Re: [newbie] Existential Linux Question
On Mon, 2004-08-30 at 01:35, Richard Urwin wrote: Sorry if I jumped down your throat. I'm following this SCO et al debacle fairly closely, and you hit a trigger phrase. (as you know, Ken Brown, [probably bank-rolled by MS,] has accused Linus of copying MINIX when creating Linux. That would be an unlicensed use of MINIX and if it were true would call into question the legality of Linux.) The developer of Minix, Andrew Tanenbaum, has stated that this is not the case. See his comments at: http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/brown/ and http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/brown/followup/ -- pm We can learn even from our enemies. Ovid, Metamorphoses Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] Existential Linux Question
On Sun, 2004-08-29 at 19:51, Kaj Haulrich wrote: On Monday 30 August 2004 00:35, Richard Urwin wrote: Sorry if I jumped down your throat. I'm following this SCO et al debacle fairly closely, and you hit a trigger phrase. (as you know, Ken Brown, [probably bank-rolled by MS,] has accused Linus of copying MINIX when creating Linux. That would be an unlicensed use of MINIX and if it were true would call into question the legality of Linux.) Linus wrote wrote the first version of his code on Minix, yes. Does that mean, that if someone writes a love-letter using Microsoft Word that Bill and Steve have a date ? Does Remington own James Joyce's Ulysses because it was typed on a Remington typewriter ? Does Gutenberg own the Bible ? Does the goose own the works of Shakespeare because it was written with a feather ? And so on. Professor Tanenbaum - who wrote Minix - explicitely declared, that there is NO Minix-code in Linux. Period. Not only that Kaj but if memory serves me correctly I believe Tanenbaum explicitly gave Linus permission to use the code anyway. I came across a set of those emails when I was researching the legality issues surrounding the pwx.o hooks for phillips webcam. LX Kaj Haulrich. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] Existential Linux Question
On Saturday 28 Aug 2004 9:20 pm, Tom Brinkman wrote: On Saturday 28 August 2004 02:41 pm, Charlie Mahan wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 28 August 2004 13:23:01, Greg Meyer wrote: I figure this one ought to keep the conversation going for a while. I have been going through a Linux from Scratch build just for the learning experience, and something has just dawned on me. If a Linux system needs to be built from a host system, how did the first linux system get built? In other words, how can I create something that needs itself to be created? -- /g On an i386 running minix as far as I remember. I'd have to dig for links to the history but for some reason that answer is stuck in my feable and fallible old brain. C. That's my recollection too Charlie. IIRC, Linus as much as said so, and asked the minix author if it was Ok for him to modify and distribute as OSS. Fortunately the answer was yes. Careful, that's SCO territory. There is no Minix code in Linux and never was, so Linux needed no such permission, any more than you needed Linus' permission to write your email. It was, however, done that way. Read Just For Fun by Torvalds and Diamond for more information. Some time ago I did the first step of this process. I built a 32000 computer from scratch and hand assembled a simple operating system for it. (It didn't do much, just displayed a banner and had a couple of very simple commands.) That's as far as it went at the time. To go much further without driving myself crazy would have required an assembler to be written, probably on my BBC Micro in BASIC. The output from the assembler would be written to ROM, and after a fair amount of work there would be a BIOS available that will accept commands from a serial port and read and write disk sectors. Then things step up a gear. Instead of programming a ROM, the stuff you write gets sent to the BIOS and written to a disk, so the first thing you then write is a file system, then a shell, then an editor and finally an assembler. Now you can discard the other computer and use the simple operating system that you have to extend itself. It is possible to do all that work by hand, but it ties your brain in knots, and it hasn't been done that way since the fifties. Linus had it a bit easier, since he was working on a singe machine, he had the BIOS and the C compiler already, and the shell was available. But he had to implement a fair proportion of the POSIX system calls before they would run under his new OS. -- Richard Urwin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] Existential Linux Question
On Sunday 29 August 2004 05:28 am, Richard Urwin wrote: On Saturday 28 Aug 2004 9:20 pm, Tom Brinkman wrote: On Saturday 28 August 2004 02:41 pm, Charlie Mahan wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 28 August 2004 13:23:01, Greg Meyer wrote: I figure this one ought to keep the conversation going for a while. I have been going through a Linux from Scratch build just for the learning experience, and something has just dawned on me. If a Linux system needs to be built from a host system, how did the first linux system get built? In other words, how can I create something that needs itself to be created? -- /g On an i386 running minix as far as I remember. I'd have to dig for links to the history but for some reason that answer is stuck in my feable and fallible old brain. C. That's my recollection too Charlie. IIRC, Linus as much as said so, and asked the minix author if it was Ok for him to modify and distribute as OSS. Fortunately the answer was yes. Careful, that's SCO territory. There is no