Re: Format flowed equals no space in depth 1
On 15.09.14 09:29, Will Yardley wrote: Yes, but if you forget to do this, or manually mangle a line, you could end up generating non-compliant text. My point isn't that there aren't editors that are capable of generating the text correctly, but that it's difficult to mutt to know for sure that you have done so. On 15.09.14 14:48, Derek Martin wrote: You had to understand how it works, and configure your editor to do it right. Most users do not want to do that, and they should not have to. IIUC, the message is that those users not only do not care to take care with what they present to the reader, they just don't care. That has its price. Now I understand why Google was in such a hurry to develop and certify self-driving cars. Humanity's sense of entitlement to be too stupid to move from point A to point B without a supervising agency to exercise a Duty of Care is reaching critical mass. It amuses me when apparently capable adults blame the tool in their hands for their own occasional incompetence. Just 'fess up when you forgot to run the spell checker, to compensate for the fact that you can't spell worth a damn. is my philosophy. TBT, I have for some time now taken carelessly reflowed quoted text as a signal that a post is not worth reading, and so delete it on sight. To date I have not noticed any impact on my enjoyment of the thread in which they appear, and it saves time which can be spent on posts from the thoughtful majority who realise that their post must buy readership. Mind you, failure to capitalise sentence starts is another reliable Delete instead of reading trigger, I find. Not so much because the carelessness makes reading harder, as because those posts almost invariably lack substantial content. When seeking a technological fix for every human skill deficiency, I'm reminded of: Naeser's Law: You can make it foolproof, but you can't make it damnfoolproof. Erik -- Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.- Albert Einstein
Re: SMTP Authentication fails with 1.5.23 on Verizon
Hi again, I got the lock off my mail, so i am back up and running. I still cannot generate a muttdebug file. I have checked and recompiled my versions of mutt. I have started mutt with the -d4 parameter, but still nothing. Thanks again to everyone! Russ On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:08:43PM -0500, Russ Urquhart wrote: To all thank you. I discovered that I had not compiled with debug. I thought I had. Now that I recompiled try and run I keep getting an error couldn't lock and then my mail file. I saw this previously but I can't find how I did that again? Can someone please tell me how to set that so I can get mail.
Re: SMTP Authentication fails with 1.5.23 on Verizon
Hello Russ, Just to be clear, the following. What does ``mutt -v | grep DEBUG'' give? If the answer is +DEBUG, then ... From man mutt: ``If mutt was complied with +DEBUG log debugging output to ~/.muttdebug0. Level can range from 1-5 and effects verbosity. A value of 2 is recommended.'' Did you look for a .muttdebug0 file? If the file is not present, than you probably do not have rights to write to a file in that directory. Check your rights by running ``touch .muttdebug0'' Did you create a .muttdebug0 file? Have a look into /var/log/messages or any availabe log file! On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 07:54:19AM -0500, Russell Urquhart wrote: Hi again, I got the lock off my mail, so i am back up and running. I still cannot generate a muttdebug file. I have checked and recompiled my versions of mutt. I have started mutt with the -d4 parameter, but still nothing. Thanks again to everyone! Russ On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:08:43PM -0500, Russ Urquhart wrote: To all thank you. I discovered that I had not compiled with debug. I thought I had. Now that I recompiled try and run I keep getting an error couldn't lock and then my mail file. I saw this previously but I can't find how I did that again? Can someone please tell me how to set that so I can get mail. -- Met vriendelijke groeten, With kind regards, Mit freundlichen Gruessen, De jrus wah, Wiel * W.K. Offermans Powered by (__) \\\'',) \/ \ ^ .\._/_) www.FreeBSD.org
Re: Format flowed equals no space in depth 1
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 08:11:57PM +1000, Erik Christiansen wrote: On 15.09.14 09:29, Will Yardley wrote: Yes, but if you forget to do this, or manually mangle a line, you could end up generating non-compliant text. My point isn't that there aren't editors that are capable of generating the text correctly, but that it's difficult to mutt to know for sure that you have done so. On 15.09.14 14:48, Derek Martin wrote: You had to understand how it works, and configure your editor to do it right. Most users do not want to do that, and they should not have to. IIUC, the message is that those users not only do not care to take care with what they present to the reader, they just don't care. That has its price. [...] It amuses me when apparently capable adults blame the tool in their hands for their own occasional incompetence. I don't think that not understanding rfc2646 and implementing it precisely is really something that humans are well suited for. I've looked through it and read it, and I'm sure I still couldn't craft a compliant message (including trailing spaces in the right place, space-stuffing certain lines, etc.). w
Re: Format flowed equals no space in depth 1
