Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB intervene?
On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 4:33 PM, John Plocher wrote: > On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 6:15 AM, Dave Johnson > wrote: >> This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB intervene? > > While I have not been following this soap opera in excruciating > detail, my reading of the ARC discussions was that the ksh-93 project > to replace existing GNU utilities with ksh-wrapper AST based versions > that were not completely compatible and that would not track future > evolution of the GNU utilities was withdrawn for good architectural > reasons. Since the ARC case was not approved, it follows that repo > putback access for that part of the project would also be withheld - a > standard ON procedural action that applies to everyone: No approved > ARC case, no putback. > > To answer your question: Will the OGB intervene? The constitution > says (note the first sentence): > > > 3.1 Disputes > > It is expected and encouraged that groups will resolve disputes by > themselves according to their documented decision-making procedures. > If a dispute can not be resolved within a group or it spreads between > groups, then the Governing Board may choose to intervene. The Board > will consider disputes on a case-by-case basis and may decline to > intervene. If the Board chooses to intervene, it will resolve the > issue at its absolute discretion with no possibility of appeal. Its > resolution will be binding on all parties. > > > Given this understanding (which may be flawed, but your posts do > nothing to show that it is), this all smells like an overly emotional > early Monday morning troll; I see no reason for the OGB to get > involved. > > -John It appears too few of you all here are regular readers or subscribers of ksh93-integration-discuss. Then read first (last 2 months) before prematurely labeling somebody an evil Monday-morning-troll. %martin ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB intervene?
>On 05-10-10, John Plocher wrote: >On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 6:15 AM, Dave Johnson > wrote: >> This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB intervene? > While I have not been following this soap opera in excruciating > detail John, I looked at it as "some guy" making a fair amount of noise and quoting himself in his arguments. So like I said in an earlier message, I made a cup of coffee and then felt that it wasn't worth looking at. Personally I see the ksh93 shell work as some of the best open source collaboration in modern UNIX(R) history. I fully expect that it will always be around forever as some sort of package set to be installed. Dennis ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB intervene?
On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Dennis Clarke wrote: > >>On 05-10-10, John Plocher wrote: >>On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 6:15 AM, Dave Johnson >> wrote: >>> This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB intervene? > >> While I have not been following this soap opera in excruciating >> detail > > John, I looked at it as "some guy" making a fair amount of noise and quoting > himself in his arguments. So like I said in an earlier message, I made a cup > of coffee and then felt that it wasn't worth looking at. > > Personally I see the ksh93 shell work as some of the best open source > collaboration in modern UNIX(R) history. I fully expect that it will always > be around forever as some sort of package set to be installed. > > Dennis Hi quoted not only himself. Drink more coffee until you notice. Here I help you a bit: -- Forwarded message -- From: John Sonnenschein Date: Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 6:01 PM Subject: Re: Removal of some redundant GNU utilities [PSARC/2009/660 FastTrack timeout 12/10/2009] To: PSARC-ext at sun.com After discussions with the OpenSolaris architect and lead, I withdraw this case. It was premature and will be revised as part of a bigger project to provide Solaris modernization using GNU utilities for /usr/bin. -JohnS ___ opensolaris-arc mailing list opensolaris-arc at opensolaris.org Evidence 2: Repeated deny of repository access. Repeated. The ksh team is merely needed to do bug fixing for ksh until the team can be replaced by Oracle in house resources. -- Forwarded message -- From: John Beck Date: 2010/4/30 Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] 4th code review for next POSIX utility modernisation milestone, ksh93 bug fixes and /usr/bin/xgrep To: ? Cc: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion , John Beck , Venkateshwara.Tv at sun.com, U.V.Ravindra at oracle.com > All put backs related to the POSIX utility modernisation are on *hold* > right now, even the security related bits of /bin/mktemp we fixed. What I said was that conversion of any *new* utilities to ksh93 is on hold. Bug fixes in ksh93, its libraries, and previously converted utilities are all welcome. -- John Sponsor my 100-mile bike ride fund raiser for the American Lung Association http://action.lungusa.org/goto/jbeck -- Forwarded message -- From: John Beck Date: Mon, May 3, 2010 at 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] 4th code review for next POSIX utility modernisation milestone, ksh93 bug fixes and /usr/bin/xgrep To: "I. Szczesniak" Cc: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion , John Beck , , Venkateshwara.Tv at sun.com, U.V.Ravindra at oracle.com I> Why are only *new* utilities on hold? I cannot say at this time. As soon as I have information that I am allowed to share, I will pass that information along. -- John Sponsor my 100-mile bike ride fund raiser for the American Lung Association http://action.lungusa.org/goto/jbeck Dave ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB intervene?