Minix code in Linux and never was, so Linux needed no such permission, any more than you needed Linus' permission to write your email. Andy Tanenbaum, 20 May 2004 [speaking of Ken Brown] I told him that MINIX had clearly had a huge influence on Linux in many ways, from the layout of the file system to the names in the source tree, but I didn't think Linus had used any of my code. Linus also used MINIX as his development platform initially, but there was nothing wrong with that. He asked if I objected to that and I said no, I didn't, people were free to use it as they wished for noncommercial purposes. http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/brown/ Link is mainly about SCO and Ken Brown. But you're right to admonish me Richard for my sloppy memory and wording ;) Use of MINIX (ie, 'influence', 'layout') as Linus' '[initial] development platform' doesn't equal my term of modify and distribute as OSS. Mea culpa -- Tom Brinkman Corpus Christi, Texas Proud to be an American Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] Existential Linux Question
On Monday 30 August 2004 00:35, Richard Urwin wrote: Sorry if I jumped down your throat. I'm following this SCO et al debacle fairly closely, and you hit a trigger phrase. (as you know, Ken Brown, [probably bank-rolled by MS,] has accused Linus of copying MINIX when creating Linux. That would be an unlicensed use of MINIX and if it were true would call into question the legality of Linux.) Linus wrote wrote the first version of his code on Minix, yes. Does that mean, that if someone writes a love-letter using Microsoft Word that Bill and Steve have a date ? Does Remington own James Joyce's Ulysses because it was typed on a Remington typewriter ? Does Gutenberg own the Bible ? Does the goose own the works of Shakespeare because it was written with a feather ? And so on. Professor Tanenbaum - who wrote Minix - explicitely declared, that there is NO Minix-code in Linux. Period. Kaj Haulrich. -- *sent from a 100% Microsoft-free workstation* * http://haulrich.net * *Running Linux (Mandrake 10.0) - kernel 2.6.7* Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
[newbie] Existential Linux Question
I figure this one ought to keep the conversation going for a while. I have been going through a Linux from Scratch build just for the learning experience, and something has just dawned on me. If a Linux system needs to be built from a host system, how did the first linux system get built? In other words, how can I create something that needs itself to be created? -- /g Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] Existential Linux Question
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 28 August 2004 13:23:01, Greg Meyer wrote: I figure this one ought to keep the conversation going for a while. I have been going through a Linux from Scratch build just for the learning experience, and something has just dawned on me. If a Linux system needs to be built from a host system, how did the first linux system get built? In other words, how can I create something that needs itself to be created? -- /g On an i386 running minix as far as I remember. I'd have to dig for links to the history but for some reason that answer is stuck in my feable and fallible old brain. C. - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.6.8.1-5mdk 13:38:36 up 3:42, 2 users, load average: 1.24, 0.80, 0.95 ... with liberty and justice for all ... who can afford it. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBMN/oZqvqlrLPr5YRAmqGAJwMinPuWBWSPwZKNdGlMqn17PBmggCeN95P c3DL9P72TzADjVxdaFIRrF4= =PnHK -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] Existential Linux Question
On Saturday 28 August 2004 05:11 pm, Hoyt Bailey wrote: On Saturday 28 August 2004 14:23, Greg Meyer wrote: I figure this one ought to keep the conversation going for a while. I have been going through a Linux from Scratch build just for the learning experience, and something has just dawned on me. If a Linux system needs to be built from a host system, how did the first linux system get built? In other words, how can I create something that needs itself to be created? -- /g Easy. On a UNIX system. But then how was the first UNIX system created? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] Existential Linux Question
On Saturday 28 August 2004 07:14 pm, Greg Meyer wrote: On Saturday 28 August 2004 05:11 pm, Hoyt Bailey wrote: On Saturday 28 August 2004 14:23, Greg Meyer wrote: I figure this one ought to keep the conversation going for a while. I have been going through a Linux from Scratch build just for the learning experience, and something has just dawned on me. If a Linux system needs to be built from a host system, how did the first linux system get built? In other words, how can I create something that needs itself to be created? -- /g Easy. On a UNIX system. But then how was the first UNIX system created? According to Dennis Ritchie (and he should know), it began on a PDP7 using assembly language. (See http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html). A very interesting read, particularly for those who have ever labored in the fields of RD and had troubles generating interest and funding for the latest Really Great Idea Guaranteed to Revolutionize Civilization. -- cmg Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] Existential Linux Question
