Re: [Opensim-dev] [linux-elitists] Mono considered harmful

2009-04-05 Thread Eugen Leitl
- Forwarded message from Rick Moen  -

From: Rick Moen 
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 08:44:08 -0700
To: linux-eliti...@zgp.org
Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] [Opensim-dev] Mono considered harmful
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403

Quoting Eugen Leitl (eu...@leitl.org):

> IANAL, does below explanation by Adam hold water?

You don't have to be a lawyer to know that it's rubbish on two separate
grounds.

Yes, C# is an ECMA standard.  However: 

(1) It doesn't follow that ECMA International has any power to "forbid"
patent holders from suing anyone over anything, let alone patent
infringement.  I mean, think about it:  Does Adam think ECMA
International is Microsoft Corporation's daddy?  That it owns 51% of the
issued and outstanding common stock?  At worst, it might be possible for
ECMA International to be very deeply disappointed in Microsoft's
behaviour at some future point, decertify particular things, and
otherwise carry out mild actions that _are_ within its power.

More important:

(2) In any event, ECMA International does not even _profess_ to
disapprove of suing patent infringers.  It merely has a "Code of Conduct
in Patent Matters"
(http://www.ecma-international.org/memento/codeofconduct.htm), setting
ECMA policy that the group will approve standards only if it has written
assurances from applicant that applicable patents will be licensed on a
"reasonable, non-discriminatory basis".  (That term of art is typically
referred to as RAND terms.)  

Has Adam Frisby completely missed the last decade of standards warfare?
The proprietary camp has repeatedly attempted to get the World Wide Web
Consortium to start accepting "RAND" patent licensing, instead of
requiring that applicants certify that covering patents will be
_royalty-free_.  This arm-twisting failed, because of diligent focussing
of attention from open source people.  W3C has stuck to its guns and
insistend on royalty-free patent licensing.

To spell it out:  "Reasonable" means obligatory patent royalty payments.
Which means no open source implementations of those standards.

And that is one reason why ECMA standards can be (and often are) issued
on terms hostile to open source, whereas W3C standards are reliable and
open-source-friendly.

Sheesh.

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Re: [Opensim-dev] Mono considered harmful

2009-04-03 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 10:13:47AM -0500, Mike Dickson wrote:

> won't go into details) the worst case scenarios is that you'd not be
> able to run it on Linux using Mono. If you're inclined towards floating

So you're saying the worst case (which is I think is arguably 
likely, actually) is that OpenSim only runs on proprietary systems. 
OpenSim becoming Windows-only, eventually.

> anxiety then this is something to worry about. Otherwise from an OpenSim
> perspective there are bigger fish to fry. Like getting to 1.0...

Becoming ghetto and then long-term insignificant is less important
than getting 1.0 out of the door. Mmmh, okay. If you say so.

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[Opensim-dev] Mono considered harmful

2009-04-03 Thread Eugen Leitl

What was the original reason for the decision to pick .Net/C#/Mono?

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090401152339514

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Re: [Opensim-dev] [croquet-dev] mmox-oriented [virtual world interop] meetings on Tuesday

2009-03-03 Thread Eugen Leitl
- Forwarded message from "Mark P. McCahill"  -

From: "Mark P. McCahill" 
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 11:52:42 -0500
To: croquet-...@duke.edu, Lawson English 
Subject: Re: [croquet-dev] mmox-oriented [virtual world interop] meetings on 
Tuesday
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3)
Reply-To: croquet-...@duke.edu, "Mark P. McCahill" 

I've been following the IETF mmox effort for a bit and there is a  
fairly active mailing list. There are several proposal in front of the  
group at the moment. One is a wire-level protocol derived from the  
Second Life/Open Grid work: 
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hamrick-llsd-00.txt

I believe another proposal is more appropriate and interesting for the  
Croquet family of technologies: 
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/staging/draft-ietf-mmox-problem-00.txt

If you want to participating in the mailing list:
subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmox
archives:  http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mmox/current/maillist.html

