Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
As someone who is under 35, this comment strikes a chord with me. I started self-studying networking when I was 15ish, yet I had to wait until I was 26 before I could get a full time job in the industry. I even had to move out of my home country. Getting a solid start in the industry was exceptionally hard, and I see no difference now. What I found is that back in early-mid 00's, the industry was a black box. Unless you knew someone inside of the industry, it was quite impossible to get clear career advice on how to a) get an entry level (support) job and b) how to move out of the entry level into an engineering position. We still suffer this lack of clarity, and it's *hurting* us. We should ask ourselves when is the last time we provided career advice to someone who was under 20, and strive to help more teenagers onto the networking path. Someone once suggested that we go back to our high schools and talk to the kids about a career in IT to help give them insight into what we do, and hopefully win over more mind share. Yes. This. Absolutely. I roped my wifes 9 year old nephew off his iPAD last night and had him help me cable up my home lab (which is currently at 3 racks, started at as an 1841/2924 in 2008.) He loved it. I was able to teach him all about layer 1. That's how I started (at the bottom as a gopher, pulling cables, racking gear and very hands on building out systems and networks). It helps to have passion/great attitude. That's key. I've been in the industry 15 years and am still bright eyed/bushy tailed every day (sure we all have bad days). So much to learn, to experience, to play with, to say "hey, what's this do?". The fundamentals haven't really changed, it's important to keep that in mind. To quote the magic school bus "make mistakes, get messy". (and occasionally, I knew I should of stayed home today, when the pager goes off. ) I've worked for Fox,Disney,IAC , consulted for various defense contractors, mom/pop shops. Every day at those jobs, it could span from helping a "newb" with something basic, to scaling up some of the worlds most recognized brands or defending (or crafting) highly advanced attacks. It's been fun. Now days, I do security. Lots and lots of security. /me goes back to being a hip youngster On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Matthew Petach wrote: > On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote: > [...] > > > > And this... is NANOG! > > Needs more ellipses and capitalization...more like > > > This...IS...NANOG!!! > > building up to a nice crescendo roar as you kick the > hapless interviewee backwards down the deep, dark well > > > On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to > have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, > I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry > have some challenges bringing new blood in--and > treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with > cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going > to help us bring new engineers into the field to > take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes > give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud > serial consoles anymore. > > Matt > CCOF #1999322002 [0] > > > > > [0] Certified Crufty Old Fart > !DSPAM:55797f9d282985036917588!
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
+1 for experience.. being able to teach yourself just about anything drops you into the top 20% of any industry (with maybe a few exceptions). one thing I noticed is that the best professionals I met out there are just as good with people as they are with routers and console screens. IT is usually just a cost center (unless you work for a tech company), so if you learn how to navigate office politics and push change, then you will have a spot with the packet wrangling Gods. On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Steve Mikulasik wrote: > 25 year old neteng reporting in. I got into networking when I wanted to > play Quake against my brother and trying to share a single dial-up > connection between all the computers in the house. > > Well I still have a long way to go (employed full time in IT for just over > 6 years), I think I am ahead of most IT pros in my age group. At the end of > the day us young kids learned the same way most of you did, bit of > education, and the vast majority from experience. > > I am at the point know where my self-education skills are effective enough > that I can learn whatever I don't know and solve most any problem I come > across. From what others have said, I think this is the key to success in > this field, although I think this is a skill you develop early in life or > you never get it. I am now trying to learn the things I didn't know I > needed to know to solve problems I didn't know existed. > > I do agree there isn't a big interest from youth in this field. A lot of > people get introduced to networking through education and never develop a > passion for it. When they graduate they choose IT areas more interesting to > themselves. Most schools are teaching recycled CCNA curriculum and/or > thinking from the early 90s. Can't blame anyone who hasn't developed a > passion for networking outside of education for not entering the field. > Memorizing what an Ethernet frame looks like doesn't build an appreciation > for networking, unless you can see the bigger picture. > > Steve Mikulasik > > -Original Message- > From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Ray Soucy > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 7:37 AM > To: William Waites > Cc: NANOG > Subject: Re: eBay is looking for network heavies... > > I really wonder how people get into this field today. It has gotten > incredibly complex and I've been learning since before I was a teenager > (back when it was much more simple). > > I'm 31 now, but I started getting into computers and specifically > networking at a very young age (elementary school). We had a pair of > teachers that were enthusiasts and built up a computer lab with everything > on token ring running Novell. I thought the fact that I could change to a > different PC by driver letter in DOS was the most amazing thing I had ever > seen in the 3rd grade. From there I was really hooked, got really into > BBSing, and when the first dial-up ISPs started popping up I made it a > point to get a job with them. > > My school district didn't offer a technical program for Internetworking > but they had a technical school that competed in the SkillsUSA competitions > and approached me about competing in the Internetworking event, without any > education or mentor I won the gold medal at the State level both years I > competed and went on to the nationals (where that lack of guidance and > access to equipment to train on meant I got my slice of humble pie). I > held my own, but the guys who won at the national level were just so much > more prepared. Despite the stigma of SkillsUSA being trades focused, the > Internetworking competition was a really great experience that mixed > physical networking and basically a CCNA level of theory (they actually > used an old copy of the CCNA as the exam). > > During this same time I got a paid internship for the local hospital and > rebuilt their entire network after seeing the nightmare it was (they had > the AS400 with all their healthcare data sitting on a public IP address > with no firewall and default QSECOFR credentials sitting there for the > taking with 5020 over IP enabled). It was pretty crazy for a high school > student to be doing a full redesign of a network for a healthcare provider, > even building frame-relay links between facilities and convincing the local > cable company to provide dark fiber between a few. > > When I went to university I made it a point to get student employment with > the NOC they ran to provide all of the public schools and libraries in the > state with their Internet access, and that evolved into a full time job for > them within a few years. > > Looking back, it's been like a perfect storm of opportun
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Jun 11, 2015 7:07 AM, "jim deleskie" wrote: > > There is a good reason there aren't LOTS of "good" neteng in the 30-35 or > under 30 range with lots of experience. Its call the hell we went though > for a while after 2000 working in this industry. Many of us lost jobs and > couldn't find new ones. I know talented folks that had to go to delivering > pizzas ( not to slag pizza delivery folks) to support themselves and their > families. Some folks ended up leaving the industry because of it and I'm > "sure" lots of people choose to no get into the field seeing no jobs. This > type of event causes a whole that takes a long time correct. > So I'm at your early 30s mark too. I've read all y'all on getting in by helping grow the internet and not thinking these things still exist. Two thoughts: 1. Heard of IPv6? Wasn't made just to keep us employed. 2. I'd give anything to have replaced my Encarda (sp?) cd with Wikipedia in middle school. I'd have killed to replace my Motorola with an android or iPhone in high school. To not have a heavy ass bag of books hurting my hand and just grip my kindle. And to have had the ability to hook up a phone line to the 8088 or apple // in elementary school would've been awesome. I'm sure if you look you'll find similar conversations years earlier about "I got in by helping lay the groundwork for Unix/C/DARPANet. IDK what future generations will do to get a job at my level." You aren't the smartest person on the net and not the only person with luck to be in the right place. I hear about teachers using Wikipedia and podcasts as teaching aids and I think "they wouldn't even let me cite Wikipedia in college". Feel sorry for people if you want - I'll help people if I can but never do I think I had it better.
RE: eBay is looking for network heavies...
25 year old neteng reporting in. I got into networking when I wanted to play Quake against my brother and trying to share a single dial-up connection between all the computers in the house. Well I still have a long way to go (employed full time in IT for just over 6 years), I think I am ahead of most IT pros in my age group. At the end of the day us young kids learned the same way most of you did, bit of education, and the vast majority from experience. I am at the point know where my self-education skills are effective enough that I can learn whatever I don't know and solve most any problem I come across. From what others have said, I think this is the key to success in this field, although I think this is a skill you develop early in life or you never get it. I am now trying to learn the things I didn't know I needed to know to solve problems I didn't know existed. I do agree there isn't a big interest from youth in this field. A lot of people get introduced to networking through education and never develop a passion for it. When they graduate they choose IT areas more interesting to themselves. Most schools are teaching recycled CCNA curriculum and/or thinking from the early 90s. Can't blame anyone who hasn't developed a passion for networking outside of education for not entering the field. Memorizing what an Ethernet frame looks like doesn't build an appreciation for networking, unless you can see the bigger picture. Steve Mikulasik -Original Message- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Ray Soucy Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 7:37 AM To: William Waites Cc: NANOG Subject: Re: eBay is looking for network heavies... I really wonder how people get into this field today. It has gotten incredibly complex and I've been learning since before I was a teenager (back when it was much more simple). I'm 31 now, but I started getting into computers and specifically networking at a very young age (elementary school). We had a pair of teachers that were enthusiasts and built up a computer lab with everything on token ring running Novell. I thought the fact that I could change to a different PC by driver letter in DOS was the most amazing thing I had ever seen in the 3rd grade. From there I was really hooked, got really into BBSing, and when the first dial-up ISPs started popping up I made it a point to get a job with them. My school district didn't offer a technical program for Internetworking but they had a technical school that competed in the SkillsUSA competitions and approached me about competing in the Internetworking event, without any education or mentor I won the gold medal at the State level both years I competed and went on to the nationals (where that lack of guidance and access to equipment to train on meant I got my slice of humble pie). I held my own, but the guys who won at the national level were just so much more prepared. Despite the stigma of SkillsUSA being trades focused, the Internetworking competition was a really great experience that mixed physical networking and basically a CCNA level of theory (they actually used an old copy of the CCNA as the exam). During this same time I got a paid internship for the local hospital and rebuilt their entire network after seeing the nightmare it was (they had the AS400 with all their healthcare data sitting on a public IP address with no firewall and default QSECOFR credentials sitting there for the taking with 5020 over IP enabled). It was pretty crazy for a high school student to be doing a full redesign of a network for a healthcare provider, even building frame-relay links between facilities and convincing the local cable company to provide dark fiber between a few. When I went to university I made it a point to get student employment with the NOC they ran to provide all of the public schools and libraries in the state with their Internet access, and that evolved into a full time job for them within a few years. Looking back, it's been like a perfect storm of opportunity that I just don't think exists today. I'm really happy I was born when I was and able to have a front row seat to see the explosion of the Internet. I don't know if I'm just getting "old" but I feel like technology has gotten so easy for young people that most of them have no idea how it works, and no desire to know. When we interview for new people, especially fresh out of school, its really disappointing when I hear them start to talk about a /24 as a "class C" and go on to find out the extent of their understanding ends at a textbook that is 20 years out of date. When I ask if they use Linux and they respond yes, I start getting into the details and learn they don't even know the basics on the CLI like being able to find and kill a process (thanks, Ubuntu). I think it'
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Wednesday, June 10, 2015, Alex White-Robinson wrote: > Matthew Petach > wrote: > > > On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to > > have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, > > I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry > > have some challenges bringing new blood in--and > > treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with > > cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going > > to help us bring new engineers into the field to > > take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes > > give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud > > serial consoles anymore. > > > > Matt > > CCOF #1999322002 [0] > > I've seen very little attention paid to junior talent in the last few > years, and know a few people who would have been talented engineers that > never got a chance to show it. > They moved into other industries because of the lack of junior roles. > > I know very few people in network engineering that are under thirty, and > not that many under thirty five. > > My unscientific impression is that 90% of the neteng jobs are for senior engineers on indeed.com with north of 5 years experience. Going back to the OP, looking for network heavies. How do you get heavies if you don't grow a bench? My $dayjob open reqs are definately all sr eng or above. We have a decent internship program, but far from sufficient to grow a bench > On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Matthew Petach > > wrote: > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Jay Ashworth > wrote: > > [...] > > > > > > And this... is NANOG! > > > > Needs more ellipses and capitalization...more like > > > > > > This...IS...NANOG!!! > > > > building up to a nice crescendo roar as you kick the > > hapless interviewee backwards down the deep, dark well > > > > > > On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to > > have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, > > I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry > > have some challenges bringing new blood in--and > > treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with > > cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going > > to help us bring new engineers into the field to > > take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes > > give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud > > serial consoles anymore. > > > > Matt > > CCOF #1999322002 [0] > > > > > > > > > > [0] Certified Crufty Old Fart > > >
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