On Saturday 28 August 2004 05:14 pm, Greg Meyer wrote: But then how was the first UNIX system created? On a PDP-11, likely using RSTS or RSX-11. It's really a 'bootstrapping' process (called so because you're lifting yourself by your bootstraps). From bare iron you write a loader that loads from something simple - old times it was paper tape. On the first paper tape you have a very simple control program, all it might do is execute other programs and manage devices a bit. Using that you write the machine language code to write an assembler, then use the assembler to write better programs (maybe a disk driver and a file system), then use the improved tools to write a better control program, then an operating system, etc. With outside hardware you can write a lot of the system on another computer and have the advantage of terminals, editors, compilers, linkers - file systems! Build things and put then to a floppy or hard disk, them boot it on the new system. Once in place start putting the tools and such together - for Linux it was nice because there was a whole bunch of GNU stuff that could run. The old term of bootstrapping lives - you 'boot' your system up when it powers up. First the BIOS runs, then it loads a better loader from the hard drive, then the loader load the operating system. (In the old days I had to use the front panel switches to load a simple paper tape loader, then load a loader from paper tape and then tell it to load things from the hard drive. Yup, men were *men* and computers were made of *iron* in those days.) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] Existential Linux Question
On Saturday 28 August 2004 06:25 pm, Russ Kepler wrote: On Saturday 28 August 2004 05:14 pm, Greg Meyer wrote: But then how was the first UNIX system created? On a PDP-11, likely using RSTS or RSX-11. Damn - missed the model by this: much. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] Existential Linux Question
On Saturday 28 August 2004 18:14, Greg Meyer wrote: On Saturday 28 August 2004 05:11 pm, Hoyt Bailey wrote: On Saturday 28 August 2004 14:23, Greg Meyer wrote: I figure this one ought to keep the conversation going for a while. I have been going through a Linux from Scratch build just for the learning experience, and something has just dawned on me. If a Linux system needs to be built from a host system, how did the first linux system get built? In other words, how can I create something that needs itself to be created? -- /g Easy. On a UNIX system. But then how was the first UNIX system created? That may not be accurate if you define linux as the kernel then LT developed that on a miniux system. The C language was developed on a pdp 4 running UNIX and UNIX was rewritten in C after that Linux was devloped as a subset of UNIX. END. -- Regards: Hoyt Registered Linux User # 363264 http://counter.li.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] Existential Linux Question
On Saturday 28 August 2004 09:55 pm, Hoyt Bailey wrote: On Saturday 28 August 2004 18:14, Greg Meyer wrote: On Saturday 28 August 2004 05:11 pm, Hoyt Bailey wrote: On Saturday 28 August 2004 14:23, Greg Meyer wrote: I figure this one ought to keep the conversation going for a while. I have been going through a Linux from Scratch build just for the learning experience, and something has just dawned on me. If a Linux system needs to be built from a host system, how did the first linux system get built? In other words, how can I create something that needs itself to be created? -- /g Easy. On a UNIX system. But then how was the first UNIX system created? That may not be accurate if you define linux as the kernel then LT developed that on a miniux system. The C language was developed on a pdp 4 running UNIX and UNIX was rewritten in C after that Linux was devloped as a subset of UNIX. Ha. I just realized that I could be a SCO troll trying to prove that Linux is an unauthorized version of UNIX. Thanks everyone. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] Existential Linux Question
On Sun, 2004-08-29 at 10:21, Carroll Grigsby wrote: According to Dennis Ritchie (and he should know), it began on a PDP7 using assembly language. (See http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html). A very interesting read, particularly for those who have ever labored in the fields of RD and had troubles generating interest and funding for the latest Really Great Idea Guaranteed to Revolutionize Civilization. -- cmg That was a mind boggling read. Awesome. So then 1969 was a good year after all, eh? -- stephen kuhn - proprietor __ illawarra computer services :: a kuhn media australia venture http://kma.0catch.com :: mobile 0410.728.389 Serving Sydney, The Illawarra, South Coast and Rural NSW __ * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * We expressly refuse to utilise Microsoft DRM encoded documents __ Mandrake GNU/Linux 10.0 OE/Kernel 2.6.3-7/ No Viruses here. If you keep your mind sufficiently open, people will throw a lot of rubbish into it. -- William Orton Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] Existential Linux Question
On Sunday 29 August 2004 12:12 am, Stephen Khn wrote: On Sun, 2004-08-29 at 10:21, Carroll Grigsby wrote: According to Dennis Ritchie (and he should know), it began on a PDP7 using assembly language. (See http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html). A very interesting read, particularly for those who have ever labored in the fields of RD and had troubles generating interest and funding for the latest Really Great Idea Guaranteed to Revolutionize Civilization. -- cmg That was a mind boggling read. Awesome. So then 1969 was a good year after all, eh? Stephen: Well, for me it was. It was the last summer that I could go out in the sun and not burn the top of my head. (Getting closer to the topic) What I found interesting was Ritchie's reference to programming in B, the predecessor language to C. The connection between C and Unix goes back a long, long way. -- cmg Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
