[NSP] Re: NSP duet with other instruments
Hi John, Steve and all, Would you say that this conforms to the limits of the list? Hopefully, Sheila -Original Message- From: bri...@aol.com To: dir...@gmail.com Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 6:51 pm Subject: Re: [NSP] NSP duet with other instruments Hi John, Yes, as Matt commented, it is done frequently, and in my humble opinion, almost sounds better than duets played by two pipes. Listen also to CDs by Anthony Robb and others who use pipes ( F or G chanter) also with viola or fidola (which I think - and no doubt will be immediately slapped on the fingers if wrong - is a fiddle tuned like a viola, i.e. a fifth lower). I also often use a clarinet, which has similar range to the viola and, in my part of the world, is much easier to find than a viola (especially very much easier to find than a viola who enjoys playing what purely "classically" trained musicians would tend to refer to as "folk stuff"). Not only do you get the combination of different pitches, but also the exciting variety of the tone colours of the different instruments. I have composed a lot of "cross-over chamber music" - a mixture of traditional NSP with more or less classical, for Northumbrian F or G pipes with violin, cello, and viola or clarinet. The viola has the advantage of being able to play pizzicato as well as bowed, which adds another dimension, but the clarinet has the advantage of its lovely different timbre and combines beautifully with the pipes.The same can be said in favour of flutes, whistles, oboes, bass etc. and most of these other instruments have a wider range than the basic 7-keyed chanter, and can play in numerous different keys. Thus you can get wonderful variety of sound by having, for example, pipes alone, or with any or all of the other instruments, interspersed with passages when the pipes just drone quietly in the background while one or several of the other instruments do their stuff, and/or even move to another key for a short passage. To my way of thinking, the only time the combination of any other instruments with the pipes is not very satisfactory is when they play in unison, because the other instruments are frequently more used to playing in "equal temperament" (like the piano), while the pipes use what is often referred to as "just tuning". If you have really sensitive string/wind players they will adjust to the pipes, or automatically use "just tuning" but, listening to many recordings of unison playing, you notice that it does not always happen, and the result is a bit of a mess. (Not good for the ears of the listener!). The only other thing to bear in mind, and which used sensitively can be a terrific asset, is that the other instruments can vary their dynamics, and can easily overpower the small pipes. The lower pitched "D" chanter is very easily drowned, whilst the brighter "G" can cut through more easily, but can still be out-shouted by a loud violin especially if the latter is playing notes at a higher pitch. Arrangements have to be carefully made, and if necessary don't be shy about reminding the "other" instruments when they should be letting the pipes be heard!. Have fun experimenting. Sheila -Original Message- From: John Dally To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 2:45 pm Subject: [NSP] NSP duet with other instruments I've been listening to a lot of UP flat set and fiddle duets, and laying my SSP in A a bit with a fiddler. I'm smitten with the sound ix of low pipe and fiddle. I think fiddle and NSP would go well ogether, but perhaps the NSP in D would produce a better match up ith a fiddle than F or F# and the G chanter which can be, to my ear nyway, shrill. Has anyone experimented with this sort of thing at ll? thanks, ohn PS Is there a monument at the Morpeth Chantry to those who have fallen n the bagpipe wars? To get on or off this list see list information at ttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[NSP] Re: NSP duet with other instruments
I play my D NSP set with a fiddler quite a bit, as well as with a mandolin player, and as long as you have the key sig discussion before you start, everything will go fine. Depending on the fiddler and the liveliness of the room you are playing in, there can be some volume issues sometimes, but most fiddlers can turn it down when necessary. At last, a piping topic, Peter Dyson Bellingham (the other one), WA To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation
Sorry Barry I cant agree with you there. I would argue that just because the forum is called 'Northumbrian Smallpipes', doesn't mean that topics that are reference points to locate the cultural context of the music, and the pipes themselves, are not relevant, and as you suggest are therefore to be just tolerated. The culture and the music is intertwined with the pipes and they also refer to other genres, instruments and cultures. How can you separate them? If we want to regulate this forum to a technical reference tool by discounting the other 'stuff' ,then In my opinion the site would be less informative, and restrictive. If you want the title to be the measure of the discussion, maybe a longer title might help. Stephen Douglass On Feb 6, 2010, at 1:17 PM, Barry Say wrote: Anthony Robb wrote: This is a a forum for that tiny minority of people who have found Northumbrian music and culture rewarding and uplifting. Sorry Anthony, you are mistaken. This is a forum for