Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
why in the world would anyone want to purchase dsl from a private reseller when i can get 4mb down 384 up from comcast for $25? because customer support and clue are worth another $25+/mo to me and probably to anyone else who relys on their connectivity. randy
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
Last mile usage? May be, but it is not supported by many consumer level firewalls/NAT's/DSL devices, cheap switches and so on. I agree, it is most likely usage for it (multicast) - last mile and 'last patch' -:). - Original Message - From: Frank Coluccio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Ross Hosman' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Joe Loiacono' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Alexei Roudnev' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 5:41 AM Subject: Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years? Alexei Roudnev wrote: What I can't understand is why multicast hasn't just gone gangbusters into use yet. I see it as a really pent-up capability that, in light of Because multicast standards was written by academic idiots. -:) Very difficult to use and full of unused features. (Do not believe? Read RSVP protocol - not exactly multicast but not far away from it). And because multicast protocols (unfortunately) are not easy to implement. It excuse this standards and their authors. I can predict one more 'skype' like company, with really robust protocol, catching multicast market. Something like 'peer to peer multicast' -:). Don't be too quick to assess the usage and value of multicast in last mile access networks, where it has found far greater success than over the Internet proper across the WAN. IP- and ATM- based multicast has worked very well for the past five years in telco VDSL (check out Next Level's implementations during the late nineties), and now in all manner of xDSL implementations, as well as a number of cable operator service applications in the digital region of their spectrum, for program video delivery to homes. Check it out. http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/cc/so/neso/dsso/global/madsl_wp.htm Frank A. Coluccio DTI Consulting Inc. On Fri May 13 2:29 , Alexei Roudnev sent: So imagine a residential area all pulling digital video over wireless. Sound familiar? Ironically close to TV! (yet so different) What I can't understand is why multicast hasn't just gone gangbusters into use yet. I see it as a really pent-up capability that, in light of Because multicast standards was written by academic idiots. -:) Very difficult to use and full of unused features. (Do not believe? Read RSVP protocol - not exactly multicast but not far away from it). And because multicast protocols (unfortunately) are not easy to implement. It excuse this standards and their authors. I can predict one more 'skype' like company, with really robust protocol, catching multicast market. Something like 'peer to peer multicast' -:). broadband video, etc., is just going to have to break wide open soon. Joe Ross Hosman [EMAIL PROTECTED], Fred Heutte [EMAIL PROTECTED] @yahoo.com cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: Subject: Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years? owner-nanog 05/12/2005 02:16 PM Not pointing any fingers but many of you think these small ISP's are just going to die off instead of adapt. Wireless is becoming a better and more reliable technology that in the future will be able to provide faster service then FTTH. I know of atleast one small ISP in Michigan that went from dial-up to deploying wireless. With WiMAX coming out I think you will see a number of smaller ISPs switching to it as a service. It is also much cheaper to deploy a wireless network. Me personally, I think wireless is the future for residential internet/tv/phone. Ross Hosman Charter Communcations --- Steve Sobol [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fred Heutte wrote: (1) There will be a market for independent ISPs as long CLECs I think a more appropriate term would be ALEC (anti-competitive local exchange carrier) ...That having been said, the problem with the small guys providing access is they can't generally achieve the economies of scale that allow them to compete with the big guys. I'm on a Charter cablemodem, 3mbps down x 256kbps up, $39.95/month. Verizon is building out FTTH in this area and they're going to be offering 5x2 for $39.95 or 10x5 for $49.95, IIRC. Those are all residential prices, but Charter's actually pretty competitive on business rates too. And yes, there are people who value service over price, but the price differential is only going to get worse. -- JustThe.net - Apple Valley, CA - http://JustThe.net/ - 888.480.4NET (4638) Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / [EMAIL PROTECTED] / PGP: 0xE3AE35ED The wisdom of a fool won't set you free --New Order, Bizarre Love Triangle
[OT] Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
At 1:48 PM -0700 5/12/05, David Barak wrote: --- Matthew Crocker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 12, 2005, at 4:23 PM, Jeff Rosowski wrote: | So imagine a residential area all pulling digital video over wireless. | Sound familiar? Ironically close to TV! (yet so different) You mean like VoIP over dsl ? I'm looking to setup DSL over VoIP over DSL next. smirk I'm going for v.90 over VoIP over DSL. Hopefully I'll be able to get a 28.8k connection over my DSL line ;) One of the vendors from a previous NANOG (IIRC, it was Pluris, but don't quote me) had a shirt extolling the benefits of IP over MPLS over ATM over X.25 over Frame-Relay over MPLS over PPP over Ethernet over HDLC over SONET. everything old is new again :) What happened to the LLC/SNAP?
Re: [OT] Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
On Sun, 15 May 2005 14:15:54 EDT, Howard C. Berkowitz said: At 1:48 PM -0700 5/12/05, David Barak wrote: One of the vendors from a previous NANOG (IIRC, it was Pluris, but don't quote me) had a shirt extolling the benefits of IP over MPLS over ATM over X.25 over Frame-Relay over MPLS over PPP over Ethernet over HDLC over SONET. everything old is new again :) What happened to the LLC/SNAP? There's a limit to how much alphabet soup you can put on one side of a T-shirt and still make it readable. ;) pgpiJGxd6n08j.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
So imagine a residential area all pulling digital video over wireless. Sound familiar? Ironically close to TV! (yet so different) What I can't understand is why multicast hasn't just gone gangbusters into use yet. I see it as a really pent-up capability that, in light of Because multicast standards was written by academic idiots. -:) Very difficult to use and full of unused features. (Do not believe? Read RSVP protocol - not exactly multicast but not far away from it). And because multicast protocols (unfortunately) are not easy to implement. It excuse this standards and their authors. I can predict one more 'skype' like company, with really robust protocol, catching multicast market. Something like 'peer to peer multicast' -:). broadband video, etc., is just going to have to break wide open soon. Joe Ross Hosman rosshosman To: Steve Sobol [EMAIL PROTECTED], Fred Heutte [EMAIL PROTECTED] @yahoo.com cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: Subject: Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years? owner-nanog 05/12/2005 02:16 PM Not pointing any fingers but many of you think these small ISP's are just going to die off instead of adapt. Wireless is becoming a better and more reliable technology that in the future will be able to provide faster service then FTTH. I know of atleast one small ISP in Michigan that went from dial-up to deploying wireless. With WiMAX coming out I think you will see a number of smaller ISPs switching to it as a service. It is also much cheaper to deploy a wireless network. Me personally, I think wireless is the future for residential internet/tv/phone. Ross Hosman Charter Communcations --- Steve Sobol [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fred Heutte wrote: (1) There will be a market for independent ISPs as long CLECs I think a more appropriate term would be ALEC (anti-competitive local exchange carrier) ...That having been said, the problem with the small guys providing access is they can't generally achieve the economies of scale that allow them to compete with the big guys. I'm on a Charter cablemodem, 3mbps down x 256kbps up, $39.95/month. Verizon is building out FTTH in this area and they're going to be offering 5x2 for $39.95 or 10x5 for $49.95, IIRC. Those are all residential prices, but Charter's actually pretty competitive on business rates too. And yes, there are people who value service over price, but the price differential is only going to get worse. -- JustThe.net - Apple Valley, CA - http://JustThe.net/ - 888.480.4NET (4638) Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / [EMAIL PROTECTED] / PGP: 0xE3AE35ED The wisdom of a fool won't set you free --New Order, Bizarre Love Triangle
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
So imagine a residential area all pulling digital video over wireless. Sound familiar? Ironically close to TV! (yet so different) Yes, so different... Here's why: http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?pid=10462 Terabyte Firewire/USB2.0 hard drive for $979 If your network has to feed terabyte drives like that one, would you prefer to do it with unicast or with a combination of multicast, peer-2-peer and CDNs? Wireless offers the possibility of cheap, simple multicast, depending on how it is configured. --Michael Dillon
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
And virtualized? ASP (Application Service Providers) were going to Change The Computing Environment. Googling for application service provider gets 2.3 *million* hits. Their *actual* impact? You tell me. Their impact can't be measured because it spread out into niche markets. Like blogs and wikis and all those photo sites. And my company's network with 1,000 customers and PoPs in 20 countries all doing 100% ASP traffic. ASPs businesses are thriving. However, the crystal ball gazers who hyped them back in the late 90's just got it all wrong because they thought ASPs would displace MS-Office desktops and SAP installations. The fundamentals of the ASP industry is that there are companies providing their customers mission critical services over a shared IP network, whether it is the public Internet or a single operator network like ours. It's big business and if you dig into what your customers are actually doing with their Internet connections, you will find it there. --Michael Dillon
