Re: [newbie] write permissions in gui.
My point exactly! This reminds me of a clever quote: The only intuitive interface is a nipple. After that, it's all learned. Whoever wrote that is a genius :-) On Sun, 29 Jul 2001 13:17, etharp wrote: my reading of this would mean that to be truly intuitive something would then be also instinctive. by your reasoning nothing involving either a keyboard or a mice could be considered intuitive. in fact about the only thing i can think of that would fit your definition would be the intuitive way a person strives to keep their head above water when drowning. not quite the same as instinctive way one breathes. I wonder if you considered that your post was kinda windows pro for a linux list, do you think? I believe in this use he was referring to the way someone never sitting before a computer will pick up and learn the methods and terminology for the OS. I personally find the command line of linux so intuitive that is scares me. ever tried to record (rec), config sound (sndconfig) now letsee to install a sound driver in winders... damn if it can be found where to open a text consol...that (to ME) is counter intuitive. On Saturday 28 July 2001 18:48, Judith Miner wrote: Sridhar wrote: You mean it isn't intuitive for a Windos user? Then you are correct. For people who have been using *nix for a while this can be very intuitive. Whoa! Intuitive has nothing to do with what OS someone knows how to use. Intuitive means known or perceived through intuition. Intuition is the act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes. Intuitive does not mean easy, once you learn how. Command lines can never be intuitive because you have to *learn* the commands first. Dragging a file onto a printer icon in order to print is intuitive. You don't have to read anything to figure out that dragging a file onto a picture of a printer will probably result in its being printed. Writing copy /b thisfile.doc lpt1 at a DOS prompt is not intuitive, though it is easy, once you know how. I don't have a clue what you'd write at a Unix prompt because, gee, it isn't intuitive.g First time computer users can generally learn an OS like GNU/Linux much faster than a Windos user, since they don't expect everything to be like Windos. Do you have evidence to support this, other than wishful thinking and some anecdotes? Evidence would require gathering large, diverse groups of users, some of them new to computing, others experienced with Windows, giving them tasks to do in GNU/Linux, and observing what they go through and how long it takes for them to complete the tasks. You would also gather their impressions of how hard or easy it was to accomplish the tasks. I taught myself MS-DOS when I was three years old. Since I had no previous conceptions on what an OS should be like, I learned rather easily. Surely you must realize that you were a very unusual three-year-old. For one thing, you must have known how to read and spell, as well as how to use a keyboard. Most three-year-olds can't read and spell at all, or if at all, not well enough to use a text-based operating system like MS-DOS. And then, once you start it, what do you do with it? Most three-year-olds aren't interested in playing with commands at a command prompt.g They want to run Jumpstart Preschool or Reader Rabbit or Sesame Street. They want to do it the way my granddaughter does: start the computer; after Windows starts, put the CD into the CD-ROM drive; the program autostarts; click your way through it; click on whatever ends it when you're done--the voices tell you what to do. Want to run something else? Put that CD into the drive and repeat the above. Computers in 1985, which is probably about when you started, were a lot different than they are today, and so are operating systems. When I tried MacOS, a very user-friendly OS, I couldn't understand it, simply because it wasn't anything like what I had tried before. And how about after you had used Mac OS for an hour? It goes beyond first impressions to how long it takes a person to become a competent user. I kept an open mind, and now I find that I can't understand the logic (if there is any) in Windos, my previous OS of choice. Doesn't sound like the mind is too open with regard to Windows.g Did you ever feel you understood how Windows works? If so, what happened to change that? This seems contradictory to the advice to take each system as it stands, without making invidious comparisons to what you already know. When it comes to troubleshooting problems, often you will _have_ to use the command line. In Linux. Now. Hopefully not forever. Hopefully not in two years. Better yet, not in one year. In Windos, if something goes wrong, the user has no way of finding out what it is. This is because things are 100% graphical.
Re: [newbie] write permissions in gui.
