicollet Island Stadium
md <[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes... snip... their proposal refers to a "Multi-use athletic facility" which suggests one or more buildings... Dean Here: Actually it doesn't suggest one or more buildings, it means that the field will be used for football, soccer, marching band, etc. > Terms such as "play fields" "athletic fields" and "stadium" all seem > to be used without any certainty (except for them) about exactly what > type of sports facility they envision, how many buildings there will > be and how much land it will devour. Dean Here: This is a high school football field with some bleachers and probably a small concession stand at best it is not a stadium for the Vikings. > Even though this "multi-use athletic facility" is wanted by a private > religious educational institution, public land and public money are > involved, so they should not be exempt from studies...or scrutiny. Dean here: Given the amount of bytes killed on this list serv, articles in the Strib, Skyway News, and local newspapers, lack of scrutiny is not an issue regarding DLS' proposal. ...Aren't most of the students non-residents who commute to the island anyway? Dean Here: So what? What's your point? The school's there, they need facilities. Dean Carlson East Harriet, Ward 10 REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Nicollet Island Stadium
Kudos to Annie for her good efforts on behalf of our parks. I, for one, laud your availability to your constituants and your candor. Thank you and best of luck in this year's election. We look forward to working with you into the future. Steven M Nelson Willard Hay http://citizenshipchronicles.blogspot.com/ http://minutemenworldwide.blogspot.com/ Get UP! Get OUT! & GET INVOLVED!!! Annie Young citywide Park Commissioner wrote It is my understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong) but if we break the covenant with the Met Council we have to pay them back the funds originally designated for public lands. And it is my understanding those funds are about $1.3 million. It is almost as repulsive to me to have to give money back as it is to sell park land. Also, remember that there are lots of other approvals DeLaSalle has to get before this grand scheme becomes reality. I am working hard at remaining neutral and feel I am in an exploratory, fact finding stage on both sides of this issue. As a community organizer by profession I must say Mr. Derus and his crew are doing a great job teaching the students and their parents the principles of organizing. REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