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
Alexei Roudnev wrote: What I can't understand is why multicast hasn't just gone gangbusters into use yet. I see it as a really pent-up capability that, in light of Because multicast standards was written by academic idiots. -:) Very difficult to use and full of unused features. (Do not believe? Read RSVP protocol - not exactly multicast but not far away from it). And because multicast protocols (unfortunately) are not easy to implement. It excuse this standards and their authors. I can predict one more 'skype' like company, with really robust protocol, catching multicast market. Something like 'peer to peer multicast' -:). Don't be too quick to assess the usage and value of multicast in last mile access networks, where it has found far greater success than over the Internet proper across the WAN. IP- and ATM- based multicast has worked very well for the past five years in telco VDSL (check out Next Level's implementations during the late nineties), and now in all manner of xDSL implementations, as well as a number of cable operator service applications in the digital region of their spectrum, for program video delivery to homes. Check it out. http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/cc/so/neso/dsso/global/madsl_wp.htm Frank A. Coluccio DTI Consulting Inc. On Fri May 13 2:29 , Alexei Roudnev sent: So imagine a residential area all pulling digital video over wireless. Sound familiar? Ironically close to TV! (yet so different) What I can't understand is why multicast hasn't just gone gangbusters into use yet. I see it as a really pent-up capability that, in light of Because multicast standards was written by academic idiots. -:) Very difficult to use and full of unused features. (Do not believe? Read RSVP protocol - not exactly multicast but not far away from it). And because multicast protocols (unfortunately) are not easy to implement. It excuse this standards and their authors. I can predict one more 'skype' like company, with really robust protocol, catching multicast market. Something like 'peer to peer multicast' -:). broadband video, etc., is just going to have to break wide open soon. Joe Ross Hosman [EMAIL PROTECTED], Fred Heutte [EMAIL PROTECTED] @yahoo.com cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: Subject: Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years? owner-nanog 05/12/2005 02:16 PM Not pointing any fingers but many of you think these small ISP's are just going to die off instead of adapt. Wireless is becoming a better and more reliable technology that in the future will be able to provide faster service then FTTH. I know of atleast one small ISP in Michigan that went from dial-up to deploying wireless. With WiMAX coming out I think you will see a number of smaller ISPs switching to it as a service. It is also much cheaper to deploy a wireless network. Me personally, I think wireless is the future for residential internet/tv/phone. Ross Hosman Charter Communcations --- Steve Sobol [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fred Heutte wrote: (1) There will be a market for independent ISPs as long CLECs I think a more appropriate term would be ALEC (anti-competitive local exchange carrier) ...That having been said, the problem with the small guys providing access is they can't generally achieve the economies of scale that allow them to compete with the big guys. I'm on a Charter cablemodem, 3mbps down x 256kbps up, $39.95/month. Verizon is building out FTTH in this area and they're going to be offering 5x2 for $39.95 or 10x5 for $49.95, IIRC. Those are all residential prices, but Charter's actually pretty competitive on business rates too. And yes, there are people who value service over price, but the price differential is only going to get worse. -- JustThe.net - Apple Valley, CA - http://JustThe.net/ - 888.480.4NET (4638) Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / [EMAIL PROTECTED] / PGP: 0xE3AE35ED The wisdom of a fool won't set you free --New Order, Bizarre Love Triangle
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
Matthew Crocker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] I'm going for v.90 over VoIP over DSL. Hopefully I'll be able to get a 28.8k connection over my DSL line ;) It's astonishingly unreliable, although it could be my setup. V.32 is marginally more reliable than V.90. Yes, I'm using the G.711a codec. GSM mobile phone making CSD calls to an 0870 number, which comes over my ADSL via IAX, an into an ATA where I've plugged in an analogue modem, which is plugged into my router. Said router speaks PPP and sends packets back out over the ADSL. The idea is that I can get data using my free minutes and avoid Orange's extortionate GPRS charges. So I have IP-over-V.32-over-voice-over-IP. Well, until I get a large enough latency spike that the modems lose carrier and it's game over. I've not yet tried to do VoIPoV.90oVoIP yet :) -- PGP key ID E85DC776 - finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for full key Please contribute to the beer fund and a tidier house: http://search.ebay.co.uk/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQsassZpndc
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
On Fri, 13 May 2005 11:23:14 BST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Their impact can't be measured because it spread out into niche markets. Like blogs and wikis and all those photo sites. And my company's network with 1,000 customers and PoPs in 20 countries all doing 100% ASP traffic. ASPs businesses are thriving. However, the crystal ball gazers who hyped them back in the late 90's just got it all wrong because they thought ASPs would displace MS-Office desktops and SAP installations. Exactly what *I* predicted - there's going to be *plenty* of room for small flexible operators in niche markets, at both ends of the pipe. In fact, there's almost certainly money to be made by leveraging the fact that Comcast wants to do 4M/384K/$25 - the number of companies making money from finding innovative ways to sell you electricity is *far* outweighed by the number of companies finding new ways to make money based on the fact that somebody *else* is selling you electricity. The only people who need to worry are the ones whos business model is We made money selling 'just pipes' in that market 5 years ago, and we're doing it now, so it will still be OK 5-10 years from now. 98% of *those* companies are in for a rude awakening. ;) pgpLHHDVohhpK.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
Valdis Kletnieks wrote: there's going to be *plenty* of room for small flexible operators in niche markets, at both ends of the pipe. Agreed. Adding some substance to those words, see: http://www.siliconinvestor.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=21312808 Frank A. Coluccio DTI Consulting - On Fri May 13 9:03 , [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: On Fri, 13 May 2005 11:23:14 BST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Their impact can't be measured because it spread out into niche markets. Like blogs and wikis and all those photo sites. And my company's network with 1,000 customers and PoPs in 20 countries all doing 100% ASP traffic. ASPs businesses are thriving. However, the crystal ball gazers who hyped them back in the late 90's just got it all wrong because they thought ASPs would displace MS-Office desktops and SAP installations. Exactly what *I* predicted - there's going to be *plenty* of room for small flexible operators in niche markets, at both ends of the pipe. In fact, there's almost certainly money to be made by leveraging the fact that Comcast wants to do 4M/384K/$25 - the number of companies making money from finding innovative ways to sell you electricity is *far* outweighed by the number of companies finding new ways to make money based on the fact that somebody *else* is selling you electricity. The only people who need to worry are the ones whos business model is We made money selling 'just pipes' in that market 5 years ago, and we're doing it now, so it will still be OK 5-10 years from now. 98% of *those* companies are in for a rude awakening. ;)
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
On Thu, 12 May 2005 13:40:45 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2005-05-12 at 14:32:45 -0400, Joe Loiacono proclaimed... So imagine a residential area all pulling digital video over wireless. Sound familiar? Ironically close to TV! (yet so different) What I can't understand is why multicast hasn't just gone gangbusters into use yet. I see it as a really pent-up capability that, in light of broadband video, etc., is just going to have to break wide open soon. Do any of the cable companies actually use multicast? A while back, I saw some programming information being broadcast out to my cable modem (I don't remember if it was multicast at this point), but with the DVR's out there now, my TV is just a glorified computer display anyway :) - Eric A number of video providers abroad use multicast video services - some over DSL (cable is getting to be anachronistic) - I can send you some PR if you are interested. I have heard that some US providers are / will be doing the same but I know no details. All that I know of are using it interally, for video distribution, and have no plans to allow arbitrary outside multicasts inside. One reason is that they have existing expensive stuff to get the video to the head end (i.e., satellite systems). The other is that they view their primary business model as a gatekeeper (i.e., they don't want to open it up to any video stream - they want content providers to pay for the privilege). Regards Marshall Eubanks P.S. If you google on this, be aware that multicast also means sending two or more digital video channels over the air in 1 FCC channel allocation. When news reports say that station XYZ announces multicast of local high school football games, that's what they are talking about.
