Re: command line open source ARRRGGGGGG!!!!!!
It is tough for those who have never typed a command. It is analogous to learning to drive a standard transmission - it is very easy to transfer to an automatic but not visa versa. My first computer was an 8088 with a 4o meg harddrive, DOS 5.2 with Turbo C as my compiler. Switching to Unix was fairly straight forward. Switching to a GUI was also straight forward. But - I must say that when I started installing server software on my own, I read the manuals and readme files before trying anything. My first MySQL installation was on Windows and the readme file was very clear. I also downloaded the MySQL manual and read it very closely before beginning the install. I did have to send a few emails to the group but on the whole the process was fairly painless. My advise for Windows users is to learn about the MSDOS prompt and how to configure it. For example, what is the "path", what is a batch file, what is a redirect (<) to help with automation of creating new tables etc. That is my $0.02 CAD worth. Christopher R. Jones, P.Eng. 14 Oneida Avenue Toronto, Ontario M5J 2E3 Tel. 416 203-7465 Fax. 416 203-8249 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To unsubscribe, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: command line open source ARRRGGGGGG!!!!!!
At 23:07 -0700 2001/09/06, Chadrick Mahaffey wrote: >I realize that I'm going to be in the minority here but I have to say it. >Open source would go much farther if they had self explanatory GUIs and had >basic pre-setup apps that were ready for the average user to use. I program >in Java and I feel the same about the JDK Sun produces. I use JCreator >because it has an easy to follow GUI interface. Most open source apps I have >attempted to use have some of the worse documentation around. The writers >assume so much about the users. OK - call me inept, stupid, or whatever but >I had to say it. > >Thanks, >THE chad Hi Chad, I feel your pain... :> I come from a predominately GUI environment, too. But, if you've gotten this far, I doubt very much that you're stupid -- just inexperienced with this type of app and these methods. MySQL actually has very good documentation; you're just looking in the wrong area. Try the Windows-specific installation instructions instead of the Unix ones. Granted, working at the command-line can be daunting at first with all those cryptic and arcane instructions, *but* it's also very powerful; you can accomplish difficult things very quickly once you're used to it. (Definitely true in Unix, I'm unsure about Windows.) Both GUIs and the command-line have their place, and their strengths and weaknesses. I wouldn't want to do without either. I learned 'command-line stuff' on Sun Solaris and Linux. What a bitch it was the first time I installed one of those boxes from scratch (and then learned how to compile and build software). But, ya know, even though it may (initially) be a lot of difficult work to configure and set one up, there's a big pay-back. Once it's done, you've got a nearly bulletproof, rock-solid, absolutely dependable computer. My Sun boxes simply *never* crash. Hell, I'd be frustrated and pulling my hair, too, if I had to sit down and attempt an install on Windows. I've never done it, so it'd be a completely new, confusing, and seemingly idiotic procedure for me. But I'm pretty sure I'd eventually get through it. :> So dive in, get your hands dirty, read lots, and it'll start to make sense pretty quickly. Good luck. May the foo be with you. :> /Rob ~ Robert Alexander~~ Programmer/Analyst/DBA/Admin WWW Database Applications~~http://www.ra1.net Web Software and Hosting ~~ http://www.workmate.ca - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To unsubscribe, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Fw: command line open source ARRRGGGGGG!!!!!!