discussing Northumbrian Smallpipes. It has been a remarkably tolerant place where discussions have taken place on topics such as scottish music, other bagpipes, mouth-organ music and fiddle music to name a few. We cannot assume that members of this list have any interest whatsoever in the music or culture of Northumberland. The subject of the list is the Northumbrian Smallpipes, all other things are peripheral. Barry PS Are contributors aware that all there posts are archived for posterity and that future historians of the pipes will be able to trawl these records to form an opinion of the piping community at the beginning of the 21st century. Wayne keeps a copy at Dartmouth and there are copies at www.mail-archive.com which has over 74 million postings from 6000 +mailing lists and www.opensubscriber.com has the most recent 3919 postings from this list and promises never to delete any of them. Oh yes, I also have a copy. B To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: NSP duet with other instruments
I play fiddle on a regular basis with Chris Ormston playing G NSPs, mainly for dances with Border Directors. We also play A Border pipes together. Before us, High Level Ranters, Joe Hutton and the Wills played NSP and fiddle, it's not at all unusual - Margaret and Andy Watchorn, K & P Tickell, the list must be a long one. Only time I played with a D set was with Dick Hensold - everything was in the 'wrong' key on the fiddle - more so when playing fiddle with an F set, which I also do occasionally. On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 7:45 PM, John Dally <[1]dir...@gmail.com> wrote: I've been listening to a lot of UP flat set and fiddle duets, and playing my SSP in A a bit with a fiddler. I'm smitten with the sound mix of low pipe and fiddle. I think fiddle and NSP would go well together, but perhaps the NSP in D would produce a better match up with a fiddle than F or F# and the G chanter which can be, to my ear anyway, shrill. Has anyone experimented with this sort of thing at all? thanks, John PS Is there a monument at the Morpeth Chantry to those who have fallen in the bagpipe wars? To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:dir...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] NSP duet with other instruments
I've been listening to a lot of UP flat set and fiddle duets, and playing my SSP in A a bit with a fiddler. I'm smitten with the sound mix of low pipe and fiddle. I think fiddle and NSP would go well together, but perhaps the NSP in D would produce a better match up with a fiddle than F or F# and the G chanter which can be, to my ear anyway, shrill. Has anyone experimented with this sort of thing at all? thanks, John PS Is there a monument at the Morpeth Chantry to those who have fallen in the bagpipe wars? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
When is the ebook edition coming out? On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 11:23 AM, tim rolls BT wrote: > Julia wrote > > "The one you have was an ephemeral printing only." > > > Does that mean the print will fade away and he'll have to buy one of your > new ones :-0 > > Tim > > - Original Message - From: "Julia Say" > To: "nsp" ; "Dru Brooke-Taylor" > ; "Richard Shuttleworth" > > Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 6:21 PM > Subject: [NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation) > > >> On 6 Feb 2010, Richard Shuttleworth wrote: >> >>> How many more books on Billy Pigg can you find to write? (Big grin here) >> >> The existing one (the 1997 book with the biography and interviews in) is >> effectively out of print - there are a few copies left which will be >> available to >> NPS members only. >> The one you have was an ephemeral printing only. >> >> The tunebook-sized volumes currently in production are a re-write of the >> 1997 book, >> with some biography, updated information on Billy's playing style using >> two or >> three of Geoff's transcriptions of common tunes as illustrations, and >> revision >> (where necessary) of the tunes themselves. I've listened to all the tunes >> with a >> far more educated ear than 13 years ago: the 1st edition I was effectively >> ghost- >> writing. >> One will have all Billy's compositions in: the other is a wider selection >> of tunes >> he played. Once that's out, I will have said all I'm intending to on the >> subject. >> Billy was a one-off (there are those who would say thank goodness!), an >> important >> influence on C20 piping and wrote some darn good tunes. >> >>> Gay McKeon This version varies quite a bit from Billy's in the >>> second part but it is certainly the same air. I shall study this. >> >> Gay came and did a concert at the Chantry a few years back and I was most >> impressed. I suspect that like most airs, this one has as many versions as >> there >> are players - and so it should be, in a sense. >> >>> Adrian plays >>> Sliabh na m'Bhan followed by The Iron Man. My liner notes are so old I >>> didn't see the forward slash in the printing >> >> Ah, that explains it. >> >>> Thank you, Julia, for separating my enquiry from the bitter >>> correspondence >>> it seems to have generated. >> >> Not at all...we are both, I believe, founder members of this list, and >> have >> followed it through an assortment of ups and downs. On balance I think >> it's been of >> great use to a large number of people over the years. I believe we first >> "met" on >> the bagpipe list which preceded it, which IIRC drowned in a welter of GHB >> wars >> that make some exchanges on here, recent and not-so-recent, pale into >> insignificance. >> >> Anyway, I like lively debate. >> >> Julia >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > >
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
Julia wrote "The one you have was an ephemeral printing only." Does that mean the print will fade away and he'll have to buy one of your new ones :-0 Tim - Original Message - From: "Julia Say" To: "nsp" ; "Dru Brooke-Taylor" ; "Richard Shuttleworth" Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 6:21 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation) On 6 Feb 2010, Richard Shuttleworth wrote: How many more books on Billy Pigg can you find to write? (Big grin here) The existing one (the 1997 book with the biography and interviews in) is effectively out of print - there are a few copies left which will be available to NPS members only. The one you have was an ephemeral printing only. The tunebook-sized volumes currently in production are a re-write of the 1997 book, with some biography, updated information on Billy's playing style using two or three of Geoff's transcriptions of common tunes as illustrations, and revision (where necessary) of the tunes themselves. I've listened to all the tunes with a far more educated ear than 13 years ago: the 1st edition I was effectively ghost- writing. One will have all Billy's compositions in: the other is a wider selection of tunes he played. Once that's out, I will have said all I'm intending to on the subject. Billy was a one-off (there are those who would say thank goodness!), an important influence on C20 piping and wrote some darn good tunes. Gay McKeon This version varies quite a bit from Billy's in the second part but it is certainly the same air. I shall study this. Gay came and did a concert at the Chantry a few years back and I was most impressed. I suspect that like most airs, this one has as many versions as there are players - and so it should be, in a sense. Adrian plays Sliabh na m'Bhan followed by The Iron Man. My liner notes are so old I didn't see the forward slash in the printing Ah, that explains it. Thank you, Julia, for separating my enquiry from the bitter correspondence it seems to have generated. Not at all...we are both, I believe, founder members of this list, and have followed it through an assortment of ups and downs. On balance I think it's been of great use to a large number of people over the years. I believe we first "met" on the bagpipe list which preceded it, which IIRC drowned in a welter of GHB wars that make some exchanges on here, recent and not-so-recent, pale into insignificance. Anyway, I like lively debate. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Julia Say <[1]julia@nspipes.co.uk> wrote: On balance I think it's been of great use to a large number of people over the years. Sure. And everybody has a bad slow air day once in a while, no big deal. -- References 1. mailto:julia@nspipes.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
On 6 Feb 2010, Richard Shuttleworth wrote: > How many more books on Billy Pigg can you find to write? (Big grin here) The existing one (the 1997 book with the biography and interviews in) is effectively out of print - there are a few copies left which will be available to NPS members only. The one you have was an ephemeral printing only. The tunebook-sized volumes currently in production are a re-write of the 1997 book, with some biography, updated information on Billy's playing style using two or three of Geoff's transcriptions of common tunes as illustrations, and revision (where necessary) of the tunes themselves. I've listened to all the tunes with a far more educated ear than 13 years ago: the 1st edition I was effectively ghost- writing. One will have all Billy's compositions in: the other is a wider selection of tunes he played. Once that's out, I will have said all I'm intending to on the subject. Billy was a one-off (there are those who would say thank goodness!), an important influence on C20 piping and wrote some darn good tunes. > Gay McKeon This version varies quite a bit from Billy's in the > second part but it is certainly the same air. I shall study this. Gay came and did a concert at the Chantry a few years back and I was most impressed. I suspect that like most airs, this one has as many versions as there are players - and so it should be, in a sense. > Adrian plays > Sliabh na m'Bhan followed by The Iron Man. My liner notes are so old I > didn't see the forward slash in the printing Ah, that explains it. > Thank you, Julia, for separating my enquiry from the bitter correspondence > it seems to have generated. Not at all...we are both, I believe, founder members of this list, and have followed it through an assortment of ups and downs. On balance I think it's been of great use to a large number of people over the years. I believe we first "met" on the bagpipe list which preceded it, which IIRC drowned in a welter of GHB wars that make some exchanges on here, recent and not-so-recent, pale into insignificance. Anyway, I like lively debate. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation
Anthony Robb wrote: This is a a forum for that tiny minority of people who have found Northumbrian music and culture rewarding and uplifting. Sorry Anthony, you are mistaken. This is a forum for discussing Northumbrian Smallpipes. It has been a remarkably tolerant place where discussions have taken place on topics such as scottish music, other bagpipes, mouth-organ music and fiddle music to name a few. We cannot assume that members of this list have any interest whatsoever in the music or culture of Northumberland. The subject of the list is the Northumbrian Smallpipes, all other things are peripheral. Barry PS Are contributors aware that all there posts are archived for posterity and that future historians of the pipes will be able to trawl these records to form an opinion of the piping community at the beginning of the 21st century. Wayne keeps a copy at Dartmouth and there are copies at www.mail-archive.com which has over 74 million postings from 6000+mailing lists and www.opensubscriber.com has the most recent 3919 postings from this list and promises never to delete any of them. Oh yes, I also have a copy. B To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
- Original Message - From: "Julia Say" To: "nsp" ; "Dru Brooke-Taylor" ; "Richard Shuttleworth" Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 5:16 AM Subject: Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation) Julia wrote: I've never met Geoff either, but in the 1960s he was a member of the London pipers who travelled north to hear Billy Pigg amongst others. We have corresponded. In 1990 he kindly presented all his group's transcriptions to the NPS. The book you have, Richard, was a very temporary production for one specific Pipers Gathering. I am currently working on a version of the tune to be included in a book of Billy's repertoire. Thank you for placing Geoff Warren, now I know why I have never met him. How many more books on Billy Pigg can you find to write? (Big grin here) The tune in it may be heard here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le1rntXsDsg played by Gay McKeon who is the CEO of the Uilleann Pipers Society (NPI). So presumably should know. Excellent! Thank you! This version varies quite a bit from Billy's in the second part but it is certainly the same air. I shall study this. Another unaccompanied vocal version that Bart sent me can be found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or-f3JSJtYA It is interesting to compare the two. Adrian recorded it on his cassette Jane of Biddlestone and called it "Sliabh na mban" but with the English subtitle of The Iron Man and attributed to Scott Skinner. I don't know what happened there, I don't have the tape insert to hand, but Billy played both "The Iron Man" by Scott Skinner, and Sliabh na m'bhan. He may have learnt Sliabh from the Doonans, again I don't know. There are recordings of both, which were correctly identified by Adrian in the collection of material he gave me. This was a mistake on my part, I misread the liner notes. Adrian plays Sliabh na m'Bhan followed by The Iron Man. My liner notes are so old I didn't see the forward slash in the printing and mistook the English for a translation of the Irish. Thank you, Julia, for separating my enquiry from the bitter correspondence it seems to have generated. My apologies to the list for having unwittingly caused this latest spate of nastiness. Cheers, Richard To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'Ban (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
On 6 Feb 2010, Gibbons, John wrote: > It is good that Geoff made such a serious effort to transcribe Billy's > timing and ornament - never an easy job. There was a group of folk - Geoff, John Haynes and Lionel Miller were three of them, and most of the work was done in the early 70s when slowing down tapes was possible but fairly crude. I'm checking the transcriptions using audacity and the slower downer which maintain pitch, and whilst there are places on a few tunes where I am intending to disagree with the Warren transcriptions, they were pretty good. The bulk of the book will not be literal transcriptions though, and it is converting the irregular rhythms of Billy's airs into music intelligible to most dot-users that causes the most bother. It is a compromise between musical accuracy and maintaining the sense of flow. But all of the tunes like it will have to have a health warning on - cannot be learnt effectively by dots alone. (Not that any music can, but even more so for these ones). Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'Ban (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
Julia,
The tune in Geoff's transcription is the same one as appears, much simplified,
on The Session. It is good that Geoff made such a serious effort to transcribe
Billy's timing and ornament - never an easy job.
I think this one is the 'real' Sliabh na mBan.
That one on the You Tube clip had a composer ascribed to it, so is
automatically suspect.
Oddly, nobody said 'Nazi' in the course of that critical discussion...
John
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of
Julia Say
Sent: 06 February 2010 10:17
To: nsp; Dru Brooke-Taylor; Richard Shuttleworth
Subject: [NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
On 5 Feb 2010, Richard Shuttleworth wrote:
> Although the tune on page 44 of book 2 is a really nice tune, it isn't
> the same one that caused my original enquiry.
I think it is a relation but where it came from I have no idea.
>your tune (Slievenamon)
> agrees with a tune identified as "Sliabh na mban" in the Roche
>Collection of Traditional Irish Music, which I have always found to be
>a pretty authentic book.
