Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator
Mostly, the road block to working to solve this issue is actually
getting many people on a region at once consistantly.It's hard to
coordinate tons of people on in a testing scenario :)
Anyway, yes, noted!
Teravus
On 1/26/09, Dirk Krause dirk.kra...@pixelpark.com wrote:
One problem with SL that is addressed quite often is the limited number
of AVs that one region can hold ('the number of people on an island').
This comes up in the 'big number' discussion and especially in nearly
every meeting scenario that is of high interest to the community.
Somehow this is also influencing the 'relevance of SL' (and thus
OpenSim)technology and grid technology in general ('I can have hundreds
of people in a Habbo place but only around 50 in SL')
I really want to dodge the official 'big numbers' discussion by stating
what would happen when there would be hundreds of people in one IRC
channel and all of them were writing at the same time. But I do believe
that one viable 'big number' scenario is a podium discussion where a
couple of persons are discussing and most of the other people are
listening/watching/reading in general. Or a sports event of sorts, with
- well :-) - 22 people acting and many more watching.
So what I think what would be valuable is a 'lightweight agent'
construction. This would be an AV that basically can't do much except
listening/watching/reading, she especially couldn't rezz anything. It's
a bit like the 'spectator mode' in some games. This way there could be
big numbers of watchers, thus giving more people the opportunity to
attend a meeting - practically increasing the number of virtual beings
in a region, without bringing the region down.
I could think of at least two ways to acchieve this:
- a camera woman AV that 'lightweight agents' could hook up to, using
the client only as a viewer; this would be a bit like a video stream,
just with less impact, since the rendering is still done in the viewer.
- a stripped down agent that got rid of everything that causes too much
stress on either network or server. Unfortunately I don't know how to do
that because I don't know the OpenSim construction enough. These
lightweight agents could have a representation (a sphere?) while they
are online, a distinct place and the ability to look around and maybe
move slowly.
By having something like that we could get rid of the 'theres just a
small number of AVs in every region' dilemma.
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Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator
Well, one solution to getting a lot of people on at one time would be a
heavy weight bot that loaded a system the same as a client does. It
would need to be based on a viewer code base, but be light enough on the
client side to run hundreds of connections/accounts.
Teravus Ovares wrote:
Mostly, the road block to working to solve this issue is actually
getting many people on a region at once consistantly.It's hard to
coordinate tons of people on in a testing scenario :)
Anyway, yes, noted!
Teravus
On 1/26/09, Dirk Krause dirk.kra...@pixelpark.com wrote:
One problem with SL that is addressed quite often is the limited number
of AVs that one region can hold ('the number of people on an island').
This comes up in the 'big number' discussion and especially in nearly
every meeting scenario that is of high interest to the community.
Somehow this is also influencing the 'relevance of SL' (and thus
OpenSim)technology and grid technology in general ('I can have hundreds
of people in a Habbo place but only around 50 in SL')
I really want to dodge the official 'big numbers' discussion by stating
what would happen when there would be hundreds of people in one IRC
channel and all of them were writing at the same time. But I do believe
that one viable 'big number' scenario is a podium discussion where a
couple of persons are discussing and most of the other people are
listening/watching/reading in general. Or a sports event of sorts, with
- well :-) - 22 people acting and many more watching.
So what I think what would be valuable is a 'lightweight agent'
construction. This would be an AV that basically can't do much except
listening/watching/reading, she especially couldn't rezz anything. It's
a bit like the 'spectator mode' in some games. This way there could be
big numbers of watchers, thus giving more people the opportunity to
attend a meeting - practically increasing the number of virtual beings
in a region, without bringing the region down.
I could think of at least two ways to acchieve this:
- a camera woman AV that 'lightweight agents' could hook up to, using
the client only as a viewer; this would be a bit like a video stream,
just with less impact, since the rendering is still done in the viewer.
- a stripped down agent that got rid of everything that causes too much
stress on either network or server. Unfortunately I don't know how to do
that because I don't know the OpenSim construction enough. These
lightweight agents could have a representation (a sphere?) while they
are online, a distinct place and the ability to look around and maybe
move slowly.