SNIP I was just trying to illustrate that a clear mind, like that of a child, can learn new things much more easily than one that is fettered by many habits that have accumulated over time. Like the old maxim, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. OK, NOW you've done it... got me gonig,, as someone with children your age as if it wasn't enough that I had to walk to and home from school in the driving snow, 10 miles, uphill both ways, in days before color was invented and let loose (you've seen the I love lucy episodes in Black and white for those days, like the first half of Wizard of Oz, since that was made during the time color got loose) but we CAN learn if we feel like it. (my children might agree with you though) MORE SNIP kdesu is a graphical version of su. This is confusing. When I typed kdesu at the Run line in an Alt-F2 window, nothing happened. If it were a graphical version of anything, a program would have started. When I typed kdesu at a prompt in a terminal window, I got a message I didn't understand calling for more parameters, I guess. It told me to try kdesu help (if I remember), which brought up more stuff I couldn't comprehend. Finally, I examined the command line for SuperUser File Manager in the Menu List I got by right-clicking on the K button, and there it was--kdesu kprogram! I finally understood how to use kdesu. Had I not been favored with that divine inspiration, I still wouldn't have a clue about using the graphical version of su. kind of have a hrd time with the concept of command line switches do you? tough to deal with the idea of pipes? can't seem to add more than one command at a time to a command line?
Re: [newbie] write permissions in gui.
Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: On Sun, 29 Jul 2001 09:56, Romanator wrote: On Saturday 28 July 2001 06:48 pm, Judith Miner wrote: Sridhar wrote: I taught myself MS-DOS when I was three years old. Since I had no previous conceptions on what an OS should be like, I learned rather easily. Surely you must realize that you were a very unusual three-year-old. For one thing, you must have known how to read and spell, as well as how to use a keyboard. Most three-year-olds can't read and spell at all, or if at all, not well enough to use a text-based operating system like MS-DOS. And then, once you start it, what do you do with it? Most three-year-olds aren't interested in playing with commands at a command prompt.g They want to run Jumpstart Preschool or Reader Rabbit or Sesame Street. They want to do it the way my granddaughter does: start the computer; after Windows starts, put the CD into the CD-ROM drive; the program autostarts; click your way through it; click on whatever ends it when you're done--the voices tell you what to do. Want to run something else? Put that CD into the drive and repeat the above. Computers in 1985, which is probably about when you started, were a lot different than they are today, and so are operating systems. Sridhar, Is it true that you weren't allowed to use pointy objects like scissors? And, since then, fate had decided you enter the world of software rather than hardware? Ouch! Roman Yeah, my parents took my scissors away from me just as I was about to complete my 100% efficient solar array that would've solved the all the world's energy needs. 16 years later, I _still_ haven't gotten them back :-( I think I'll go throw a tantrum until I get what I want :-) -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson Sridhar, Is it true that you weren't allowed to use pointy objects like scissors? And, since then, fate had decided you enter the world of software rather than hardware? Ouch! Roman Yeah, my parents took my scissors away from me just as I was about to complete my 100% efficient solar array that would've solved the all the world's energy needs. 16 years later, I _still_ haven't gotten them back :-( I think I'll go throw a tantrum until I get what I want :-) -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson The same thing happened to me. However, when I decided to build my first gas laser, they gave soldering iron on my birthday. However, I was already in grade 4. This is a true story. :-) Roman
Re: [newbie] write permissions in gui.