There is also an IETF mmox jabber conference you can join with a  
jabber client - including the one in Croquet/Cobalt :-). This jabber  
chat will be active during the actual IETF meeting, so this is one  
option if you cannot travel to San Francisco for the meeting. I'm  
looking into the feasibility of streaming at least the audio from the  
IETF meeting into Croquet/Cobalt clients here at Duke as a  
demonstration of one sort of interoperability and remote participation  
in the meeting.

jabber groupchat: m...@jabber.ietf.org
archives: http://jabber.ietf.org/logs/mmox/


On Mar 3, 2009, at 10:08 AM, Lawson English wrote:

>Tuesday, March 3, 9:30 AM Pacific Coast Time, we are having another  
>mmox-oriented meeting at ThornBridgeTown Island in Second Life. IM  
>Saijanai Kuhn, Tree Kyomoon or Zha Ewry in-world for the group  
>invite to get to the meeting place.
>
>http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/156/129/25
>
>One topic of discussion will be: 
>http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/staging/draft-ietf-mmox-problem-00.txt
>
>
>This will be followed by the monthly meeting at Zero Linden's office  
>hours at 1PM Tuesday, Pacific Coast Time. Two hours are blocked out  
>for this meeting.
>
>http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grasmere/171/112/27
>
>
>
>A reminder: the IETF meeting will be March 24th, 3:20-5PM Pacific  
>Coast Time in San Francisco.
>
>We plan on having [hope to have] 2-way media and chat streaming  
>between the live meeting and meetings in Second Life, OpenSim, Qwaq/ 
>Croquet, Forterra as well as a Metanomics style interactive webpage  
>and irc/jabber groups linked to the local chat of each world/sim.
>
>
>See you there.
>
>
>Lawson
>Saijanai Kuhn in Second Life
>Informal mmox links page: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/MMOX

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[Opensim-dev] [croquet-dev] mmox-oriented [virtual world interop] meetings on Tuesday

2009-03-03 Thread Eugen Leitl
- Forwarded message from Lawson English  -

From: Lawson English 
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 08:08:12 -0700
To: croquet-...@duke.edu
Subject: [croquet-dev] mmox-oriented [virtual world interop] meetings on Tuesday
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031)
Reply-To: croquet-...@duke.edu, Lawson English 

Tuesday, March 3, 9:30 AM Pacific Coast Time, we are having another 
mmox-oriented meeting at ThornBridgeTown Island in Second Life. IM 
Saijanai Kuhn, Tree Kyomoon or Zha Ewry in-world for the group invite to 
get to the meeting place.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/156/129/25

One topic of discussion will be: 
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/staging/draft-ietf-mmox-problem-00.txt


This will be followed by the monthly meeting at Zero Linden's office 
hours at 1PM Tuesday, Pacific Coast Time. Two hours are blocked out for 
this meeting.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grasmere/171/112/27



A reminder: the IETF meeting will be March 24th, 3:20-5PM Pacific Coast 
Time in San Francisco.

We plan on having [hope to have] 2-way media and chat streaming between 
the live meeting and meetings in Second Life, OpenSim, Qwaq/Croquet, 
Forterra as well as a Metanomics style interactive webpage and 
irc/jabber groups linked to the local chat of each world/sim.


See you there.


Lawson
Saijanai Kuhn in Second Life
Informal mmox links page: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/MMOX

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Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage

2009-02-20 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 05:30:57AM -0500, Frisby, Adam wrote: 

> Client libraries and things are usually needed.

As far as I know GPL viral clause doesn't apply if you just use the API, or
don't link the code statically.

Notice that I'm not wedded to Tahoe. It's just this is the only system with
the required capabilities I'm aware of.

http://lwn.net/Articles/280483/

The Tahoe secure filesystem

By Jake Edge

April 30, 2008

The Tahoe filesystem is designed as a secure, distributed filesystem that is
available as free software. Tahoe is also designed for fault tolerance so
that data remains available even in the presence of missing or malicious
peers. In March, the project released a 1.0 version which makes this a good
time to take a peek.

