Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 02/28/15 12:22 PM, Bruce Lilly wrote: On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:31 PM, Nikola M minik...@gmail.com wrote: Regarding managing services on Unix-like OSes, illumos and Opensolaris descendent OS'es enjoy Service management Facility (SMF), maybe you could comment how it stand for you, comparing to other service management ways you mentioned? If you have OI installed, you could try it out. (And see if it could be improved). SMF is mostly OK after the usual learning curve. What's not OK: 1. XML sucks 2. Restarting too quickly seems to happen too frequently for some services on reboot (usually for services where the daemon forks). 3. Poor support for conversion from init scripts (and XML sucks). http://wiki.loopback.org/index.php/How_to_add_a_service_to_svc helps, but XML sucks. Hi, thank you for your valuable insights. We diverged from previous topic, (and I hope we'll continue at illumos) but I wanted it, I got it :P They cold be transferred to project ideas My answers on this are obviously off-topic reagarding forum creation and I would transfer all at least illumos-related ideas to illumos list. The question about SMF and XML is a question for illumos. I am sure there are some workarounds that can make life easier. Aha and not to forget, if you do name critical things that seems to be ignored, at your opinion, I am sure we'll all be much obliged , because that's kind of things that are needed to make fire star :) Some background to keep things in perspective: I've used mostly System V and System V-like systems for a long time, so OpenIndiana had an advantage (over e.g. BSD and BSD-like systems with their peculiar make, peculiar ps, oddball shells, etc.). A few decades ago, somebody convinced me to try Linux instead of spending $75 on an OpenSolaris license, so I've been using mostly Linux systems since then. After trying a few others, I settled on SuSE, later openSUSE. Systemd has broken too many things, too many times, and is wasting too much of my time fixing and re-fixing things that shouldn't have been broken in the first place; and alternatives (e.g. sysvinit) have been dropped). The one fast, reliable, stable journaled filesystem previously supported on openSUSE (viz. Reiserfs) has been dropped. So it's time to move on. Seems like that systemd thing on Linux , e.g. moving away from it is like catching up. while also many people would stay with their distros without realizing that something changed. One issue with OpenIndiana encountered early on is limited networking driver support; specifically, OpenIndiana has no built-in support for Marvell yukon series Gigiabit Ethernet. I was able to find a Solaris driver from Marvell's web site, burn it to physical media, and sneakernet it; it works, but I wonder whether it will continue to work for future releases... I have one 32bit driver working on 32-bit only laptop, for Marvel yukon. Since Solaris drivers (expecially network ones) tend to work for a long time on newer releases (like from S8 on today's OI - think no other platform but maybe windows could beat that actually) I would be pretty sure I could rely on that for some time (or change Gigabit LAN card if in doubt, they are cheap). Otherwise, it is illumos question. Minimum system requirements are unclear; one place says 512MB RAM, another says 768MB. Answers to this kind of questions could not be answered currently on OI, because Hipster does not value stable releases. (but could be made to do so with releasing stable) You also mentioned 32-bit killing attitude etc, so it could improve if OI have some kind of updatable /dev release that is Atm in stage of an idea. Opensolaris truly stated 512MB minimum, and with GUI, but that was in 2009.6.days. I wouldn't count on using Solaris descendent installs (especially with ZFS) on low end machines. Maybe they could be tweaked but Solarises are mostly better with partitioning larger iron with zones , zfs datasets, etc, then with entry-level configs. I have 4 32-bit (Pentium III, actually) machines which have *very* stable oscillators serving as NTP servers. They are equipped with the maximum amount of RAM supported by the motherboard -- 512 MB. So that's a critical issue (those machines have run Linux (including GUI), and 3 of the four currently run NetBSD). I have not found any similarly stable machines to replace those, so they'll keep running forever as my primary ntp servers. All four use PPS signals from GPS, so require (and have) real serial ports; the trend on newer hardware is to abandon real serial ports in favor of polled once every million-or-so nanoseconds USB with its 57 flavors of connector variants, and that won't work for PPS. Oscillators issue aside (surely there are also some modern hardware solutions these days), and with the fact there are still PCI-e x1 serial port cards, I understand what you are saying, you need _stable_ supported illumos distro that would fit your memory requirements,
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:10 PM, Nikola M minik...@gmail.com wrote: Well you see, we sort of get used to using ZFS datasets for everyting :) I have /export/home/username/.thunderbird as separate dataset and it can be used with ZFS on: ZFSOnLinux kernel module (all Linux distros, some even have prepared packages autocompile and installation), OSX (ZfsOnLinux port), FreeBSD and all illumos distros. So I can certainly share same Thunderbird profile between all those platforms (and Windows if using NFS or SMB share) :) To support multiple MUAs, you'd have to do that for each one. And that might be feasible for a single system or a LAN, but won't help if you're on a public system or somebody else's system. As explained, it takes absolutely no additional of local storage (especially with ZFS and network exports) plus Openindiana has automated self-controlling (one-click enabled) way of managing dataset snapshots, (Time slider) that can even take care of safeguarding your Mail client profile dir. Snapshots in 15 minutes, half hour, hourly, daily, weekly, monthly and yearly shapshots, without even attending to it yourself ;) Each UA stores its own (large) data per UA, per user, per system, so that's a lot of data. A separate IMAP server can mitigate that somewhat for MUAs that can use IMAP, but that doesn't solve the issue of remote access (unless your IMAP server is publicly accessible). One of the best ways to read (and search) the archives of this list, from anywhere with Internet access, is http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.os.openindiana.general . Too bad there's no https support (at least not yet). ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:31 PM, Nikola M minik...@gmail.com wrote: Regarding managing services on Unix-like OSes, illumos and Opensolaris descendent OS'es enjoy Service management Facility (SMF), maybe you could comment how it stand for you, comparing to other service management ways you mentioned? If you have OI installed, you could try it out. (And see if it could be improved). SMF is mostly OK after the usual learning curve. What's not OK: 1. XML sucks 2. Restarting too quickly seems to happen too frequently for some services on reboot (usually for services where the daemon forks). 3. Poor support for conversion from init scripts (and XML sucks). http://wiki.loopback.org/index.php/How_to_add_a_service_to_svc helps, but XML sucks. Aha and not to forget, if you do name critical things that seems to be ignored, at your opinion, I am sure we'll all be much obliged , because that's kind of things that are needed to make fire star :) Some background to keep things in perspective: I've used mostly System V and System V-like systems for a long time, so OpenIndiana had an advantage (over e.g. BSD and BSD-like systems with their peculiar make, peculiar ps, oddball shells, etc.). A few decades ago, somebody convinced me to try Linux instead of spending $75 on an OpenSolaris license, so I've been using mostly Linux systems since then. After trying a few others, I settled on SuSE, later openSUSE. Systemd has broken too many things, too many times, and is wasting too much of my time fixing and re-fixing things that shouldn't have been broken in the first place; and alternatives (e.g. sysvinit) have been dropped). The one fast, reliable, stable journaled filesystem previously supported on openSUSE (viz. Reiserfs) has been dropped. So it's time to move on. One issue with OpenIndiana encountered early on is limited networking driver support; specifically, OpenIndiana has no built-in support for Marvell yukon series Gigiabit Ethernet. I was able to find a Solaris driver from Marvell's web site, burn it to physical media, and sneakernet it; it works, but I wonder whether it will continue to work for future releases... Minimum system requirements are unclear; one place says 512MB RAM, another says 768MB. I have 4 32-bit (Pentium III, actually) machines which have *very* stable oscillators serving as NTP servers. They are equipped with the maximum amount of RAM supported by the motherboard -- 512 MB. So that's a critical issue (those machines have run Linux (including GUI), and 3 of the four currently run NetBSD). I have not found any similarly stable machines to replace those, so they'll keep running forever as my primary ntp servers. All four use PPS signals from GPS, so require (and have) real serial ports; the trend on newer hardware is to abandon real serial ports in favor of polled once every million-or-so nanoseconds USB with its 57 flavors of connector variants, and that won't work for PPS. 32-bit and 64-bit issues with OpenIndiana are a major problem. The 32-bit time_t issue arrives in just a few years (NetBSD has already solved this on 32- and 64-bit systems). Some in the OI community seem to be of the opinion that all 32-bit systems will magically disappear; they won't (see above). Some seem to be working actively to kill 32-bit support (e.g. on this list within the past 24 hours!). Even if 32-bit hardware vanished and 32-bit OS support were dropped, the issue would remain because the default for building executables -- on 64-bit systems, mind you -- is to produce 32-bit executables. Even though 64-bit code has performance advantages. Even though there is support for selecting 32-bit or 64-bit executables at run-time (isaexec, sometimes called a hack, but it works and being able to put one ISO disk in 32- or 64-bit systems to load the OS is a nice feature). Sure, it's possible to force building 64-bit code with -m64 -- but try linking that code with (for example) the 32-bit only libgamin library; NG. So to really get 64-bit code, one has to build all needed libraries (and their dependencies) from source, with -m64; there ought to be a better way. This was a show-stopper; I need to support 32-bit systems with limited RAM for critical functions that have to continue to work past January 19, 2038. And I don't want to have to build every damned library from source to get 64-bit versions on 64-bit systems. Lack of support for hardware monitoring is another major issue. The illumos web site lists as a possible project porting lm-sensors. When I last looked (until just now, and I see it's changed (slightly)), contributing required a build environment using an unobtainable compiler and toolchain; so that was a dead end. So I tried to at least get temperature data from SMART-equipped hard disk drives. No port of hddtemp. smartmontools doesn't work for IDE drives. smartmontools really doesn't work for SATA drives even though it's claimed to work (it doesn't because the driver for SATA drives (on
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 02/26/15 01:28 AM, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote: Wouldn't an NFS server take care of the issues you raise? Hi, Reginald, just to mention, I see your last several messages messages in previous period, ending up on-list but as new topics. Can you see that you hit reply on current message in your mail client and that you stay inside mailing list thread and topic, instead of composing new message with came topic or something? Or try setting or changing your Mail client or see with your mail provider about right replying procedures? It would be interesting to me to know what you concluded about this, because of previous problems with Yahoo Mail and recommendations of using it less. I am personally not fully content with Gmail, because (using it with IMAP with Thunderbird local copies and filters) my messages (bounced ones from the list ) get deleted by Gmail, so that I need to copy every message I send to the list to the List folder to see it in thread and it bugs me. Everything else works for me beside that bugger. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 02/25/15 11:47 PM, Bruce Lilly wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 3:53 AM, Nikola M minik...@gmail.com wrote: You can also download, ungzip , concatenate with cat (cat *.txt listname) and use in Thunderbird as local searchable mailing list archive. If you point new mail list messages in that folder in client, you can have full up to date archive. One can, if one is so inclined. And repeat the whole process for each user who wants to read the messages. Hm, that is interesting remark. I was thinking of that. Maybe there could be automatically made whole mailing list archive available, as one file, so it could be always fresh-downloaded for local archive form Mail client inclusion. :) That might be done, to spare one from doing wget, gunzip *.gz, cat , mv. :) Or may be not. And for other MUAs. And for other OSes, if a multi-boot system. And on each separate system on which it is desired to read the messages. Well you see, we sort of get used to using ZFS datasets for everyting :) I have /export/home/username/.thunderbird as separate dataset and it can be used with ZFS on: ZFSOnLinux kernel module (all Linux distros, some even have prepared packages autocompile and installation), OSX (ZfsOnLinux port), FreeBSD and all illumos distros. So I can certainly share same Thunderbird profile between all those platforms (and Windows if using NFS or SMB share) :) Of course, that was not your point of searchability and versatility for average Joe needing to sniff how things are going on on lists, but I couldn't stop myself to point how ZFS is multiplatform and great :P But it's rather inconvenient to do all of that, and it takes a great deal of local storage. As explained, it takes absolutely no additional of local storage (especially with ZFS and network exports) plus Openindiana has automated self-controlling (one-click enabled) way of managing dataset snapshots, (Time slider) that can even take care of safeguarding your Mail client profile dir. Snapshots in 15 minutes, half hour, hourly, daily, weekly, monthly and yearly shapshots, without even attending to it yourself ;) Also snapshots use only that much additional space as there are _bits_ (clusters) changed between one and next snapshot, so it's like backup in-place (not real backup, but let's play with how it sounds) :) And yes, it's in production since 2006 or so ;P rpool/export/home/user/.thunderbird@zfs-auto-snap_monthly-2015-01-31-08h57 834M - 3.82G - rpool/export/home/user/.thunderbird@zfs-auto-snap_weekly-2015-02-07-08h57 605M - 4.77G - rpool/export/home/user/.thunderbird@zfs-auto-snap_weekly-2015-02-14-11h36 42.8M - 4.83G - rpool/export/home/user/.thunderbird@zfs-auto-snap_weekly-2015-02-22-10h28 27.5M - 4.88G - rpool/export/home/user/.thunderbird@zfs-auto-snap_frequent-2015-02-27-00h08 2.39M - 4.85G - rpool/export/home/user/.thunderbird@zfs-auto-snap_frequent-2015-02-27-00h23 1.43M - 4.85G - rpool/export/home/user/.thunderbird@zfs-auto-snap_frequent-2015-02-27-00h38 1.52M - 4.85G - rpool/export/home/user/.thunderbird@zfs-auto-snap_hourly-2015-02-27-00h53 1.32M - 4.85G - (re-used with Linux, OSX, illumos and Windows over Nfs/Smb) :) ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 02/26/15 12:16 AM, Bruce Lilly wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 3:53 AM, Nikola M minik...@gmail.com wrote: If you find other things out of date or not representing current state of affairs on the Wiki, feel free to post a bug report, comment or request Wiki account if you feel you can contribute some content to the Wiki. It's pretty much everything; for example, just a few clicks from Wiki+Home gets one to http://wiki.openindiana.org/oi/OpenIndiana+Releases which would be funny if it weren't so sad (here it is late in the first quarter of 2015, and the 2011.Q4 release is Pending). If it looked as though there might be a road map leading somewhere I might have been more inclined to pursue OpenIndiana as a Linux replacement (must get away from the systemd debacle), but I couldn't find anything encouraging, and while there is a lot that looks interesting, there are too many critical issues that seem to be being ignored, so I'm focusing on something (viz. NetBSD) that does appear to be moving forward. Yeah, you are absolutely right. So here are firstly - mailing lists to move things forward. Soon as people diagnose what everyone is capable of doing to contribute (in terms of free time, money, knowledge and craftsmanship) in various areas, things can move forward. Regarding managing services on Unix-like OSes, illumos and Opensolaris descendent OS'es enjoy Service management Facility (SMF), maybe you could comment how it stand for you, comparing to other service management ways you mentioned? If you have OI installed, you could try it out. (And see if it could be improved). Most encouraging about OI currently is that no one stands in your way! :) If wanting to fork, build or use existing development machines , just request account. If wanting to make changes (you are already making them actually), just do. If want to form a group over some issue of a RFE, just form it :P Rest is coming your way. Aha and not to forget, if you do name critical things that seems to be ignored, at your opinion, I am sure we'll all be much obliged , because that's kind of things that are needed to make fire star :) Oh yes and there's tiny-miny License difference between CDDL and *BSD. We are like, Copyleft instead of Free for all. But CDDL can link with other licenses (open or closed) to create distributable binaries, so code could be shared between *BSD variants and others. So one can have both cakes and be Copyleft. Ah and Solaris (illumos is Opensolaris descendant) is much better then anything else and it usually foster ABI compatibility, driver compatibility , nicer network speed and virtualization (crossbow, zones) etc :) Actually we miss UDF support that's nice in NetBSD, that things needs porting :) Everything else, Netbsd is missing even more :P ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 3:53 AM, Nikola M minik...