By having something like that we could get rid of the 'theres just a
small number of AVs in every region' dilemma.
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6:13 PM
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Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator
the only bad thing about bringing up the Pcampbot login test was at the time pcampbot was not pulling assets down from the scene locally to itself, so realisticly those 1000 pcampbots were probably generating about the same amount of login traffic that about 10-20 avatars would have been likely. The only real solution to this problem will likely be load balancing and many servers working together to break the 100 avatar limit, the chances that 1 server will be serving 1000 avatars is completely impossible, i honestly dont think we can ever optimize it enough for even the fastest servers to deal in 1000 avatars, though i do hope we can atleast get to around 100 or more. One test I have done recently that throws a monkey wrench into my thinking about this, my Region (OKC) Ka which is about 12000 prims and running just over 1000 scripts, when trying to log into the region with just 1 avatar that is wearing a 1700 prim avatar that uses every single attach point, i am 100% unable to log into the sim ever. One other thing to note is that my avatar has between 11k-12k inventory items and basiclly trying to access any simulator with more than about 1000 variously textured prims in the ballpark of about 500+ textures or so (even afer running the predecode-j2k) i am unable to log in at all. So again if 1 avatar cant access the sim, i personallly dont see 1000 avatars entering a simulator anytime soon if at all ever, atleast like I said in the 1 server world, this is probably going to require some major hardware/pipes to achieve. Neb ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator
Minor mistake in my last posting, it should have read (8000 variously texture prims in the ballpark of about 500+ texures or so). and since i am recommenting again, i think its important that when we talk about 1000 users, we are not talking about 1000 ruths with zero inventory and not chatting and doing real world things, pcampbot is a horrible representaion of 1000 like i said before every 1000 pcampbots is probably not even equal to 20 real world avatars actually doing something with the simulator. Neb On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 9:55 AM, Nebadon Izumi nebadon2...@gmail.comwrote: the only bad thing about bringing up the Pcampbot login test was at the time pcampbot was not pulling assets down from the scene locally to itself, so realisticly those 1000 pcampbots were probably generating about the same amount of login traffic that about 10-20 avatars would have been likely. The only real solution to this problem will likely be load balancing and many servers working together to break the 100 avatar limit, the chances that 1 server will be serving 1000 avatars is completely impossible, i honestly dont think we can ever optimize it enough for even the fastest servers to deal in 1000 avatars, though i do hope we can atleast get to around 100 or more. One test I have done recently that throws a monkey wrench into my thinking about this, my Region (OKC) Ka which is about 12000 prims and running just over 1000 scripts, when trying to log into the region with just 1 avatar that is wearing a 1700 prim avatar that uses every single attach point, i am 100% unable to log into the sim ever. One other thing to note is that my avatar has between 11k-12k inventory items and basiclly trying to access any simulator with more than about 1000 variously textured prims in the ballpark of about 500+ textures or so (even afer running the predecode-j2k) i am unable to log in at all. So again if 1 avatar cant access the sim, i personallly dont see 1000 avatars entering a simulator anytime soon if at all ever, atleast like I said in the 1 server world, this is probably going to require some major hardware/pipes to achieve. Neb ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator
If a 1700 prim avatar using every attach point is not a mildly extreme case I don't know what is! J The same rules apply to OpenSim as it does on SL - performance and headcount depends on the crowd you get in for an event and the design of the sim itself. Build a sim with many thousands of highly textured prims and complex scripts and you might as well just cut down your ram, step down your processor, and accept defeat. Code optimisation is nothing without a little care and attention on the part of the sim designer to make the experience as smooth as possible for attendees. Maybe there's a requirement / option to have an event mode where you block all attachments and deny access to inventory items to maximise the number of visitors if you really want to get 1000 users in a confined space, and consider using some texture simplification on the regions in question, configurable for a region server at startup? From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Nebadon Izumi Sent: 26 January 2009 17:01 To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator Minor mistake in my last posting, it should have read (8000 variously texture prims in the ballpark of about 500+ texures or so). and since i am recommenting again, i think its important that when we talk about 1000 users, we are not talking about 1000 ruths with zero inventory and not chatting and doing real world things, pcampbot is a horrible representaion of 1000 like i said before every 1000 pcampbots is probably not even equal to 20 real world avatars actually doing something with the simulator. Neb On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 9:55 AM, Nebadon Izumi nebadon2...