I really wonder how people get into this field today. It has gotten incredibly complex and I've been learning since before I was a teenager (back when it was much more simple). I'm 31 now, but I started getting into computers and specifically networking at a very young age (elementary school). We had a pair of teachers that were enthusiasts and built up a computer lab with everything on token ring running Novell. I thought the fact that I could change to a different PC by driver letter in DOS was the most amazing thing I had ever seen in the 3rd grade. From there I was really hooked, got really into BBSing, and when the first dial-up ISPs started popping up I made it a point to get a job with them. My school district didn't offer a technical program for Internetworking but they had a technical school that competed in the SkillsUSA competitions and approached me about competing in the Internetworking event, without any education or mentor I won the gold medal at the State level both years I competed and went on to the nationals (where that lack of guidance and access to equipment to train on meant I got my slice of humble pie). I held my own, but the guys who won at the national level were just so much more prepared. Despite the stigma of SkillsUSA being trades focused, the Internetworking competition was a really great experience that mixed physical networking and basically a CCNA level of theory (they actually used an old copy of the CCNA as the exam). During this same time I got a paid internship for the local hospital and rebuilt their entire network after seeing the nightmare it was (they had the AS400 with all their healthcare data sitting on a public IP address with no firewall and default QSECOFR credentials sitting there for the taking with 5020 over IP enabled). It was pretty crazy for a high school student to be doing a full redesign of a network for a healthcare provider, even building frame-relay links between facilities and convincing the local cable company to provide dark fiber between a few. When I went to university I made it a point to get student employment with the NOC they ran to provide all of the public schools and libraries in the state with their Internet access, and that evolved into a full time job for them within a few years. Looking back, it's been like a perfect storm of opportunity that I just don't think exists today. I'm really happy I was born when I was and able to have a front row seat to see the explosion of the Internet. I don't know if I'm just getting "old" but I feel like technology has gotten so easy for young people that most of them have no idea how it works, and no desire to know. When we interview for new people, especially fresh out of school, its really disappointing when I hear them start to talk about a /24 as a "class C" and go on to find out the extent of their understanding ends at a textbook that is 20 years out of date. When I ask if they use Linux and they respond yes, I start getting into the details and learn they don't even know the basics on the CLI like being able to find and kill a process (thanks, Ubuntu). I think it's a big part of why the industry finds so little value in a degree vs. experience. That said, there are schools with dedicated networking programs that have really impressed me. RIT is the first that comes to mind. On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 8:53 AM, William Waites wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2015 14:24:31 +0200, Ruairi Carroll < > ruairi.carr...@gmail.com> said: > > > What I found is that back in early-mid 00's, the industry was a > > black box. Unless you knew someone inside of the industry... > > I suspect this is partly a result of the consolidation that went > on. In the mid 1990s when I started, there were tons of small mom and > pop ISPs with 28.8 modems stacked on Ikea shelving. The way that I got > my first job as a student was literally by hanging around one of them > and pestering them until they hired me part time. These small ISPs > grew and most were eventually were acquired and people who stuck > around through that -- especially the often quite complicated network > integration that happens after acquisitions -- learned quite a lot > about how the Internet operates at a variety of scales and saw a > variety of different architectures and technical strategies. > > The scale and stability of today's Internet means that path is mostly > closed now I think, particularly if what you want to do is get a job > at a big company. But not entirely, there are still lots of rich > field-learning opportunities on the periphery, in places where large > carriers fear to tread... > > -w > -- Ray Patrick Soucy Network Engineer University of Maine System T: 207-561-3526 F: 207-561-3531 MaineREN, Maine's Research and Education Network www.maineren.net
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Thu, 11 Jun 2015 14:24:31 +0200, Ruairi Carroll said: > What I found is that back in early-mid 00's, the industry was a > black box. Unless you knew someone inside of the industry... I suspect this is partly a result of the consolidation that went on. In the mid 1990s when I started, there were tons of small mom and pop ISPs with 28.8 modems stacked on Ikea shelving. The way that I got my first job as a student was literally by hanging around one of them and pestering them until they hired me part time. These small ISPs grew and most were eventually were acquired and people who stuck around through that -- especially the often quite complicated network integration that happens after acquisitions -- learned quite a lot about how the Internet operates at a variety of scales and saw a variety of different architectures and technical strategies. The scale and stability of today's Internet means that path is mostly closed now I think, particularly if what you want to do is get a job at a big company. But not entirely, there are still lots of rich field-learning opportunities on the periphery, in places where large carriers fear to tread... -w pgp0gR1EaUSp2.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On 11 June 2015 at 06:46, Alex White-Robinson wrote: > Matthew Petach wrote: > > > On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to > > have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, > > I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry > > have some challenges bringing new blood in--and > > treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with > > cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going > > to help us bring new engineers into the field to > > take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes > > give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud > > serial consoles anymore. > > > > Matt > > CCOF #1999322002 [0] > > I've seen very little attention paid to junior talent in the last few > years, and know a few people who would have been talented engineers that > never got a chance to show it. > They moved into other industries because of the lack of junior roles. > > I know very few people in network engineering that are under thirty, and > not that many under thirty five. > > As someone who is under 35, this comment strikes a chord with me. I started self-studying networking when I was 15ish, yet I had to wait until I was 26 before I could get a full time job in the industry. I even had to move out of my home country. Getting a solid start in the industry was exceptionally hard, and I see no difference now. What I found is that back in early-mid 00's, the industry was a black box. Unless you knew someone inside of the industry, it was quite impossible to get clear career advice on how to a) get an entry level (support) job and b) how to move out of the entry level into an engineering position. We still suffer this lack of clarity, and it's *hurting* us. We should ask ourselves when is the last time we provided career advice to someone who was under 20, and strive to help more teenagers onto the networking path. Someone once suggested that we go back to our high schools and talk to the kids about a career in IT to help give them insight into what we do, and hopefully win over more mind share. /me goes back to being a hip youngster > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Matthew Petach > wrote: > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote: > > [...] > > > > > > And this... is NANOG! > > > > Needs more ellipses and capitalization...more like > > > > > > This...IS...NANOG!!! > > > > building up to a nice crescendo roar as you kick the > > hapless interviewee backwards down the deep, dark well > > > > > > On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to > > have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, > > I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry > > have some challenges bringing new blood in--and > > treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with > > cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going > > to help us bring new engineers into the field to > > take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes > > give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud > > serial consoles anymore. > > > > Matt > > CCOF #1999322002 [0] > > > > > > > > > > [0] Certified Crufty Old Fart > > > >
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
There is a good reason there aren't LOTS of "good" neteng in the 30-35 or under 30 range with lots of experience. Its call the hell we went though for a while after 2000 working in this industry. Many of us lost jobs and couldn't find new ones. I know talented folks that had to go to delivering pizzas ( not to slag pizza delivery folks) to support themselves and their families. Some folks ended up leaving the industry because of it and I'm "sure" lots of people choose to no get into the field seeing no jobs. This type of event causes a whole that takes a long time correct. On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 1:46 AM, Alex White-Robinson wrote: > Matthew Petach wrote: > > > On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to > > have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, > > I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry > > have some challenges bringing new blood in--and > > treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with > > cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going > > to help us bring new engineers into the field to > > take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes > > give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud > > serial consoles anymore. > > > > Matt > > CCOF #1999322002 [0] > > I've seen very little attention paid to junior talent in the last few > years, and know a few people who would have been talented engineers that > never got a chance to show it. > They moved into other industries because of the lack of junior roles. > > I know very few people in network engineering that are under thirty, and > not that many under thirty five. > > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Matthew Petach > wrote: > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote: > > [...] > > > > > > And this... is NANOG! > > > > Needs more ellipses and capitalization...more like > > > > > > This...IS...NANOG!!! > > > > building up to a nice crescendo roar as you kick the > > hapless interviewee backwards down the deep, dark well > > > > > > On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to > > have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, > > I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry > > have some challenges bringing new blood in--and > > treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with > > cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going > > to help us bring new engineers into the field to > > take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes > > give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud > > serial consoles anymore. > > > > Matt > > CCOF #1999322002 [0] > > > > > > > > > > [0] Certified Crufty Old Fart > > >
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
I'm curious. What reading and comprehension level does one need to be considered a network heavy? No snark, I really would like to know. On Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 6:01 AM Mark Foster wrote: > > > On 11/06/2015 4:46 p.m., Alex White-Robinson wrote: > > Matthew Petach wrote: > > > >> On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to > >> have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, > >> I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry > >> have some challenges bringing new blood in--and > >> treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with > >> cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going > >> to help us bring new engineers into the field to > >> take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes > >> give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud > >> serial consoles anymore. > >> > >> Matt > >> CCOF #1999322002 [0] > > I've seen very little attention paid to junior talent in the last few > > years, and know a few people who would have been talented engineers that > > never got a chance to show it. > > They moved into other industries because of the lack of junior roles. > > > > I know very few people in network engineering that are under thirty, and > > not that many under thirty five. > > An interesting statement; both my current network engineering team > members are under 35 (and one is under 30) - i'm actually on the hunt > for a slightly more senior resource at the moment to take up a vacant > Team Leader role, and the candidates i've had apply are generally in > their 30's. > > But perhaps New Zealand is a different audience to the North American > continent. Fair enough. > > My career started as a Network Junior and i'm keen to facilitiate > opportunities to move upward for others who're in similar circumstances > to that which I was in ~10 years ago, surely i'm not that unusual...?? > > Mark. > > >
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On 11/06/2015 4:46 p.m., Alex White-Robinson wrote: Matthew Petach wrote: On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry have some challenges bringing new blood in--and treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going to help us bring new engineers into the field to take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud serial consoles anymore. Matt CCOF #1999322002 [0] I've seen very little attention paid to junior talent in the last few years, and know a few people who would have been talented engineers that never got a chance to show it. They moved into other industries because of the lack of junior roles. I know very few people in network engineering that are under thirty, and not that many under thirty five. An interesting statement; both my current network engineering team members are under 35 (and one is under 30) - i'm actually on the hunt for a slightly more senior resource at the moment to take up a vacant Team Leader role, and the candidates i've had apply are generally in their 30's. But perhaps New Zealand is a different audience to the North American continent. Fair enough. My career started as a Network Junior and i'm keen to facilitiate opportunities to move upward for others who're in similar circumstances to that which I was in ~10 years ago, surely i'm not that unusual...?? Mark.
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
Matthew Petach wrote: > On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to > have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, > I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry > have some challenges bringing new blood in--and > treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with > cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going > to help us bring new engineers into the field to > take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes > give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud > serial consoles anymore. > > Matt > CCOF #1999322002 [0] I've seen very little attention paid to junior talent in the last few years, and know a few people who would have been talented engineers that never got a chance to show it. They moved into other industries because of the lack of junior roles. I know very few people in network engineering that are under thirty, and not that many under thirty five. On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Matthew Petach wrote: > On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote: > [...] > > > > And this... is NANOG! > > Needs more ellipses and capitalization...more like > > > This...IS...NANOG!!! > > building up to a nice crescendo roar as you kick the > hapless interviewee backwards down the deep, dark well > > > On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to > have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, > I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry > have some challenges bringing new blood in--and > treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with > cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going > to help us bring new engineers into the field to > take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes > give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud > serial consoles anymore. > > Matt > CCOF #1999322002 [0] > > > > > [0] Certified Crufty Old Fart >
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On 06/10/2015 07:47 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: Over the past 25 years or so, I can think of a half-dozen offers I've turned down because the employer failed the interview. (Which doesn't make me a geeenious ... just someone who values low blood pressure, and prefers an interesting work environment over $$$) OK, can't ignore a straight line like that... When I was living in Chicago, a head-hunter steered me to a consulting firm that had a hot project. They were looking for young hot programmers for a top-secret project. After the phone screen, the company called me in for the face-to-face "interview". I put the word "interview" in quotes because, for 25 minutes, the chief programmer of the place played a video game he wrote. That was the extent of the interview! The company? A game studio (back when game studios were new) who had a contract to develop games for the to-be-introduced Coleco Adam. Um, that was a surprise, and not my thing. I ran out of there...