I don't want to protract what is essentially an off-topic discussion for this list, so this will be it from me. I don't know what would give someone the impression that I was saying Windows is intuitive and Linux is not. I explicitly stated to the contrary. Also, it is ridiculous to dump on everything Windows does just because someone likes or prefers Linux. The Mac and Windows got some things right. No sense reinventing the wheel. When you constantly insult Windows by using demeaning nicknames for it and refusing to see *anything* good about it (not uncommon on Linux lists and message boards), you place yourself in the category of a zealot who is waging religious wars over operating systems. The computer world is full of OS religionists, to be sure. You have your Mac evangelists, who have actually made death threats against columnists who have questioned the Mac's superiority in everything. The excesses of Team OS/2 are well known. The Windows world has plenty of missionaries and Microsoft groupies. Linux has its fair share of fanatics, too. I prefer an even-handed approach where one can consider the pluses and minuses without regard to the orthodoxy of the venue in which the discussion is taking place. Sridhar said: I was referring to a much looser definition that is commonly in use within computing circles, particluarly in computer publications (including consumer magazines). Are these the same folks who think it's is a possessive pronoun?g The definition I am using refers to what a user has learnt and experienced in the past, and how that affects their expectations when they try something new (to them). Then intuitive isn't the operative word and shouldn't be used in this way. It just degrades the language and confuses people. Using your definition, how is copy/paste behaviour intuitive to anybody? Is a key combo like Ctrl-c or Ctrl-v intuitive? No. Truth be told, there isn't much about using a computer that is intuitive. Well, maybe if you have a simple e-mail and Web browsing machine where the pictures and words are almost impossible to miss, you might call it intuitive, but most operations aren't that simple. However, *consistency* of operations within an operating system means you learn once and then can use that in everything else. When you have ten different ways of doing something and no application can be counted on to do it in the same way, any possible intuitiveness is out the window and you must learn (and remember) the procedure for each application you use. Your idea of intuitive only works at a basic level, like dragging a file icon onto a printer icon (which, I believe, GNOME-Print can do). As can KDE. Which illustrates that I wasn't doing a Windows-good, Linux-bad comparison. Intuitive features can be, and are being, incorporated into Linux desktops. I _do_ realise that I was unusual. I wasn't trying to boast about my abilities I didn't think you were. I was just trying to illustrate that a clear mind, like that of a child, can learn new things much more easily than one that is fettered by many habits that have accumulated over time. Like the old maxim, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. The maxim is, of course, untrue because you *can* teach an old dog new tricks. I don't think it was easier for people whose first computer experience was DOS to learn the system than for people who learned Windows to learn another system, though. When you had essentially nothing else, you either learned it or didn't use a computer at all. Lots of people simply gave up--I know them! Or they gave up until they encountered a Macintosh. Apple used The Computer for the Rest of Us as an early advertising slogan for the Mac. Many DOS users eagerly adopted Windows 3.0 and then 3.1 with sighs of relief because they had to deal with the hated command line so much less. There are holdouts to this day, but a large majority of users simply prefer to work with a graphical interface. They want to do what they want to do, not spend weeks massaging an operating system before they can get to work or play. Simple console commands like how to change directories and how to copy or delete a file can be very useful, even in Windows. They are of limited usefulness because you can do it all from the graphical file manager. But I agree that it's another tool in your toolkit if you can do things from command lines. Many (but obviously not all) new GNU/Linux users just end up saying stuff it, I'm going back to Windows. A total newbie can't do this, and so are more determined. What a total newbie can do is just give up entirely on using a computer. Don't forget, the explosion in computer use (and sales) didn't come about until computers were easier to use. It was only when you didn't have to belong to the High Priesthood to use the thing that masses of ordinary people considered investing their money in a computer. I still couldn't understand the logic behind ideas like the ghastly Registry
Re: [newbie] write permissions in gui.
etharp wrote: On Sunday 29 July 2001 11:43, Romanator wrote: Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: snip damn and I was 12 befor I built my first (dc powered) underwater habitat, I wish we had things like solar arrays and lazers back in those days Is it true that you weren't allowed to use pointy objects like scissors? And, since then, fate had decided you enter the world of software rather than hardware? Ouch! Roman Yeah, my parents took my scissors away from me just as I was about to complete my 100% efficient solar array that would've solved the all the world's energy needs. 16 years later, I _still_ haven't gotten them back :-( I think I'll go throw a tantrum until I get what I want :-) -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson Sridhar, Is it true that you weren't allowed to use pointy objects like scissors? And, since then, fate had decided you enter the world of software rather than hardware? Ouch! Roman Yeah, my parents took my scissors away from me just as I was about to complete my 100% efficient solar array that would've solved the all the world's energy needs. 16 years later, I _still_ haven't gotten them back :-( I think I'll go throw a tantrum until I get what I want :-) -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson The same thing happened to me. However, when I decided to build my first gas laser, they gave soldering iron on my birthday. However, I was already in grade 4. This is a true story. :-) Roman Either way, I think we all did good. Software, underwater habitat and lasers. Not bad to kids.In fact, this list has a lot of talented people. From what I have been reading on the newbie list, some of the high school kids are doing phenomenal things with computers, graphics, web page design and Linux. Remember last week's posting from Riverdale High. I was very impressed. BTW. I will be taking a break from the newbie list to finish my web page. If you need to contact me, place email me directly. Cheers :-) Roman
Re: [newbie] write permissions in gui and the Holy Grail
- Original Message - From: Judith Miner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [newbie] write permissions in gui. Also, it is ridiculous to dump on everything Windows does just because someone likes or prefers Linux. The Mac and Windows got some things right. No sense reinventing the wheel. Judith weighs the same as a duck... which means she's made of wood... and therefore... a witch!! BURN HER!! BURN HER!! ;-) Miark
Re: [newbie] write permissions in gui.