The*tune* sung on the contentious clip appears to me to be a version of the
song "Bonny Bunch of Thyme" sung by amongst many others, Ray Fisher. (who a few
folk on here might be interested to know is coming home for the day, today).
I can't speak for the words on the clip since I don't have the Gaelic about any
part of my person (thanks, Matt!)
>I am working from a version that appears in print in the old Billy
>Pigg's Compositions and a Selection of his other Repertoire that was
>produced some years ago by Adrian, Colin, Julia and G Warren (who I
>unfortunately do not know).
I've never met Geoff either, but in the 1960s he was a member of the London
pipers who travelled north to hear Billy Pigg amongst others. We have
corresponded. In 1990 he kindly presented all his group's transcriptions to the
NPS.
The book you have, Richard, was a very temporary production for one specific
Pipers Gathering. I am currently working on a version of the tune to be
included in a book of Billy's repertoire.
The tune in it may be heard here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le1rntXsDsg
played by Gay McKeon who is the CEO of the Uilleann Pipers Society (NPI). So
presumably should know.
> Adrian recorded it on his cassette Jane of Biddlestone and called it
> "Sliabh na mban" but with the English subtitle of The Iron Man and
> attributed to Scott Skinner.
I don't know what happened there, I don't have the tape insert to hand, but
Billy played both "The Iron Man" by Scott Skinner, and Sliabh na m'bhan. He
may have learnt Sliabh from the Doonans, again I don't know. There are
recordings of both, which were correctly identified by Adrian in the collection
of material he gave me.
I have looked at various abc versions on the web and not found anything
satisfactory. I also identified the two tunes that John Gibbons mentions.
Geoff's transcription relies on irregular barring and the abc of it is thus:
X:8278
T:Slieve Na Mon
S:G. Warren
L:1/8
E:14
K:G
.D .G {cd}.c|B3 A/F/ G3 B/d/|{a}g3 a2 g {fg}f d2 B|\
{cd}c3 (3A/B/c/ {de}d3 (3e/d/c/|{Bd}B G {d}c B {F}A3 {F}G2|G4::\ .d .e .f|{a}g3
d{g}f {ef}e d A {Bd}B3 .d .e .f|{a}g3 d{g}f {ef}e {de}d A|\
{Bd}B3 .D .G {cd}.c|B3 A/F/ G3 B/d/|{a}g3 a2 g {fg}f d2 B|\
{cd}c3 (3A/B/c/ {de}d3 (3e/d/c/|{Bd}B G {d}c B {F}A3 {F}G2|G4:|**
There is no time signature. For those unfamiliar with abc, the bits in curly
brackets are grace notes. Ordinary brackets precede triplets.
abc may be found at www.abcnotation.com. The dialect I use is a complicated one
designed for use with abc2mtex - which is where the backslash and asterisk
symbols above come from..
I hope all this is of use / interest to someone
Julia
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] musical taste
Topical today (well sort of): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcMA4Bz1SHI Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation
I had the same problem here when I met my wife. After 33 years Ahm are reet noo lake.-- Richard Shuttleworth wrote : I am thinking of including the Irish slow air Sliabh Na M'Ban (Billy Pigg version) in a concert performance this coming Sunday but have no idea how to pronounce the title properly. Can anyone help? Thanks, Richard -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- This message was sent on behalf of malcolm.sargea...@ntlworld.com at openSubscriber.com http://www.opensubscriber.com/message/nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu/13379380.html
[NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation - pedantry warning
I find it interesting that the name of the English language in Irish, on the other hand, sounds similar to the noise you make when you have something nasty in your mouth -- "Béarla". Jonathan -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 11:40 AM To: anth...@robbpipes.com; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; i...@gretton-willems.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation - pedantry warning I have it on good authority from several Irish persons that the name of the Irish language in English is "Irish". In Irish it's "gaeilge". "Gaelic" is normally reserved for the language of Scotland "Gaeilge na hAlban" (or Gh`aidhlig in Scossgallic) Csirz >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[[1]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb >Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 11:04 AM >To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; Paul Gretton >Subject: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation > > > OK so it doesn't butter your parsnip! > Perhaps the easiest answer is to press the stop button instead > of letting it bother you! > Cheers > Anthony > --- On Fri, 5/2/10, Paul Gretton wrote: > > From: Paul Gretton > Subject: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation > To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Friday, 5 February, 2010, 9:25 > > >>>There's a youtube of Maureen Hegarty singing a particularly > attractive > >>>version at [1][2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 , with a > link to > >>her own youtube with her singing a lot of other Irish classics. > "particularly attractive" ? LOL! How about "Make sure you >have a barf > bag > handy before you listen! " > But then: de gustibus non est disputandum as we say in Maastricht > (pronounced "disgusting buses full of disputing nuns"). > Mr Nasty > To get on or off this list see list information at > [2][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > >References > > 1. [4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 > 2. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- References 1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] test