- Original Message - From: "Colm Brazel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 4:33 PM Subject: Re: command line open source ARRRGG!! > > Open source software is written by technical people. They do it because > > they enjoy it. Most of them don't get paid for it. > > > > Many technical people don't enjoy writing documentation at all, and > > _very_ few enjoy writing documentation at the "complete newbie" level. > > Hi, > > The maxim should be that no one should mind a difficult concept well > explained. But everybody should mind > a simple concept made difficult because it is poorly explained. A poor > explanation is one that is not intelligible > by a newbie not because it is difficult, but because it is poorly explained > in terms easily understood by a newbie. > > Colm > > Colm Brazel (MA) > CB Publications > www.cbweb.net > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Paul D. Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Chadrick Mahaffey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "mysql" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 2:50 PM > Subject: Re: command line open source ARRRGG!! > > > > %% Chadrick Mahaffey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > cm> How do I start the server and create a database in plain English. > I'm not > > cm> familiar with: > > cm> SECTION 4.16 - Documentation > > > > shell> ./scripts/mysql_install_db > > shell> cd mysql_installation_directory > > shell> ./bin/safe_mysqld --user=mysql & > > > > shell> cd mysql_installation_directory > > shell> ./bin/mysql_install_db > > shell> ./bin/safe_mysqld --user=mysql & > > > > cm> what does all this mean? > > > > These are the commands and instructions for installing MySQL on a UNIX > > box. They are UNIX shell commands, not Windows DOS commands. > > > > You need to find the commands and instructions for installing MySQL on a > > Windows box, if that's what you are using. > > > > cm> Open source would go much farther if they had self explanatory > > cm> GUIs and had basic pre-setup apps that were ready for the average > > cm> user to use. I program in Java and I feel the same about the JDK > > cm> Sun produces. I use JCreator because it has an easy to follow GUI > > cm> interface. Most open source apps I have attempted to use have some > > cm> of the worse documentation around. The writers assume so much > > cm> about the users. OK - call me inept, stupid, or whatever but I had > > cm> to say it. > > > > Open source software is written by technical people. They do it because > > they enjoy it. Most of them don't get paid for it. > > > > Many technical people don't enjoy writing documentation at all, and > > _very_ few enjoy writing documentation at the "complete newbie" level. > > If they don't enjoy it, they aren't going to do it for fun. If someone > > who _did_ enjoy it were to volunteer to help, well, that would be great. > > > > Further, you are working on a Windows platform. Microsoft has, at > > almost every turn, expressed its deep-seated hostility for Open Source > > software of all kinds, and even the very idea of OS software. Also, > > many developers, esp. those doing OS software which has a very > > UNIX-based ancestry, don't _like_ working on Windows, as they don't > > think it's a good platform either to use or develop on. So, naturally > > enough you won't find all that many Open Source developers who are very > > interested in expending a lot of effort to keep people who use Windows > > happy. They don't want to _encourage_ people to use an environment that > > is so hostile to the things they like to do, and they don't like using > > Windows themselves. So, I doubt you'll see a big effort expended on the > > part of OS developers to make the Windows-specific parts of their > > software simpler. > > > > There are, obviously, some well-known exceptions like the > > StarOffice/OpenOffice folks, Emacs, Apache, etc. who do spend a lot of > > effort trying to get Windows versions easier to use and install. > > > > > > If you wanted to buy a support license for MySQL, I'm sure they'd help > > you get it installed properly. If you want to use the free version and > > you want to use it
Re: command line open source ARRRGGGGGG!!!!!!
I wanted to put in my 2 cents. Access is not an RDBMS.. It is a single user - small user, and frequent fix type system. I have never worked on a real database system that does not have a command line interface. It seems fearsome at first, but it's actually easy. SQL Server do doubt has very nice GUI tools, but having used that DB a bit, [as a user] I am not very impressed. > > I know these are pathetic questions to most of you so please have patience > with a Windows user... > what is "shell>"? > what is the "./"? > is "mysql_installation_directory" supposed to be replaced with my > installation dir? On of the afore mentioned e-mails already answered most of this, but IU wanted to add some significance about the './' and why you need it and you DON'T need '.