@gmail.com wrote: the only bad thing about bringing up the Pcampbot login test was at the time pcampbot was not pulling assets down from the scene locally to itself, so realisticly those 1000 pcampbots were probably generating about the same amount of login traffic that about 10-20 avatars would have been likely. The only real solution to this problem will likely be load balancing and many servers working together to break the 100 avatar limit, the chances that 1 server will be serving 1000 avatars is completely impossible, i honestly dont think we can ever optimize it enough for even the fastest servers to deal in 1000 avatars, though i do hope we can atleast get to around 100 or more. One test I have done recently that throws a monkey wrench into my thinking about this, my Region (OKC) Ka which is about 12000 prims and running just over 1000 scripts, when trying to log into the region with just 1 avatar that is wearing a 1700 prim avatar that uses every single attach point, i am 100% unable to log into the sim ever. One other thing to note is that my avatar has between 11k-12k inventory items and basiclly trying to access any simulator with more than about 1000 variously textured prims in the ballpark of about 500+ textures or so (even afer running the predecode-j2k) i am unable to log in at all. So again if 1 avatar cant access the sim, i personallly dont see 1000 avatars entering a simulator anytime soon if at all ever, atleast like I said in the 1 server world, this is probably going to require some major hardware/pipes to achieve. Neb No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1909 - Release Date: 25/01/2009 18:13 ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator
well i think your sorta missing the point, say i did reduce my avatar login footprint by 10, that would only mean that if 10 people simulatanously logged in, which if your talking about 1000 avatars at once is going to happen, it means that you will get the same results if 10 avatars hit at once, so honestly even if we reduce the footprint by 90% we still have the same problem on logins, the biggest problem i see is mass login, when your talking about getting 1000 avatars into a region for a single event, especially if it crashes you could be potentially looking at over 100 avatars trying to log in at the same time, how do we handle this?? if your talking about 1000 avatars you need to talk about exteme usage case, not just fractional usage. Neb On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Chris Hart ch...@codetorque.co.uk wrote: If a 1700 prim avatar using every attach point is not a mildly extreme case I don't know what is! J The same rules apply to OpenSim as it does on SL – performance and headcount depends on the crowd you get in for an event and the design of the sim itself. Build a sim with many thousands of highly textured prims and complex scripts and you might as well just cut down your ram, step down your processor, and accept defeat. Code optimisation is nothing without a little care and attention on the part of the sim designer to make the experience as smooth as possible for attendees. Maybe there's a requirement / option to have an event mode where you block all attachments and deny access to inventory items to maximise the number of visitors if you really want to get 1000 users in a confined space, and consider using some texture simplification on the regions in question, configurable for a region server at startup? *From:* opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Nebadon Izumi *Sent:* 26 January 2009 17:01 *To:* opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator Minor mistake in my last posting, it should have read (8000 variously texture prims in the ballpark of about 500+ texures or so). and since i am recommenting again, i think its important that when we talk about 1000 users, we are not talking about 1000 ruths with zero inventory and not chatting and doing real world things, pcampbot is a horrible representaion of 1000 like i said before every 1000 pcampbots is probably not even equal to 20 real world avatars actually doing something with the simulator. Neb On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 9:55 AM, Nebadon Izumi nebadon2...@gmail.com wrote: the only bad thing about bringing up the Pcampbot login test was at the time pcampbot was not pulling assets down from the scene locally to itself, so realisticly those 1000 pcampbots were probably generating about the same amount of login traffic that about 10-20 avatars would have been likely. The only real solution to this problem will likely be load balancing and many servers working together to break the 100 avatar limit, the chances that 1 server will be serving 1000 avatars is completely impossible, i honestly dont think we can ever optimize it enough for even the fastest servers to deal in 1000 avatars, though i do hope we can atleast get to around 100 or more. One test I have done recently that throws a monkey wrench into my thinking about this, my Region (OKC) Ka which is about 12000 prims and running just over 1000 