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
Fred Heutte wrote: (1) There will be a market for independent ISPs as long CLECs I think a more appropriate term would be ALEC (anti-competitive local exchange carrier) ...That having been said, the problem with the small guys providing access is they can't generally achieve the economies of scale that allow them to compete with the big guys. I'm on a Charter cablemodem, 3mbps down x 256kbps up, $39.95/month. Verizon is building out FTTH in this area and they're going to be offering 5x2 for $39.95 or 10x5 for $49.95, IIRC. Those are all residential prices, but Charter's actually pretty competitive on business rates too. And yes, there are people who value service over price, but the price differential is only going to get worse. -- JustThe.net - Apple Valley, CA - http://JustThe.net/ - 888.480.4NET (4638) Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / [EMAIL PROTECTED] / PGP: 0xE3AE35ED The wisdom of a fool won't set you free --New Order, Bizarre Love Triangle
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
At a guess supplying services the Comcasts and Verizons of this world haven't managed to provide well, like DNS, Email, Webservices, and feeding trolls. ADSL is virtualised here anyway, as it is almost all from the national telecomms carrier. Some of my best friends own virtual ISPs, they aren't starving.
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
As an economist I know likes to say: It depends. To a varying extent (in some markets more than others), the massive oversubscription of cable that meant poor bandwidth/latency at peak times has declined to the point where the older arguments of committed versus max is less meaningful. Of course in some places it's still terrible, but not everywhere. Besides, distance and crappy phone lines can make a chump out of DSL as well. Also, let's be careful when we talk about the typical user and whether they understand the difference. The typical user may simply not even care, even IF they know the difference. In fact, many that do know the difference may prefer (for whatever reason), to take the higher max of cable, especially if in their neighbourhood that max is achieved quite frequently. Further, who's to say that at some point the cable companies won't start offering minimum guaranteed bandwidth? I doubt they will, but if they were to, then a big advantage of DSL falls apart. Let's also not forget that many of us (myself included), choose not to procure landlines. This can be an extra $10-$30/month on top of the ISP charges. That's a big part of why I have cable at home, and I know others in the same situation. Sure, Oceanic/Earthlink here is worthless - took me 2 weeks to get an install time, and then the lead time on that is 3 weeks (1 week from this Saturday at this point..). But who cares? I'm using someone's open wifi. - bri Shane Owens wrote: On this I am wondering what the user market would chose with an offer from a DSL provider of a guaranteed bandwidth purchase with a contention based cap on max speed. For example DSL sold with a guaranteed bandwidth availability of 256K (or 512K, 768K etc based on 256K increments) with a up to maximum of 7-10Mbps. Would the typical user understand the difference between this the standard Comcast marketing of up to speeds without any service guarantee? Shane It won't be long before the telco's respond by offering DSL at the same speed/price. I've heard (but don't *know*) that SBC is selling 6 down and 1 up in Houston and Dallas for $35. We're doing a fair business selling accelerated dial up for $15. Its surprising how many folks don't want broadband. You don't need 4mb down to read your email. And once you get outside of the city limits there's a good sized market that can't get any type of broadband, especially cable. We may decline some, but I don't think that ISP's are going away anytime soon. Bob Martin -- Brian Russo [EMAIL PROTECTED] (808) 277 8623
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
For every day a company does the same thing they did yesterday, they will be in business one day fewer ... or something like that, - bri Matt Bazan wrote: bottom line is that in a few years everything will be virtualized and cosolodation will rule the land. there will be single turnkey solutions for the end user / corporate environment that will be infinitely configurable to meet the latest trends and needs. there will be no use for the small time 'innovator' or 'player' except in a purely academic environment. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark D. Bodley Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 2:44 PM To: 'Stephen J. Wilcox'; Matt Bazan Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years? Matt, your questions seem extremely prejudiced to a determined outcome. In my opinion resellers are in the long run going to lose because of lack of tangible assets (there is my Bias, on the table. I have my own facilities, and equipment). However because pure resellers lack the facilities they can be resellers(and often are) of whatever the technology of the day is. Strangely, many resellers, grow into facilities based carriers, but if they do not, then they can always move to the next thing. If you sold ISDN, in the 90's, and you knew how to walk someone through configuring their pipeline, you were better than Bell (read PSI Net). If you could accurately test, and deliver DSL, to a client 3-5 years ago, (read COVAD) you were better than Bell. In the future, who knows what it will be, (my bet is wireless, and we all cook like chickens in a Showtime rotisserie) the prevailing trait of those that have been in this for a long time is adaptation. There was a day when selling access off an ISDN connection was doable. I got out of the straight access market in the late 90's. I provide, and resell connectivity, with static routes to applications I host, or maintain. Hopefully the straight resellers of today will be selling microwave, or implant connectivity, or whatever in a few years. Bottom-line public or not, Mom, and Pop, or not no matter what you do in this business you have to be ready to adapt. If you are huge and don't catch the next wave you could be just as dead as the smaller guys that don't catch that next wave. Mark D. Bodley President Cyrix Systems [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.cyrixsys.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen J. Wilcox Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 4:12 PM To: Matt Bazan Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years? On Wed, 11 May 2005, Matt Bazan wrote: why in the world would anyone want to purchase dsl from a private reseller when i can get 4mb down 384 up from comcast for $25? think you dsl resellers out there are doomed. in fact, just a matter of time before most of you isps are down the toilet. im reminded of the mom and pop grocery store phenomenon that has now been replaced by the kohls, ap, whole foods etc. of course there will always be niche markets but this is less applicable for a pure commodity like bandwidth. yeah, i suppose you'll say something about value added services and such and you may have a point but i doubt that will keep the ship afloat for long. Matt, first whats your affiliation and experience in this arena? That these markets exist and more profitably so than the large carriers suggest the problems you are raising dont exist. What is your theory based on, you only cite your personal preference to buy from Comcast which cannot be said to be indicative of the market. Grocery stores are not comparable, this is a different industry and different market. Also bandwidth is not a pure commodity, and DSL is not pure bandwidth. I think your argument is at best uninformed, at worst non-existent.. you need to provide some references, examples, figures, whatever.. else this is little more than trolling. Steve -- Brian Russo [EMAIL PROTECTED] (808) 277 8623
RE: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
While I'm not claiming this is the beginning of a trend, last week a former dialup customer who left ShaysNet for Comcast several months ago returned to our dialups AND brought along a friend who had never been one of our customers before but who was fed up with Comcast. Both said that Comcast was too expensive (neither are 'power users'), the rates go up too quickly (twice the inflation rate?), and Comcast had greater technical problems than we do. It probably helped that I allowed former customers who had switched to Comcast to use our DNS when Comcast's was unreachable. Oh, by the way, did I mention that no one seems to like Comcast's technical support - I was getting calls from former customers who were on Comcast when their network was down. David Leonard ShaysNet
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
Not pointing any fingers but many of you think these small ISP's are just going to die off instead of adapt. Wireless is becoming a better and more reliable technology that in the future will be able to provide faster service then FTTH. I know of atleast one small ISP in Michigan that went from dial-up to deploying wireless. With WiMAX coming out I think you will see a number of smaller ISPs switching to it as a service. It is also much cheaper to deploy a wireless network. Me personally, I think wireless is the future for residential internet/tv/phone. Ross Hosman Charter Communcations --- Steve Sobol [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fred Heutte wrote: (1) There will be a market for independent ISPs as long CLECs I think a more appropriate term would be ALEC (anti-competitive local exchange carrier) ...That having been said, the problem with the small guys providing access is they can't generally achieve the economies of scale that allow them to compete with the big guys. I'm on a Charter cablemodem, 3mbps down x 256kbps up, $39.95/month. Verizon is building out FTTH in this area and they're going to be offering 5x2 for $39.95 or 10x5 for $49.95, IIRC. Those are all residential prices, but Charter's actually pretty competitive on business rates too. And yes, there are people who value service over price, but the price differential is only going to get worse. -- JustThe.net - Apple Valley, CA - http://JustThe.net/ - 888.480.4NET (4638) Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / [EMAIL PROTECTED] / PGP: 0xE3AE35ED The wisdom of a fool won't set you free --New Order, Bizarre Love Triangle