=== Lurk-Mode OFF === Duck and cover! === Lurk-Mode ON === On 2014/9/15 10:09 AM, Erik Christiansen wrote: On 14.09.14 16:29, Will Yardley wrote: The problem, though, is that doing so in a tool like mutt where the editor is (by design) completely divorced from the MUA does make it a lot more difficult to properly generate flowed text. Nope, it works fine for me, without effort of any significance. The problem of scrambling standard email quoting when reflowing arises only when a poster uses an incompetent editor to compose a reply. When I reply in-line to a post, and break a quoted paragraph before a sentence, and the paragraph rump needs reflowing, then the ordinary gq} command respects the quoting, just as insert automatically prepends to the new line. That's with Vim as Mutt's editor. Doubtless Emacs can do the same. (And with gq} mapped to ^W, I just need to think wrap, rather than gobbeldygook.) OK, I haven't tried Vim's continuously active flowed text mode, so cannot report on how that handles quoting, but then I don't see the point. Erik
Re: Format flowed equals no space in depth 1
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 08:11:57PM +1000, Erik Christiansen wrote: On 15.09.14 14:48, Derek Martin wrote: You had to understand how it works, and configure your editor to do it right. Most users do not want to do that, and they should not have to. IIUC, the message is that those users not only do not care to take care with what they present to the reader, they just don't care. That has its price. No, WRONG WRONG WRONG. Why aren't all construction workers also competent architects or engineers? It should not be a requirement to understand the science behind how a tool works, to use it effectively. That's a large part of the point of having a tool in the first place. The message is that not everyone has time to become an expert in how e-mail works fundamentally, and not everyone should. In fact, just about no one should. This is what specialization is all about, and like it or not our society has become extremely specialized. Specialization is what enables efficiency. E-mail is a tool to enable people to collaborate; having to take time to understand the tool distracts (and detracts) from the focus--the collaboration--which defeats the purpose of having the tool. The main problem with Mutt is that it requires very specialized knowledge to use it well, and A LOT of it. This is counter to how our society works, and is extremely bad for efficiency. [Once set up to your liking, Mutt makes up for this in other ways, but it's often very hard to make a good argument that it's better than some other client that just does it all for you, properly, without you having to think much about it.] Most importantly, there are ZERO technological challenges preventing some person who does understand how all this formatting stuff works to program it once so that you don't need to understand how it works. This is much, much better for everyone. Less to maintain, and the problem needs to be solved only once (or once per mail client), instead of once by every person who uses the client. -- Derek D. Martinhttp://www.pizzashack.org/ GPG Key ID: 0xDFBEAD02 -=-=-=-=- This message is posted from an invalid address. Replying to it will result in undeliverable mail due to spam prevention. Sorry for the inconvenience. pgp27MJiz4jNx.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Format flowed equals no space in depth 1
The message is that not everyone has time to become an expert in how e-mail works fundamentally, and not everyone should. In fact, just about no one should. This is what specialization is all about, and like it or not our society has become extremely specialized. No, I'm sorry, the specialization idea does not float. E-mail has become as popular as car driving. I agree you don't need to know mechanics nor combustion physics to operate a car. Nonetheless you must invest tens of hours to learn how to drive it properly, many of them only to allow fluid interactions with other drivers, as we all share roads; red lights, yield signs, school buses and all. Many people will spend many more hours dealing with e-mail than at the wheel but hey, they can get away with half-garbage e-mails so why should they bother? I mean, what's *so* hard about spending 10 hours once to learn to properly use something that you'll enjoy every day for the rest of your life? -- --|-- | Patrice Levesque http://ptaff.ca/ mutt.wa...@ptaff.ca | --|-- -- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: SMTP Authentication fails with 1.5.23 on Verizon
Hi Willy, I got the +DEBUG when i ran that command. When i went to my ~ directory, and did the touch command, nothing happened. I too thought i might not have permission, but i have written things to this directory. Does mutt have to be chmod ed to do this? I execute the program, but have never changed its permissions. Thanks, Russ On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 04:54:24PM +0200, Willy Offermans wrote: Hello Russ, Just to be clear, the following. What does ``mutt -v | grep DEBUG'' give? If the answer is +DEBUG, then ... From man mutt: ``If mutt was complied with +DEBUG log debugging output to ~/.muttdebug0. Level can range from 1-5 and effects verbosity. A value of 2 is recommended.'' Did you look for a .muttdebug0 file? If the file is not present, than you probably do not have rights to write to a file in that directory. Check your rights by running ``touch .muttdebug0'' Did you create a .muttdebug0 file? Have a look into /var/log/messages or any availabe log file!