\' on a dos/windows systems. Any file in a unix environment can be marked executable. That does not mean it will run but any file can. Unix/Posix shells [you could related cmd.exe, or command.com to a shell] rely on the PATH variable to tell them where to run programs from. No Unix has './' [or the local directory] in the path, because it would present a small security risk when running programs, especially for the root user. Hence, if you want to run a program from a specific location that is _not_ in the PATH, you need to type in the relative, or the full path to the program. In this case, change to the directory where you find the program, and type: './progname' > > I realize that I'm going to be in the minority here but I have to say it. > Open source would go much farther if they had self explanatory GUIs and had > basic pre-setup apps that were ready for the average user to use. I program > in Java and I feel the same about the JDK Sun produces. I use JCreator > because it has an easy to follow GUI interface. Most open source apps I > have attempted to use have some of the worse documentation around. The > writers assume so much about the users. OK - call me inept, stupid, or > whatever but I had to say it. I don't know what you've been using, but I have used a TON of open source, and most of it has good documentation. Partly because most opensource programmers think that you might want to understand the underlying process that the computer is going through in order to complete your requests, run the program, etc. Windows silently teaches you something else - using the pretty eye candy. You are gently brought in and taught one way of thinking and relating to your computer. But if you could step back and look at the skills necessary to run a GUI vs. use a command prompt , one is not actually more complicated than the other. [And you lose a lot of flexibility with a GUI]. Save one problem, people tend towards visual things, it's natural, and so they seem to fear CLI more than GUI. Oh, and on a more personal note, most people who have huge issues with open-source apps don't completly RTFM. They are impatient, frustrated and want all this stuff to work in 30 seconds otherwords is MUST be crap. However, 15 minutes of patient reading will often alleviate those issues. =P. Hope you get this figured out to your comfort. MySQL may take a little bit of extra effort to administrate, [esp. at first] but it is vastly superior to Access, and MUCH MUCH cheaper than SQL Server 7, or whatever. Also, it boasts one HUGE advantage over SQL server: You are not tied to a single proprietary platform =). - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To unsubscribe, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: command line open source ARRRGGGGGG!!!!!!
%% Chadrick Mahaffey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: cm> How do I start the server and create a database in plain English. I'm not cm> familiar with: cm> SECTION 4.16 - Documentation shell> ./scripts/mysql_install_db shell> cd mysql_installation_directory shell> ./bin/safe_mysqld --user=mysql & shell> cd mysql_installation_directory shell> ./bin/mysql_install_db shell> ./bin/safe_mysqld --user=mysql & cm> what does all this mean? These are the commands and instructions for installing MySQL on a UNIX box. They are UNIX shell commands, not Windows DOS commands. You need to find the commands and instructions for installing MySQL on a Windows box, if that's what you are using. cm> Open source would go much farther if they had self explanatory cm> GUIs and had basic pre-setup apps that were ready for the average cm> user to use. I program in Java and I feel the same about the JDK cm> Sun produces. I use JCreator because it has an easy to follow GUI cm> interface. Most open source apps I have attempted to use have some cm> of the worse documentation around. The writers assume so much cm> about the users. OK - call me inept, stupid, or whatever but I had cm> to say it. Open source software is written by technical people. They do it because they enjoy it. Most of them don't get paid for it. Many technical people don't enjoy writing documentation at all, and _very_ few enjoy writing documentation at the "complete newbie" level. If they don't enjoy it, they aren't going to do it for fun. If someone who _did_ enjoy it were to volunteer to help, well, that would be great. Further, you are working on a Windows platform. Microsoft has, at almost every turn, expressed its deep-seated hostility for Open Source software of all kinds, and even the very idea of OS software. Also, many developers, esp. those doing OS software which has a very UNIX-based ancestry, don't _like_ working on Windows, as they don't think it's a good platform either to use or develop on. So, naturally enough you won't find all that many Open Source developers who are very interested in expending a lot of effort to keep people who use Windows happy. They don't want to _encourage_ people to use an environment that is so hostile to the things they like to do, and they don't like using Windows themselves. So, I doubt you'll see a big effort expended on the part of OS developers to make the Windows-specific parts of their software simpler. There are, obviously, some well-known exceptions like the StarOffice/OpenOffice folks, Emacs, Apache, etc. who do spend a lot of effort trying to get Windows versions easier to use and install. If you wanted to buy a support license for MySQL, I'm sure they'd help you get it installed properly. If you want to use the free version and you want to use it on Windows, then, for better or for worse, you're going to have to get used to life on a second-tier platform :(. -- --- Paul D. Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> HASMAT--HA Software Mthds & Tools "Please remain calm...I may be mad, but I am a professional." --Mad Scientist --- These are my opinions---Nortel Networks takes no responsibility for them. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To unsubscribe, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: command line open source ARRRGGGGGG!!!!!!