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
Not pointing any fingers but many of you think these small ISP's are just going to die off instead of adapt. Wireless is becoming a better and more reliable technology that in the future will be able to provide faster service then FTTH. I know of atleast one small ISP in Michigan that went from dial-up to deploying wireless. With WiMAX coming out I think you will see a number of smaller ISPs switching to it as a service. It is also much cheaper to deploy a wireless network. Me personally, I think wireless is the future for residential internet/tv/phone. Ross Hosman Charter Communcations --- Steve Sobol [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fred Heutte wrote: (1) There will be a market for independent ISPs as long CLECs I think a more appropriate term would be ALEC (anti-competitive local exchange carrier) ...That having been said, the problem with the small guys providing access is they can't generally achieve the economies of scale that allow them to compete with the big guys. I'm on a Charter cablemodem, 3mbps down x 256kbps up, $39.95/month. Verizon is building out FTTH in this area and they're going to be offering 5x2 for $39.95 or 10x5 for $49.95, IIRC. Those are all residential prices, but Charter's actually pretty competitive on business rates too. And yes, there are people who value service over price, but the price differential is only going to get worse. -- JustThe.net - Apple Valley, CA - http://JustThe.net/ - 888.480.4NET (4638) Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / [EMAIL PROTECTED] / PGP: 0xE3AE35ED The wisdom of a fool won't set you free --New Order, Bizarre Love Triangle Ross Hosman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
So imagine a residential area all pulling digital video over wireless. Sound familiar? Ironically close to TV! (yet so different) What I can't understand is why multicast hasn't just gone gangbusters into use yet. I see it as a really pent-up capability that, in light of broadband video, etc., is just going to have to break wide open soon. Joe Ross Hosman rosshosman To: Steve Sobol [EMAIL PROTECTED], Fred Heutte [EMAIL PROTECTED] @yahoo.com cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: Subject: Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years? owner-nanog 05/12/2005 02:16 PM Not pointing any fingers but many of you think these small ISP's are just going to die off instead of adapt. Wireless is becoming a better and more reliable technology that in the future will be able to provide faster service then FTTH. I know of atleast one small ISP in Michigan that went from dial-up to deploying wireless. With WiMAX coming out I think you will see a number of smaller ISPs switching to it as a service. It is also much cheaper to deploy a wireless network. Me personally, I think wireless is the future for residential internet/tv/phone. Ross Hosman Charter Communcations --- Steve Sobol [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fred Heutte wrote: (1) There will be a market for independent ISPs as long CLECs I think a more appropriate term would be ALEC (anti-competitive local exchange carrier) ...That having been said, the problem with the small guys providing access is they can't generally achieve the economies of scale that allow them to compete with the big guys. I'm on a Charter cablemodem, 3mbps down x 256kbps up, $39.95/month. Verizon is building out FTTH in this area and they're going to be offering 5x2 for $39.95 or 10x5 for $49.95, IIRC. Those are all residential prices, but Charter's actually pretty competitive on business rates too. And yes, there are people who value service over price, but the price differential is only going to get worse. -- JustThe.net - Apple Valley, CA - http://JustThe.net/ - 888.480.4NET (4638) Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / [EMAIL PROTECTED] / PGP: 0xE3AE35ED The wisdom of a fool won't set you free --New Order, Bizarre Love Triangle
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
On Thu, 2005-05-12 at 14:32:45 -0400, Joe Loiacono proclaimed... So imagine a residential area all pulling digital video over wireless. Sound familiar? Ironically close to TV! (yet so different) What I can't understand is why multicast hasn't just gone gangbusters into use yet. I see it as a really pent-up capability that, in light of broadband video, etc., is just going to have to break wide open soon. Do any of the cable companies actually use multicast? A while back, I saw some programming information being broadcast out to my cable modem (I don't remember if it was multicast at this point), but with the DVR's out there now, my TV is just a glorified computer display anyway :) - Eric
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Joe Loiacono wrote: | | | | | So imagine a residential area all pulling digital video over wireless. | Sound familiar? Ironically close to TV! (yet so different) You mean like VoIP over dsl ? Burning gigantic holes in the bandwidth to carry traffic that used to pass nicely through a line rated for 5khz of bandwidth? It always makes me chuckle. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFCg6Ob0STXFHxUucwRAgAEAJwPixesr0E7vSUq/SK7lR8OwR7jtwCgluz6 grthAaniOFMtUdth33DfDBc= =tQsj -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
| So imagine a residential area all pulling digital video over wireless. | Sound familiar? Ironically close to TV! (yet so different) You mean like VoIP over dsl ? I'm looking to setup DSL over VoIP over DSL next. smirk
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
On May 12, 2005, at 4:23 PM, Jeff Rosowski wrote: | So imagine a residential area all pulling digital video over wireless. | Sound familiar? Ironically close to TV! (yet so different) You mean like VoIP over dsl ? I'm looking to setup DSL over VoIP over DSL next. smirk I'm going for v.90 over VoIP over DSL. Hopefully I'll be able to get a 28.8k connection over my DSL line ;) -- Matthew S. Crocker Vice President Crocker Communications, Inc. Internet Division PO BOX 710 Greenfield, MA 01302-0710 http://www.crocker.com
[OT] Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
--- Matthew Crocker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 12, 2005, at 4:23 PM, Jeff Rosowski wrote: | So imagine a residential area all pulling digital video over wireless. | Sound familiar? Ironically close to TV! (yet so different) You mean like VoIP over dsl ? I'm looking to setup DSL over VoIP over DSL next. smirk I'm going for v.90 over VoIP over DSL. Hopefully I'll be able to get a 28.8k connection over my DSL line ;) One of the vendors from a previous NANOG (IIRC, it was Pluris, but don't quote me) had a shirt extolling the benefits of IP over MPLS over ATM over X.25 over Frame-Relay over MPLS over PPP over Ethernet over HDLC over SONET. everything old is new again :) David Barak Need Geek Rock? Try The Franchise: http://www.listentothefranchise.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
RE: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
Wow, I hope not Matt. That is a VERY Bleak outlook. Mark D. Bodley President Cyrix Systems [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.cyrixsys.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Bazan Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 6:02 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years? bottom line is that in a few years everything will be virtualized and cosolodation will rule the land. there will be single turnkey solutions for the end user / corporate environment that will be infinitely configurable to meet the latest trends and needs. there will be no use for the small time 'innovator' or 'player' except in a purely academic environment. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark D. Bodley Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 2:44 PM To: 'Stephen J. Wilcox'; Matt Bazan Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years? Matt, your questions seem extremely prejudiced to a determined outcome. In my opinion resellers are in the long run going to lose because of lack of tangible assets (there is my Bias, on the table. I have my own facilities, and equipment). However because pure resellers lack the facilities they can be resellers(and often are) of whatever the technology of the day is. Strangely, many resellers, grow into facilities based carriers, but if they do not, then they can always move to the next thing. If you sold ISDN, in the 90's, and you knew how to walk someone through configuring their pipeline, you were better than Bell (read PSI Net). If you could accurately test, and deliver DSL, to a client 3-5 years ago, (read COVAD) you were better than Bell. In the future, who knows what it will be, (my bet is wireless, and we all cook like chickens in a Showtime rotisserie) the prevailing trait of those that have been in this for a long time is adaptation. There was a day when selling access off an ISDN connection was doable. I got out of the straight access market in the late 90's. I provide, and resell connectivity, with static routes to applications I host, or maintain. Hopefully the straight resellers of today will be selling microwave, or implant connectivity, or whatever in a few years. Bottom-line public or not, Mom, and Pop, or not no matter what you do in this business you have to be ready to adapt. If you are huge and don't catch the next wave you could be just as dead as the smaller guys that don't catch that next wave. Mark D. Bodley President Cyrix Systems [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.cyrixsys.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen J. Wilcox Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 4:12 PM To: Matt Bazan Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years? On Wed, 11 May 2005, Matt Bazan wrote: why in the world would anyone want to purchase dsl from a private reseller when i can get 4mb down 384 up from comcast for $25? think you dsl resellers out there are doomed. in fact, just a matter of time before most of you isps are down the toilet. im reminded of the mom and pop grocery store phenomenon that has now been replaced by the kohls, ap, whole foods etc. of course there will always be niche markets but this is less applicable for a pure commodity like bandwidth. yeah, i suppose you'll say something about value added services and such and you may have a point but i doubt that will keep the ship afloat for long. Matt, first whats your affiliation and experience in this arena? That these markets exist and more profitably so than the large carriers suggest the problems you are raising dont exist. What is your theory based on, you only cite your personal preference to buy from Comcast which cannot be said to be indicative of the market. Grocery stores are not comparable, this is a different industry and different market. Also bandwidth is not a pure commodity, and DSL is not pure bandwidth. I think your argument is at best uninformed, at worst non-existent.. you need to provide some references, examples, figures, whatever.. else this is little more than trolling. Steve