The basics of Tahoe are somewhat similar to GNUnet or Freenet in that the
data is encrypted and spread around to multiple nodes in the network. Unlike
those, though, Tahoe does not seek to provide anonymity. The nodes making up
a Tahoe filesystem are called a "grid". Grids consist of some number of peers
acting as storage server nodes along with an "introducer" that knows all of
the other nodes and is the central point of contact for the grid.

Files are stored in Tahoe by first being encrypted on the local machine using
AES. They are then broken into "shares", ten by default, that are distributed
to different servers in the grid. Before that happens, though, the encrypted
file is encoded in such a way that the whole file can be recovered even if
only a subset of the shares can be retrieved.

This encoding, known as "erasure coding", is the key to the fault-tolerance
of the Tahoe system. By default, Tahoe encodes the shares such that
retrieving three of the ten is sufficient to recover the entire file. It also
increases the size of the file by the expected 10/3 ratio.

The suggested use case for Tahoe is a "friendnet" where some group of friends
share their storage with each other in a way that reduces or eliminates the
need for backups. Tahoe also has ways to share data in either read-only or
read-write (immutable or mutable in Tahoe-speak) modes. Tahoe is used as a
commercial backup system by Allmydata, sponsor of the Tahoe project.

Tahoe is designed to be secure, which means that it protects the integrity
and confidentiality of the data stored in it. SHA-256 is used extensively to
ensure consistency of the plaintext, ciphertext, and shares. Files stored in
the system are identified by long identifiers called capabilities, that look
something like:

URI:CHK:yeyur23dw7cg3mxmsl2kiqvtt4:sdtrgczwtntzyfg2uapbfytxvyqsn45j4jpgrhcey7ebzpaoznya:3:10:107833344

For mutable files, there are two versions of the capability, one that allows
only reading, while the other allows writing as well. Anyone who does not
have a capability string for a particular file cannot access it at all.

Multiple user interfaces are available for Tahoe, including a web interface,
a command-line interface, a FUSE extension and a web API. Tahoe is written in
Python, using some C extensions for efficiency. It uses the Twisted framework
for event handling, pycryptopp (a Python interface to the Crypto++ library)
for its encryption needs, and zfec for the erasure coding. All of the Tahoe
code is available under the GPL.

Installing Tahoe was fairly straightforward—there were a few hiccups which
have since been resolved—using the installation guide. Joining the test grid
was as easy as putting an introducer identifier into a file and starting
Tahoe from the command line. In some basic testing, it seems to work quite
well, overall, though it did not seem to use available bandwidth as
efficiently as it might.

This brief overview only scratches the surface of the information available
about Tahoe; there is much more on the documentation page. For anyone
interested in distributed, secure, and/or fault-tolerant filesystems, Tahoe
is definitely worth a look. 
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Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage

2009-02-20 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 05:32:00AM -0500, Frisby, Adam wrote:
> It's for use in a trusted environment only. 

How much can you trust 1 random strangers
who can run OpenSim servers in a hypergrid and do?

> You can't have an asset cluster in an untrusted environment 
> without replicating every asset across every host -- otherwise 

I recommend you look at what Tahoe does.

> someone could setup, run for a while, then deliberately corrupt 

I really recommend you look at what Tahoe does.

> the hard disk. Given enough machines doing this, you could permanently wipe 
> assets.

It is not realistic to assume that most hosts are malicious.

Notice that this is the time where bad design decisions could
wind up cemented for good.
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Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage

2009-02-20 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 09:44:32PM -0500, Frisby, Adam wrote:
> I'm using Project-Voldemort(.com) for the new osgrid server - it can be cross 
> compiled into C# via IKVM and works just fine. It's newish, but it's got some 
> very nice promising features and it's pretty damn fast.

How well does it handle deliberate data corruption (aka malicious nodes)?
 
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Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage

2009-02-20 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 02:35:47PM -0800, Kyle Hamilton wrote:
> Aside from the fact that it's GPL?

How is that relevant if you're not linking to it?

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Re: [Opensim-dev] oddities with asset storage

2009-02-19 Thread Eugen Leitl
STALLATION

Tahoe works on Linux, Mac OS X, Windows, Cygwin, and Solaris, and
probably most other systems.  Start with "docs/install.html" [9].


