Re: OT: Default forced on MySQL;
On Friday 09 Nov 2001 03:36, DownloadFAST.com wrote: Mr. Bobic, [snip] The only thing that matters is that every time you respond on the list, you are only making a fool of yourself in the eyes of the many people who are lurking. They can see right thru your motives in sending this post below. LOL. So much for no personal attacks that you called for. At least you're being consistent, I suppose. As for growing up, the things that one tends to learn when they grow up is that life is about being reasonable and about compromise. Taking on the entire MySQL (or any established open source development effort) with the I want this feature, and I want it now, because I _know_ it must be simple to implement even though I haven't exactly looked at what is involved attitude isn't necessarily a compromising nor reasonable thing to do, in terms of time or effort. Considering the features you want (IIRC you only mentioned the default values in tables) - why don't you try PostgreSQL instead? I have said it before and I'll say it again - use the product that works best for YOUR particular application. There are at least 5 free open source SQL DBMSes (MySQL, PostgreSQL, SAP, Interbase, MiniSQL). Before you hopelessly start trying to make one into another, you may find that a more rewarding exercise in terms of your time is to just use the one that is better geared toward your target application. That would at least show that you have studied the problems in your application and done the relevant homework. Complacency, resistance to learning, just wanting a quick patch and the I'm OK, you are not OK attitude don't do much for the display of how serious you are being (or trying to be). The gauntlet has been thrown by you, and the response was your invitation to join the development effort (see Arjen's post on the list). The whole point of open source development is that if you don't like what something is like, you can just go and do it better. It's the ultimate put-up or shut-up competitive environment. You lead, you follow, or you get out of the way. To lead, you need followers that believe you are fit to do so. To follow, you need to find a leader you approve of and that approves of you. Getting out of the way is the easiest, but also the least rewarding action to take. Humble regards. Gordan - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: OT: Default forced on MySQL;
On Friday 09 Nov 2001 12:11, DownloadFAST.com wrote: Considering the features you want (IIRC you only mentioned the default values in tables) - why don't you try PostgreSQL instead? My understanding is it is much slower. That is what I am hoping for. Or rather, I am hoping that MySQL proves to be signifficantly faster, as that is the main reason for the migrtion I am testing at the moment. But the more important thing that has been learned here, is to find out what kind of people are in the community. Because one can learn a lot about the future direction and success based on the people who are involved. Indeed. All the MySQL developers who bothered responding to this thread completely stayed out of the somewhat heated discussion that we have recently been having. IMHO, that indicates a great amount of self-control and patience - all of which speak only the best for the MySQL development effort. And what I learned is that some (I don't know what % yet) are very dogmatic, closed-minded, intolerant, rude, unprofessional, and down right blood thirsty. Not the kind of people I would want to contribute to or be a part of. I think you may be (although I am not sure what particular responses have made you form that opinion) mistaking in your identification of the actual developers. As I am quite happy to confess, I am not a developer/contributor to the MySQL project - I just use it. I just wasn't happy with the way you attacked them, for no (IMHO) particularly good reason. This is not specifically related to any particular development effort. So, if you have a disagreement with my opinion, it would be a good idea not to make the mistake of assuming that is how the actual developers/contributors feel as well. I am sure it wasn't necessary for me to point this out, but I don't want my argument with you to be responsible for any sort of grudge against any of the hard working MySQL developers. And I also learned that MySQL has a license which says we can take their great work, and basically resell it and use it to make a profit for ourselves, as long as we give back any source code changes. Indeed - a growing number of companies are trying to do this sort of thing with other GPLed developments. In 3.23 they basically stabilized all the major issues for a typical low-end web database. So really the thing is there for the taking, if one wanted to just focus on a small set of goals. It may not be me, but someone else my have already started on that business opportunity. The problem is - what happnes when/if you start needing extra features that are not easy to just patch in? Personally, I would handle such minor lack of features in a database at the application level. When it comes to default values, I know I could handle that in just about all of my applications by fairly minor modifications to my code. In fact, that may well be what I will have to do to some extent when porting from PostgreSQL to MySQL. If nothing else, it seems like a much easier and quicker fix to the problem (or at least it is when your code is tidy) than insisting that a new feature be implemented, especially if it can be handled at the application level. In the end, I think we have come full circle here. The only way to really protect your investment is to take over all of the software development, and have a definite say in what happens. It just seems a little to excessive to fork off the whole project, when a patch to either MySQL or your application may well be the far less time consuming option... I really did not want to learn the source. I can certainly relate to that. But the alternatives often come to the rescue in that case. I have too many other things to do. But if I have to learn the source to protect my investment, then I might as well do action and not beg people who I do not like. That is a reasonable point, even if it may not be the most efficient (for want of better word) way do handle the problem. A slightly more cooperative attitude would have been much more likely to produce better results with less effort. The best way to erase all this noise and measure who is smarter, is in the competitive arena. Open source arena is both cooperative and competitive - that is why it works. Good luck with your forking efforts. Regards. Gordan - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: Re: OT: Default forced on MySQL;
On Friday 09 Nov 2001 12:08, you wrote: MySQL On Friday 09 Nov 2001 11:37, you wrote: Note on what is going on here... The paragraph below was from a private email I sent to Gordon. And now Gordon just responded to it on the public list. Gordon, I was strongly hinting to you in private that it was time to stop now. Can you please stop?? My apologies for my rude behaviour. It was not my deliberate intention to mis-address the reply. :-( I agree with what you say here - let's stop this thread. Regards. Gordan - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: OT: Default forced on MySQL;