On Sun, 29 Jul 2001 09:56, Romanator wrote: On Saturday 28 July 2001 06:48 pm, Judith Miner wrote: Sridhar wrote: I taught myself MS-DOS when I was three years old. Since I had no previous conceptions on what an OS should be like, I learned rather easily. Surely you must realize that you were a very unusual three-year-old. For one thing, you must have known how to read and spell, as well as how to use a keyboard. Most three-year-olds can't read and spell at all, or if at all, not well enough to use a text-based operating system like MS-DOS. And then, once you start it, what do you do with it? Most three-year-olds aren't interested in playing with commands at a command prompt.g They want to run Jumpstart Preschool or Reader Rabbit or Sesame Street. They want to do it the way my granddaughter does: start the computer; after Windows starts, put the CD into the CD-ROM drive; the program autostarts; click your way through it; click on whatever ends it when you're done--the voices tell you what to do. Want to run something else? Put that CD into the drive and repeat the above. Computers in 1985, which is probably about when you started, were a lot different than they are today, and so are operating systems. Sridhar, Is it true that you weren't allowed to use pointy objects like scissors? And, since then, fate had decided you enter the world of software rather than hardware? Ouch! Roman Yeah, my parents took my scissors away from me just as I was about to complete my 100% efficient solar array that would've solved the all the world's energy needs. 16 years later, I _still_ haven't gotten them back :-( I think I'll go throw a tantrum until I get what I want :-) -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson
Re: [newbie] write permissions in gui.
On Sunday 29 July 2001 11:43, Romanator wrote: Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: snip damn and I was 12 befor I built my first (dc powered) underwater habitat, I wish we had things like solar arrays and lazers back in those days Is it true that you weren't allowed to use pointy objects like scissors? And, since then, fate had decided you enter the world of software rather than hardware? Ouch! Roman Yeah, my parents took my scissors away from me just as I was about to complete my 100% efficient solar array that would've solved the all the world's energy needs. 16 years later, I _still_ haven't gotten them back :-( I think I'll go throw a tantrum until I get what I want :-) -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson Sridhar, Is it true that you weren't allowed to use pointy objects like scissors? And, since then, fate had decided you enter the world of software rather than hardware? Ouch! Roman Yeah, my parents took my scissors away from me just as I was about to complete my 100% efficient solar array that would've solved the all the world's energy needs. 16 years later, I _still_ haven't gotten them back :-( I think I'll go throw a tantrum until I get what I want :-) -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson The same thing happened to me. However, when I decided to build my first gas laser, they gave soldering iron on my birthday. However, I was already in grade 4. This is a true story. :-) Roman
Re: [newbie] write permissions in gui.