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
On Wed, 11 May 2005 15:02:29 PDT, Matt Bazan said: bottom line is that in a few years everything will be virtualized and cosolodation will rule the land. there will be single turnkey solutions for the end user / corporate environment that will be infinitely configurable to meet the latest trends and needs. there will be no use for the small time 'innovator' or 'player' except in a purely academic environment. Grandma Tilly wants to put a web page up with pics of the grandkids so Uncle Charlie (who's stuck guarding a sand dune outside Baghdad at the moment) can keep in touch. Google has to catch so many hits/second that they have a dozen hosting farms with multiple tens of thousands of servers at each farm. Yeah. One single infinitely configurable web hosting solution is going to work for both of them, and they will both be able to configure it without assistance. (You don't like that example, pick any two other diametrically opposed customer bases). And virtualized? ASP (Application Service Providers) were going to Change The Computing Environment. Googling for application service provider gets 2.3 *million* hits. Their *actual* impact? You tell me. pgp4gLi147ZCm.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
bottom line is that in a few years everything will be virtualized and cosolodation will rule the land. I've heard this over and over again, and it's just not happened. I'm still one of the few 100% facilities based dial ISPs left in Iowa, and if I have to be reduced to being a reseller to survive, I'll just close shop. But I don't see that happening. Sure, dial up will eventually be a niche service, and that's fine, as most of my revenue will be from other sources by the time that happens. If I ever have to become a dial up reseller, it will be because my core business has moved in another direction. there will be single turnkey solutions for the end user / corporate environment that will be infinitely configurable to meet the latest trends and needs. Are you in a marketing department of some BigCo? Let's produce a single product that 100% of all customers can use, and that can change depending on the latest fad of the day, and we'll rule the marketplace! If it were possible, wouldn't someone have already done that? It sounds like something that would make for a good Dilbert comic strip. there will be no use for the small time 'innovator' or 'player' except in a purely academic environment. You must be new to this game. :-) In Capitolism, there is always an innovator. They drive technology forward, and then the mainstream follows. You're under the false assumption that there will reach a point where there is nothing to innovate in the areas of last mile IP net access, and consolidation will make a single, regulated monopolistic provider. I think we know that scenario won't be allowed to happen. By the federal government regulators (I suppose that depends on the FCC), by state regulators, or competition/capitalism in general. BigCableCo, and BigTelco can fight over customers all they want, I'll be happy with the table scraps. And since single miracle product that can be everything for everyone, and perfectly meets everyone's needs doesn't exist, and won't ever exist, there will be plenty of scraps to be had. -Jerry
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
It's simple, A DSL provider like speakeasy offers much more to a technical user like myself than Comcast does, plus they have an incentive to keep me happy, if i'm not i can leave and go with a competitor, comcast does, and has on many occasions, simply told me to go f*ck myself when i have service issues. (Sorry your modem died sir, the next we can get a tech out to your place is 2 weeks, when i don't need a tech I know what it means when a modem has a failure code). The fact is, DSL is a competitive market, Cable is not, competitive markets keep customers happy, monopolies anger people. Adam On May 11, 2005, at 2:08 PM, Matt Bazan wrote: why in the world would anyone want to purchase dsl from a private reseller when i can get 4mb down 384 up from comcast for $25? think you dsl resellers out there are doomed. in fact, just a matter of time before most of you isps are down the toilet. im reminded of the mom and pop grocery store phenomenon that has now been replaced by the kohls, ap, whole foods etc. of course there will always be niche markets but this is less applicable for a pure commodity like bandwidth. yeah, i suppose you'll say something about value added services and such and you may have a point but i doubt that will keep the ship afloat for long. !DSPAM:42824b1926542573616784!
RE: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
Title: Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years? I have to second this one, having used Comcast and qwest. I look for the small guy, they have something to loss if I drop them and switch. I also like that I can drive down to there office and sit on someone's desk if I am not getting the service I want. Shaun From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Adam Jacob MullerSent: Wed 5/11/2005 12:33 PMTo: Matt BazanCc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years? It's simple,A DSL provider like speakeasy offers much more to a technical userlike myself than Comcast does, plus they have an incentive to keep mehappy, if i'm not i can leave and go with a competitor, comcast does,and has on many occasions, simply told me to go f*ck myself when ihave service issues. (Sorry your modem died sir, the next we can geta tech out to your place is 2 weeks, when i don't need a tech I knowwhat it means when a modem has a failure code).The fact is, DSL is a competitive market, Cable is not, competitivemarkets keep customers happy, monopolies anger people.AdamOn May 11, 2005, at 2:08 PM, Matt Bazan wrote: why in the world would anyone want to purchase dsl from a private reseller when i can get 4mb down 384 up from comcast for $25? think you dsl resellers out there are doomed. in fact, just a matter of time before most of you isps are down the toilet. im reminded of the mom and pop grocery store phenomenon that has now been replaced by the kohls, ap, whole foods etc. of course there will always be niche markets but this is less applicable for a pure commodity like bandwidth. yeah, i suppose you'll say something about value added services and such and you may have a point but i doubt that will keep the ship afloat for long. !DSPAM:42824b1926542573616784!
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
Wow! You can buy groceries at Kohls now? :-) -Jim P. On Wed, 2005-05-11 at 11:08 -0700, Matt Bazan wrote: why in the world would anyone want to purchase dsl from a private reseller when i can get 4mb down 384 up from comcast for $25? think you dsl resellers out there are doomed. in fact, just a matter of time before most of you isps are down the toilet. im reminded of the mom and pop grocery store phenomenon that has now been replaced by the kohls, ap, whole foods etc. of course there will always be niche markets but this is less applicable for a pure commodity like bandwidth. yeah, i suppose you'll say something about value added services and such and you may have a point but i doubt that will keep the ship afloat for long.
RE: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
I spent many happy years on Comcast, during which time they offered $25 dollar specials every so often, but it always creeped back up to $40. Bellsouth adsl seems to be no different in quality and service. I think they are all quite aware of the 'going price', and do not intend to kill that goose, at least not down here. Thanks, Harold -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Jacob Muller Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 2:33 PM To: Matt Bazan Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years? It's simple, A DSL provider like speakeasy offers much more to a technical user like myself than Comcast does, plus they have an incentive to keep me happy, if i'm not i can leave and go with a competitor, comcast does, and has on many occasions, simply told me to go f*ck myself when i have service issues. (Sorry your modem died sir, the next we can get a tech out to your place is 2 weeks, when i don't need a tech I know what it means when a modem has a failure code). The fact is, DSL is a competitive market, Cable is not, competitive markets keep customers happy, monopolies anger people. Adam On May 11, 2005, at 2:08 PM, Matt Bazan wrote: why in the world would anyone want to purchase dsl from a private reseller when i can get 4mb down 384 up from comcast for $25? think you dsl resellers out there are doomed. in fact, just a matter of time before most of you isps are down the toilet. im reminded of the mom and pop grocery store phenomenon that has now been replaced by the kohls, ap, whole foods etc. of course there will always be niche markets but this is less applicable for a pure commodity like bandwidth. yeah, i suppose you'll say something about value added services and such and you may have a point but i doubt that will keep the ship afloat for long. !DSPAM:42824b1926542573616784!