Chadrick Mahaffey wrote: >what does all this mean? I tried to type this in my command console changin >/ to \ and I don't understand what is happening. I get all kinds of errors. It looks to me that you're trying to use the Unix install notes - don't! Refer to section 2.1.2 in the excellent manual, (worth downloading so you've a local copy). >Open source would go much farther if they had self explanatory GUIs and had >basic pre-setup apps that were ready for the average user to use. Why? Maybe I'm really offbeam, but I'd suggest that MySQL is more of a server product than one which should reside on the desktop. Further, why then saddle the server admin with a GUI. In my experience even the best GUI is not as flexible as a half-decent command line installer. A GUI is fine if you've to install on just your PC, but there's no way I'd be happy if I was doing multiple installs - at least with the command line you can make a small (one-line?) batch file to do the job on however many systems you have. I could be mean and turn this on it's head - if you want a GUI, do it yourself and then contribute it back! >Most open source apps I have attempted to use have some of the worse documentation around. The writers >assume so much about the users. You've been very unlucky then. Nearly all the major apps, (and most of the smaller ones), have excellent docs, simply because the vocal user community wouldn't let them away with anything else! (If you don't like a bit in the manual rewrite it and submit it back ?) That said, I will agree slightly in that some of the app docs are very Unix-centric (not MySQL's), and I personally find the Apache manual a bit hard to use. For your core apps it's probably worth getting one of the 3rd party books, (the MySQL one is very good indeed). >OK - call me inept, stupid, or whatever but I had to say it. Fair enough - you're stupid! ;-) Quote for you "real stupidity is quite rare, (except in politicians where it seems to be a qualification), and what is generally perceived as 'stupidity' is nothing more than inexperience", can't remember who to attribute this to, but it seems pretty apposite. As to MySQL I'm just past the "caveman" stage myself. Keep in there and it'll all fall into place, (with a bit of help from this mailing list), and then who knows? Regards Bob Cross - writing for myself in this instance * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or protected by other legal rules. It does not constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer, nor shall it form any part of a legally binding contract. If you have received this communication in error, please let us know by reply then destroy it. You should not use, print, copy the message or disclose its contents to anyone. E-mail is subject to possible data corruption, is not secure, and its content does not necessarily represent the opinion of this Company. No representation or warranty is made as to the accuracy or completeness of the information and no liability can be accepted for any loss arising from its use. This e-mail and any attachments are not guaranteed to be free from so-called computer viruses and it is recommended that you check for such viruses before down-loading it to your computer equipment. This Company has no control over other websites to which there may be hypertext links and no liability can be accepted in relation to those sites. Scottish & Newcastle plc Registered in Scotland, Registered Number 16288 Registered Office: 33, Ellersly Road, Edinburgh, EH12 6HX * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To unsubscribe, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: command line open source ARRRGGGGGG!!!!!!
On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 11:07:25PM -0700, Chadrick Mahaffey wrote: [...] > shell> cd mysql_installation_directory > shell> ./bin/mysql_install_db > shell> ./bin/safe_mysqld --user=mysql & > > what does all this mean? I tried to type this in my command console changing > / to \ and I don't understand what is happening. I get all kinds of errors. > > I know these are pathetic questions to most of you so please have patience > with a Windows user... > what is "shell>"? > what is the "./"? > is "mysql_installation_directory" supposed to be replaced with my > installation dir? These are the UNIX install instructions. Try the Windows install instructions (section 2.1.2 in the MySQL manual). > I realize that I'm going to be in the minority here but I have to say it. > Open source would go much farther if they had self explanatory GUIs and had > basic pre-setup apps that were ready for the average user to use. I program > in Java and I feel the same about the JDK Sun produces. I use JCreator > because it has an easy to follow GUI interface. Most open source apps I have > attempted to use have some of the worse documentation around. The writers > assume so much about the users. OK - call me inept, stupid, or whatever but > I had to say it. I can say the same things are wrong with GUI based proprietary software for all the same reasons. What you should instead point out is that you have an entirely different and incompatible set of problem solving skills. Anecdote: For example, I tried installing Windows for the first time on my home machine the other day and just couldn't set up a working system. I had to answer obscure questions, hunt down an endless number of driver disks, and when it was finally done Windows wouldn't even start up properly, citing that it was missing numerous device drivers and that it was running in an ugly degraded 'Safe Mode'. I poked around aimlessly for a few hours until I gave up and installed a more user friendly OS. I was amazed at how hard it was for me to install, considering that I can put together Linux systems completely from scratch. YMMV. --- Michael Bacarella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Technical Staff / System Development, New York Connect.Net, Ltd. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To unsubscribe, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: command line open source ARRRGGGGGG!!!!!!