Sridhar wrote: You mean it isn't intuitive for a Windos user? Then you are correct. For people who have been using *nix for a while this can be very intuitive. Whoa! Intuitive has nothing to do with what OS someone knows how to use. Intuitive means known or perceived through intuition. Intuition is the act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes. Intuitive does not mean easy, once you learn how. Command lines can never be intuitive because you have to *learn* the commands first. Dragging a file onto a printer icon in order to print is intuitive. You don't have to read anything to figure out that dragging a file onto a picture of a printer will probably result in its being printed. Writing copy /b thisfile.doc lpt1 at a DOS prompt is not intuitive, though it is easy, once you know how. I don't have a clue what you'd write at a Unix prompt because, gee, it isn't intuitive.g First time computer users can generally learn an OS like GNU/Linux much faster than a Windos user, since they don't expect everything to be like Windos. Do you have evidence to support this, other than wishful thinking and some anecdotes? Evidence would require gathering large, diverse groups of users, some of them new to computing, others experienced with Windows, giving them tasks to do in GNU/Linux, and observing what they go through and how long it takes for them to complete the tasks. You would also gather their impressions of how hard or easy it was to accomplish the tasks. I taught myself MS-DOS when I was three years old. Since I had no previous conceptions on what an OS should be like, I learned rather easily. Surely you must realize that you were a very unusual three-year-old. For one thing, you must have known how to read and spell, as well as how to use a keyboard. Most three-year-olds can't read and spell at all, or if at all, not well enough to use a text-based operating system like MS-DOS. And then, once you start it, what do you do with it? Most three-year-olds aren't interested in playing with commands at a command prompt.g They want to run Jumpstart Preschool or Reader Rabbit or Sesame Street. They want to do it the way my granddaughter does: start the computer; after Windows starts, put the CD into the CD-ROM drive; the program autostarts; click your way through it; click on whatever ends it when you're done--the voices tell you what to do. Want to run something else? Put that CD into the drive and repeat the above. Computers in 1985, which is probably about when you started, were a lot different than they are today, and so are operating systems. When I tried MacOS, a very user-friendly OS, I couldn't understand it, simply because it wasn't anything like what I had tried before. And how about after you had used Mac OS for an hour? It goes beyond first impressions to how long it takes a person to become a competent user. I kept an open mind, and now I find that I can't understand the logic (if there is any) in Windos, my previous OS of choice. Doesn't sound like the mind is too open with regard to Windows.g Did you ever feel you understood how Windows works? If so, what happened to change that? This seems contradictory to the advice to take each system as it stands, without making invidious comparisons to what you already know. When it comes to troubleshooting problems, often you will _have_ to use the command line. In Linux. Now. Hopefully not forever. Hopefully not in two years. Better yet, not in one year. In Windos, if something goes wrong, the user has no way of finding out what it is. This is because things are 100% graphical. I disagree. I think there are many ways of finding out what's wrong. You just have to learn how to do it--just like Linux! As a result, often the solution is to reinstall, and even this can't fix everything. A reinstall is seldom needed. The reason people use it so often is that they don't know what else to try. Users at this level wouldn't have a clue what to try in Linux, either. Also, new users are told by tech support of various computer manufacturers to use their recovery disk (which wipes everything and restores the system to what it was when they got it) because it's a lot less expensive (to the manufacturer) to get them back to square one than to try to figure out what may be wrong and simply fix that. Unfortunately, if the cause of the problem is a bad driver or a buggy program, the problem will be back as soon as they put it back on the system. If I may add a personal anecdote, I've been using Windows starting with 3.0 in 1991. In ten years, I've *never* had to reinstall any version of Windows because my system was messed up beyond my ability to figure it out. I also do not crash five times a day. I would not put up with frequent crashes. I'm not saying those who do have a lot of crashes are doing something wrong, just pointing out that crashes are not necessarily a part of the Windows experience. I am most certainly
Re: [newbie] write permissions in gui.
On Saturday 28 July 2001 06:48 pm, Judith Miner wrote: Sridhar wrote: I taught myself MS-DOS when I was three years old. Since I had no previous conceptions on what an OS should be like, I learned rather easily. Surely you must realize that you were a very unusual three-year-old. For one thing, you must have known how to read and spell, as well as how to use a keyboard. Most three-year-olds can't read and spell at all, or if at all, not well enough to use a text-based operating system like MS-DOS. And then, once you start it, what do you do with it? Most three-year-olds aren't interested in playing with commands at a command prompt.g They want to run Jumpstart Preschool or Reader Rabbit or Sesame Street. They want to do it the way my granddaughter does: start the computer; after Windows starts, put the CD into the CD-ROM drive; the program autostarts; click your way through it; click on whatever ends it when you're done--the voices tell you what to do. Want to run something else? Put that CD into the drive and repeat the above. Computers in 1985, which is probably about when you started, were a lot different than they are today, and so are operating systems. Sridhar, Is it true that you weren't allowed to use pointy objects like scissors? And, since then, fate had decided you enter the world of software rather than hardware? Ouch! Roman
Fwd: Re: [newbie] write permissions in gui.