@gmail.com wrote: You can also download, ungzip , concatenate with cat (cat *.txt listname) and use in Thunderbird as local searchable mailing list archive. If you point new mail list messages in that folder in client, you can have full up to date archive. One can, if one is so inclined. And repeat the whole process for each user who wants to read the messages. And for other MUAs. And for other OSes, if a multi-boot system. And on each separate system on which it is desired to read the messages. But it's rather inconvenient to do all of that, and it takes a great deal of local storage. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 3:53 AM, Nikola M minik...@gmail.com wrote: If you find other things out of date or not representing current state of affairs on the Wiki, feel free to post a bug report, comment or request Wiki account if you feel you can contribute some content to the Wiki. It's pretty much everything; for example, just a few clicks from Wiki+Home gets one to http://wiki.openindiana.org/oi/OpenIndiana+Releases which would be funny if it weren't so sad (here it is late in the first quarter of 2015, and the 2011.Q4 release is Pending). If it looked as though there might be a road map leading somewhere I might have been more inclined to pursue OpenIndiana as a Linux replacement (must get away from the systemd debacle), but I couldn't find anything encouraging, and while there is a lot that looks interesting, there are too many critical issues that seem to be being ignored, so I'm focusing on something (viz. NetBSD) that does appear to be moving forward. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
Wouldn't an NFS server take care of the issues you raise? On Wed, 2/25/15, Bruce Lilly bruce.li...@gmail.com wrote: Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 4:47 PM On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 3:53 AM, Nikola M minik...@gmail.com wrote: You can also download, ungzip , concatenate with cat (cat *.txt listname) and use in Thunderbird as local searchable mailing list archive. If you point new mail list messages in that folder in client, you can have full up to date archive. One can, if one is so inclined. And repeat the whole process for each user who wants to read the messages. And for other MUAs. And for other OSes, if a multi-boot system. And on each separate system on which it is desired to read the messages. But it's rather inconvenient to do all of that, and it takes a great deal of local storage. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
Hi Syncom sounds interesting. I Know that the Pirateparty in Germany is still quite active and uses those technologies for their Party Internal discussions. Further Development thus seems to be very likely. Also it syncs Already existing servers so we would not need to migrate the mailing list to a new Daemon. The only thing we would then need is the PiratePartys Forum Software. Which seems to phpBB3 FUDforum is a forum that has compatibility to other Discussion Technologies. It would require a migration from the exiting Mailman. NNTP-Forum is the Same. But it does not even have Mailinglist interface. We could also ask the Pireparty for some infos about their Software. It seems they already have what we want. Greetings Till Nikola M schrieb am Tuesday 24 February 2015 10.06:57: On 02/23/15 10:57 PM, Bruce Lilly wrote: There is of course gmane (http://gmane.org/) if somebody wants to set up a newsgroup and mail-news gateway. This is also very interesting, I also think I heard of solution for representing Usenet/Newsgroup messages ina Web-graphical way, so if mail-news gateway is workong, that could be graphical solution for using Mailing lists. I have found FUDForum, http://cvs.prohost.org/index.php, (with mail list-news) Syncom, http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Syncom and Nntp-forum https://github.com/arkanis/nntp-forum It stays to be seen what is the best solution. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 02/23/15 10:57 PM, Bruce Lilly wrote: http://wiki.openindiana.org/oi/Mailing+Lists says: Read-Only archives The mailing lists are archived over at Google Groups http://groups.google.com/ but like many things on the OpenIndiana wiki, that is out of date and untrue. Hi I just edited that OI wiki page to point to Mailman archives. http://wiki.openindiana.org/oi/Mailing+Lists You can also download, ungzip , concatenate with cat (cat *.txt listname) and use in Thunderbird as local searchable mailing list archive. If you point new mail list messages in that folder in client, you can have full up to date archive. If you find other things out of date or not representing current state of affairs on the Wiki, feel free to post a bug report, comment or request Wiki account if you feel you can contribute some content to the Wiki. Thanks. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 02/23/15 10:57 PM, Bruce Lilly wrote: There is of course gmane (http://gmane.org/) if somebody wants to set up a newsgroup and mail-news gateway. This is also very interesting, I also think I heard of solution for representing Usenet/Newsgroup messages ina Web-graphical way, so if mail-news gateway is workong, that could be graphical solution for using Mailing lists. I have found FUDForum, http://cvs.prohost.org/index.php, (with mail list-news) Syncom, http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Syncom and Nntp-forum https://github.com/arkanis/nntp-forum It stays to be seen what is the best solution. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
http://wiki.openindiana.org/oi/Mailing+Lists says: Read-Only archives The mailing lists are archived over at Google Groups http://groups.google.com/ but like many things on the OpenIndiana wiki, that is out of date and untrue. There is of course gmane (http://gmane.org/) if somebody wants to set up a newsgroup and mail-news gateway. On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Nikola M minik...@gmail.com wrote: On 02/23/15 08:18 PM, Krzysztof Grzempa wrote: Maybe it is god idea to have it in a graphical way, but if mailing list of doing things is preserved, then there's no objection to Web representation of mailing lists. Totally agree. Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong but google groups a a way of graphical representation of mailing groups. I'm not saying this should be migrated there but maybe there is some software which can presents emails like that ? Maybe something like that is in the line of sight for Mailing list representation. Of course using Google services for something like that is surely out of question, but self-hosting software solution is a solution to use, if any is recommended. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 01/28/15 01:28 PM, Daniel Kjar wrote: Because when a person searches for help using oi you end up scrolling through email lists which is not conducive to posting questions and it makes it feel like a closed discussion. It also makes it feel like a dead project. If it were not dead why wouldn't you be us I g a forum? Personally I like the email list but I can't deny how the younger generations like to interact and how email lists display in search engines. On Jan 25, 2015 11:07 AM, Glenn Holmer shad...@lyonlabs.org wrote: Sooner or later, younger generations (finally) learn how to use e-mail client program and to appreciate ability to have whole list archives offline and online. And younger generations might find a way to represent mailing lists in a Web way, not the other way around. You are free to give us solution of representing mailing list in graphical way, without loosing abilities of mailing list. If mindset of the observer is closed or framed, then the way of representing it is not the biggest problem. Personally, I feel every forum with centralized administration and admins who delete people's posts very much more closed discussion then mailing list. Maybe it is god idea to have it in a graphical way, but if mailing list of doing things is preserved, then there's no objection to Web representation of mailing lists. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