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Jun 10, 2015, at 11:18 AM, goe...@anime.net wrote: > Indeed, the interview process is a two way street. Lets you evaluate who you > would be working for -- or if you really would want to. I wrote most of a very long follow-up to this. But what it boils down to is: +10,000 For all of you sitting across the table, consider that you are being interviewed even more intensely than you think you are interviewing us. (By anyone who has been in the game for a while, at least. Which means the people you have short-listed, right?) Over the past 25 years or so, I can think of a half-dozen offers I've turned down because the employer failed the interview. (Which doesn't make me a geeenious ... just someone who values low blood pressure, and prefers an interesting work environment over $$$) --lyndon signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote: [...] > > And this... is NANOG! Needs more ellipses and capitalization...more like This...IS...NANOG!!! building up to a nice crescendo roar as you kick the hapless interviewee backwards down the deep, dark well On a slightly different note, however--while it's good to have an appreciation of the past and how we got here, I think it's wise to also recognize we as an industry have some challenges bringing new blood in--and treating it too much like a sacred priesthood with cabalistic knowledge and initiation rites isn't going to help us bring new engineers into the field to take over for us crusty old farts when our eyes give out and we can't type into our 9600 baud serial consoles anymore. Matt CCOF #1999322002 [0] [0] Certified Crufty Old Fart
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Tue, 9 Jun 2015, Jay Ashworth wrote: - Original Message - From: "Shane Ronan" When I was asked the default BGP timers across three different vendor platforms as measure of my networking ability during an interview, I replied saying I'd look them up if needed them. I was told I didn't understand BGP in enough detail, despite being able to describe all the steps of BGP session establishment and route exchange. Certs have ruined the industry. Maybe. But they certainly saved you from having to work for an asshole with misplaced priorities... Indeed, the interview process is a two way street. Lets you evaluate who you would be working for -- or if you really would want to. -Dan
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
- Original Message - > From: "Shane Ronan" > When I was asked the default BGP timers across three different vendor > platforms as measure of my networking ability during an interview, I > replied saying I'd look them up if needed them. > > I was told I didn't understand BGP in enough detail, despite being able to > describe all the steps of BGP session establishment and route > exchange. > > Certs have ruined the industry. Maybe. But they certainly saved you from having to work for an asshole with misplaced priorities... Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink j...@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Mon, 8 Jun 2015, Yardiel D. Fuentes wrote: This discussion is always reminisced of questions such as: Why would I want to learn Algebra or Calculus in college ? or why would I want to go to college at all ? .. the student argues that calculus or college is hardly ever used, if at all, in a job … the most sensible perspective has always been: It is not only about the knowledge itself, but how learning those subjects train your mind to tackle technical problems…same in networking… Some of the best interview questions are those that pose a problem and ask you to tackle it by explaining your train of thought…It requires both: knowledge and how to apply it... Your point is well taken, but being asked to recite section 4.2.1 of RFC is: 1. little more than rote memorization 2. says nothing about a candidate's skills or critical thinking abilities. For the record, there are times in my professional career where I've made some use of algebra and calculus :) jms
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
I (sortakinda related to the as-drifted thread) was reminded today of another flag I watched for back in the day by something I saw on Facebook™ today--people using words (especially big words) that do not mean what they think they do. http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2015/6/8/8748933/pat-venditte-switch-pitcher-newspaper-headline-amphibious-pitcher I also think the biggest hurdle I faced was that HR did all the early interviewing from lists of questions and answers (sometimes) that we had to produce without regard to a specific opening. Towards the end of my days we were told that the candidate visit with us was not and interview, it was an opportunity for the candidate to see if she (or he) liked us. -- sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Juvenal)
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
'Don't learn by heart that which you can look up.' apart from enough basics to get you up and connected so that you CAN look things up! ;) There's a whole debate about the education system and learning things by rote that can be looked up. In many sectors you have reference tomes. ..some MUST be reviewed before doing any work. I think there are some key advantages to knowing things when in the field BEFORE you then see the rest of the day go by while troubleshooting. You have to know eg the basics of OSPF to know what to look up when an adjacency doesn't come up. ..to be in 'the right ballpark' as they say :) alan
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On 06/08/2015 07:34 PM, shawn wilson wrote: On Jun 8, 2015 10:11 PM, "Shane Ronan" wrote: Certs have ruined the industry. Certs have made the industry more interesting. After all, without certs, we'd have less stupid to point at and laugh (or scream). And HR screeners would need to know something about the position they're screening. I think that some people here don't realize just who benefits from vendor-specific certifications. It's the *vendors*. It's why companies like Microsoft, Red Hat, Cisco, Juniper, &c spend the money to develop certification programs: to ensure there are a pool of people who can effectively use [some of] their products without having to call technical support all the time. Certification programs are expensive, time- and resource-intensive, and a pain to keep up to date as products mature and grow. The job is even more of a pain when large companies like Cisco end up buying other companies to add their products to the Cisco line to allow customers to solve particular problems and "stay in the family". It's like a tech business wanting to locate in places like San Jose, Cambridge, or Autin...because that's where they can find workers ready to slot into their game. Vendors like to have a large enough certified people so that management can feel comfortable buying vendor hardware and software -- it reduces risk for both customer *and* vendor. Reduced risks means more profits. For everyone.
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
Hi, > Certs have ruined the industry. Certifications are great keywords for recruiters. If you're a hiring manager, why create a huge list of all routing protocols you'd like the ideal candidate to understand? Saying "I need a JNCIE with 5 years experience" is a lot easier than "the ideal candidate has an expert-level understanding of OSPF/ISIS, MPLS signaling protocols such as LDP and RSVP, BGP, IPv4/IPv6 and $vendor equipment. You get a bunch of resumes where you look for the experience needed for the position and off you go to do your phone screening. Those who are really experts will be able to pass the certification exams without too much trouble, and those who made it through 20 bootcamps prior to taking their 6th attempt at CCIE R&S before passing are easily weed out by a quick chat on the phone. That said, there is a constant devaluation when it comes to certifications. They start off as being very difficult and only achievable for the real experts, and then the makers get directed by the company to make them easier as too few people pass them. I was part of the development team for the IP certification track of a major telecommunications vendor. The entire team was actually surprised that people passed the professional level exams (2 required) and some even passed the expert level lab exam. They have since made it easier, after I left that company. The same happened with JNCIE. Initially it was a two day exam. Then one had to pass the one day JNCIP-M and the one day JNCIE-M exam. And now even the JNCIP is a written exam, with the JNCIE-SP being a lot easier (so I've been told). Anyway, out of experience I can recommend all of you looking for good network engineers to hire out of your extended network. Someone who comes recommended by someone that I respect will be on top of my list to get in for an interview. Thanks, Sabri JNCIE-M/SP #261 JNCSP-SP JNCIS-ER ECE-IPN #2 ECE-FB #2 (sorry, had to ;)
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
i don't think certs have ruined the industry. bad interviewing and recruiting, maybe... asking encyclopedia-type "gotcha" questions are the most inane test of someone's ability to perform well at the job. i promise you - you didn't want to work for this person anyways. got a cert? great. but let's whiteboard a real-world problem and see how you do. i won't play you into a trap. On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 7:11 PM Shane Ronan wrote: > When I was asked the default BGP timers across three different vendor > platforms as measure of my networking ability during an interview, I > replied saying I'd look them up if needed them. > > I was told I didn't understand BGP in enough detail, despite being able to > describe all the steps of BGP session establishment and route exchange. > > Certs have ruined the industry. >
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Jun 8, 2015 10:11 PM, "Shane Ronan" wrote: > > Certs have ruined the industry. Certs have made the industry more interesting. After all, without certs, we'd have less stupid to point at and laugh (or scream). And HR screeners would need to know something about the position they're screening.
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
When I was asked the default BGP timers across three different vendor platforms as measure of my networking ability during an interview, I replied saying I'd look them up if needed them. I was told I didn't understand BGP in enough detail, despite being able to describe all the steps of BGP session establishment and route exchange. Certs have ruined the industry. On Jun 7, 2015 11:20 PM, "Jimmy Hess" wrote: > On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 7:28 AM, Stephen Satchell > wrote: > > On 06/07/2015 01:10 AM, Joshua Riesenweber wrote: [snip] > > What the industry could probably use most for entry-level certs is > a technical reading comprehension requirement on the certs, or a > requirement > of GRE scores e.g. 145 Verbal, 160 Math, before being able to obtain > the certs, to demonstrate an ability to read and understand documentation, > including BNF, and the ability to lookup something from a technical > manual, > read, understand, and apply it properly using qualified background > knowledge > at the level being certified. > > Too often, certs concentrate on trivial minutia that is "trivially > tested", but also not > frequently used, so the population has a bunch of people who just paid > copious $$$ for in-person coaching on _just the specifics of the exam_, > or people who memorized answers from stolen copies of exams. > > So even in that, many of the tests lose their ability, due to the > intervention of > 3rd party "learning providers" who are just making a quick buck training > candidates directly to exams, instead of teaching the subject. > > In short: In regards to the use of certifications when hiring --- they > can be used by > non-technical reviewers to help filter candidates, where there are > more applicants than > desired.Consider it a "bulk" filtering criteria that can be done > instantly without wasting > as much time, and the final filter might be an internal quiz and > human interviewers. > > > The certs are no definitive measure, but candidates with Both > experience and industry > certs to help confirm the quality of that experience are more likely > to be applicants worth > committing serious time to evaluate, And they can be used to help break > ties > between otherwise equal applicants in favor of those certified. > > > As to if it matters whether the certification is for Cisco equipment and > you > use X vendor equipment instead, I would refer to > semi-relevant link here: > http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/News/Item/7c334037d1a9437d9fa6506e2f35eaac > > > If Carpenters were hired like engineers > 'I see here, you have experience with cutting timber with "Makita and > Milwaukee brand Skillsaws" > Unfortunately, we need someone with 25 years experience using the > DeWalts.' > > Certifications can also be used by consultants/contractors to market > services, > or assure end customers that their services are by people "qualified > by the vendor > of their equipment". > > > > > The R&S CCIE lab exame is a timed practical exam, and as certification > tests > > goes it does a fair job measuring the ability of the candidate to > implement > > routers and switches to obtain certain results, ON CISCO EQUIPMENT. > (This > > is also true of the other Cisco certification tracks.) > > Correct. However, earning a certification such as CCIE demonstrates > that you are not > one of those clueless folks who completely lacks understanding and > ability to learn > basic config and troubleshooting.Earning the cert would require a > great deal of practice > due to their time limits, therefore the candidate that holds one > shows proof of > a certain level of dedication to advancement or learning within the field. > > And sufficient technical aptitude and ability to learn is implied by > the certificate to deal > with other vendor's equipment, even though Cisco's certifications only > address Cisco > equipment directly; there are many vendor-neutral concepts which should > have > been understood for success. > > > The specifics of configuration language and hardware are > "implementation details". > No certification measures a candidate's ability to quickly learn novel > configuration syntax > or special rules of arbitrary $new_vendor's equipment. > > > One can learn how to do almost anything. The real trick is being able to > > finish tasks quickly, and that's damn hard to do without practice, > practice, > > Ability to finish tasks *accurately* is what matters. > But very simple things should be done quickly. > > The results of non-repetitive tasks should always be looked at carefully > to help > validate accuracy,, > > And the practice required to do any tasks that are frequent and repetitive > should be gained by anyone qualified on the job fairly quickly. > > > That said, certifications show that the candidate can turn a wrench. It > > shows nothing about the candidate's ability to handle ARIN, to > troubleshoot > > political snafus, how to deal with management tha
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On 06/08/2015 06:22 PM, Scott Weeks wrote: --- valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: On Mon, 08 Jun 2015 17:10:25 -0700, Jeroen van Aart said: You sort of nailed it though. I think ready knowledge about the internals of utilities such as traceroute or ping is nice to have, however if you don't know Describe the top 3 gotchas of using traceroute to diagnose network problems. :) That's something you're not likely to look up if you're in the middle of a connectivity event Yes, but it's different to knowing stuff by heart that you can just research. Note that I do not mention any specific search tool, I barely even use the largest search engines. The "top 3 gotchas of using traceroute" is something I would expect to be part of basic skills that someone with at least mid level knowledge in the field would possess. But how exactly traceroute does its thing is something I personally like to read about but not remember word for word. Greetings, Jeroen -- Earthquake Magnitude: 5.2 Date: 2015-06-09 01:09:02.910 UTC Date Local: 2015-06-08 17:09:02 PDT Location: 11km ENE of Malesina, Greece Latitude: 38.6699; Longitude: 23.3453 Depth: 5.76 km | e-quake.org
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