test To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation - pedantry warning
at least you know your brass from your oboe! -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Anita Evans Sent: Fri 2/5/2010 7:57 PM To: Dartmouth nsp list N.P.S. site Subject: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation - pedantry warning Matt Seattle wrote: >It's all beyond me, I don't know my Erse from my Alba > brilliant Matt - I (and the list) needed cheering up! Anita -- Anita Evans To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
Expect you all know this but http://www.concertina.net/tunes_convert.html will convert his to dots etc. regards simon -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say Sent: 06 February 2010 10:53 To: nsp Subject: [NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation) On 6 Feb 2010, Margaret Watchorn wrote: > Joe Hutton played this tune in the early 1980s, and that's where I learned > it - his version was basically the same as Gay McKeon's. When I asked him > where he got the tune, he couldn't remember. That's interesting, Margaret. I remember Joe's views on both Irish music in Northumberland, and on Billy Pigg and his playing, from conversations with him in the early 90s, at the Rothbury course, at Alnwick, and from playing bass with him and Will & Will in sessions. As a result I am mildly surprised that he played it. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
On 6 Feb 2010, Margaret Watchorn wrote: > Joe Hutton played this tune in the early 1980s, and that's where I learned > it - his version was basically the same as Gay McKeon's. When I asked him > where he got the tune, he couldn't remember. That's interesting, Margaret. I remember Joe's views on both Irish music in Northumberland, and on Billy Pigg and his playing, from conversations with him in the early 90s, at the Rothbury course, at Alnwick, and from playing bass with him and Will & Will in sessions. As a result I am mildly surprised that he played it. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation
I don't actually want to reply to this but I can hardly avoid doing so given what I'm accused of. This will be my final response. My short and spontaneous answer would be "Oh, for God's sake, Anthony, don't be so bloody WET!" I said that the performance needed one to have a barf bag handy. You referred to that remark as "gratuitous nastiness" and "cruelly revolting" (and now "insulting, dismissive and out of order"). That is a ridiculous overreaction on your part. Perhaps you are not familiar with the expression "get me a barf bag" (or the finger-in-throat gesture that often accompanies it). It is a common expression of dislike -- not revulsion or hatred -- by no means as savage as you make out. And I was attacking a performance, not Dru. >>>to my way of thinking. Exactly! >>>[we...] should not be in the game of belittling one another's musical >>>favourites. I believe that we should be able to express both positive AND negative views on this forum. We are not here to like or encourage EVERYTHING (even just pedagogically). Various bona fide "Famous Pipers" have made FAR more dismissive comments here about performances - particularly those of a certain lady - than my "barf bag" remark. >>I am suggesting you move on from your prejudices against trained singers and >>listen to the whole story of the piece which seems to be more Lieder than >>Folk. I haven't the faintest idea what you mean here. I have no prejudice whatsoever against "trained singers" (including in the Irish repertoire) or the piece. My objection was to the particular performance referenced, which turns a great piece of sean nos into something cloying and mawkish, with a horrible plinky accompaniment -- "Arran-sweaters-by-the-fireside" easy listening. I - i.e. me, myself, personally -- find that it does violence to the essence of the music. NB: I was/am commenting on a paid professional performer, who places herself before the public for money, thus inviting comment. And although these are my personal opinions, I can assure you that a lot of lovers of Irish folk will share them. The repertoire that the song comes from has real GUTS. It's not meant to be simperingly sweet. Many of the great female sean nos singers sing with a similar "trained" voice production but without the mawkishness. This particular song is about loss and longing, both personal and (symbolically) national. You wouldn't sing the Marseillaise, for example, as a soppy lament! (OHMIGAWD!! Beam me up Scottie -- I've gone and expressed an OPINION again! You're allowed to disagree, Anthony - no problem -- but remember the