lets try that again, an (off TOPIC) card, you need to be dealt with -- Forwarded Message -- Subject: Re: [newbie] write permissions in gui. Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 22:31:16 -0400 From: etharp [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Romanator [EMAIL PROTECTED], Judith Miner [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] damn roman you are an off toic card (you need to be DEALT with) On Saturday 28 July 2001 19:56, Romanator wrote: On Saturday 28 July 2001 06:48 pm, Judith Miner wrote: Sridhar wrote: snip in 1985, which is probably about when you started, were a lot different than they are today, and so are operating systems. Sridhar, Is it true that you weren't allowed to use pointy objects like scissors? And, since then, fate had decided you enter the world of software rather than hardware? Ouch! Roman ---
Re: [newbie] write permissions in gui.
my reading of this would mean that to be truly intuitive something would then be also instinctive. by your reasoning nothing involving either a keyboard or a mice could be considered intuitive. in fact about the only thing i can think of that would fit your definition would be the intuitive way a person strives to keep their head above water when drowning. not quite the same as instinctive way one breathes. I wonder if you considered that your post was kinda windows pro for a linux list, do you think? I believe in this use he was referring to the way someone never sitting before a computer will pick up and learn the methods and terminology for the OS. I personally find the command line of linux so intuitive that is scares me. ever tried to record (rec), config sound (sndconfig) now letsee to install a sound driver in winders... damn if it can be found where to open a text consol...that (to ME) is counter intuitive. On Saturday 28 July 2001 18:48, Judith Miner wrote: Sridhar wrote: You mean it isn't intuitive for a Windos user? Then you are correct. For people who have been using *nix for a while this can be very intuitive. Whoa! Intuitive has nothing to do with what OS someone knows how to use. Intuitive means known or perceived through intuition. Intuition is the act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes. Intuitive does not mean easy, once you learn how. Command lines can never be intuitive because you have to *learn* the commands first. Dragging a file onto a printer icon in order to print is intuitive. You don't have to read anything to figure out that dragging a file onto a picture of a printer will probably result in its being printed. Writing copy /b thisfile.doc lpt1 at a DOS prompt is not intuitive, though it is easy, once you know how. I don't have a clue what you'd write at a Unix prompt because, gee, it isn't intuitive.g First time computer users can generally learn an OS like GNU/Linux much faster than a Windos user, since they don't expect everything to be like Windos. Do you have evidence to support this, other than wishful thinking and some anecdotes? Evidence would require gathering large, diverse groups of users, some of them new to computing, others experienced with Windows, giving them tasks to do in GNU/Linux, and observing what they go through and how long it takes for them to complete the tasks. You would also gather their impressions of how hard or easy it was to accomplish the tasks. I taught myself MS-DOS when I was three years old. Since I had no previous conceptions on what an OS should be like, I learned rather easily. Surely you must realize that you were a very unusual three-year-old. For one thing, you must have known how to read and spell, as well as how to use a keyboard. Most three-year-olds can't read and spell at all, or if at all, not well enough to use a text-based operating system like MS-DOS. And then, once you start it, what do you do with it? Most three-year-olds aren't interested in playing with commands at a command prompt.g They want to run Jumpstart Preschool or Reader Rabbit or Sesame Street. They want to do it the way my granddaughter does: start the computer; after Windows starts, put the CD into the CD-ROM drive; the program autostarts; click your way through it; click on whatever ends it when you're done--the voices tell you what to do. Want to run something else? Put that CD into the drive and repeat the above. Computers in 1985, which is probably about when you started, were a lot different than they are today, and so are operating systems. When I tried MacOS, a very user-friendly OS, I couldn't understand it, simply because it wasn't anything like what I had tried before. And how about after you had used Mac OS for an hour? It goes beyond first impressions to how long it takes a person to become a competent user. I kept an open mind, and now I find that I can't understand the logic (if there is any) in Windos, my previous OS of choice. Doesn't sound like the mind is too open with regard to Windows.g Did you ever feel you understood how Windows works? If so, what happened to change that? This seems contradictory to the advice to take each system as it stands, without making invidious comparisons to what you already know. When it comes to troubleshooting problems, often you will _have_ to use the command line. In Linux. Now. Hopefully not forever. Hopefully not in two years. Better yet, not in one year. In Windos, if something goes wrong, the user has no way of finding out what it is. This is because things are 100% graphical. I disagree. I think there are many ways of finding out what's wrong. You just have to learn how to do it--just like Linux! As a result, often the solution is to reinstall, and even this can't fix everything. A reinstall is seldom needed. The reason people use it so often is that
Re: [newbie] write permissions in gui.