This discussion is always reminisced of questions such as: Why would I want to learn Algebra or Calculus in college ? or why would I want to go to college at all ? .. the student argues that calculus or college is hardly ever used, if at all, in a job … the most sensible perspective has always been: It is not only about the knowledge itself, but how learning those subjects train your mind to tackle technical problems…same in networking… Some of the best interview questions are those that pose a problem and ask you to tackle it by explaining your train of thought…It requires both: knowledge and how to apply it... A simple example can be: What does the n*n or (n^2) problem represent in BGP ? … Where does the n*n formula come from ? …. these questions can trigger a technical interview conversation or Q&A…covering BGP-RR’s, BGP confeds, etc etc…maybe H-VPLS … By the time the conversation is over, there is a better grasp of someone’s understanding on networks … Yardiel On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 8:26 PM, Justin M. Streiner wrote: > On Mon, 8 Jun 2015, Jeroen van Aart wrote: > > On 06/05/2015 06:38 PM, Mike Hale wrote: >> >>> We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute. >>> >> >> Don't learn by heart that which you can look up. In this day and age >> where knowledge about every subject imaginable is a 5 second (to a minute >> for those less versed in researching) internet search away there is no need >> to hold all that knowledge iny our memory. >> > > Reminds me of a job interview I had many years ago, where the interviewer > was looking for me to quote chapter and verse of several RFCs for different > routing protocols. Uh... yeah. > > jms > -- Yardiel Fuentes
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
--- valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: On Mon, 08 Jun 2015 17:10:25 -0700, Jeroen van Aart said: > You sort of nailed it though. I think ready knowledge > about the internals of utilities such as traceroute > or ping is nice to have, however if you don't know Describe the top 3 gotchas of using traceroute to diagnose network problems. :) That's something you're not likely to look up if you're in the middle of a connectivity event It's these types of questions that're hard for some in an interview even though they know their stuff. One might get nervous wondering if (s)he gave the interviewer the three that they're looking for and stumble on the next question even though the next question seems easy to the interviewer. I'd ask the question a little differently: I have a network problem between 2 sites and there is a firewall between them that is blocking ICMP and nothing else. How would you complete a traceroute to troubleshoot? (Use BSD or tcptraceroute, for example) Then, it turns the questioning into operational. scott
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Mon, 08 Jun 2015 17:10:25 -0700, Jeroen van Aart said: > You sort of nailed it though. I think ready knowledge about the > internals of utilities such as traceroute or ping is nice to have, > however if you don't know Describe the top 3 gotchas of using traceroute to diagnose network problems. :) That's something you're not likely to look up if you're in the middle of a connectivity event pgpNvabcQvdNu.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
Yeah, I think that's more about them stroking their own ego than anything to do with you or the job. I've unfortunately seen a few of those types before as well. > On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:26 PM, Justin M. Streiner > wrote: > >> On Mon, 8 Jun 2015, Jeroen van Aart wrote: >> >>> On 06/05/2015 06:38 PM, Mike Hale wrote: >>> We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute. >> >> Don't learn by heart that which you can look up. In this day and age where >> knowledge about every subject imaginable is a 5 second (to a minute for >> those less versed in researching) internet search away there is no need to >> hold all that knowledge iny our memory. > > Reminds me of a job interview I had many years ago, where the interviewer was > looking for me to quote chapter and verse of several RFCs for different > routing protocols. Uh... yeah. > > jms
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Mon, 8 Jun 2015, Jeroen van Aart wrote: On 06/05/2015 06:38 PM, Mike Hale wrote: We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute. Don't learn by heart that which you can look up. In this day and age where knowledge about every subject imaginable is a 5 second (to a minute for those less versed in researching) internet search away there is no need to hold all that knowledge iny our memory. Reminds me of a job interview I had many years ago, where the interviewer was looking for me to quote chapter and verse of several RFCs for different routing protocols. Uh... yeah. jms
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On 06/05/2015 06:38 PM, Mike Hale wrote: We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute. You sort of nailed it though. I think ready knowledge about the internals of utilities such as traceroute or ping is nice to have, however if you don't know it it is not something that should disqualify you as an expert or someone with advanced knowledge in the field. Don't learn by heart that which you can look up. In this day and age where knowledge about every subject imaginable is a 5 second (to a minute for those less versed in researching) internet search away there is no need to hold all that knowledge iny our memory. What is far more important (above and beyond the basic skills) is the ability to research quickly, find out the answers you are looking for and apply them in a timely manner. It is actually not easy, because much to my dismay I have found out that so many people, whether they have a phd, or are the airco repair person, have such inability to even use the most basic research tools. It makes you feel like a search engine by proxy. :-( Greetings, Jeroen -- Earthquake Magnitude: 4.7 Date: 2015-06-08 22:20:42.040 UTC Date Local: 2015-06-08 15:20:42 PDT Location: 97km SSE of Makry Gialos, Greece Latitude: 34.1882; Longitude: 26.2303 Depth: 15.48 km | e-quake.org
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Jun 8, 2015 1:42 AM, "shawn wilson" wrote: > > > On Jun 7, 2015 10:59 PM, "Jay Ashworth" wrote: > > > > > I don't > > RTFM, I google. It's often faster, so many of TFMs are online now. > > > > Until Google supports regex and some of the duckduckgo module features, I'll be faster getting to reference to you will on Google. Notice I said reference, not an answer - sometimes you care more about the background than the answer (like if you're filing a bug). > > man /perldoc /rdoc /:help /etc is where it's at (and allows me to answer lots of questions with man foo ¦ grep bar - which is still bad but doesn't have such a negative feeling that lmgtfy or a Google link does). Also notice I intentionally left out the failed 'info' pages :) > > Point here is that "Google" is probably the wrong answer here. Oh this NANOG and manufacturers have different levels of documentation, so I guess s/wrong/incomplete/ is more apt.
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Jun 7, 2015 10:59 PM, "Jay Ashworth" wrote: > > I don't > RTFM, I google. It's often faster, so many of TFMs are online now. > Until Google supports regex and some of the duckduckgo module features, I'll be faster getting to reference to you will on Google. Notice I said reference, not an answer - sometimes you care more about the background than the answer (like if you're filing a bug). man /perldoc /rdoc /:help /etc is where it's at (and allows me to answer lots of questions with man foo ¦ grep bar - which is still bad but doesn't have such a negative feeling that lmgtfy or a Google link does). Also notice I intentionally left out the failed 'info' pages :) Point here is that "Google" is probably the wrong answer here.
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 7:28 AM, Stephen Satchell wrote: > On 06/07/2015 01:10 AM, Joshua Riesenweber wrote: [snip] What the industry could probably use most for entry-level certs is a technical reading comprehension requirement on the certs, or a requirement of GRE scores e.g. 145 Verbal, 160 Math, before being able to obtain the certs, to demonstrate an ability to read and understand documentation, including BNF, and the ability to lookup something from a technical manual, read, understand, and apply it properly using qualified background knowledge at the level being certified. Too often, certs concentrate on trivial minutia that is "trivially tested", but also not frequently used, so the population has a bunch of people who just paid copious $$$ for in-person coaching on _just the specifics of the exam_, or people who memorized answers from stolen copies of exams. So even in that, many of the tests lose their ability, due to the intervention of 3rd party "learning providers" who are just making a quick buck training candidates directly to exams, instead of teaching the subject. In short: In regards to the use of certifications when hiring --- they can be used by non-technical reviewers to help filter candidates, where there are more applicants than desired.Consider it a "bulk" filtering criteria that can be done instantly without wasting as much time, and the final filter might be an internal quiz and human interviewers. The certs are no definitive measure, but candidates with Both experience and industry certs to help confirm the quality of that experience are more likely to be applicants worth committing serious time to evaluate, And they can be used to help break ties between otherwise equal applicants in favor of those certified. As to if it matters whether the certification is for Cisco equipment and you use X vendor equipment instead, I would refer to semi-relevant link here: http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/News/Item/7c334037d1a9437d9fa6506e2f35eaac If Carpenters were hired like engineers 'I see here, you have experience with cutting timber with "Makita and Milwaukee brand Skillsaws" Unfortunately, we need someone with 25 years experience using the DeWalts.' Certifications can also be used by consultants/contractors to market services, or assure end customers that their services are by people "qualified by the vendor of their equipment". > The R&S CCIE lab exame is a timed practical exam, and as certification tests > goes it does a fair job measuring the ability of the candidate to implement > routers and switches to obtain certain results, ON CISCO EQUIPMENT. (This > is also true of the other Cisco certification tracks.) Correct. However, earning a certification such as CCIE demonstrates that you are not one of those clueless folks who completely lacks understanding and ability to learn basic config and troubleshooting.Earning the cert would require a great deal of practice due to their time limits, therefore the candidate that holds one shows proof of a certain level of dedication to advancement or learning within the field. And sufficient technical aptitude and ability to learn is implied by the certificate to deal with other vendor's equipment, even though Cisco's certifications only address Cisco equipment directly; there are many vendor-neutral concepts which should have been understood for success. The specifics of configuration language and hardware are "implementation details". No certification measures a candidate's ability to quickly learn novel configuration syntax or special rules of arbitrary $new_vendor's equipment. > One can learn how to do almost anything. The real trick is being able to > finish tasks quickly, and that's damn hard to do without practice, practice, Ability to finish tasks *accurately* is what matters. But very simple things should be done quickly. The results of non-repetitive tasks should always be looked at carefully to help validate accuracy,, And the practice required to do any tasks that are frequent and repetitive should be gained by anyone qualified on the job fairly quickly. > That said, certifications show that the candidate can turn a wrench. It > shows nothing about the candidate's ability to handle ARIN, to troubleshoot > political snafus, how to deal with management that is severely All of these are things that can be learned without a large amount of grief, you need reading comprehension; ARIN's policies and tools are fairly well documented in writing. The candidate who can't even learn and pass a cert test might actually be incapable of learning what is required on their own. It's not cost-effective to buy in-person training or certify for *every little thing* that comes up later. > clue-deficient, and most important play nice with colleagues at other -- -JH
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
Jay said: >Original RFC editor. Invented Perl, among other things. Co-designed DNS >(did I get that right?) I personally always label layers 8, 9, and 10 >as money, management and inside counsel, but I know views differ. I don't >RTFM, I google. It's often faster, so many of TFMs are online now. >And this... is NANOG! >What's my starting rate? :-) Close enough but I look for Evi's t-shirt for layers 8&9; financial and political. Back in 2000 your starting rate would have been $90k/yr, $25k signing and 9k of stock options at $21. It's that last one that makes me wish I could have drunk the Kool-Aid for 5 years. -- Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
RE: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Sun, 7 Jun 2015, Joshua Riesenweber wrote: As someone studying their first CCIE (RS), I sometimes find these kind of discussions disheartening. They come up every now and again, and the opinions seem vary anywhere between 'a good interview tool' and 'less than worthless'. [snip] Does a certification mean that you are an expert? No. Does it mean you are devoid of skill? No. All it means is that the person has studied the curriculum, and passed the tests.No more, no less. [snip] When I see someone who has a certification, and they can follow it up with actual skills, it indicates they have a certain level of dedication to improving themselves and their education. (In my experience it takes more time to study a certification track than to learn just what you need to get a job done.) Agreed. I don't think certs are completely worthless, nor do I make a professional judgment on someone based solely on the alphabet soup they append to their name (or don't). I've been working in the technology world for over 20 years and have had the opportunity to work with people who had the papers and were top-notch, and people who had those same papers and were complete tools in an "*I* have a CCIE... my excrement can't *possibly* stink!" kind of way. Likewise, some of the sharpest people I've ever worked with had no certs at all, but there were lots of tools there, too. Certs are nice, but someone who has them on their resume had better be prepared to walk the walk in a technical interview. As the OP mentioned, the alphabet soup just puts someone at the head of the line for a phone interview. Nothing more. jms
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
- Original Message - > From: "Larry Sheldon" > I find it interesting that I have not note a mention of people like > Radia Pearlman and [name advancing years have stolen from me] that wrote > a 3 volume set (I think it was) (that I can not find in the > post-great-downsizing-bookshelves-disarray at the moment*). > > *did a little Binging--Not W. Richard Stevens although the > subconscious thinks "steven" might have been the first name. > > NO! Douglas E. Comer "Internetworking with TCP/IP" > (Nice try subconscious! Volume 3 is co-authored by David L. Stevens.) No, W Richard was a layer up the stack: http://www.kohala.com/start/ Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink j...@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
> Here's the topper: who was (is) Al Gore, and what part did he play in > the birth of the Internet as we know it today? Try not to howl as some > of the answers you will get. Advocated for the funding of NREN while in Congress; later misquoted as saying he'd "invented the Internet" at some length, no? Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink j...@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
- Original Message - > From: "Joe Hamelin" > Back in 2000 at Amazon, HR somehow decided to have me do the phone > interviews for neteng. I'd go through questions on routing and what not, > then at the end I would ask questions like, "Who was Jon Postel? Who > is Larry Wall? Who is Paul Vixie? What are layers 8 & 9? Explain the RTFM > protocol. What is NANOG?" Those answers (or long silences) told me > more about the candidate than most of the technical questions. Original RFC editor. Invented Perl, among other things. Co-designed DNS (did I get that right?) I personally always label layers 8, 9, and 10 as money, management and inside counsel, but I know views differ. I don't RTFM, I google. It's often faster, so many of TFMs are online now. And this... is NANOG! What's my starting rate? :-) Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink j...@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
- Original Message - > From: "John Fraizer" > It's been over a decade since I was an active participant on NANOG. I > didn't know that the NANOG-JOBS list existed. Sometimes it's easier to > ask for forgiveness than permission though. I guess it's a good thing > Susan H. isn't here to throw me in NANOG jail, huh? It's horrible. I got thrown in there after Katrina. Just an accident that I discovered later they'd left the door unlocked. And they don't feed you either. Now that the humor's out of the way, I've been on NANOG since the mid-90s and I didn't know we had a -jobs list at all... Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink j...@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