In message 20150130230728.ga22...@mail.messagingengine.com, Gary Mills writes : How about a mailing list for developers and a forum for users. Would that work? FreeBSD Foundation provides both web forums and mailing lists for both developers and users: URL:https://www.freebsd.org/community.html forums.freebsd.org is powered by XenForo and that stack looks compatable with OI: URL:https://xenforo.com/purchase/ John groenv...@acm.org ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 30/01/2015 18:43, David Brodbeck : There is nothing to stop you from setting up an independent project ? Robert Jones On 30/01/2015 18:43, David Brodbeck wrote: Oh, I went into the discussion knowing there would never be a forum. It doesn't fit with the character and target audience of this project, which is firmly rooted in old UNIX traditions. If it were still possible to use UUCP bang paths, this list would do it. ;) I just found the generation-based ire amusing. Lots of people arguing that kids these days just don't know what's good for them, instead of just saying I prefer it the way we've always done it. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
Yes, thumbs up :) Oh, I went into the discussion knowing there would never be a forum. It doesn't fit with the character and target audience of this project, which is firmly rooted in old UNIX traditions. If it were still possible to use UUCP bang paths, this list would do it. ;) I just found the generation-based ire amusing. Lots of people arguing that kids these days just don't know what's good for them, instead of just saying I prefer it the way we've always done it. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 01/30/15 15:46, private Mail wrote: On 30/01/2015 18:43, David Brodbeck : There is nothing to stop you from setting up an independent project ? Robert Jones On 30/01/2015 18:43, David Brodbeck wrote: Oh, I went into the discussion knowing there would never be a forum. It Indeed! If you think it's worthwhile, do it. I hope you weren't asking permission. -- James Carlson 42.703N 71.076W carls...@workingcode.com ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 10:43:50AM -0800, David Brodbeck wrote: Oh, I went into the discussion knowing there would never be a forum. It doesn't fit with the character and target audience of this project, which is firmly rooted in old UNIX traditions. How about a mailing list for developers and a forum for users. Would that work? -- -Gary Mills--refurb--Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada- ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
Oh, I went into the discussion knowing there would never be a forum. It doesn't fit with the character and target audience of this project, which is firmly rooted in old UNIX traditions. If it were still possible to use UUCP bang paths, this list would do it. ;) I just found the generation-based ire amusing. Lots of people arguing that kids these days just don't know what's good for them, instead of just saying I prefer it the way we've always done it. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Nikola M minik...@gmail.com wrote: People in the business and personal world are using Mail clients very intensively. Not every Mail server admin or service provider is happy with keeping all copies of all messages on servers forever, so Mail clients are in wide use and they will stay being one of main tools for actually main service on the internet, e-mail. In my experience that's mostly only true in shops that rely heavily on MS Exchange and MS Outlook. Most other places I've worked either had already outsourced to a webmail provider, or were trying to do so. But your mileage may vary. Nothing stops you to use IMAP client on all your devices and I bet there is wide range of solutions on any possible platform, correct me if I am wrong. I used to do that, but they were constantly getting out of sync, disagreeing about which messages were read/unread, undeleting each others' deleted messages, leaving messages-that-weren't-messages with config information in them, etc. It seems that while IMAP is a standard, the way clients actually use the server is not at all standardized. Eventually it got to be too much of a hassle. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 01/31/15 01:57 AM, David Brodbeck wrote: On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Nikola M minik...@gmail.com wrote: People in the business and personal world are using Mail clients very intensively. Not every Mail server admin or service provider is happy with keeping all copies of all messages on servers forever, so Mail clients are in wide use and they will stay being one of main tools for actually main service on the internet, e-mail. In my experience that's mostly only true in shops that rely heavily on MS Exchange and MS Outlook. Most other places I've worked either had already outsourced to a webmail provider, or were trying to do so. But your mileage may vary. Nothing stops you to use IMAP client on all your devices and I bet there is wide range of solutions on any possible platform, correct me if I am wrong. I used to do that, but they were constantly getting out of sync, disagreeing about which messages were read/unread, undeleting each others' deleted messages, leaving messages-that-weren't-messages with config information in them, etc. It seems that while IMAP is a standard, the way clients actually use the server is not at all standardized. Eventually it got to be too much of a hassle. Dunno, that's why I have solution of: Thunderbird everywhere (tm) . :) At least they support all desktop platforms. And people usually recognize Outlook is one-platform and costly solution. And for rest of (not so sane) clients, there is POP3. Actually I hope more people would realize over time that having personal mail client , even in the form of isolated Web client for user only, is better choice for freedom etc. And who knows maybe something else will sprung up on internet, who knows. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 01/28/15 08:28 PM, David Brodbeck wrote: On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Nikola M minik...@gmail.com wrote: I think it breaks down mostly between people that know how to use mail client, valuing their privacy and people who just click on someone's proprietary services, depending on someone else for use of even basic services on internet. Mail clients are always problematic, though, and I'm not surprised people don't favor them anymore. People in the business and personal world are using Mail clients very intensively. Not every Mail server admin or service provider is happy with keeping all copies of all messages on servers forever, so Mail clients are in wide use and they will stay being one of main tools for actually main service on the internet, e-mail. Heck, I've used GMail for my mail for several years, even though I know how to set up and use an IMAP client and I used to run my own mail server. The reason is I own four different computing devices and it's not reasonable anymore to commit to using only one of them to read email; having the mail stuck on one device's disk became a burden. GMail offered the only reasonable cross-device solution for me at the time. Nothing stops you to use IMAP client on all your devices and I bet there is wide range of solutions on any possible platform, correct me if I am wrong. The privacy argument is interesting because it cuts both ways. A mailing list means no one can tell which messages you've read, but it also means broadcasting your personal email address to the world. It does not need to be that way (broadcasting e-mail address to the world). Usually it is enough not to have spam and it is even not so bad to be able to be contacted by wide range of people. Mailing list itself can have mechanism of cloaking everyone's mail addresses, that is what Freenode is doing. Bur Freenode also does not allow download of cloaked mailing list archives to users, so one more reason to host mailing lists yourself. A forum lets you hide your address (and, if you use a proxy, even your IP) but not which specific items you read. But forum does not let you hide anything else from forum owners, including private messages and also it locks people inside forum itself, until they exchange their... mail addresses. If one uses proxy-like techniques, say, Vpn, tor etc, it can also hide using any service if wants to, so nothing new here. Using Newsgroups needs just ordinary mail client with Newsgroup support and subscribing to groups. I'm quite aware of how newsgroups work; I started out reading them in tin in college. You're forgetting that it also needs an ISP with a working news server, which is increasingly rare. I