HACKING AND COMMUNITY

Please join us on the mailing list [10].  Patches that extend and
improve Tahoe are gratefully accepted -- the RoadMap page [11] shows
the next improvements that we plan to make and CREDITS [12] lists the
names of people who've contributed to the project.  The wiki Dev page
[13] contains resources for hackers.


SPONSORSHIP

Tahoe is sponsored by Allmydata, Inc. [14], a provider of commercial
backup services.  Allmydata, Inc. created the Tahoe project, and
contributes hardware, software, ideas, bug reports, suggestions,
demands, and money (employing several Tahoe hackers and instructing
them to spend part of their work time on this Free Software project).
Also they award customized t-shirts to hackers who find security flaws
in Tahoe (see http://hacktahoe.org ).  Thank you to Allmydata, Inc. for
their generous and public-spirited support.


Zooko Wilcox-O'Hearn
on behalf of the allmydata.org team

Special acknowledgment goes to Brian Warner, whose superb engineering
skills and dedication are primarily responsible for the Tahoe
implementation, and largely responsible for the Tahoe design as well,
not to mention most of the docs and many other things besides.

February 13, 2009
Boulder, Colorado, USA

[1] http://allmydata.org/trac/tahoe/browser/relnotes.txt?rev=2789
[2] http://allmydata.org/trac/tahoe/browser/NEWS
[3] http://allmydata.org/trac/tahoe/browser/docs/known_issues.txt
[4] http://allmydata.org/trac/tahoe/wiki/RelatedProjects
[5] http://allmydata.org/trac/tahoe/wiki/Dev
[6] http://allmydata.org/trac/tahoe/wiki/UseCases
[7] http://allmydata.org/trac/tahoe/browser/COPYING.GPL
[8] http://allmydata.org/source/tahoe/trunk/COPYING.TGPPL.html
[9] http://allmydata.org/source/tahoe/trunk/docs/install.html
[10] http://allmydata.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tahoe-dev
[11] http://allmydata.org/trac/tahoe/roadmap
[12] http://allmydata.org/trac/tahoe/browser/CREDITS?rev=2677
[13] http://allmydata.org/trac/tahoe/wiki/Dev
[14] http://allmydata.com

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Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim Hardware Requeriments

2009-02-18 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 05:23:04AM +, Melanie wrote:
> You can't currently hard-limit anything. We have seen 20+ avatars in 
> regions with 6000+ prims on less memory than that.

Was that Mono, or .Net?

> Generally, avatars take more memory than prims.

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Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim Hardware Requeriments

2009-02-18 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 03:46:58AM +, Melanie wrote:
> As a rule of thumb, 256MB per sim is an operative minimum, but mono 
> really likes to see 1GB per region to be happy.
> 
> Some people use VPS to run OpenSim in, I don't recommend that,though.

Depends on the virtualization technology. Linux VServer seems to do fine.

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[Opensim-dev] [croquet-dev] meeting today for arranging media links for MMOX BOF meeting

2009-02-18 Thread Eugen Leitl
- Forwarded message from Lawson English  -

From: Lawson English 
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:08:59 -0700
To: croquet-...@duke.edu
CC: "Meadhbh S. Hamrick (Infinity Linden)" ,
David W Levine 
Subject: [croquet-dev] meeting today for arranging media links for MMOX BOF 
meeting
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031)
Reply-To: croquet-...@duke.edu, Lawson English 

Hey all, sorry this is being sent out so late but we arranged the time 
at the last second.


Background:

mmox is a proposed working group for the IETF that will have a Birds of 
Feather meeting in March at the IETF 74 meeting.

mmox stands for "Massively Multiplayer Online X" [stuff] and is meant to 
be a general working group to design interoperability protocols between 
various virtual worlds.

A meeting will be held today (Wed, Feb 18, 2009) at 4PM Pacific Coast 
Time in a Second Life venue to discuss the details/requirements for 
setting up 2-way video streaming of the March BOF meeting to/from 
participating virtual worlds.