hackneyed old Voltaire quote.) >>We don't want to know if it makes you sick!! You clearly don't, and I'm sure masses of forumees will instantly agree with you, as they slip another Maureen Hegarty CD into the player. But as Tim Berners-Lee was pointing out on the Beeb only this week, his brainchild has had the effect of opening up debate not just to like-minded groups and mutual admiration societies but also to objectionable rotters like me. Cheers, Sixtus Beckmesser (I have locked Paul Gretton in the cellar so he can't savage any more nice people) ___ From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 06 February 2010 00:12 To: Paul Gretton Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: RE: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation Find it revolting if you must - but we don't need to be informed of it! This is a a forum for that tiny minority of people who have found Northumbrian music and culture rewarding and uplifting. If you have to disagree with a posting please do it with some understanding and respect for the person expressing their thoughts. Your response was insulting, dismissive and out of order to my way of thinking. We are a tiny minority of Northumbrian pipes lovers and should not be in the game of belittling one another's musical favourites. I am suggesting you move on from your prejudices against trained singers and listen to the whole story of the piece which seems to be more Lieder than Folk. We don't want to know if it makes you sick!! As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
Joe Hutton played this tune in the early 1980s, and that's where I learned it - his version was basically the same as Gay McKeon's. When I asked him where he got the tune, he couldn't remember. Somewhere I have a poor quality cassette recording of Joe and me playing it at one of the house sessions we used to have in those days. Happy days. Margaret -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
On 6 Feb 2010, Julia Say wrote: > In 1990 > he kindly presented whoops, make that 1999. Sorry, typo. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sliabh na m'bhan (was Gaelic Pronunciation)
On 5 Feb 2010, Richard Shuttleworth wrote:
> Although the tune on page 44 of book 2 is a really nice tune, it isn't the
> same one that caused my original enquiry.
I think it is a relation but where it came from I have no idea.
>your tune (Slievenamon)
> agrees with a tune identified as "Sliabh na mban" in the Roche Collection of
> Traditional Irish Music, which I have always found to be a pretty authentic
> book.
The*tune* sung on the contentious clip appears to me to be a version of the
song
"Bonny Bunch of Thyme" sung by amongst many others, Ray Fisher. (who a few folk
on
here might be interested to know is coming home for the day, today).
I can't speak for the words on the clip since I don't have the Gaelic about any
part of my person (thanks, Matt!)
>I am working from a version that appears in print in the old Billy
> Pigg's Compositions and a Selection of his other Repertoire that was
> produced some years ago by Adrian, Colin, Julia and G Warren (who I
> unfortunately do not know).
I've never met Geoff either, but in the 1960s he was a member of the London
pipers
who travelled north to hear Billy Pigg amongst others. We have corresponded. In
1990 he kindly presented all his group's transcriptions to the NPS.
The book you have, Richard, was a very temporary production for one specific
Pipers
Gathering. I am currently working on a version of the tune to be included in a
book
of Billy's repertoire.
The tune in it may be heard here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le1rntXsDsg
played by Gay McKeon who is the CEO of the Uilleann Pipers Society (NPI). So
presumably should know.
> Adrian recorded it on his cassette Jane of
> Biddlestone and called it "Sliabh na mban" but with the English subtitle of
> The Iron Man and attributed to Scott Skinner.
I don't know what happened there, I don't have the tape insert to hand, but
Billy
played both "The Iron Man" by Scott Skinner, and Sliabh na m'bhan. He may have
learnt Sliabh from the Doonans, again I don't know. There are recordings of
both, which were correctly identified by Adrian in the collection of material
he
gave me.
I have looked at various abc versions on the web and not found anything
satisfactory. I also identified the two tunes that John Gibbons mentions.
Geoff's transcription relies on irregular barring and the abc of it is thus:
X:8278
T:Slieve Na Mon
S:G. Warren
L:1/8
E:14
K:G
.D .G {cd}.c|B3 A/F/ G3 B/d/|{a}g3 a2 g {fg}f d2 B|\
{cd}c3 (3A/B/c/ {de}d3 (3e/d/c/|{Bd}B G {d}c B {F}A3 {F}G2|G4::\
.d .e .f|{a}g3 d{g}f {ef}e d A {Bd}B3 .d .e .f|{a}g3 d{g}f {ef}e {de}d A|\
{Bd}B3 .D .G {cd}.c|B3 A/F/ G3 B/d/|{a}g3 a2 g {fg}f d2 B|\
{cd}c3 (3A/B/c/ {de}d3 (3e/d/c/|{Bd}B G {d}c B {F}A3 {F}G2|G4:|**
There is no time signature. For those unfamiliar with abc, the bits in curly
brackets are grace notes. Ordinary brackets precede triplets.
abc may be found at www.abcnotation.com. The dialect I use is a complicated one
designed for use with abc2mtex - which is where the backslash and asterisk
symbols
above come from..