RE: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
On Wed, 2005-05-11 at 12:43 -0600, Shaun Bryant wrote: I have to second this one, having used Comcast and qwest. I look for the small guy, they have something to loss if I drop them and switch. I also like that I can drive down to there office and sit on someone's desk if I am not getting the service I want. OK, I agree with sitting on someone's desk when needed as well as rooting for the small guy. But what happens when insert_any_ilec gobbles up all the small competitors? We will be back at square one having 256K competing against 5MB (dollar for dollar) in large territories. What incentive is there, at that point, for insert_any_ilec to continue rolling out inferior DSL service in areas where big-cable already has coverage? It is true that there are areas where DSL can compete, but that technology is not increasing fast enough to trump cable. Therefore insert_any_ilec is spending their research money elsewhere (i.e. wireless). -Jim P.
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
On Wed, May 11, 2005 at 02:49:50PM -0400, Harold A. Mackey wrote: I spent many happy years on Comcast, during which time they offered $25 dollar specials every so often, but it always creeped back up to $40. Bellsouth adsl seems to be no different in quality and service. I think they are all quite aware of the 'going price', and do not intend to kill that goose, at least not down here. Comcast is hit or miss. My experience with them in Fremont CA was good, but Union City was a nightmare, the service was down all the time. Their support is among the worst I've ever experienced. I switched to a regional DSL provider (Sonic.net) and have never looked back. --Adam
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
It won't be long before the telco's respond by offering DSL at the same speed/price. I've heard (but don't *know*) that SBC is selling 6 down and 1 up in Houston and Dallas for $35. We're doing a fair business selling accelerated dial up for $15. Its surprising how many folks don't want broadband. You don't need 4mb down to read your email. And once you get outside of the city limits there's a good sized market that can't get any type of broadband, especially cable. We may decline some, but I don't think that ISP's are going away anytime soon. Bob Martin Matt Bazan wrote: why in the world would anyone want to purchase dsl from a private reseller when i can get 4mb down 384 up from comcast for $25? think you dsl resellers out there are doomed. in fact, just a matter of time before most of you isps are down the toilet. im reminded of the mom and pop grocery store phenomenon that has now been replaced by the kohls, ap, whole foods etc. of course there will always be niche markets but this is less applicable for a pure commodity like bandwidth. yeah, i suppose you'll say something about value added services and such and you may have a point but i doubt that will keep the ship afloat for long.
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
Matt Bazan wrote: why in the world would anyone want to purchase dsl from a private reseller when i can get 4mb down 384 up from comcast for $25? think you dsl resellers out there are doomed. in fact, just a matter of time before most of you isps are down the toilet. im reminded of the mom and pop grocery store phenomenon that has now been replaced by the kohls, ap, whole foods etc. of course there will always be niche markets but this is less applicable for a pure commodity like bandwidth. yeah, i suppose you'll say something about value added services and such and you may have a point but i doubt that will keep the ship afloat for long. If/When the internet splits into the bad neighborhood/good neighborhood and-never-the-twain-shall-meet, there are strong odds that the comcasts,sbc, and all mass providers to clueless users will not be on the clean side of the breakup. Either that or their costs will go up. Or everyone elses will go down. How about refer to the constant threads which always touch upon the differentation to be made for these market model targets. pure transit managed transit pur access managed access residential comcast is here. managed residential There are hundereds of things you can call up small dsl providers and ask for. Assuming clue and enable, they can generally give you if not what you want, then what you need. For example: Try calling up sbc and getting urpf turned off for a specific prefix and having them do IGP default announcements so that when their dsl goes down you will prefer a different link automatically. How many large market pppoe providers support ppp multilink? Its hardly a foregone conclusion. As it stands, the largest cause of broadband market aggregation is the erosion of fair access provisions and a sleeping(drunk?)-at-the-wheel FCC. Joe
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Adam Jacob Muller wrote: | | It's simple, | A DSL provider like speakeasy offers much more to a technical user like | myself than Comcast does, plus they have an incentive to keep me happy, | if i'm not i can leave and go with a competitor, comcast does, and has | on many occasions, simply told me to go f*ck myself when i have service | issues. (Sorry your modem died sir, the next we can get a tech out to | your place is 2 weeks, when i don't need a tech I know what it means | when a modem has a failure code). | | The fact is, DSL is a competitive market, Cable is not, competitive | markets keep customers happy, monopolies anger people. | And more than the technical user is the benefit to corporations and businesses that DSL providers offer. We see many companies using DSL as a cost effective replacement for backup services formerly run over dialup, ISDN, and other on-demand technologies. The AUPs, filtering policies, routing policies, etc of cable operators are simply not geared to meet the needs of even the most simplistic of corporate requirements. - -- = bep -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (MingW32) iD8DBQFCgl0nE1XcgMgrtyYRAnKBAJ9kPK2/CQ9A+bqMIe4S/9oEZOEFjwCgw/bY k1AnnyyKLRIsNMZby0KBa/8= =dsjN -END PGP SIGNATURE-
RE: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
well i doubt that ma and pa smith and their herd of pigs will keep many isps in business. and a few years down the road technical innovations will allow those without access to readily have broadband for todays dial up prices. (no offense all you hog farmers - my grandparents were hog farmers. and true - cant say they had much use for a fat pipe.) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Martin Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 12:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years? It won't be long before the telco's respond by offering DSL at the same speed/price. I've heard (but don't *know*) that SBC is selling 6 down and 1 up in Houston and Dallas for $35. We're doing a fair business selling accelerated dial up for $15. Its surprising how many folks don't want broadband. You don't need 4mb down to read your email. And once you get outside of the city limits there's a good sized market that can't get any type of broadband, especially cable. We may decline some, but I don't think that ISP's are going away anytime soon. Bob Martin
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 You mean those of us who ARE private isps? Probably doing what we are doing today, reacting to the enviroment. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFCgl5b0STXFHxUucwRAjlIAJ4wxqmzrBbV8tqemqPwyQsqHnhY2wCgpbX4 JkKOd8KXsXzEYtNcXCcswO4= =1NC0 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Yo Bob! On Wed, 11 May 2005, Bob Martin wrote: It won't be long before the telco's respond by offering DSL at the same speed/price. I've heard (but don't *know*) that SBC is selling 6 down and 1 up in Houston and Dallas for $35. BendTel here is offering ADSL2 3up/8 down for $35. That sure beats cable! RGDS GARY - --- Gary E. Miller Rellim 20340 Empire Blvd, Suite E-3, Bend, OR 97701 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel:+1(541)382-8588 Fax: +1(541)382-8676 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFCgl/08KZibdeR3qURAsBsAJ9/Cxej+4avZdLsc45kEiz40PXsrwCghKcw /qEPzI+83MtCBYL8c+sDb9Q= =efV+ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
On Wed, 11 May 2005 12:31:51 PDT, Matt Bazan said: well i doubt that ma and pa smith and their herd of pigs will keep many isps in business. Oddly enough, a famous BBN pioneer has a sheep farm the next county over, and he's contributing to a local ISP's bottom line pgpMgIpu0gxhS.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
On Wed, 11 May 2005 11:08:41 PDT, Matt Bazan said: why in the world would anyone want to purchase dsl from a private reseller when i can get 4mb down 384 up from comcast for $25? What date does Comcast project the *reliable* availability of that service at that price point in *my* area? Make note - I'm at the end of Virginia that's closer to the coal mines than to civilization - there is a county adjacent to this one that has one (singular, less than 2, etc) traffic light in the entire county. Although people in the 3 major towns right in this area have connectivity, there's *large* geographic areas in the vicinity that are well over 20K cable-feet from the local telco CO, and a similar distance from a cable head end. Yes, both the cable and DSL providers have major infrastructure challenges for entire counties around here. There's a lot of people around here who are lucky to get 19.2 dialup over the existing copper, and a number of small ISPs operating in the area. I have a friend who is making money by selling the entire range from 150 hours/ mo of dialup for $8.95/mo to co-lo of servers to web/mail hosting to providing dedicated leased lines - and one of his big selling points is that if you get service from netZero or AOL or other big providers, the CTO will stop by your office in 20 mins and help you fix it isn't an available service, nor can you say this isn't *quite* the combo I wanted, can we negotiate?. And I'm sure that he has a good long-term market niche selling personal-service DSL to all the customers that are outside the cable plant's reach, but have good enough telco copper. And even when there's fiber to everybody in *this* area, he's *still* going to be able to make a living reselling the concept of value-added personal local human support. (Yes, anybody who tries to take on Comcast's 4M/384k/$25 deal head-on in a major metro area is going to have a hard time - however, Comcast probably can't *sustain* that price point and at the same time provide any other services. There's plenty of niche markets on every side of that pipe-size/custom-service/ price-point/location combo). pgpGmIEF55bkT.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