Media stream meeting:

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Levenhall/89/205/105

The info about MMOX is found here:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/MMOX

Hope someone can attend and sorry for the last second notification. The 
BOF meeting is still in the BOF planning stages... ;-)



Lawson English (Saijanai Kuhn in Second Life)

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Re: [Opensim-dev] [Opensim-users] hypergrid teleports andnon-hypergrid simulators

2009-02-03 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Mon, Feb 02, 2009 at 05:12:38PM -0800, Brianna wrote:
> 
>What we plan to do at our next Regatta is use an Amazon cloud for the
>event and HG to it. We ran yesterday's regatta on an EC2 instance and

How much do you expect to pay to instantiate a single-event in EC?

>it had excellent xscript performance. This will further accomplish
>total removal of neighbor region laggy influences and superior load
>handling.

What is the network neighbourhood for two or more instances?
I understand EC2 only has good network topology for US clients,
though this might have changed meanwhile.
 
>It has been reported that LL's Blake Sea opening event, yesterday, was
>a technical disaster and our OSG vastly out performed them... ty dev
>team

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Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator

2009-01-26 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 11:21:15AM +0100, Dirk Krause wrote:

> So what I think what would be valuable is a 'lightweight agent'
> construction. This would be an AV that basically can't do much except

I typically use a 6DOF-controlled flycam to circumvent issues
with clunky avatars. It would be nice to highlight the flycam
position with a minimal marker, like a point of light with
an optional avatar label or something.

How is the sound broadcast implemented in the server?

> listening/watching/reading, she especially couldn't rezz anything. It's
> a bit like the 'spectator mode' in some games. This way there could be
> big numbers of watchers, thus giving more people the opportunity to
> attend a meeting - practically increasing the number of virtual beings
> in a region, without bringing the region down.
> 
> I could think of at least two ways to acchieve this:
> - a camera woman AV that 'lightweight agents' could hook up to, using
> the client only as a viewer; this would be a bit like a video stream,
> just with less impact, since the rendering is still done in the viewer.
> - a stripped down agent that got rid of everything that causes too much
> stress on either network or server. Unfortunately I don't know how to do
> that because I don't know the OpenSim construction enough. These
> lightweight agents could have a representation (a sphere?) while they
> are online, a distinct place and the ability to look around and maybe
> move slowly.
> 
> By having something like that we could get rid of the 'theres just a
> small number of AVs in every region' dilemma.

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[Opensim-dev] new Mono

2009-01-21 Thread Eugen Leitl

http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2009/Jan-20-1.html

...


Mono's new engine generates much better code than the version found in Mono 2.0.

Speed: The engine will mostly benefit computationally intensive code, usually 
between 10% and 30% performance increase, with some cases going up as high as 
being 50% faster.

Code size: the new engine generates slimmer code, typically 12% to 20% smaller 
code generated.

Check out some of the benchmark results. 

...

SIMD

Using SIMD for accelerating certain floating point operations had been in the 
back of our minds for a while. We looked into implementing that in our old 
engine, but that turned out to be very difficult.

With the new engine, Rodrigo was able to put together a prototype in a weekend 
(the legend goes that Rodrigo's wife was busy that weekend).

This prototype was later turned into Mono.SIMD an API for accelerating vector 
operations.

Mono 2.2 is the first release to officially support and distribute it. To learn 
more about Mono.SIMD support, you can see this blog entry. 

...

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Eugen* Leitl http://leitl.org";>leitl http://leitl.org
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Re: [Opensim-dev] Technical assessment of Cable Beach asset server

2009-01-15 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 02:10:13PM +0900, Mike Mazur wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I'd like to present my analysis of the Cable Beach[1] design & code,
> with the aim to eventually use it as the official OpenSim asset and
> inventory server.

As an aside from the peanut gallery, it would be nice to have asset
storage in a distributed cryptographic filestore like Tahoe 
http://allmydata.org/~warner/pycon-tahoe.html
 
-- 
Eugen* Leitl http://leitl.org";>leitl http://leitl.org
__
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
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