Bill, Stop now! You just made me spew beer in all directions out my nose! I have no doubt that there is a home for you @ eBay if you ever desire it. John Fraizer --Sent from my Android phone. Please excuse any typos. On Jun 6, 2015 8:57 PM, "manning" wrote: > i’ll never make it past the telephone screen…. > > manning > bmann...@karoshi.com > PO Box 12317 > Marina del Rey, CA 90295 > 310.322.8102 > > > > On 6June2015Saturday, at 19:17, John Fraizer wrote: > > > Just to be clear, CERTS are NOT a requirement for these positions. They > > will head-of-line someone for a phone screen. THAT IS ALL! And if you've > > got a cert, you had better know your stuff because if your cert says > you're > > an EXPERT. I'm gonna expect you to be one! > > > > John Fraizer > > --Sent from my Android phone. > > Please excuse any typos. > > On Jun 6, 2015 5:50 PM, "Randy" wrote: > > > >> $employers don't help in this regard either by requiring said certs. > Such > >> requirements; IMO, lead to folks preparing/passing such tests just for > >> $day_job only without any real desire to understand how > >> things-actually-work&why. > >> > >> > >> > >> - Original Message - > >> From: John Fraizer > >> To: Łukasz Bromirski > >> Cc: nanog@nanog.org > >> Sent: Friday, June 5, 2015 5:55 PM > >> Subject: Re: eBay is looking for network heavies... > >> > >> Folks, > >> > >> It's just a piece of paper in my opinion. A person either knows their > >> stuff or they don't. Less than 5min on a phone screen and I will know > if > >> they "bought" their certification(s) or earned them. Sadly, I've > spoken to > >> far too many who give some validation to Jared's comment. I'm wondering > how > >> many proctors have been paid off or if people are buying fake id's for > >> smart people and paying them to sit for the tests posing as them. > >> > >> John Fraizer > >> --Sent from my Android phone. > >> Please excuse any typos. > >> On Jun 5, 2015 5:45 PM, "Łukasz Bromirski" > wrote: > >> > >>> > >>>> On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a > >>> piece > >>>>> of paper every time! > >>>> > >>>> Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is > >> that > >>>> the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of > actual > >>>> troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are > >>>> different than the rest of the world). > >>> > >>> Jared, don’t generalize. > >>> > >>> True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not > >>> start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them > >>> didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting. > >>> > >>> — > >>> CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 > >>> (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course) > >> > >
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 6:57 PM, Peter Kristolaitis wrote: > In many ways, certification tracks are something like getting a PhD. > Completely useless information (and very few skills) to anything you'll do > in the "real world", but if it makes your clock tick, go for it. Just > don't expect me to be impressed when I'm interviewing you, because it has > no direct relationship with your ability to do this job. > > Certs are a good way to get selected by the HR people and have your CV forwarded to the people that will actually do the interviewing part. Some companies actually put out job listings with required mandatory certifications so from their point of view, you only qualify if you have a piece of paper saying that you know X,Y,Z. > My favourite question to ask candidates during an interview is "Tell me > about a cool technology project you've done outside of work." I don't > even really care what the answer is, it's more about "do they get revved up > while they're talking about it?" > Cool idea, never thought of this type of questions when gauging peoples interest in motivation and the desire to learn. Eugeniu
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
Shop class can also teach you how to turn a wrench. How many people out of that area go on to be the best mechanics you¹ve ever seen? Some do, some don¹t. Certifications aren¹t any different. They are around to establish a benchmark of minimally qualified knowledge. We all should know the difference between hands-on and multiple-choice things. ANY knowledge is useless unless you know how to actually use it. Looking at your previous post about all the Layer1 things actually made me smile. But that was based on my experience, not something an IE exam taught me. (You were the first person I have ever heard refer to the 30cm with ethernet in the almost 30 years I¹ve been doing cabling stuff. I loved it!) We all should know the specifics of what is (or more importantly IS NOT) being tested on in the various exams. And ask questions accordingly. While I¹m happy that someone could spout off particular names and their functional contributions to the world, it likewise does not have any indication about someone¹s ability to actually program Perl or configure/use/whatever to BIND. Quit bitching about the certifications and simply make your interviews appropriate to what you want to know that a candidate can actually DO on the job. Certs or no certs, there are people who know things and people who do not. If you discount people simply because they have a certification, then you are missing out IMHO. But I guess take that as you will since I have several of these certifications. :) Scott -Original Message- From: Stephen Satchell Date: Sunday, June 7, 2015 at 8:28 AM To: , "nanog@nanog.org" Subject: Re: eBay is looking for network heavies... >That said, certifications show that the candidate can turn a wrench. It >shows nothing about the candidate's ability to handle ARIN, to >troubleshoot political snafus, how to deal with management that is >severely clue-deficient, and most important play nice with colleagues at >other network operator centers. Not to mention one's own customers, and >even sometimes co-workers. And all the other (arguably) non-technical >parts of being a member of a network operations team.
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On 6/7/2015 4:10 AM, Joshua Riesenweber wrote: As someone studying their first CCIE (RS), I sometimes find these kind of discussions disheartening. They come up every now and again, and the opinions seem vary anywhere between 'a good interview tool' and 'less than worthless'. A certification is like anything else a person puts on their resume -- I assume its value is overstated and follow the "trust, but verify" protocol. I expect candidates to have the same body of knowledge regardless of whether or not they're certified -- I need them to do a job, and that job requires certain skills. If getting that piece of paper taught you those skills -- great, though very unlikely. If you acquired the skills without the paper, also great. Generally I find that candidates with no/few certs are the more well-rounded (real-life experience + practical knowledge) candidates. The School of Hard Knocks is a great institution of learning. following a certification track isn't perfect, but it gives (at least to me) the structure to cover areas of knowledge that you might not if you were doing 100% on the job training or some other methods. It gives you something to aim for, and helps with motivation and setting goals. In many ways, certification tracks are something like getting a PhD. Completely useless information (and very few skills) to anything you'll do in the "real world", but if it makes your clock tick, go for it. Just don't expect me to be impressed when I'm interviewing you, because it has no direct relationship with your ability to do this job. As a personal growth tool -- great. As a professional growth tool -- meh. When I see someone who has a certification, and they can follow it up with actual skills, it indicates they have a certain level of dedication to improving themselves and their education. (In my experience it takes more time to study a certification track than to learn just what you need to get a job done.) My favourite question to ask candidates during an interview is "Tell me about a cool technology project you've done outside of work." I don't even really care what the answer is, it's more about "do they get revved up while they're talking about it?" If they fire up to 110% and get super excited to tell you about the super-awesome $THING they built/coded/hacked, it bodes well for their motivation about all things tech, including learning about it. The "geek" type, if you will. If they shrivel up and say "I dunno... Uhh... I installed Exchange once." then I know all I need to know about their dedication to improving their knowledge & skills. They're here for a day job and really aren't passionate about technology. I often ask this question early in the interview process -- I find it helps the really-awesome-but-with-poor-interview-skills geeks to relax and do well with the rest of the interview, and it it provides me with a pretty damned reliable barometer reading of the candidate from the get-go.
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On 06/07/2015 01:10 AM, Joshua Riesenweber wrote: Now from what I understand of the CCIE lab exam (which I haven't attempted yet), it is a practical exam and you need to know your stuff to pass. I'm sure people think up ways to cheat and devalue it, that's bound to happen. I've sat on both sides of the interview table, and I've had plenty of both certified an uncertified people come through that don't know their stuff.I've also had plenty of both certified and uncertified people who have been great. When I see someone who has a certification, and they can follow it up with actual skills, it indicates they have a certain level of dedication to improving themselves and their education. (In my experience it takes more time to study a certification track than to learn just what you need to get a job done.) The R&S CCIE lab exame is a timed practical exam, and as certification tests goes it does a fair job measuring the ability of the candidate to implement routers and switches to obtain certain results, ON CISCO EQUIPMENT. (This is also true of the other Cisco certification tracks.) The companies that sell preparation services coach the customers and provide hands-on instruction on how to streamline the prep for the actual setting up of the equipment -- that pesky time limit. (By the way, don't get me started on CompTIA. I used to belong to that organization. Talk about sausage being made...) One can learn how to do almost anything. The real trick is being able to finish tasks quickly, and that's damn hard to do without practice, practice, practice. Also, how to approach understanding the lab exercises so you *can* finish each task quickly and demonstrability correctly (taking into consideration automated grading of your work, by the way) is a big part of it. That said, certifications show that the candidate can turn a wrench. It shows nothing about the candidate's ability to handle ARIN, to troubleshoot political snafus, how to deal with management that is severely clue-deficient, and most important play nice with colleagues at other network operator centers. Not to mention one's own customers, and even sometimes co-workers. And all the other (arguably) non-technical parts of being a member of a network operations team.
RE: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Jun 7, 2015 4:12 AM, "Joshua Riesenweber" wrote: > > (In my experience it takes more time to study a certification track than to learn just what you need to get a job done.) > Stated different, no job is going to teach you how to pass a cert. And no cert is going to teach a job. One can help with the other, but different skills are involved.
RE: eBay is looking for network heavies...
As someone studying their first CCIE (RS), I sometimes find these kind of discussions disheartening. They come up every now and again, and the opinions seem vary anywhere between 'a good interview tool' and 'less than worthless'. It took me a long time to get started in certifications once I began working in IT, because I questioned why I needed a piece of paper to prove what I knew.After I've started, I realised that following a certification track isn't perfect, but it gives (at least to me) the structure to cover areas of knowledge that you might not if you were doing 100% on the job training or some other methods. It gives you something to aim for, and helps with motivation and setting goals. Does a certification mean that you are an expert? No. Does it mean you are devoid of skill? No. All it means is that the person has studied the curriculum, and passed the tests.No more, no less. Now from what I understand of the CCIE lab exam (which I haven't attempted yet), it is a practical exam and you need to know your stuff to pass. I'm sure people think up ways to cheat and devalue it, that's bound to happen. I've sat on both sides of the interview table, and I've had plenty of both certified an uncertified people come through that don't know their stuff.I've also had plenty of both certified and uncertified people who have been great. When I see someone who has a certification, and they can follow it up with actual skills, it indicates they have a certain level of dedication to improving themselves and their education. (In my experience it takes more time to study a certification track than to learn just what you need to get a job done.) Just my 2c... Cheers,Josh
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On 6/6/2015 05:43, shawn wilson wrote: My first thought on reading that was "who the hell cares if a person knows about internet culture". But than I had to reconsider - it's a very apt way of telling if someone read the right books :) I would also add Ritchie, Thompson, and Diffie to that list (since you ask about Larry, it's only appropriate). I find it interesting that I have not note a mention of people like Radia Pearlman and [name advancing years have stolen from me] that wrote a 3 volume set (I think it was) (that I can not find in the post-great-downsizing-bookshelves-disarray at the moment*). *did a little Binging--Not W. Richard Stevens although the subconscious thinks "steven" might have been the first name. NO! Douglas E. Comer "Internetworking with TCP/IP" (Nice try subconscious! Volume 3 is co-authored by David L. Stevens.) -- sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Juvenal)
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
i’ll never make it past the telephone screen…. manning bmann...@karoshi.com PO Box 12317 Marina del Rey, CA 90295 310.322.8102 On 6June2015Saturday, at 19:17, John Fraizer wrote: > Just to be clear, CERTS are NOT a requirement for these positions. They > will head-of-line someone for a phone screen. THAT IS ALL! And if you've > got a cert, you had better know your stuff because if your cert says you're > an EXPERT. I'm gonna expect you to be one! > > John Fraizer > --Sent from my Android phone. > Please excuse any typos. > On Jun 6, 2015 5:50 PM, "Randy" wrote: > >> $employers don't help in this regard either by requiring said certs. Such >> requirements; IMO, lead to folks preparing/passing such tests just for >> $day_job only without any real desire to understand how >> things-actually-work&why. >> >> >> >> - Original Message - >> From: John Fraizer >> To: Łukasz Bromirski >> Cc: nanog@nanog.org >> Sent: Friday, June 5, 2015 5:55 PM >> Subject: Re: eBay is looking for network heavies... >> >> Folks, >> >> It's just a piece of paper in my opinion. A person either knows their >> stuff or they don't. Less than 5min on a phone screen and I will know if >> they "bought" their certification(s) or earned them. Sadly, I've spoken to >> far too many who give some validation to Jared's comment. I'm wondering how >> many proctors have been paid off or if people are buying fake id's for >> smart people and paying them to sit for the tests posing as them. >> >> John Fraizer >> --Sent from my Android phone. >> Please excuse any typos. >> On Jun 5, 2015 5:45 PM, "Łukasz Bromirski" wrote: >> >>> >>>> On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a >>> piece >>>>> of paper every time! >>>> >>>> Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is >> that >>>> the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual >>>> troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are >>>> different than the rest of the world). >>> >>> Jared, don’t generalize. >>> >>> True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not >>> start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them >>> didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting. >>> >>> — >>> CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 >>> (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course) >>
RE: eBay is looking for network heavies...