On Wed, 11 May 2005, Matt Bazan wrote: why in the world would anyone want to purchase dsl from a private reseller when i can get 4mb down 384 up from comcast for $25? think you dsl resellers out there are doomed. in fact, just a matter of time before most of you isps are down the toilet. im reminded of the mom and pop grocery store phenomenon that has now been replaced by the kohls, ap, whole foods etc. of course there will always be niche markets but this is less applicable for a pure commodity like bandwidth. yeah, i suppose you'll say something about value added services and such and you may have a point but i doubt that will keep the ship afloat for long. Matt, first whats your affiliation and experience in this arena? That these markets exist and more profitably so than the large carriers suggest the problems you are raising dont exist. What is your theory based on, you only cite your personal preference to buy from Comcast which cannot be said to be indicative of the market. Grocery stores are not comparable, this is a different industry and different market. Also bandwidth is not a pure commodity, and DSL is not pure bandwidth. I think your argument is at best uninformed, at worst non-existent.. you need to provide some references, examples, figures, whatever.. else this is little more than trolling. Steve
RE: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
On this I am wondering what the user market would chose with an offer from a DSL provider of a guaranteed bandwidth purchase with a contention based cap on max speed. For example DSL sold with a guaranteed bandwidth availability of 256K (or 512K, 768K etc based on 256K increments) with a up to maximum of 7-10Mbps. Would the typical user understand the difference between this the standard Comcast marketing of up to speeds without any service guarantee? Shane It won't be long before the telco's respond by offering DSL at the same speed/price. I've heard (but don't *know*) that SBC is selling 6 down and 1 up in Houston and Dallas for $35. We're doing a fair business selling accelerated dial up for $15. Its surprising how many folks don't want broadband. You don't need 4mb down to read your email. And once you get outside of the city limits there's a good sized market that can't get any type of broadband, especially cable. We may decline some, but I don't think that ISP's are going away anytime soon. Bob Martin
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
That sums it up nicely. Bob Martin Joe Maimon wrote: -snip- Its hardly a foregone conclusion. As it stands, the largest cause of broadband market aggregation is the erosion of fair access provisions and a sleeping(drunk?)-at-the-wheel FCC. Joe
RE: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
Folks, I'm going to butt in here. Correct me if I'm wrong. Several years ago, here in California, the word was spread that a cable company has the right to the data and to the information which can be derived from it: rational was that cable is PRIVATE whereas things like POTS lines, DSL, T1, etc. were PUBLIC CARRIER. I, personally, was told, during a job interview in the San Jose area, for a position as a Forth programmer, that the desired outcome of the project was for the cable company to derive access information and purchasing information from the streams of electrons coursing through their cable medium. Maybe I have been mislead, maybe things have changed, but, just to be on the safe side - my household is sticking to analog cable, and several DSL lines, much to Comcast's disgust. Dave Hilton
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
You mean those of us who ARE private isps? Probably doing what we are doing today, reacting to the enviroment. Amen. And, might I add, doing it faster and more efficiently (although on a smaller scale) than any BigCo can. (I feel like troll bait... but will elaborate sense others have taken up this thread.) In the world of slow moving BigCo dinosaurs, I'm just a little quickly adapting rodent looking for scraps. Right now, the efficiencies of big business leave plenty of scraps for the taking. If the getting gets to difficult, there are plenty of other things that I'm over qualified to do. Some days, I think those other things would pay better, and be more satisfying. But alas, I knew that when I decided to start up this little ISP in '96, with 8 modems, a couple of Macs, and a 2511. I knew that if the internet ever got popular and main stream enough, Big Co would jump in, and make it impossible to compete. I figured Oh, what the heck, I might as well give it a go. And yes, that's happened on several fronts, but at each turn, I find new and different things that I can do, and do better, and cheaper than BigCo. If I'm forced all the way out of the market, fine... I'll adapt. If my company goes away because it can't offer what people want, so be it. I'll find something else to do. So will my employeesthey're all smart enough to do different things, and knowing them all well, I know they'd eventually welcome the change of scenery. Any company that doesn't adapt, will go extinct. ANY company. (Unless it's a monopoly) Capitalism, and free markets dictate this. Living in a small town that recently had a major highway bypass it, I've lost some popularity points for stating that. Just because some main street business has been there for 40 years, always doing it the same way from when they started, they think they have some God-given-right to be in business. In reality, it's quite the opposite. Every day a business does the exact same thing that it did the day before, is one less day that company will be in business. That should be the tag line of every small business. -Jerry
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
On Wed, May 11, 2005 at 12:29:43PM -0700, Bruce Pinsky wrote: ISDN, and other on-demand technologies. The AUPs, filtering policies, routing policies, etc of cable operators are simply not geared to meet the needs of even the most simplistic of corporate requirements. FSVO * policies. Bright Hose Tampa Bay's business account policies are certainly loose enough for all of my clients, at least, as well as my own server garden. [0] Cheers, -- jra [0] if I called 4 servers a farm, someone would laugh at me[1]. [1] more than they already do. -- Jay R. Ashworth[EMAIL PROTECTED] Designer Baylink RFC 2100 Ashworth AssociatesThe Things I Think'87 e24 St Petersburg FL USA http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 If you can read this... thank a system administrator. Or two. --me
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
Jim Popovitch wrote: Wow! You can buy groceries at Kohls now? :-) (1) Kohls is/was a regional (Wisconsin) grocery store chain[0]. (2) Please do not feed the trolls. On Wed, 2005-05-11 at 11:08 -0700, Matt Bazan wrote: why in the world would anyone want to purchase dsl from a private reseller when i can get 4mb down 384 up from comcast for $25? think you dsl resellers out there are doomed. in fact, just a matter of time before most of you isps are down the toilet. im reminded of the mom and pop grocery store phenomenon that has now been replaced by the kohls, ap, whole foods etc. of course there will always be niche markets but this is less applicable for a pure commodity like bandwidth. yeah, i suppose you'll say something about value added services and such and you may have a point but i doubt that will keep the ship afloat for long. [0] That's kind of a funny reference when you know what happened to Kohls Foods. They were bought by AP who subsequently closed or sold off the individual stores. Kohls Foods suffered the ma and pa-like fate described above. -- Crist J. Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] Globalstar Communications(408) 933-4387
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
Stephen J. Wilcox wrote: I think your argument is at best uninformed, at worst non-existent.. you need to provide some references, examples, figures, whatever.. else this is little more than trolling. Not only that... since there isn't anything operational in nature about the question or discussion, it's off-topic trolling. OTOH, this is a perfectly valid topic for a list like inet-access. http://inet-access.net/mailman/listinfo/list jc
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
The fact is, DSL is a competitive market, Cable is not, competitive markets keep customers happy, monopolies anger people. How are they different? With DSL, you are usually using the ILECs copper to provide service and paying them. With cable, there are some places that offer a choice in provider on the same coax. You are always free to obtain a franchise and run your own coax. Just because the incumbent cable company does not allow every tom dick and harry ISP to use their copper doesn't mean you can't provide the same service. sam
RE: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
I, personally, was told, during a job interview in the San Jose area, for a position as a Forth programmer, that the desired outcome of the project was for the cable company to derive access information and purchasing information from the streams of electrons coursing through their cable medium. Maybe I have been mislead, Yep, you were mislead or more likely, just misunderstood what they wanted to accomplish. sam
RE: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