On Thu, 26 Jul 2001 19:40, John Rigby wrote: Hi Sridhar, This was specific to the fix from you re ONE of my problems. A lot of data to copy from an Email message into a black screen. (*x commands are not intuitive! :-) ) You mean it isn't intuitive for a Windos user? Then you are correct. For people who have been using *nix for a while this can be very intuitive. Remember, this is _not_ Windos. As you know, I am trying to compose - eventually, a simplified startup and gotcha list for both New Newbies and ex-Doze Newbies and am rapidly coming to the conclusion that there won't be much difference! First time computer users can generally learn an OS like GNU/Linux much faster than a Windos user, since they don't expect everything to be like Windos. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I taught myself MS-DOS when I was three years old. Since I had no previous conceptions on what an OS should be like, I learned rather easily. I then took things in steps, learning Windos 3.1, OS/2 Warp 3 and then Win9x with little trouble. When I tried MacOS, a very user-friendly OS, I couldn't understand it, simply because it wasn't anything like what I had tried before. The same thing initially happened with GNU/Linux (in 1999). However, I kept an open mind, and now I find that I can't understand the logic (if there is any) in Windos, my previous OS of choice. The question was really aimed at doing the job simply as per the expectations of a Doze user and/or the reasonable expectations of a New User and that always will mean GUI, I'm afraid. When it comes to troubleshooting problems, often you will _have_ to use the command line. In Windos, if something goes wrong, the user has no way of finding out what it is. This is because things are 100% graphical. As a result, often the solution is to reinstall, and even this can't fix everything. So that's what I meant. I knew cutnpaste wouldn't work. I was looking for a reasonable way via GUI. When you select text with the mouse in GNU/Linux (either in the console or in X), its contents are automatically placed in a clipboard. To paste, just aim and middle-click. The Windos ctrl-x, ctrl-c and ctrl-v will also work in many apps. So many critical jobs do require Su and I was looking for a simple way to do that on the front end for a situation like this. kdesu is a graphical version of su. You can even make desktop icons ask for the root password in a graphical dialogue box before they run their app. Its syntax is simple: $ kdesu -c command More information can be found in your KDE documentation (if searching doesn't work, install the htdig package) or by typing man kdesu in a terminal. Also have a look at sudo, which can give root access without a password for a limited amount of time. Further example: Xemacs. Unknown on my machine ( run command has no idea) You obviously don't have every app known to humanity installed on your system. You will need to install Xemacs if you want to use it (it is on one of your Mandrake CDs). There are many other editors out there you can try -- some graphical, some console-based. In KDE, Kedit and Kwrite (Advanced Editor) are good. In GNOME, Gedit and GXedit are good as well. On Wed, 25 Jul 2001 21:15, you manipulated electrons to produce: On Wed, 25 Jul 2001 19:32, John Rigby wrote: Hi folks, With MY memory I NEED cutnpaste. Can't do it on Emacs. What are you copying from? X has a clipboard, but it cannot share it with apps loaded at the console (i.e. not just in a terminal window). Have you tried Xemacs? In M8 GUI how do we assign root/su permissions to a file like modules.conf? Esp. on a temp basis? If you mean /etc/modules.conf then it should already be owned by root. -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson
[newbie] write permissions in gui.
Hi folks, With MY memory I NEED cutnpaste. Can't do it on Emacs. In M8 GUI how do we assign root/su permissions to a file like modules.conf? Esp. on a temp basis? -- Cheers, John http://counter.li.org GO HERE IF YOU SUPPORT LINUX! Fablor is now Webhosting?? What on earth for?? Info here: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (it's only an Autoresponder) :-)