Kind of a cack-handed way of doing MTR, but surprising to find that it's been around since NT. New option for some of the troubleshooting from client boxen. Guess you had to buy into some of that MS certification stuff. Gee, I'll have to ask Davis and Brian if it was in one of their Windows Secrets books;^) Frank Whiteley -Original Message- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Larry Sheldon Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 8:25 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: eBay is looking for network heavies... On 6/5/2015 23:35, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: > 'pathping' . learned something new today... Did not know such a > command existed in windows.. > > Been working with computers for over 30 years, while I don't care as > to what it says about how much I know, but it sure reminds me that > that their is always something more that one can learn ! > > > Thank You. > > :) +1 Amazing. -- sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Juvenal)
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On 6/5/2015 23:35, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: 'pathping' . learned something new today... Did not know such a command existed in windows.. Been working with computers for over 30 years, while I don't care as to what it says about how much I know, but it sure reminds me that that their is always something more that one can learn ! Thank You. :) +1 Amazing. -- sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Juvenal)
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On 06/06/2015 07:17 PM, John Fraizer wrote: And if you've got a cert, you had better know your stuff because if your cert says you're an EXPERT. I'm gonna expect you to be one! X -- math quantity denoting the unknown SPURT -- drip of water under pressure X-SPURT -- unknown drip under pressure
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
Just to be clear, CERTS are NOT a requirement for these positions. They will head-of-line someone for a phone screen. THAT IS ALL! And if you've got a cert, you had better know your stuff because if your cert says you're an EXPERT. I'm gonna expect you to be one! John Fraizer --Sent from my Android phone. Please excuse any typos. On Jun 6, 2015 5:50 PM, "Randy" wrote: > $employers don't help in this regard either by requiring said certs. Such > requirements; IMO, lead to folks preparing/passing such tests just for > $day_job only without any real desire to understand how > things-actually-work&why. > > > > - Original Message - > From: John Fraizer > To: Łukasz Bromirski > Cc: nanog@nanog.org > Sent: Friday, June 5, 2015 5:55 PM > Subject: Re: eBay is looking for network heavies... > > Folks, > > It's just a piece of paper in my opinion. A person either knows their > stuff or they don't. Less than 5min on a phone screen and I will know if > they "bought" their certification(s) or earned them. Sadly, I've spoken to > far too many who give some validation to Jared's comment. I'm wondering how > many proctors have been paid off or if people are buying fake id's for > smart people and paying them to sit for the tests posing as them. > > John Fraizer > --Sent from my Android phone. > Please excuse any typos. > On Jun 5, 2015 5:45 PM, "Łukasz Bromirski" wrote: > > > > > > On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch wrote: > > > > > > > > >> On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer wrote: > > >> > > >> Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a > > piece > > >> of paper every time! > > > > > > Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is > that > > > the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual > > > troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are > > > different than the rest of the world). > > > > Jared, don’t generalize. > > > > True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not > > start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them > > didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting. > > > > — > > CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 > > (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course) >
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
$employers don't help in this regard either by requiring said certs. Such requirements; IMO, lead to folks preparing/passing such tests just for $day_job only without any real desire to understand how things-actually-work&why. - Original Message - From: John Fraizer To: Łukasz Bromirski Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Friday, June 5, 2015 5:55 PM Subject: Re: eBay is looking for network heavies... Folks, It's just a piece of paper in my opinion. A person either knows their stuff or they don't. Less than 5min on a phone screen and I will know if they "bought" their certification(s) or earned them. Sadly, I've spoken to far too many who give some validation to Jared's comment. I'm wondering how many proctors have been paid off or if people are buying fake id's for smart people and paying them to sit for the tests posing as them. John Fraizer --Sent from my Android phone. Please excuse any typos. On Jun 5, 2015 5:45 PM, "Łukasz Bromirski" wrote: > > > On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch wrote: > > > > > >> On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer wrote: > >> > >> Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a > piece > >> of paper every time! > > > > Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is that > > the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual > > troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are > > different than the rest of the world). > > Jared, don’t generalize. > > True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not > start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them > didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting. > > — > CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 > (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course)
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 6:53 AM, Brandon Ross wrote: >> I also concur. There is most certainly a negative correlation between certs >> and clue in my experience, having met 10s of certificate holders. > > Oh good. Maybe my total lack of ever pursuing one of these things is actually > a qualification of sorts? > Meh, certs can be fun. I've never taken one and not learned something. I don't think someone should put me in charge of designing a SOC because I have a Security+ or that BestBuy should trust people with (or w/o) and A+ to fix computers. But I'll bet the journey people took to get that cert taught them something. Having gained the cert, does that mean it doesn't belong on a resume? No. If you hire someone with just a cert to manage your network, does that put you among the biggest dumbasses to ever hire someone? Absolutely. Further, HR who look for certs are probably doing themselves a disservice but if it works for them, who am I to tell them otherwise. If you want to work for the company, get the cert or don't.
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
Reminds me of: http://dilbert.com/strip/2000-08-31 At 12:27 PM 06/06/2015, Dave Taht wrote: On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 6:53 AM, Brandon Ross wrote: > I also concur. There is most certainly a negative correlation between certs > and clue in my experience, having met 10s of certificate holders. Oh good. Maybe my total lack of ever pursuing one of these things is actually a qualification of sorts? I keep searching things like dice and monster out of perverse bemusement, trying to find anyone actually looking for my actual skillset. -- Dave Täht What will it take to vastly improve wifi for everyone? https://plus.google.com/u/0/explore/makewififast
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 6:53 AM, Brandon Ross wrote: > I also concur. There is most certainly a negative correlation between certs > and clue in my experience, having met 10s of certificate holders. Oh good. Maybe my total lack of ever pursuing one of these things is actually a qualification of sorts? I keep searching things like dice and monster out of perverse bemusement, trying to find anyone actually looking for my actual skillset. -- Dave Täht What will it take to vastly improve wifi for everyone? https://plus.google.com/u/0/explore/makewififast
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
Sort of back-tracking on the OP JD - is one to derive from the posting and requirements for the job(s) that: 1. the need arises because of the eBay - PayPal split? 2. is PayPal leaving with the openstack [need for] expertise and associated IaaS parts (http://www.openstack.org/user-stories/paypal/), while eBay is keeping a more traditional infra setup? Stefan On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 8:53 AM, Brandon Ross wrote: > I also concur. There is most certainly a negative correlation between > certs and clue in my experience, having met 10s of certificate holders. > > Long ago when the MCSE was more popular, I actually started putting "MCSE > need not apply" on job postings because everyone I interviewed that had one > was not just clue challenged, but had negative clue. > > > On Fri, 5 Jun 2015, jim deleskie wrote: > > Based on the number of "certified" people I've interviewed over the last >> 20yr, my default view lines up with Jared's 100% >> >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 10:38 PM, Mike Hale >> wrote: >> >> We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute. >>> On Jun 5, 2015 6:28 PM, wrote: >>> >>> On 5 Jun 2015, at 17:45, Łukasz Bromirski wrote: On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch wrote: > >> >> On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer wrote: >> >>> >>> Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a >>> piece >>> of paper every time! >>> >>> >> Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is >> > that >>> the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual >> troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are >> different than the rest of the world). >> >> > Jared, don’t generalize. > > True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not > start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them > didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting. > > 't We had one CCIE at a previous job who just didn't "click" no matter how much we tried to train on the architecture. Eventually in one backbone event, he kept saying that the problem couldn't be with a given router because "traceroute worked." When it was pointed out that the potential fault wouldn't cause traceroute to fail, we got a very puzzled look. We then asked him to explain how traceroute worked. He spectacularly >>> failed. >>> It became a tongue-in-cheek interview question. What was boggling was >>> the >>> number of *IE's that failed trying to explain traceroute's mechanics. My test, as crass as it is. If your CV headlines with a JCIE/CCIE, I am pretty certain that you have very little real-world experience. If it's >>> a >>> footnote somewhere, that's ok. Christopher — > CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 > (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course) > > -- 李柯睿 Avt tace, avt loqvere meliora silentio Check my PGP key here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.asc Current vCard here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.vcf keybase: https://keybase.io/liljenstolpe >>> >> > -- > Brandon Ross Yahoo & AIM: > BrandonNRoss > +1-404-635-6667ICQ: > 2269442 > Skype: > brandonross > Schedule a meeting: http://www.doodle.com/bross >
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
I also concur. There is most certainly a negative correlation between certs and clue in my experience, having met 10s of certificate holders. Long ago when the MCSE was more popular, I actually started putting "MCSE need not apply" on job postings because everyone I interviewed that had one was not just clue challenged, but had negative clue. On Fri, 5 Jun 2015, jim deleskie wrote: Based on the number of "certified" people I've interviewed over the last 20yr, my default view lines up with Jared's 100% On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 10:38 PM, Mike Hale wrote: We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute. On Jun 5, 2015 6:28 PM, wrote: On 5 Jun 2015, at 17:45, Łukasz Bromirski wrote: On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch wrote: On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer wrote: Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece of paper every time! Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is that the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are different than the rest of the world). Jared, don’t generalize. True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting. 't We had one CCIE at a previous job who just didn't "click" no matter how much we tried to train on the architecture. Eventually in one backbone event, he kept saying that the problem couldn't be with a given router because "traceroute worked." When it was pointed out that the potential fault wouldn't cause traceroute to fail, we got a very puzzled look. We then asked him to explain how traceroute worked. He spectacularly failed. It became a tongue-in-cheek interview question. What was boggling was the number of *IE's that failed trying to explain traceroute's mechanics. My test, as crass as it is. If your CV headlines with a JCIE/CCIE, I am pretty certain that you have very little real-world experience. If it's a footnote somewhere, that's ok. Christopher — CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course) -- 李柯睿 Avt tace, avt loqvere meliora silentio Check my PGP key here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.asc Current vCard here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.vcf keybase: https://keybase.io/liljenstolpe -- Brandon Ross Yahoo & AIM: BrandonNRoss +1-404-635-6667ICQ: 2269442 Skype: brandonross Schedule a meeting: http://www.doodle.com/bross
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 8:33 AM, tvest wrote: > You are such an optimist ;-) > > Sometimes those who can remember the past get to repeat it anyway. > I remember seeing a slide deck for devs saying all new web apps are recreating mail, write, wall, and finger (the person posted it on FB, so of course I can't find it for ref)
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On 06/06/2015 03:32 AM, jim deleskie wrote: I remember you asking me who Jon was:) I have since added to my list of interview questions... sad but the number of people with clue is declining not increasing. It's not a question of clue, but of history. How many CS grads are exposed to the details of the development of the Internet and Information Technology? Many of us know of Jon Postel because we experienced and appreciated his work for the Internet when he was alive. Ditto Richard Stevens. Now I ask you: how many students would delve into history that deeply? How many universities/colleges/trade schools would include that information in their curriculum? Moving on...Larry Wall -- I'm finding that the new generation of people don't use Perl any more, instead favoring Python for some reason. Indeed, my current job's management insists I learn Python, even though Perl has much more support for Cisco equipment as part of CPAN. So, given that bias, it wouldn't be surprising that the up-and-coming wouldn't know who invented a tool they don't use. Guido van Rossum, they know, maybe. People exposed only to Windows may or may not know about Paul Vixie's contributions to our world -- again, it's history that would be arcane for those who never dabbled in Unix or Unix-like systems, or didn't follow Internet politics. (Yes, BIND is implemented on Windows systems -- I consult to an ISP who suffers through the pain caused by the decision to do so -- but using a piece of software and knowing the history of that software are two different things, particularly when a person isn't doing DNS admin full-time.) If your goal is to play "Gotcha!", you need to go farther afield. What is "ARPAnet", and what role did it play in the development of the Internet? What is "XNS"? What is "ThickNet"? "ThinNet"? Expand and explain CTS, RTS, CD/DCD, MR, TR, RC, TC. What is V.35? HSSI? ITU? T1 and E1, and what is the difference? And so on through ISO level 1. Who was Thomas Watson? Who was Hollerith...and how did his invention trace its origins to silk tapestry? What problem was Hollerith trying to solve? Who is (were) Ken Olson and Harlan Anderson? Throw in Ada Lovelace and Grace Hopper. What is the significance of a 30 centimeter piece of twisted-pair wire, which Admiral Hopper would hand out at lectures? What is COBOL? (And I'm not referring to the planet Kobol that is part of the Battlestar Galactia universe.) Who were Ken Thompson, Brian Kernighan, Dennis Ritchie, and Phillip Plauger? Bill Joy? And so on, and so on, second star to the right and straight on 'till morning... Here's the topper: who was (is) Al Gore, and what part did he play in the birth of the Internet as we know it today? Try not to howl as some of the answers you will get.