Matt, your questions seem extremely prejudiced to a determined outcome. In my opinion resellers are in the long run going to lose because of lack of tangible assets (there is my Bias, on the table. I have my own facilities, and equipment). However because pure resellers lack the facilities they can be resellers(and often are) of whatever the technology of the day is. Strangely, many resellers, grow into facilities based carriers, but if they do not, then they can always move to the next thing. If you sold ISDN, in the 90's, and you knew how to walk someone through configuring their pipeline, you were better than Bell (read PSI Net). If you could accurately test, and deliver DSL, to a client 3-5 years ago, (read COVAD) you were better than Bell. In the future, who knows what it will be, (my bet is wireless, and we all cook like chickens in a Showtime rotisserie) the prevailing trait of those that have been in this for a long time is adaptation. There was a day when selling access off an ISDN connection was doable. I got out of the straight access market in the late 90's. I provide, and resell connectivity, with static routes to applications I host, or maintain. Hopefully the straight resellers of today will be selling microwave, or implant connectivity, or whatever in a few years. Bottom-line public or not, Mom, and Pop, or not no matter what you do in this business you have to be ready to adapt. If you are huge and don't catch the next wave you could be just as dead as the smaller guys that don't catch that next wave. Mark D. Bodley President Cyrix Systems [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.cyrixsys.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen J. Wilcox Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 4:12 PM To: Matt Bazan Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years? On Wed, 11 May 2005, Matt Bazan wrote: why in the world would anyone want to purchase dsl from a private reseller when i can get 4mb down 384 up from comcast for $25? think you dsl resellers out there are doomed. in fact, just a matter of time before most of you isps are down the toilet. im reminded of the mom and pop grocery store phenomenon that has now been replaced by the kohls, ap, whole foods etc. of course there will always be niche markets but this is less applicable for a pure commodity like bandwidth. yeah, i suppose you'll say something about value added services and such and you may have a point but i doubt that will keep the ship afloat for long. Matt, first whats your affiliation and experience in this arena? That these markets exist and more profitably so than the large carriers suggest the problems you are raising dont exist. What is your theory based on, you only cite your personal preference to buy from Comcast which cannot be said to be indicative of the market. Grocery stores are not comparable, this is a different industry and different market. Also bandwidth is not a pure commodity, and DSL is not pure bandwidth. I think your argument is at best uninformed, at worst non-existent.. you need to provide some references, examples, figures, whatever.. else this is little more than trolling. Steve
RE: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
bottom line is that in a few years everything will be virtualized and cosolodation will rule the land. there will be single turnkey solutions for the end user / corporate environment that will be infinitely configurable to meet the latest trends and needs. there will be no use for the small time 'innovator' or 'player' except in a purely academic environment. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark D. Bodley Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 2:44 PM To: 'Stephen J. Wilcox'; Matt Bazan Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years? Matt, your questions seem extremely prejudiced to a determined outcome. In my opinion resellers are in the long run going to lose because of lack of tangible assets (there is my Bias, on the table. I have my own facilities, and equipment). However because pure resellers lack the facilities they can be resellers(and often are) of whatever the technology of the day is. Strangely, many resellers, grow into facilities based carriers, but if they do not, then they can always move to the next thing. If you sold ISDN, in the 90's, and you knew how to walk someone through configuring their pipeline, you were better than Bell (read PSI Net). If you could accurately test, and deliver DSL, to a client 3-5 years ago, (read COVAD) you were better than Bell. In the future, who knows what it will be, (my bet is wireless, and we all cook like chickens in a Showtime rotisserie) the prevailing trait of those that have been in this for a long time is adaptation. There was a day when selling access off an ISDN connection was doable. I got out of the straight access market in the late 90's. I provide, and resell connectivity, with static routes to applications I host, or maintain. Hopefully the straight resellers of today will be selling microwave, or implant connectivity, or whatever in a few years. Bottom-line public or not, Mom, and Pop, or not no matter what you do in this business you have to be ready to adapt. If you are huge and don't catch the next wave you could be just as dead as the smaller guys that don't catch that next wave. Mark D. Bodley President Cyrix Systems [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.cyrixsys.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen J. Wilcox Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 4:12 PM To: Matt Bazan Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years? On Wed, 11 May 2005, Matt Bazan wrote: why in the world would anyone want to purchase dsl from a private reseller when i can get 4mb down 384 up from comcast for $25? think you dsl resellers out there are doomed. in fact, just a matter of time before most of you isps are down the toilet. im reminded of the mom and pop grocery store phenomenon that has now been replaced by the kohls, ap, whole foods etc. of course there will always be niche markets but this is less applicable for a pure commodity like bandwidth. yeah, i suppose you'll say something about value added services and such and you may have a point but i doubt that will keep the ship afloat for long. Matt, first whats your affiliation and experience in this arena? That these markets exist and more profitably so than the large carriers suggest the problems you are raising dont exist. What is your theory based on, you only cite your personal preference to buy from Comcast which cannot be said to be indicative of the market. Grocery stores are not comparable, this is a different industry and different market. Also bandwidth is not a pure commodity, and DSL is not pure bandwidth. I think your argument is at best uninformed, at worst non-existent.. you need to provide some references, examples, figures, whatever.. else this is little more than trolling. Steve
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
On May 11, 2005, at 6:02 PM, Matt Bazan wrote: bottom line is that in a few years everything will be virtualized and cosolodation will rule the land. there will be single turnkey solutions for the end user / corporate environment that will be infinitely configurable to meet the latest trends and needs. there will be no use for the small time 'innovator' or 'player' except in a purely academic environment. If I had a nickel for every time someone told me everything would be: * Consolidated * Virtualized * Automated * Etc., etc. I would have enough to buy an ISP. :-) Add to that every time someone told me the small guys would get pushed out, or that bells will own everything, or that insert favorite analyst catch-phrase and it gets really old really fast. The market / industry / whatever will do things you will not expect. Learn to deal with it. -- TTFN, patrick
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
On 5/11/05, Matt Bazan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: bottom line is that in a few years everything will be virtualized and cosolodation will rule the land. there will be single turnkey solutions for the end user / corporate environment that will be infinitely configurable to meet the latest trends and needs. there will be no use for the small time 'innovator' or 'player' except in a purely academic environment. history has taught us otherwise. aaron.glenn
re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
(1) There will be a market for independent ISPs as long CLECs continue to let their customers enjoy poor service and unnecessary restrictions. Bandwidth is a commodity and scales appropriately; service is service and does not scale without a great deal of management commitment, resources, money, attention and abandonment of the cut-costs/low-bid mentality. (2) This discussion is more appropriate to the ISP-CLEC list. Wish I could be with you all in Seattle next week but work is piling up so . . . back to work/lurk mode . . . phred -- mail forwarded, original message follows -- To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Matt Bazan Subject: FW: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years? Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:13:23 -0700 yep, bryan brings up a good point too. looks like the private dsl reseller ship will soon be taking on more water and floundering yet further. -Original Message- From: Brian Battle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 11:32 AM To: Matt Bazan Subject: RE: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years? You forgot to mention Verizon's Fios (fiber to the house) which will definitely put smaller dsl resellers out of business, unless Verizon gives them access to resell that as well. 15Mbs/2Mbs for $49.95 is going to make even the cable operators scramble to increase bandwidth to maintain customers. -Original Message- From: Matt Bazan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 2:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years? why in the world would anyone want to purchase dsl from a private reseller when i can get 4mb down 384 up from comcast for $25? think you dsl resellers out there are doomed. in fact, just a matter of time before most of you isps are down the toilet. im reminded of the mom and pop grocery store phenomenon that has now been replaced by the kohls, ap, whole foods etc. of course there will always be niche markets but this is less applicable for a pure commodity like bandwidth. yeah, i suppose you'll say something about value added services and such and you may have a point but i doubt that will keep the ship afloat for long.
Re: what will all you who work for private isp's be doing in a few years?
On Wed, 11 May 2005, David Lesher wrote: And the best part; they cut down the copper drop when they install the glass. No more copper EVER, and no resale, no UNE, no COVAD, etc -- you and future owners are stuck with Ma, period. For *now*, ISPs that use VZ DSLAMs can buy wholesale (tariffed, not cost-based) access to them, usually at the price that is 1$ below their retail price. This is mandated by Computer II/III rulings, comparably efficient interconnection. However, bells are trying to get forbearance from even having to do that. SBC's petition for forbearance was denied, however, Verizon's one is still pending. Enjoy ability to buy loops while you still can - we have the best FCC money can buy. -- Alex Pilosov| DSL, Colocation, Hosting Services President | [EMAIL PROTECTED]877-PILOSOFT x601 Pilosoft, Inc. | http://www.pilosoft.com