I hope all this is of use / interest to someone
Julia
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation
___ From: Paul Gretton [mailto:i...@gretton-willems.com] Sent: 06 February 2010 11:00 To: 'Anthony Robb' Subject: RE: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation I don't actually want to reply to this but I can hardly avoid doing so given what I'm accused of. This will be my final response. My short and spontaneous answer would be "Oh, for God's sake, Anthony, don't be so bloody WET!" I said that the performance needed one to have a barf bag handy. You referred to that remark as "gratuitous nastiness" and "cruelly revolting" (and now "insulting, dismissive and out of order"). That is a ridiculous overreaction on your part. Perhaps you are not familiar with the expression "get me a barf bag" (or the finger-in-throat gesture that often accompanies it). It is a common expression of dislike -- not revulsion or hatred -- by no means as savage as you make out. And I was attacking a performance, not Dru. >>>to my way of thinking. Exactly! >>>[we...] should not be in the game of belittling one another's musical >>>favourites. I believe that we should be able to express both positive AND negative views on this forum. We are not here to like or encourage EVERYTHING (even just pedagogically). Various bona fide "Famous Pipers" have made FAR more dismissive comments here about performances - particularly those of a certain lady - than my "barf bag" remark. >>I am suggesting you move on from your prejudices against trained singers and >>listen to the whole story of the piece which seems to be more Lieder than >>Folk. I haven't the faintest idea what you mean here. I have no prejudice whatsoever against "trained singers" (including in the Irish repertoire) or the piece. My objection was to the particular performance referenced, which turns a great piece of sean nos into something cloying and mawkish, with a horrible plinky accompaniment -- "Arran-sweaters-by-the-fireside" easy listening. I - i.e. me, myself, personally -- find that it does violence to the essence of the music. NB: I was/am commenting on a paid professional performer, who places herself before the public for money, thus inviting comment. And although these are my personal opinions, I can assure you that a lot of lovers of Irish folk will share them. The repertoire that the song comes from has real GUTS. It's not meant to be simperingly sweet. Many of the great female sean nos singers sing with a similar "trained" voice production but without the mawkishness. This particular song is about loss and longing, both personal and (symbolically) national. You wouldn't sing the Marseillaise, for example, as a soppy lament! (OHMIGAWD!! Beam me up Scottie -- I've gone and expressed an OPINION again! You're allowed to disagree, Anthony - no problem -- but remember the hackneyed old Voltaire quote.) >>We don't want to know if it makes you sick!! You clearly don't, and I'm sure masses of forumees will instantly agree with you, as they slip another Maureen Hegarty CD into the player. But as Tim Berners-Lee was pointing out on the Beeb only this week, his brainchild has had the effect of opening up debate not just to like-minded groups and mutual admiration societies but also to objectionable rotters like me. Cheers, Sixtus Beckmesser (I have locked Paul Gretton in the cellar so he can't savage any more nice people) ___ From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 06 February 2010 00:12 To: Paul Gretton Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: RE: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation Find it revolting if you must - but we don't need to be informed of it! This is a a forum for that tiny minority of people who have found Northumbrian music and culture rewarding and uplifting. If you have to disagree with a posting please do it with some understanding and respect for the person expressing their thoughts. Your response was insulting, dismissive and out of order to my way of thinking. We are a tiny minority of Northumbrian pipes lovers and should not be in the game of belittling one another's musical favourites. I am suggesting you move on from your prejudices against trained singers and listen to the whole story of the piece which seems to be more Lieder than Folk. We don't want to know if it makes you sick!! As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation
As the person whose taste was being attacked, I don't particularly mind. After all, I think, and have thought for over 40 years, that Dylan has been vastly over rated. If you're going to moan through your nose, why do it on vinyl where everyone can hear you. But I'm not going to go on and on about it, or claim I'm going to vomit, or calumniate the musicality of the many people who obviously think he's wonderful. After all they can't help it. And quite a lot of them seem to get invited on Desert Island Discs, which I'm never going to be. On 5 Feb 2010, at 23:36, Bo Albrechtsen wrote: Well spoken Anthony ! - - - - - "Nobody is too big to be polite and well behaved but many are too small ! " Bo A Denmark To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