don't think my current ISP runs one. Last time I used a newsgroup was about ten years ago, and even then it was a matter of sifting a relatively small number of legitimate messages out of an ocean of spam and broken threads. It's kind of sad how that medium has declined. I discovered that German Pirate Party group has a software solution to link News group with it's web representation that looks like Forum. That could fulfill needs of both Web-Gui people and those used to Mail client with News support. (And I bet there are some NNTP-Mailing list solutions for exchange messages or something, too) If anyone objects to having only mailing list , that could be dug up but I suppose splitting Mailing lists and other representations could be productive even at very high volume of new users, not happening soon. If someone thinks that Influx of new users would be largely contributed by allowing them to use Web interface to the list or something else, please say. I personally think that clear blank forum or something would scare people away more effectively, then using Mail client with existing mailing lists. But linking them all together could be viable if done right and someone needs to administer it, as well. of exchanging messages. (both when I am online and offline!) Yes, but that only works if you were subscribed when the question was asked... Actually as I mentioned, one Can download mailing list archives (usually in .gz archives per month), unpack, concatenate them and give to mail client as directory content. After recognizing messages in it, one can even sent such relived archive up to IMAP server (like your Gmail) (Crtl+A then copy to Dir on server) and you then can use full Mailing list Archive in any IMAP client you use, and even with Web interface. :) Besides, searching mailing list archives is very easy, just narrow web search engine to specific path where message archives are stored. Assuming the archive hasn't blocked web spiders to try to prevent email address harvesting (an increasingly common technique.) If archive can be downloaded, then it can be searched. I think you are right about spiders protection for web search, but hey, archives are there to download. I like it much
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
Privacy is keyword here. I consider constant delivery of discussion to my email as intrusion. I think it breaks down mostly between people that know how to use mail client, valuing their privacy ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
The next room is still invaded. Dmitry Kozhinov wrote: / Privacy is keyword here. I consider constant delivery of discussion to // my email as intrusion. / That's what auto-foldering is for - have your mail client automatically move it to an openindiana folder so you don't see it until you want to. -- Andrew ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
Dmitry Kozhinov wrote: Privacy is keyword here. I consider constant delivery of discussion to my email as intrusion. That's what auto-foldering is for - have your mail client automatically move it to an openindiana folder so you don't see it until you want to. -- Andrew ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
Because when a person searches for help using oi you end up scrolling through email lists which is not conducive to posting questions and it makes it feel like a closed discussion. It also makes it feel like a dead project. If it were not dead why wouldn't you be us I g a forum? Personally I like the email list but I can't deny how the younger generations like to interact and how email lists display in search engines. On Jan 25, 2015 11:07 AM, Glenn Holmer shad...@lyonlabs.org wrote: On 01/25/2015 09:39 AM, Private wrote: On 25/01/2015 14:04, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote: It would certainly help non development traffic and open the community. Certainly? How? -- Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682) After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 1:53 PM, James Carlson carls...@workingcode.com wrote: Indeed. That's mostly as a side-effect of all those developers setting up little Facebook-like forum fiefdoms. I hate having to visit 100 of these just to keep up, so I don't. If it comes to me via email (for which I've subscribed), then I read it. Otherwise, I likely won't see it. Personally, I think the best of both worlds is a forum where I can opt-in to get email when topic areas that interest me have activity. That way I don't have to constantly check, but I don't have to deal with vast volumes of email, either. (I have mailing list folders with hundreds of unread messages in them. The odds of my ever sorting through them for the few topics that interest me are pretty minimal.) That said, the steady withering of this project since Oracle withdrew support makes it all kind of moot; a dozen or so email messages a week isn't much of a burden. At this point I view it as a historic preservation project, which I follow for the one OpenSolaris server I have that hasn't been replaced yet. -- D. Brodbeck System Administrator, Linguistics University of Washington GPG key fingerprint: 0DB7 4B50 8910 DBC5 B510 79C4 3970 2BC3 2078 D875 ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 5:09 PM, David Brodbeck bro...@uw.edu wrote: That said, the steady withering of this project since Oracle withdrew support makes it all kind of moot; a dozen or so email messages a week isn't much of a burden. At this point I view it as a historic preservation project, which I follow for the one OpenSolaris server I have that hasn't been replaced yet. damn. we are utter shit. let's just do what this important guy says. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Nikola M minik...@gmail.com wrote: I think it breaks down mostly between people that know how to use mail client, valuing their privacy and people who just click on someone's proprietary services, depending on someone else for use of even basic services on internet. Mail clients are always problematic, though, and I'm not surprised people don't favor them anymore. Heck, I've used GMail for my mail for several years, even though I know how to set up and use an IMAP client and I used to run my own mail server. The reason is I own four different computing devices and it's not reasonable anymore to commit to using only one of them to read email; having the mail stuck on one device's disk became a burden. GMail offered the only reasonable cross-device solution for me at the time. The privacy argument is interesting because it cuts both ways. A mailing list means no one can tell which messages you've read, but it also means broadcasting your personal email address to the world. A forum lets you hide your address (and, if you use a proxy, even your IP) but not which specific items you read. I also do not feel any push when using Newsgroups or mailing lists. Messages are simply there in their folders, waiting for me to read them, when I like. With one on the plus side, that I can take them with me and not depend on some centralized web server to serve them to me, online. I meant push in the technical sense; content that is sent from the server to you without an explicit request, vs content that only arrives when you ask for it. (Although technically IMAP is also pull; it's just these days polling the server and pulling down messages is usually done without any explicit action by the user.) Using Newsgroups needs just ordinary mail client with Newsgroup support and subscribing to groups. I'm quite aware of how newsgroups work; I started out reading them in tin in college. You're forgetting that it also needs an ISP with a working news server, which is increasingly rare. I don't think my current ISP runs one. Last time I used a newsgroup was about ten years ago, and even then it was a matter of sifting a relatively small number of legitimate messages out of an ocean of spam and broken threads. It's kind of sad how that medium has declined. My mailing list archives in my Mail client are most searchable of all ways of exchanging messages. (both when I am online and offline!) Yes, but that only works if you were subscribed when the question was asked... Besides, searching mailing list archives is very easy, just narrow web search engine to specific path where message archives are stored. Assuming the archive hasn't blocked web spiders to try to prevent email address harvesting (an increasingly common technique.) I like it much better then needing to browse through some simulation of newsgroups and mailing lists on web sites, that forums are. I think this is the nub of the problem. Forums vary widely in quality and some are quite usable, but if you come in expecting them to work exactly like an NNTP client you'll always be disappointed. -- D. Brodbeck System Administrator, Linguistics University of Washington GPG key fingerprint: 0DB7 4B50 8910 DBC5 B510 79C4 3970 2BC3 2078 