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
You are such an optimist ;-) Sometimes those who can remember the past get to repeat it anyway. TV On June 6, 2015 6:53:20 AM EDT, Dorian Kim wrote: >"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it” > > > -Santayana > >Quite relevant in our industry that seems be more hell bent on >rehashing ideas >and plot lines than Hollywood. > >-dorian > > >> On Jun 6, 2015, at 6:43 AM, shawn wilson wrote: >> >> My first thought on reading that was "who the hell cares if a person >> knows about internet culture". But than I had to reconsider - it's a >> very apt way of telling if someone read the right books :) >> >> I would also add Ritchie, Thompson, and Diffie to that list (since >you >> ask about Larry, it's only appropriate). >> >> On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 6:32 AM, jim deleskie >wrote: >>> I remember you asking me who Jon was :) I have since added to my >list of >>> interview questions... sad but the number of people with clue is >declining >>> not increasing. >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Joe Hamelin wrote: >>> Back in 2000 at Amazon, HR somehow decided to have me do the phone interviews for neteng. I'd go through questions on routing and >what not, then at the end I would ask questions like, "Who was Jon Postel? >Who is Larry Wall? Who is Paul Vixie? What are layers 8 & 9? Explain the >RTFM protocol. What is NANOG?" Those answers (or long silences) told >me more about the candidate than most of the technical questions. -- Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474 -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it” -Santayana Quite relevant in our industry that seems be more hell bent on rehashing ideas and plot lines than Hollywood. -dorian > On Jun 6, 2015, at 6:43 AM, shawn wilson wrote: > > My first thought on reading that was "who the hell cares if a person > knows about internet culture". But than I had to reconsider - it's a > very apt way of telling if someone read the right books :) > > I would also add Ritchie, Thompson, and Diffie to that list (since you > ask about Larry, it's only appropriate). > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 6:32 AM, jim deleskie wrote: >> I remember you asking me who Jon was :) I have since added to my list of >> interview questions... sad but the number of people with clue is declining >> not increasing. >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Joe Hamelin wrote: >> >>> Back in 2000 at Amazon, HR somehow decided to have me do the phone >>> interviews for neteng. I'd go through questions on routing and what not, >>> then at the end I would ask questions like, "Who was Jon Postel? Who is >>> Larry Wall? Who is Paul Vixie? What are layers 8 & 9? Explain the RTFM >>> protocol. What is NANOG?" Those answers (or long silences) told me more >>> about the candidate than most of the technical questions. >>> >>> -- >>> Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474 >>>
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
My first thought on reading that was "who the hell cares if a person knows about internet culture". But than I had to reconsider - it's a very apt way of telling if someone read the right books :) I would also add Ritchie, Thompson, and Diffie to that list (since you ask about Larry, it's only appropriate). On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 6:32 AM, jim deleskie wrote: > I remember you asking me who Jon was :) I have since added to my list of > interview questions... sad but the number of people with clue is declining > not increasing. > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Joe Hamelin wrote: > >> Back in 2000 at Amazon, HR somehow decided to have me do the phone >> interviews for neteng. I'd go through questions on routing and what not, >> then at the end I would ask questions like, "Who was Jon Postel? Who is >> Larry Wall? Who is Paul Vixie? What are layers 8 & 9? Explain the RTFM >> protocol. What is NANOG?" Those answers (or long silences) told me more >> about the candidate than most of the technical questions. >> >> -- >> Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474 >>
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
I remember you asking me who Jon was :) I have since added to my list of interview questions... sad but the number of people with clue is declining not increasing. On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Joe Hamelin wrote: > Back in 2000 at Amazon, HR somehow decided to have me do the phone > interviews for neteng. I'd go through questions on routing and what not, > then at the end I would ask questions like, "Who was Jon Postel? Who is > Larry Wall? Who is Paul Vixie? What are layers 8 & 9? Explain the RTFM > protocol. What is NANOG?" Those answers (or long silences) told me more > about the candidate than most of the technical questions. > > -- > Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474 >
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 9:57 PM, James Laszko wrote: > I asked one of my guys to tracert in windows for something and he executed > pathping. I have never seen that in 25 years Go figure! > Yep, I learned something new (though IDK I'll ever use it - I'm guessing it's useless trivia, esp since I haven't done much with Windows in ~6 years now). My default traceroute is: nmap -Pn -p0 --traceroute
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
--- j...@nethead.com wrote: From: Joe Hamelin Back in 2000 at Amazon, HR somehow decided to have me do the phone interviews for neteng. I'd go through questions on routing and what not, then at the end I would ask questions like, "Who was Jon Postel? Who is Larry Wall? Who is Paul Vixie? What are layers 8 & 9? Explain the RTFM protocol. What is NANOG?" Those answers (or long silences) told me more about the candidate than most of the technical questions. --- Now that's a good interview question series. It shows that the person cares, rather than just doing a job. scott ps. I never thought of RTFM as a protocol, but I like it. It's a protocol between engineers. The conservative in what you send part... :-)
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Elmar K. Bins wrote: > eyeronic.des...@gmail.com (Mike Hale) wrote: > > > We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute. > > None of course! No, they read the man page, of course! -- Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474 > >
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
Back in 2000 at Amazon, HR somehow decided to have me do the phone interviews for neteng. I'd go through questions on routing and what not, then at the end I would ask questions like, "Who was Jon Postel? Who is Larry Wall? Who is Paul Vixie? What are layers 8 & 9? Explain the RTFM protocol. What is NANOG?" Those answers (or long silences) told me more about the candidate than most of the technical questions. -- Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
eyeronic.des...@gmail.com (Mike Hale) wrote: > We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute. None of course!
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
'pathping' . learned something new today... Did not know such a command existed in windows.. Been working with computers for over 30 years, while I don't care as to what it says about how much I know, but it sure reminds me that that their is always something more that one can learn ! Thank You. :) Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet & Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, FL 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net - Original Message - > From: "James Laszko" > To: "Mike Hale" > Cc: "NANOG Operators' Group" > Sent: Friday, June 5, 2015 9:57:38 PM > Subject: Re: eBay is looking for network heavies... > > I asked one of my guys to tracert in windows for something and he executed > pathping. I have never seen that in 25 years Go figure! > > > James Laszko > Mythos Technology Inc > jam...@mythostech.com > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jun 5, 2015, at 18:40, Mike Hale wrote: > > > > We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute. > >> On Jun 5, 2015 6:28 PM, wrote: > >> > >> On 5 Jun 2015, at 17:45, Łukasz Bromirski wrote: > >> > >> On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a > >>>>> piece > >>>>> of paper every time! > >>>> > >>>> Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is that > >>>> the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual > >>>> troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are > >>>> different than the rest of the world). > >>> > >>> Jared, don’t generalize. > >>> > >>> True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not > >>> start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them > >>> didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting. > >> > >> 't > >> > >> We had one CCIE at a previous job who just didn't "click" no matter how > >> much we tried to train on the architecture. Eventually in one backbone > >> event, he kept saying that the problem couldn't be with a given router > >> because "traceroute worked." When it was pointed out that the potential > >> fault wouldn't cause traceroute to fail, we got a very puzzled look. We > >> then asked him to explain how traceroute worked. He spectacularly failed. > >> > >> It became a tongue-in-cheek interview question. What was boggling was the > >> number of *IE's that failed trying to explain traceroute's mechanics. > >> > >> My test, as crass as it is. If your CV headlines with a JCIE/CCIE, I am > >> pretty certain that you have very little real-world experience. If it's a > >> footnote somewhere, that's ok. > >> > >>Christopher > >> > >> > >> > >>> — > >>> CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 > >>> (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course) > >> > >> > >> -- > >> 李柯睿 > >> Avt tace, avt loqvere meliora silentio > >> Check my PGP key here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.asc > >> Current vCard here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.vcf > >> keybase: https://keybase.io/liljenstolpe > >> >
interviewing [was] Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
- It became a tongue-in-cheek interview question. What was boggling was the number of *IE's that failed trying to explain traceroute's mechanics. One thing I have done in the past is encourage the person to succeed at the interview, rather than see how they fail. I do this because some folks don't interview well, but they really know their stuff or have other attributes that make them desirable, such as a great work ethic and a desire to learn. One way to do this is find out how they'd go about solving a problem, rather than what find out what they've memorized. :: We need a pool on what percentage of readers just :: googled traceroute. Exactly. I've read ras' paper several times, but I don't memorize it. If I need to look something about it up for some reason, I know where to go: https://www.nanog.org/meetings/nanog47/presentations/Sunday/RAS_Traceroute_N47_Sun.pdf Ask me in an interview when I'm nervous and I stumble like a nerd asking a girl out on a date. Say something a little silly then try to recover only to say something more dumb finally trying to recover from both only to say something stupid and finally throwing up my hands in disgust knowing I'm not going to get the date/job. :-) This happened to me around 6-8 months ago. scott
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
whois traceroute … manning On 5June2015Friday, at 18:38, Mike Hale wrote: > We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute. > >
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On 06/05/2015 06:38 PM, Mike Hale wrote: We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute. I didn't google traceroute. Didn't need to. Instead, I drew on the knowledge I gained when Clifford and I wrote _Linux IP Stacks Commentary_. Unfortunately, the Steven's books are not required reading in CCIE prep.