scripts, when trying to log into the region with just 1 avatar that is wearing a 1700 prim avatar that uses every single attach point, i am 100% unable to log into the sim ever. One other thing to note is that my avatar has between 11k-12k inventory items and basiclly trying to access any simulator with more than about 1000 variously textured prims in the ballpark of about 500+ textures or so (even afer running the predecode-j2k) i am unable to log in at all. So again if 1 avatar cant access the sim, i personallly dont see 1000 avatars entering a simulator anytime soon if at all ever, atleast like I said in the 1 server world, this is probably going to require some major hardware/pipes to achieve. Neb No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1909 - Release Date: 25/01/2009 18:13 ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator
Currently, PCampBot downloads all of the textures for each client it connects with. This makes it a better load tester then it was previously. Best Regards Teravus On 1/26/09, Dirk Krause dirk.kra...@pixelpark.com wrote: My original point was exactly the one both of you made – there are two different use cases: 1) the ability to access a full featured avatar with the ability to walk, talk, dress etc - like it is now. I didn't want to touch this first, but when I read Sean Dague analysis (keyword: N^2) from a couple of hours ago, I am not sure if everything is done from a technical architecture side to achieve the best performance. So my point was rather 2) that there is a use case for this 'event mode'. But instead of blocking all attachments and Ruth everyone, I would introduce this mode of what I called a lightweight agent. Being able to create events with a couple of people acting and the majority of people recepting it, could IMHO be a big advantage over the original SL limitation that could really make a difference from a strategic standpoint for OpenSim as a software solution. Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Chris Hart Gesendet: Montag, 26. Januar 2009 18:32 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator I certainly don't see 1000 on a single region as remotely possible under current architecture, not disputing that. I do have to wonder what people consider as being an event suitable for 1000 people in a single region – that's a lot of people in not a lot of space (though thinking in three dimensions might help), but what do you gain from such an event? Chat alone would be almost overwhelming, and with 95% of attendees not knowing how to pan the camera most of them would see nothing but the head of the person infront of them – so I guess if you want to emulate real life, you got it. You're right to push the parameters to the extreme, because in the absence of 1000 friends to test a simultaneous login, we all have to improvise, so if it's a case of loading up as many avatars as possible with all clothing layers made with high-res textures, wearing a thousand prims each, etc. then yes, it's not an entirely unreasonable scale test. From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Nebadon Izumi Sent: 26 January 2009 17:19 To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator well i think your sorta missing the point, say i did reduce my avatar login footprint by 10, that would only mean that if 10 people simulatanously logged in, which if your talking about 1000 avatars at once is going to happen, it means that you will get the same results if 10 avatars hit at once, so honestly even if we reduce the footprint by 90% we still have the same problem on logins, the biggest problem i see is mass login, when your talking about getting 1000 avatars into a region for a single event, especially if it crashes you could be potentially looking at over 100 avatars trying to log in at the same time, how do we handle this?? if your talking about 1000 avatars you need to talk about exteme usage case, not just fractional usage. Neb On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Chris Hart ch...@codetorque.co.uk wrote: If a 1700 prim avatar using every attach point is not a mildly extreme case I don't know what is! ☺ The same rules apply to OpenSim as it does on SL – performance and headcount depends on the crowd you get in for an event and the design of the sim itself. Build a sim with many thousands of highly textured prims and complex scripts and you might as well just cut down your ram, step down your processor, and accept defeat. Code optimisation is nothing without a little care and attention on the part of the sim designer to make the experience as smooth as possible for attendees. Maybe there's a requirement / option to have an event mode where you block all attachments and deny access to inventory items to maximise the number of visitors if you really want to get 1000 users in a confined space, and consider using some texture simplification on the regions in question, configurable for a region server at startup? From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Nebadon Izumi Sent: 26 January 2009 17:01 To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator Minor mistake in my last posting, it should have read (8000 variously texture prims in the ballpark of about 500+ texures or so). and since i am recommenting again, i think its important that when we talk about 1000 users, we are not talking about 1000 ruths with zero inventory and not chatting and doing real