DownloadFAST.com wrote: [...] why don't you try PostgreSQL instead? My understanding is it is much slower. No kidding? Why don't you fork the PostGreSQL codebase and apply your special assembly talents to speed it up by 50% or even 60%? - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: OT: Default forced on MySQL;
No kidding? Why don't you fork the PostGreSQL codebase and apply your special assembly talents to speed it up by 50% or even 60%? If you're willing to pay for quality, Oracle is an obvious choice. It's fast, it has all the features, there are numerous advanced tools to manage and develop your systems. MySQL is targeted for some needs, to which it answers very well, Postgres has some great strengh for which it has to sacrifice (which is why MySQL choose not to support some features), MSQL has heuh, hum, hmm, oh yes, the micosoft logo of quality and security. And there's Oracle. I don't see what's the dilema. Go for Oracle. With the advanced need you have for your advanced coding, I feel you will rapidly need some other critical features that MySQL lacks. And even if it is within your means to remove all the MySQL's limtations that you will encounter, I think you will get a greater return by developing more great products using Oracle than to waste precious coding time (which would mean less other great products you can make). Also, since your products wil probably be original and appealing, you will end up partner with Oracle on some of your products. Oracle has a great dynamic team (and the best campus) and they will be more willing than work with you in bringing your products to market. Imagine if you made Coolpage (and your other future products like the db/site maker) with an Oracle sponsorship, you will easily be able to sell your site makers to Oracle customers, and you will be able to charge much much much more than to MySQL users, who prefer to use open source software, even if it means more headach. It pains me to advice you against helping MySQL, especially with all you plan to do for it, but the most profitable business model for you would be to dedicate yourself to your products instead of the DB, and then show a beta to Oracle who I am sure will want to partner with you in distributing them. At the end, it woud be much more $$$ in your pocket for less work. Oracle is a powerful company with a great product. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: OT: Default forced on MySQL;
I just got back in from a nice day in the park with my kids and my parents. All I can say to defend myself is that I'm sorry I did not bow to you thy King. And I am sorry if I have my own opinions and personality. I will try to conform asap to Big Brother's wishes. And I am sorry that my apologies were not humiliating enough for you. And if that is not enough, then please continue to extract blood... ...in the meantime, I will continue where it really matters. Good luck to all. And good luck to MySQL. It is a great tool. Thanks for giving me the chance in my last email to set the record straight on my record. The archives will speak for themselves. At 04:18 PM 11/8/2001 +, you wrote: On Thursday 08 Nov 2001 14:53, DownloadFAST.com wrote: First of all, I am going to state right now that I have not witnessed this discussion first hand (probably a good thing, too). The comments here reffer to what you said in your email, and what can be found in the archives. Personally, I thought this was definitely the most amusing thread in recent memory... It wasn't particularly amusing to me. Especially when one of you who disagrees with me, decided to add my email to a bunch of adult spam lists. Do you have any evidence to corroborate this? If so I'm impressed. Please, tell us what your sources are - maybe we can use the information to reduce the amount of spam going around. Assuming (and you should know what assume does) in this particular instance is actually a very well known logical error: Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. (IIR my Latin correctly) It means: After it, therefore because of it. From a purely logical point of view, that argument doesn't make sense. IMHO, it is far more likely that your email address has been harvested by a mail bot. Accusing people without evidence in a public forum, especially after claiming seriousness on your own part is BAD practice, and not at all good for credibility. MySQL just better hope that I continue to love the product so much, that I do not post this thread for other corporations considering the professionalism of the community. That sounds threatening. Let's not start sabre-rattling here. You might just loose credibility. Remember your list is linked from the main MySQL.com web site, and I think that means you need to be cautious with how you swoop done on new people who come here representing their corporation. In fact, they are lurking and they are not impressed, given the supportive email I received privately. Representing in what way? There are good, helpful and friendly ways. There are also others that involve shoving your (not necessarily your corporation's) views (right or wrong, let's not go into it) down other people's throats. Speaking out against open source products by generalising, ESPECIALLY on a mailing list for an open-source product (if there is any truth in what you quoted somebody to have said) is asking for trouble. Especially after criticising the documentation that you obviously haven't read properly. I make oversights myself, as far as documentation reading goes. But at least I don't go in head-long convinced that I'm 100% right. I think what you are demonstrating quite effectively is that if someone does not agree with the standard line of thinking in the group, then they will be chastized by the group. I have had several people from the list email me privately and give me their support. Frankly, after having just read through the archives, I am absolutely stunned with the patience some people, especially Sinisa have shown you, in face of blatant provocation verging on abuse. Some of your comments, e.g. There are few poeple here trying to lock out any outsider with a controversial opinion. verge on paranoid. Have you looked at the MySQL source code? From your comments, I am pretty sure you haven't. And yet you feel you know enough about it to say that a modification is simple. You don't know enough to make that call. Sinisa does. Get over it. If you think you are that good, then go and make a patch and submit it for inclusion in the source! I hate to break this to you, but that's the way open-source software development is supposed to work. There is a not-so-fine line between constructive criticism and abuse. IMHO, you have crossed it. Then you go on to say: Sure there are those people trying to use MySQL to replace Oracle, but IMO they should be the ones to have caveats, not the majority. Oracle, MySQL, PostgreSQL, etc. are all good products - and they are all good at different things. It all boils down to cost effectiveness and performance. If Oracle is good for you, and you can afford it - go for it. The whole point of there being multiple products is that you can pick the one the most closely matches your requirements. MySQL documentation has a very nicely reasoned PostgreSQL vs. MySQL section. After having read it, at least I know that MySQL is developed by