This "proof"-quotes from others came later! And, the fact, that side-by-side there's /usr/gnu/bin and /usr/bin shall indicate, that there's no FURTHER development of Solaris-tools, is ridiculous... Matthias Du (Martin Bochnig) schreibst: > On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Dennis Clarke wrote: > > > >>On 05-10-10, John Plocher wrote: > >>On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 6:15 AM, Dave Johnson > >> wrote: > >>> This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB > >>> intervene? > > > >> While I have not been following this soap opera in excruciating > >> detail > > > > John, I looked at it as "some guy" making a fair amount of noise and > > quoting himself in his arguments. So like I said in an earlier message, I > > made a cup of coffee and then felt that it wasn't worth looking at. > > > > Personally I see the ksh93 shell work as some of the best open source > > collaboration in modern UNIX(R) history. I fully expect that it will always > > be around forever as some sort of package set to be installed. > > > > Dennis > > > > Hi quoted not only himself. > Drink more coffee until you notice. > > Here I help you a bit: > > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: John Sonnenschein > Date: Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 6:01 PM > Subject: Re: Removal of some redundant GNU utilities [PSARC/2009/660 > FastTrack timeout 12/10/2009] > To: PSARC-ext at sun.com > > > After discussions with the OpenSolaris architect and lead, I withdraw > this case. It was premature and will be revised as part of a bigger > project to provide Solaris modernization using GNU utilities for /usr/bin. > > -JohnS > ___ > opensolaris-arc mailing list > opensolaris-arc at opensolaris.org > > > > Evidence 2: > Repeated deny of repository access. Repeated. > The ksh team is merely needed to do bug fixing for ksh until the team > can be replaced by Oracle in house resources. > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: John Beck > Date: 2010/4/30 > Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] 4th code review for next > POSIX utility modernisation milestone, ksh93 bug fixes and > /usr/bin/xgrep > To: ? > Cc: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion > , John Beck > , Venkateshwara.Tv at sun.com, > U.V.Ravindra at oracle.com > > > > All put backs related to the POSIX utility modernisation are on *hold* > > right now, even the security related bits of /bin/mktemp we fixed. > > What I said was that conversion of any *new* utilities to ksh93 is on hold. > Bug fixes in ksh93, its libraries, and previously converted utilities are > all welcome. > > -- John > > Sponsor my 100-mile bike ride fund raiser for the American Lung Association > http://action.lungusa.org/goto/jbeck > > > > > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: John Beck > Date: Mon, May 3, 2010 at 10:30 PM > Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] 4th code review for next > POSIX utility modernisation milestone, ksh93 bug fixes and > /usr/bin/xgrep > To: "I. Szczesniak" > Cc: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion > , John Beck > , , > Venkateshwara.Tv at sun.com, U.V.Ravindra at oracle.com > > > I> Why are only *new* utilities on hold? > > I cannot say at this time. As soon as I have information that I am allowed > to share, I will pass that information along. > > -- John > > Sponsor my 100-mile bike ride fund raiser for the American Lung Association > http://action.lungusa.org/goto/jbeck > > Dave > ___ > opensolaris-discuss mailing list > opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org > -- Matthias Pfützner| mailto:pfu...@germany | Ich glaube nicht, daß ich @work: +49 6103 752-394 | @home: +49 6151 75717 | Frauen je begreifen werde. SunCS, Ampèrestraße 6 | Lichtenbergstraße 73 | 63225 Langen, FRG| 64289 Darmstadt, FRG | Federico Fellini ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB intervene?
On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Dennis Clarke wrote: > >>On 05-10-10, John Plocher wrote: >>On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 6:15 AM, Dave Johnson >> wrote: >>> This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB intervene? > >> While I have not been following this soap opera in excruciating >> detail > > John, I looked at it as "some guy" making a fair amount of noise and quoting > himself in his arguments. So like I said in an earlier message, I made a cup > of coffee and then felt that it wasn't worth looking at. Did you read http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2010-May/056462.html? > > Personally I see the ksh93 shell work as some of the best open source > collaboration in modern UNIX(R) history. I fully expect that it will always > be around forever as some sort of package set to be installed. I agree. Both the ksh93 and the modernisation project it spawned are excellent work and would be of great benefit of Opensolaris. But all that work appears to be fruitless if the intentions of Oracle described in http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2010-May/056462.html will be implemented. Chris -- ^---^ (@)v(@) Chris Pickett |/ IT consultant ===m==m=== pkch...@users.sourceforge.net ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB intervene?