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
I asked one of my guys to tracert in windows for something and he executed pathping. I have never seen that in 25 years Go figure! James Laszko Mythos Technology Inc jam...@mythostech.com Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 5, 2015, at 18:40, Mike Hale wrote: > > We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute. >> On Jun 5, 2015 6:28 PM, wrote: >> >> On 5 Jun 2015, at 17:45, Łukasz Bromirski wrote: >> >> On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch wrote: > On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer wrote: > > Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a > piece > of paper every time! Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is that the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are different than the rest of the world). >>> >>> Jared, don’t generalize. >>> >>> True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not >>> start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them >>> didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting. >> >> 't >> >> We had one CCIE at a previous job who just didn't "click" no matter how >> much we tried to train on the architecture. Eventually in one backbone >> event, he kept saying that the problem couldn't be with a given router >> because "traceroute worked." When it was pointed out that the potential >> fault wouldn't cause traceroute to fail, we got a very puzzled look. We >> then asked him to explain how traceroute worked. He spectacularly failed. >> >> It became a tongue-in-cheek interview question. What was boggling was the >> number of *IE's that failed trying to explain traceroute's mechanics. >> >> My test, as crass as it is. If your CV headlines with a JCIE/CCIE, I am >> pretty certain that you have very little real-world experience. If it's a >> footnote somewhere, that's ok. >> >>Christopher >> >> >> >>> — >>> CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 >>> (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course) >> >> >> -- >> 李柯睿 >> Avt tace, avt loqvere meliora silentio >> Check my PGP key here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.asc >> Current vCard here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.vcf >> keybase: https://keybase.io/liljenstolpe >>
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
Based on the number of "certified" people I've interviewed over the last 20yr, my default view lines up with Jared's 100% On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 10:38 PM, Mike Hale wrote: > We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute. > On Jun 5, 2015 6:28 PM, wrote: > > > On 5 Jun 2015, at 17:45, Łukasz Bromirski wrote: > > > > On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer wrote: > > Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a > piece > of paper every time! > > >>> > >>> Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is > that > >>> the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual > >>> troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are > >>> different than the rest of the world). > >>> > >> > >> Jared, don’t generalize. > >> > >> True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not > >> start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them > >> didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting. > >> > > > > 't > > > > We had one CCIE at a previous job who just didn't "click" no matter how > > much we tried to train on the architecture. Eventually in one backbone > > event, he kept saying that the problem couldn't be with a given router > > because "traceroute worked." When it was pointed out that the potential > > fault wouldn't cause traceroute to fail, we got a very puzzled look. We > > then asked him to explain how traceroute worked. He spectacularly > failed. > > > > It became a tongue-in-cheek interview question. What was boggling was > the > > number of *IE's that failed trying to explain traceroute's mechanics. > > > > My test, as crass as it is. If your CV headlines with a JCIE/CCIE, I am > > pretty certain that you have very little real-world experience. If it's > a > > footnote somewhere, that's ok. > > > > Christopher > > > > > > > >> — > >> CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 > >> (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course) > >> > > > > > > -- > > 李柯睿 > > Avt tace, avt loqvere meliora silentio > > Check my PGP key here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.asc > > Current vCard here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.vcf > > keybase: https://keybase.io/liljenstolpe > > >
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
We need a pool on what percentage of readers just googled traceroute. On Jun 5, 2015 6:28 PM, wrote: > On 5 Jun 2015, at 17:45, Łukasz Bromirski wrote: > > On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer wrote: Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece of paper every time! >>> >>> Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is that >>> the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual >>> troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are >>> different than the rest of the world). >>> >> >> Jared, don’t generalize. >> >> True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not >> start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them >> didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting. >> > > 't > > We had one CCIE at a previous job who just didn't "click" no matter how > much we tried to train on the architecture. Eventually in one backbone > event, he kept saying that the problem couldn't be with a given router > because "traceroute worked." When it was pointed out that the potential > fault wouldn't cause traceroute to fail, we got a very puzzled look. We > then asked him to explain how traceroute worked. He spectacularly failed. > > It became a tongue-in-cheek interview question. What was boggling was the > number of *IE's that failed trying to explain traceroute's mechanics. > > My test, as crass as it is. If your CV headlines with a JCIE/CCIE, I am > pretty certain that you have very little real-world experience. If it's a > footnote somewhere, that's ok. > > Christopher > > > >> — >> CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 >> (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course) >> > > > -- > 李柯睿 > Avt tace, avt loqvere meliora silentio > Check my PGP key here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.asc > Current vCard here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.vcf > keybase: https://keybase.io/liljenstolpe >
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
It's been over a decade since I was an active participant on NANOG. I didn't know that the NANOG-JOBS list existed. Sometimes it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission though. I guess it's a good thing Susan H. isn't here to throw me in NANOG jail, huh? John Fraizer --Sent from my Android phone. Please excuse any typos. On Jun 5, 2015 6:23 PM, "ryanL" wrote: > we're allowed to recruit on nanog?... > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 4:19 PM John Fraizer wrote: > >> Hello All, >> >> eBay is looking for folks to join our Site Network Engineering team. eBay >> Site Network Engineering is responsible for the eBay SITE network from ToR >> to Peering Edge. You won't be bored. You will be challenged. You will >> have fun! >> This position is located in San Jose, California @ eBay HQ although >> exception may be made for extremely well qualified candidates. >> >> >> *Qualifications:* >> >>- 7+ years of experience in network design and implementation >>- 7+ years working at the highest level of technical escalation >>- Expert level multi-vendor experience in routing & switching with >>Arista, Cisco, Juniper, Nexus platforms >>- Expert level understanding of IPv4 & IPv6. Bonus points if you can >>tell me about IPv8. (The old guard will get that joke.) >>- Expert level BGP and OSPF >>- Understanding of multicast technologies such as PIM-SM and PIM-BiDir >>- Understanding of QoS and implementation strategies >>- Experience with L2 technologies such as MLAG and VPC >>- Experience with cloud architectures and network automation >>- Experience with SDN technologies such as VXLAN, NVGRE and Open >> vSwitch >>- Expert level troubleshooting skills >>- Functional knowledge of and comfort working in *nix environments >>- Ability to script in Bash, Perl, or other relevant languages. (Bonus >>for Python) >>- Excellent communications and documentation skills >> >> Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece >> of paper every time! >> BSCS or other 4-year degree desired - may be substituted with relevant >> work >> experience >> >> >> Translation of the above: Are you considered an expert by your industry >> peers? We know your family thinks you're a genius. Do your peers in the >> networking community agree? Do you want work on the bleeding edge of >> technology, playing with the biggest, baddest and bestest toys? Are you a >> team player who can also work alone providing creative solutions to >> complex >> problems using your "out of the box" thinking? Are you tired of being the >> "smartest guy in the room" when you're at work? Well then, I've got the >> job you're looking for! The above qualifications are the "wish list". >> That should give you a feel of whether or not you're qualified for this >> position though. You know your own skill set better than anyone else. >> >> Just be advised: Please don't be a "buzzword bandit" on your CV. If you >> list a skill or experience, its fair game to ask you about these - in >> depth >> - during your phone screen and any subsequent in-person interviews. >> >> Interested and Qualified candidates, please forward your CVs to jfraizer >> at >> ebay dot com. >> >> eBay, Inc is an Equal Opportunity Employer >> >> -- >> John Fraizer >> MTS2 - eBay Site Network Engineering >> >
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On 5 Jun 2015, at 17:45, Łukasz Bromirski wrote: On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch wrote: On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer wrote: Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece of paper every time! Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is that the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are different than the rest of the world). Jared, don’t generalize. True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting. 't We had one CCIE at a previous job who just didn't "click" no matter how much we tried to train on the architecture. Eventually in one backbone event, he kept saying that the problem couldn't be with a given router because "traceroute worked." When it was pointed out that the potential fault wouldn't cause traceroute to fail, we got a very puzzled look. We then asked him to explain how traceroute worked. He spectacularly failed. It became a tongue-in-cheek interview question. What was boggling was the number of *IE's that failed trying to explain traceroute's mechanics. My test, as crass as it is. If your CV headlines with a JCIE/CCIE, I am pretty certain that you have very little real-world experience. If it's a footnote somewhere, that's ok. Christopher — CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course) -- 李柯睿 Avt tace, avt loqvere meliora silentio Check my PGP key here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.asc Current vCard here: http://www.asgaard.org/cdl/cdl.vcf keybase: https://keybase.io/liljenstolpe
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
we're allowed to recruit on nanog?... On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 4:19 PM John Fraizer wrote: > Hello All, > > eBay is looking for folks to join our Site Network Engineering team. eBay > Site Network Engineering is responsible for the eBay SITE network from ToR > to Peering Edge. You won't be bored. You will be challenged. You will > have fun! > This position is located in San Jose, California @ eBay HQ although > exception may be made for extremely well qualified candidates. > > > *Qualifications:* > >- 7+ years of experience in network design and implementation >- 7+ years working at the highest level of technical escalation >- Expert level multi-vendor experience in routing & switching with >Arista, Cisco, Juniper, Nexus platforms >- Expert level understanding of IPv4 & IPv6. Bonus points if you can >tell me about IPv8. (The old guard will get that joke.) >- Expert level BGP and OSPF >- Understanding of multicast technologies such as PIM-SM and PIM-BiDir >- Understanding of QoS and implementation strategies >- Experience with L2 technologies such as MLAG and VPC >- Experience with cloud architectures and network automation >- Experience with SDN technologies such as VXLAN, NVGRE and Open vSwitch >- Expert level troubleshooting skills >- Functional knowledge of and comfort working in *nix environments >- Ability to script in Bash, Perl, or other relevant languages. (Bonus >for Python) >- Excellent communications and documentation skills > > Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece > of paper every time! > BSCS or other 4-year degree desired - may be substituted with relevant work > experience > > > Translation of the above: Are you considered an expert by your industry > peers? We know your family thinks you're a genius. Do your peers in the > networking community agree? Do you want work on the bleeding edge of > technology, playing with the biggest, baddest and bestest toys? Are you a > team player who can also work alone providing creative solutions to complex > problems using your "out of the box" thinking? Are you tired of being the > "smartest guy in the room" when you're at work? Well then, I've got the > job you're looking for! The above qualifications are the "wish list". > That should give you a feel of whether or not you're qualified for this > position though. You know your own skill set better than anyone else. > > Just be advised: Please don't be a "buzzword bandit" on your CV. If you > list a skill or experience, its fair game to ask you about these - in depth > - during your phone screen and any subsequent in-person interviews. > > Interested and Qualified candidates, please forward your CVs to jfraizer at > ebay dot com. > > eBay, Inc is an Equal Opportunity Employer > > -- > John Fraizer > MTS2 - eBay Site Network Engineering >
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
Folks, It's just a piece of paper in my opinion. A person either knows their stuff or they don't. Less than 5min on a phone screen and I will know if they "bought" their certification(s) or earned them. Sadly, I've spoken to far too many who give some validation to Jared's comment. I'm wondering how many proctors have been paid off or if people are buying fake id's for smart people and paying them to sit for the tests posing as them. John Fraizer --Sent from my Android phone. Please excuse any typos. On Jun 5, 2015 5:45 PM, "Łukasz Bromirski" wrote: > > > On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch wrote: > > > > > >> On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer wrote: > >> > >> Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a > piece > >> of paper every time! > > > > Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is that > > the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual > > troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are > > different than the rest of the world). > > Jared, don’t generalize. > > True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not > start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them > didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting. > > — > CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 > (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course)
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
> On 06 Jun 2015, at 02:26, Jared Mauch wrote: > > >> On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer wrote: >> >> Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece >> of paper every time! > > Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is that > the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual > troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are > different than the rest of the world). Jared, don’t generalize. True - there are people that are ‘paper’ CCIE/JNCIEs - but let’s not start a rant unless you've met tens of CCIEs/JNCIEs and all of them didn’t know a jack. About troubleshooting. — CCIE #15929 R&S/SP, CCDE #2012::17 (not that I’d know anything about troubleshooting of course)
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
On Fri, 5 Jun 2015, Scott Weeks wrote: --- j...@op-sec.us wrote: From: John Fraizer Bonus points if you can tell me about IPv8. (The old guard will get that joke.) Long live Jim! U...Never mind... Who? Get off my stargate. :) :0 * ^From:.*(jfleming@anet\.com|ipv6nog@gmail\.com|*fleming@unety\.net) /dev/null -- Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route | therefore you are _ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
> On Jun 5, 2015, at 7:13 PM, John Fraizer wrote: > > Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece > of paper every time! Can you please put these at the back of the line? My experience is that the cisco certification (at least) is evidence of the absence of actual troubleshooting skills. (or my standards of what defines “expert” are different than the rest of the world). - Jared
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
--- j...@op-sec.us wrote: From: John Fraizer Bonus points if you can tell me about IPv8. (The old guard will get that joke.) Long live Jim! U...Never mind... :-) scott
Re: eBay is looking for network heavies...
Please use below mailing list for job posting http://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs Mehmet > On Jun 5, 2015, at 19:13, John Fraizer wrote: > > Hello All, > > eBay is looking for folks to join our Site Network Engineering team. eBay > Site Network Engineering is responsible for the eBay SITE network from ToR > to Peering Edge. You won't be bored. You will be challenged. You will > have fun! > This position is located in San Jose, California @ eBay HQ although > exception may be made for extremely well qualified candidates. > > > *Qualifications:* > > - 7+ years of experience in network design and implementation > - 7+ years working at the highest level of technical escalation > - Expert level multi-vendor experience in routing & switching with > Arista, Cisco, Juniper, Nexus platforms > - Expert level understanding of IPv4 & IPv6. Bonus points if you can > tell me about IPv8. (The old guard will get that joke.) > - Expert level BGP and OSPF > - Understanding of multicast technologies such as PIM-SM and PIM-BiDir > - Understanding of QoS and implementation strategies > - Experience with L2 technologies such as MLAG and VPC > - Experience with cloud architectures and network automation > - Experience with SDN technologies such as VXLAN, NVGRE and Open vSwitch > - Expert level troubleshooting skills > - Functional knowledge of and comfort working in *nix environments > - Ability to script in Bash, Perl, or other relevant languages. (Bonus > for Python) > - Excellent communications and documentation skills > > Head of line for CCIE / JNCIE but knowledge and experience trumps a piece > of paper every time! > BSCS or other 4-year degree desired - may be substituted with relevant work > experience > > > Translation of the above: Are you considered an expert by your industry > peers? We know your family thinks you're a genius. Do your peers in the > networking community agree? Do you want work on the bleeding edge of > technology, playing with the biggest, baddest and bestest toys? Are you a > team player who can also work alone providing creative solutions to complex > problems using your "out of the box" thinking? Are you tired of being the > "smartest guy in the room" when you're at work? Well then, I've got the > job you're looking for! The above qualifications are the "wish list". > That should give you a feel of whether or not you're qualified for this > position though. You know your own skill set better than anyone else. > > Just be advised: Please don't be a "buzzword bandit" on your CV. If you > list a skill or experience, its fair game to ask you about these - in depth > - during your phone screen and any subsequent in-person interviews. > > Interested and Qualified candidates, please forward your CVs to jfraizer at > ebay dot com. > > eBay, Inc is an Equal Opportunity Employer > > -- > John Fraizer > MTS2 - eBay Site Network Engineering