D875 ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 01/27/15 09:41 PM, David Brodbeck wrote: The forum vs. email split seems to break down along the lines of polling vs. push. People who have used email for a long time and know how to I think it breaks down mostly between people that know how to use mail client, valuing their privacy and people who just click on someone's proprietary services, depending on someone else for use of even basic services on internet. I also do not feel any push when using Newsgroups or mailing lists. Messages are simply there in their folders, waiting for me to read them, when I like. With one on the plus side, that I can take them with me and not depend on some centralized web server to serve them to me, online. It makes me able to control data flow from internet to me, something that seems many people forget to do in their lives. Your observation between push and polling is interesting and sounds nice, althrough not much accurate. Forums also push messages, only users do not OWN anything on Forums. There are no private places in the cloud and services for individual, nor right to freely comunicate without restrictions. (like, someone deleting your account and all your messages on forum, even if you followed all good mannered rules) manage large amounts of it prefer the push model; people who are less familiar with it, and think in terms of online communities, tend to prefer forums. I like email lists, and find visiting multiple websites to poll forums cumbersome, but this seems to be a really unfamiliar and uncomfortable model for anyone under 30 -- much like how many people my age are not familiar with newsgroups and have no idea how to use them. Newsgroups are what Forums are made to emulate, although very badly and with no purpose other then local one-man controlled exchange of comments. Main difference in my opinion is that Newsgroups are decentralized and standardized at protocol level, much like E-mail, and Forums are just.. wild, crazy and mostly useless. Using Newsgroups needs just ordinary mail client with Newsgroup support and subscribing to groups. Difference is that you don't need to make filters to use it like for mailing lists and that people using one server exchange messages with people using other servers. On forums companies and sites own content. Or at least do with them what they like including deleting it. On newsgroups and mailing lists, content tends to be multiplied, copied, archived and preserved for future use of wisdom (if any :) ) I will say that as long as forums stick around (a major caveat) they seem to be more searchable; search engines seem well-tuned to access them, compared to email archives; email list archives also often have broken threading and are increasingly being made private due to spam concerns. My mailing list archives in my Mail client are most searchable of all ways of exchanging messages. (both when I am online and offline!) I just download mailing list archives, concatenate them all to one large file and give it to mail client under folder, to chew it. I always get beautifully threaded messages and topics. (Except when someone was top-posting). That is exactly much better then, in contrast to, Forums where one is forced to click through eternity over flat messages displaying one under another with no information who answers to who. Besides, searching mailing list archives is very easy, just narrow web search engine to specific path where message archives are stored. I like it much better then needing to browse through some simulation of newsgroups and mailing lists on web sites, that forums are. If Web representation of Newsgroups and mailing lists is distributed and follow same exchange principles, then that kind of Web representation, called Forum could be nice. That would be actually making Mail/News client in form of Web presentation, that Gmail, Yahoo and others truly are. (And that blurred server/client nature of internet to younger generations). ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
The forum vs. email split seems to break down along the lines of polling vs. push. People who have used email for a long time and know how to manage large amounts of it prefer the push model; people who are less familiar with it, and think in terms of online communities, tend to prefer forums. I like email lists, and find visiting multiple websites to poll forums cumbersome, but this seems to be a really unfamiliar and uncomfortable model for anyone under 30 -- much like how many people my age are not familiar with newsgroups and have no idea how to use them. I will say that as long as forums stick around (a major caveat) they seem to be more searchable; search engines seem well-tuned to access them, compared to email archives; email list archives also often have broken threading and are increasingly being made private due to spam concerns. On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Glenn Holmer shad...@lyonlabs.org wrote: On 01/25/2015 11:41 AM, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote: I asked what was broken, so the text below misquotes me entirely. The message I was responding to quoted incorrectly: http://openindiana.org/pipermail/openindiana-discuss/2015-January/017043.html I do not think anything needs to be changed. I am in agreement with you. A forum is not necessary. -- Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682) After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss -- D. Brodbeck System Administrator, Linguistics University of Washington GPG key fingerprint: 0DB7 4B50 8910 DBC5 B510 79C4 3970 2BC3 2078 D875 ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
Mark Stephens mstephens1...@gmail.com writes: I would like to know will this project eventually get a discussion forum vs using mailing list. It would be a major step back if it meant losing NNTP access. NNTP is so much more efficient. And a whole lot faster. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
I am not confusing these terms. This thread has began from a proposal to implement a forum instead of, or in addition to current mailing list. There were opinions then that the current system is not broken (that is, already working as a forum). I was advocating the idea of creating real forum, and this is why i wrote the word current forum in quotes. Despite some inconveniences of mailing list as opposed to a forum, I agree with Reginald Beardsley in the opinion that the current system is working well and does not need to be changed. The script written 20 years ago should work now and in the future. This is why I like real UNIX. Dmitry. / The current forum spreads out its presence to my email inbox, // instead of staying at openindiana.org site. This is undesirable (at // least for me), and forces me to subscribe every time when I want to // contribute to the forum, and unsubscribe immediately after that. Just // want to keep my email and this forum separate. // // Dmitry./ / /That is because you confuse terms forum, mailing list and using of your mail client. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
My point was to *not* use email client in order to participate in discussions. Thank you for the explanation on how to use a email client. Actually I am the author of one, made in year 2000 (15 years ago) - see desktopfay.com . Regards, Dmitry. That is because you confuse ... and using of your mail client. So it's up to every user to know how to use it's own mail client ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 26 January 2015 10:06:54 CET, Nikola M minik...@gmail.com wrote: On 01/25/15 10:55 PM, Andrew Gabriel wrote: Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote: The archive provides a good interface for older discussions. I'm also of the opinion that part of the price of getting help from others is providing it when the opportunity presents itself. Or set up to auto-folder or auto-delete the emails during periods you aren't following the list. The archives are not a good interface for older discussions - I use my email client on a dedicated folder to search the archives. Although I personally hate forums, I am also aware that use of email by those currently of university age has plummeted, with many not using it at all. If someone with an interest in forums came forward with a proposal that would bi-directionally mirror the mailing list discussion in a forum, that would open the discussions up to some younger people who won't follow a project via a mailing list. There is an IRC channel, #openindiana on chat.freenode.net I also very much hate forums, because they do not solve any problem, but make problems worse. One of the problems is actually administering forums and frame of mind of forums users, that is different with forum users and mailing list users, where forum users perceive and imply less freedom and less self-control when using them. On mailing lists, there are no deleting messages like on the forums and no oversight over direct communication between list members. Forums have more fluctuation of new users and also administering against Spam that could come to the list, not through mail servers, but through direct Http(s) postings. Having mailing list spread to web interface too (that also includes subscribing) could be Ok solution. I understand that younger people not accustomed to using nomal Mail client application, would prefer to have Web interface to mailing list. Only I suggest that it is _imperative_ to have same users, same accounts, same passwords and same mail addresses subscribed to the mailing list, aether if it is in ordinary mailing list form in mail client, or if it is displayed in the form of Web interface, it needs to stay same content. Separating forum and mailing lists woud be grave mistake. (Like it was on Opensolaris days) What is the existing software on server side, for displaying mailing list to Web interface and allow subscribers to reply to the list via web interface, that could be used? ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss Separating forum and mailing lists woud be grave mistake. (Like it was on Opensolaris days) Well, ideologically these were not separated - tyere was a bridge to post emails onto forums and forum posts into mailing lists, so threads could be discussed in both. The implementation sucked however and more often failed than worked. But the intent was to provide both venues, and I should confess I came into many software-discussion communities via their web-forums, blog comments, etc. Posting error traces (esp. from Live envs) is often more convenient via a browser than fetching and setting up a mail-client, too. Notifications of replies into email (at least) were a great bonus, since I don't want to keep hundreds of tabs open with all forums and threads of interest to me ;) On a bonus side, when there is some interesting discussion of a problem I do too have, and somebody touched it a month or a year ago, subscribing to a list anew won't help me respond to that old thread with its context and my new questions on the matter. However replying to a forum post is open to anybody including newbies anytime, and it is a benefit IMHO. So from me - +1 to a solution that would well integrate forums and email, both-ways and reliably. Jim -- Typos courtesy of K-9 Mail on my Samsung Android ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 01/25/15 05:28 PM, Dmitry Kozhinov wrote: The current forum spreads out its presence to my email inbox, instead of staying at openindiana.org site. This is undesirable (at least for me), and forces me to subscribe every time when I want to contribute to the forum, and unsubscribe immediately after that. Just want to keep my email and this forum separate. Dmitry. That is because you confuse terms forum, mailing list and using of your mail client. Forums are parts of web sites, connected to local per-site database that simulates writing messages , viewing them and all other functions. With forums, no one actually send or post anything, it is totally under discression of site/domain owner to manage them. Forums usually have not very functioning views of message threads, they are under total control of site owner , does not allow privacy in messages between users and are actually poor replacemnt for mailing list (but usually with Web GUI). Mailing lists also rely on centralized mail server (that one subscribes to) but users use their own mail client applications and treat traffic on the list like ordinary mail messages. It is customary for mailing list users to set FILTERS in their own mail applications or webmail they use, so that every message on mailing list ends up on directory under Inbox. (Usually filtering by List-ID mail header). So it's up to every user to know how to use it's own mail client software or service, set up filters and be done with it. Just to mention, Gmail that I use (and I use is both with WebGUI/webmail and as IMAP with Thunderbird with filters), have not so nice feature of not displaying my own (bounced) messages that I send to mailing list. So I don't see my own messages on the list, until I copy them manually inside my Inbox. It is only Gmail's problem so for extended mailing list use, other mail then Gmail is better. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 01/25/15 10:55 PM, Andrew Gabriel wrote: Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote: The archive provides a good interface for older discussions. I'm also of the opinion that part of the price of getting help from others is providing it when the opportunity presents itself. Or set up to auto-folder or auto-delete the emails during periods you aren't following the list. The archives are not a good interface for older discussions - I use my email client on a dedicated folder to search the archives. Although I personally hate forums, I am also aware that use of email by those currently of university age has plummeted, with many not using it at all. If someone with an interest in forums came forward with a proposal that would bi-directionally mirror the mailing list discussion in a forum, that would open the discussions up to some younger people who won't follow a project via a mailing list. There is an IRC channel, #openindiana on chat.freenode.net I also very much hate forums, because they do not solve any problem, but make problems worse. One of the problems is actually administering forums and frame of mind of forums users, that is different with forum users and mailing list users, where forum users perceive and imply less freedom and less self-control when using them. On mailing lists, there are no deleting messages like on the forums and no oversight over direct communication between list members. Forums have more fluctuation of new users and also administering against Spam that could come to the list, not through mail servers, but through direct Http(s) postings. Having mailing list spread to web interface too (that also includes subscribing) could be Ok solution. I understand that younger people not accustomed to using nomal Mail client application, would prefer to have Web interface to mailing list. Only I suggest that it is _imperative_ to have same users, same accounts, same passwords and same mail addresses subscribed to the mailing list, aether if it is in ordinary mailing list form in mail client, or if it is displayed in the form of Web interface, it needs to stay same content. Separating forum and mailing lists woud be grave mistake. (Like it was on Opensolaris days) What is the existing software on server side, for displaying mailing list to Web interface and allow subscribers to reply to the list via web interface, that could be used? ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 01/26/15 03:06 PM, Dmitry Kozhinov wrote: I am not confusing these terms. This thread has began from a proposal to implement a forum instead of, or in addition to current mailing list. There were opinions then that the current system is not broken (that is, already working as a forum). I was advocating the idea of creating real forum, and this is why i wrote the word current forum in quotes. It would be disastrous to separate forum and mailing list as said. it would be confusing, time consuming hard to follow, etc. But if implemented 1-1 message between mailing list and web interface it could be useful. Despite some inconveniences of mailing list as opposed to a forum, I agree with Reginald Beardsley in the opinion that the current system is working well and does not need to be changed. The script written 20 years ago should work now and in the future. This is why I like real UNIX. Yeah, me too. Until some solution surface that extends using existing mailing lists , with Web interface, mailing list is a way that is proven and that works. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 01/26/15 04:25 PM, Jim Klimov wrote: Well, ideologically these were not separated - tyere was a bridge to post emails onto forums and forum posts into mailing lists, so threads could be discussed in both. Sonds like that was on the right track. Thanks for clarifying. The implementation sucked however and more often failed than worked. But the intent was to provide both venues, and I should confess I came into many software-discussion communities via their web-forums, blog comments, etc. Posting error traces (esp. from Live envs) is often more convenient via a browser than fetching and setting up a mail-client, too. Notifications of replies into email (at least) were a great bonus, since I don't want to keep hundreds of tabs open with all forums and threads of interest to me ;) That is also great observation and benefit, if implemented right. I usually see mail client as superior way of using mailing lists instead of forums for threaded view, notification and ability to have archived discussions I can search locally. But clearly there are benefits of using Web view. On a bonus side, when there is some interesting discussion of a problem I do too have, and somebody touched it a month or a year ago, subscribing to a list anew won't help me respond to that old thread with its context and my new questions on the matter. However replying to a forum post is open to anybody including newbies anytime, and it is a benefit IMHO. Upon subscribing to mailing list, that is new to me, I usually download mailing list archives from the beginning of the list life (usually unpack from .gz files), concatenate them in one archive and after subscribing and mail filters set, I close Thunderbird and copy file in place of folder file that Thunderbird uses. And voila - after starting Thunderbird, I have full list archive :) There surely could be better way of making available up-to-date full list archive for easier use, and Web interface is sometimes more convenient, but just to say that, one can respond to old threads too, using mail client, if have list archive locally. So from me - +1 to a solution that would well integrate forums and email, both-ways and reliably. That would be great, with of course mentioning that posting from web interface to the list, would need at least one to many maintainers, of course if solution works well (same user accounts etc.) . ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 01/26/15 03:51 PM, Dmitry Kozhinov wrote: My point was to *not* use email client in order to participate in discussions. Thank you for the explanation on how to use a email client. Actually I am the author of one, made in year 2000 (15 years ago) - see desktopfay.com . Regards, Dmitry. That is because you confuse ... and using of your mail client. So it's up to every user to know how to use it's own mail client Ok, that was because the list is for wider audience and I (maybe wrongly) supposed it needs explanation to differentiate if someone wonders. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 01/25/2015 09:39 AM, Private wrote: On 25/01/2015 14:04, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote: It would certainly help non development traffic and open the community. Certainly? How? -- Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682) After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
The current forum spreads out its presence to my email inbox, instead of staying at openindiana.org site. This is undesirable (at least for me), and forces me to subscribe every time when I want to contribute to the forum, and unsubscribe immediately after that. Just want to keep my email and this forum separate. Dmitry. What is it that you think is broken? ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 25/01/2015 14:04, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote: It would certainly help non development traffic and open the community. It would be an advantage if opensource software could be used such as https://www.phpbb.com/downloads Robert Jones On 25/01/2015 14:04, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote: What is it that you think is broken? On Sun, 1/25/15, Mark Stephens mstephens1...@gmail.com wrote: Subject: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation To: openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org Date: Sunday, January 25, 2015, 5:09 AM I would like to know will this project eventually get a discussion forum vs using mailing list. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
What is it that you think is broken? On Sun, 1/25/15, Mark Stephens mstephens1...@gmail.com wrote: Subject: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation To: openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org Date: Sunday, January 25, 2015, 5:09 AM I would like to know will this project eventually get a discussion forum vs using mailing list. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
I asked what was broken, so the text below misquotes me entirely. I do not think anything needs to be changed. I think the OI/Illumos lists work pretty well. We seem to have weathered the DMARC issue w/o too much trouble. The archive provides a good interface for older discussions. I'm also of the opinion that part of the price of getting help from others is providing it when the opportunity presents itself. Gratuitous graphics, how many posts you've made and how long you've been a member are not things I care about. If your mailbox gets too full, get an email address just for your mailing list subscriptions. If you want change for the sake of change, this is probably not the right group. If anything we're probably a bit too reluctant to change. We actually want that shell script someone wrote 20 years ago to still work w/o anyone having to maintain it. Have Fun! Reg On Sun, 1/25/15, Glenn Holmer shad...@lyonlabs.org wrote: Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org Date: Sunday, January 25, 2015, 10:07 AM On 01/25/2015 09:39 AM, Private wrote: On 25/01/2015 14:04, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote: It would certainly help non development traffic and open the community. Certainly? How? -- Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682) After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
Bob, You are truly a master wordsmith! :) Thank you for your post. Jerry On 01/25/15 03:15 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: On Sun, 25 Jan 2015, Jerry Kemp wrote: +1 for staying as a mailing list. forum's do not lend themselves to local archiving of (personal) valuable data and shared ideas. What about the forums at http://www.opensolaris.org/;? Did these not contribute to archiving for posterity? Bob ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
+1 On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org wrote: I asked what was broken, so the text below misquotes me entirely. I do not think anything needs to be changed. I think the OI/Illumos lists work pretty well. We seem to have weathered the DMARC issue w/o too much trouble. The archive provides a good interface for older discussions. I'm also of the opinion that part of the price of getting help from others is providing it when the opportunity presents itself. Gratuitous graphics, how many posts you've made and how long you've been a member are not things I care about. If your mailbox gets too full, get an email address just for your mailing list subscriptions. If you want change for the sake of change, this is probably not the right group. If anything we're probably a bit too reluctant to change. We actually want that shell script someone wrote 20 years ago to still work w/o anyone having to maintain it. Have Fun! Reg On Sun, 1/25/15, Glenn Holmer shad...@lyonlabs.org wrote: Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org Date: Sunday, January 25, 2015, 10:07 AM On 01/25/2015 09:39 AM, Private wrote: On 25/01/2015 14:04, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote: It would certainly help non development traffic and open the community. Certainly? How? -- Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682) After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
+1 for staying as a mailing list. forum's do not lend themselves to local archiving of (personal) valuable data and shared ideas. Jerry On 01/25/15 03:07 PM, Glenn Holmer wrote: On 01/25/2015 11:41 AM, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote: I asked what was broken, so the text below misquotes me entirely. The message I was responding to quoted incorrectly: http://openindiana.org/pipermail/openindiana-discuss/2015-January/017043.html I do not think anything needs to be changed. I am in agreement with you. A forum is not necessary. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On Sun, 25 Jan 2015, Jerry Kemp wrote: +1 for staying as a mailing list. forum's do not lend themselves to local archiving of (personal) valuable data and shared ideas. What about the forums at http://www.opensolaris.org/;? Did these not contribute to archiving for posterity? Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On 01/25/2015 11:41 AM, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote: I asked what was broken, so the text below misquotes me entirely. The message I was responding to quoted incorrectly: http://openindiana.org/pipermail/openindiana-discuss/2015-January/017043.html I do not think anything needs to be changed. I am in agreement with you. A forum is not necessary. -- Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682) After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] forum creation
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 4:15 PM, Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us wrote: What about the forums at http://www.opensolaris.org/;? Did these not contribute to archiving for posterity? haha. ouch, that zinger stung! ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