> I know these are pathetic questions to most of you so please have patience > with a Windows user... Hehe, welcome to the world of the command line... > what is "shell>"? In windows world, this is the 'MS-DOS Prompt'. Will probably look like this to you: C:\> In unix, it is typically something like this: user@host:~/> But can be anything, because unix has many types of prompts to choose from sh, bash, csh, korn to name a few ). > what is the "./"? This is shorthand for the current directory. In the dos prompt, use ".\" > is "mysql_installation_directory" supposed to be replaced with my > installation dir? Yes. > I realize that I'm going to be in the minority here but I have to say it. > Open source would go much farther if they had self explanatory GUIs and had > basic pre-setup apps that were ready for the average user to use. I program > in Java and I feel the same about the JDK Sun produces. I use JCreator > because it has an easy to follow GUI interface. Most open source apps I have > attempted to use have some of the worse documentation around. The writers > assume so much about the users. OK - call me inept, stupid, or whatever but > I had to say it. True. But mysql's user mailing list is typically _very_ helpful. hope this helps, dpk - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To unsubscribe, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: command line open source ARRRGGGGGG!!!!!!
On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Chadrick Mahaffey wrote: > I realize that I'm going to be in the minority here but I have to say it. > Open source would go much farther if they had self explanatory GUIs and had > basic pre-setup apps that were ready for the average user to use. Perhaps your company should be paying these mysql programmers to develop such an installation program. Personally I found that the windows installation was just as easy the last time I tried it but you should really be posting the output of the error messages if you are having trouble so we can see what kind of problems you are having. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To unsubscribe, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
command line open source ARRRGGGGGG!!!!!!
Sorry - had to get that out of my system before I begin. I just downloaded the latest MySQL and installed it in my f:\mysql dir on my windows machine. I read the documentation and realize that I am lost even before I get started. Believe me I don't want to be... I have been an MS Access user for quite some time and really haven't had much problem with it until I wanted a type 4 jdbc driver. Hence the switch to MySQL. How do I start the server and create a database in plain English. I'm not familiar with: SECTION 4.16 - Documentation shell> ./scripts/mysql_install_db shell> cd mysql_installation_directory shell> ./bin/safe_mysqld --user=mysql & shell> cd mysql_installation_directory shell> ./bin/mysql_install_db shell> ./bin/safe_mysqld --user=mysql & what does all this mean? I tried to type this in my command console changing / to \ and I don't understand what is happening. I get all kinds of errors. I know these are pathetic questions to most of you so please have patience with a Windows user... what is "shell>"? what is the "./"? is "mysql_installation_directory" supposed to be replaced with my installation dir? I realize that I'm going to be in the minority here but I have to say it. Open source would go much farther if they had self explanatory GUIs and had basic pre-setup apps that were ready for the average user to use. I program in Java and I feel the same about the JDK Sun produces. I use JCreator because it has an easy to follow GUI interface. Most open source apps I have attempted to use have some of the worse documentation around. The writers assume so much about the users. OK - call me inept, stupid, or whatever but I had to say it. Thanks, THE chad - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To unsubscribe, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