Not to be rude, but can we take this discussion elsewhere? I'm not sure why it was moved onto opensolaris-discuss, as it seems to be properly handled over in ogb-discuss and indiana-discuss, which is where it was originally. Multi-list cross-posting gets to be a bit much. -Erik -- Erik Trimble Java System Support Mailstop: usca22-123 Phone: x17195 Santa Clara, CA Timezone: US/Pacific (GMT-0800) ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB intervene?
> Not to be rude, but can we take this discussion elsewhere? It has become an action item in the OGB meeting which is in progress now. -- Dennis Clarke2010 OpenSolaris Governance Member dcla...@opensolaris.ca <- Email related to the open source Solaris dcla...@blastwave.org <- Email related to open source for Solaris ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB intervene?
On 2010-05-10, at 6:15 AM, Dave Johnson wrote: >> >> Where's your "evidence", troll? > > Here is the evidence: > > Evidence 1: > - Project cooperation with ksh project withdrawn > - GNU commands as replacements are the future > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: John Sonnenschein > Date: Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 6:01 PM > Subject: Re: Removal of some redundant GNU utilities [PSARC/2009/660 > FastTrack timeout 12/10/2009] > To: psarc-...@sun.com > > > After discussions with the OpenSolaris architect and lead, I withdraw > this case. It was premature and will be revised as part of a bigger > project to provide Solaris modernization using GNU utilities for /usr/bin. > > -JohnS > ___ > opensolaris-arc mailing list > opensolaris-...@opensolaris.org I really resent the blatant lying about my case. I just pulled up the actual email to PSARC: I really resent the misrepresentation of my words. I just pulled up the actual email to PSARC and here's the quote, which anyone can verify from the arc-disc...@opensolaris.org archives: """ After discussions with the OpenSolaris architect and lead, I withdraw this case. It was premature and will be considered as part of a bigger project to provide Solaris moderization. -JohnS """ Notice the lack of forward statements with respect to the GNU utilities. You are forging emails for your own political gains and I'm going to have to ask you to stop slandering me and my work *immediately*. It is completely unacceptable behaviour. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB intervene?
John Sonnenschein wrote: > You are forging emails for your own political gains and I'm going to have to > ask you to stop slandering me and my work *immediately*. It is completely > unacceptable behaviour. Given Mr. Johnson's previous posts about Opera dropping support to avoid huge Oracle fees [1], which the Opera developers have publicly refuted [2], I have to wonder if the OGB shouldn't instead be taking action to remove a disruptive, lying troll from the community. [1] http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2010-April/056232.html [2] http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2010-May/056475.html -- -Alan Coopersmith-alan.coopersm...@oracle.com Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB intervene?
> John Sonnenschein wrote: >> You are forging emails for your own political gains and I'm going to >> have to ask you to stop slandering me and my work *immediately*. It is >> completely unacceptable behaviour. > > Given Mr. Johnson's previous posts about Opera dropping support to > avoid huge Oracle fees [1], which the Opera developers have publicly > refuted [2], I have to wonder if the OGB shouldn't instead be taking > action to remove a disruptive, lying troll from the community. > > [1] > http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2010-April/056232.html > [2] > http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2010-May/056475.html That was the second thing that crossed my mind. I can't talk about the first thing. Not here anyways. -- Dennis ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB intervene?
Alan Coopersmith wrote: > John Sonnenschein wrote: > > You are forging emails for your own political gains and I'm going to have > > to ask you to stop slandering me and my work *immediately*. It is > > completely unacceptable behaviour. > > Given Mr. Johnson's previous posts about Opera dropping support to > avoid huge Oracle fees [1], which the Opera developers have publicly > refuted [2], I have to wonder if the OGB shouldn't instead be taking > action to remove a disruptive, lying troll from the community. We defiitely need to discuss this on the next meeting. > [1] > http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2010-April/056232.html > [2] > http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2010-May/056475.html Jörg -- EMail:jo...@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin j...@cs.tu-berlin.de(uni) joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB intervene?
> Alan Coopersmith wrote: > >> John Sonnenschein wrote: >> > You are forging emails for your own political gains and I'm going to >> have to ask you to stop slandering me and my work *immediately*. It is >> completely unacceptable behaviour. >> >> Given Mr. Johnson's previous posts about Opera dropping support to >> avoid huge Oracle fees [1], which the Opera developers have publicly >> refuted [2], I have to wonder if the OGB shouldn't instead be taking >> action to remove a disruptive, lying troll from the community. > > We defiitely need to discuss this on the next meeting. > >> [1] >> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2010-April/056232.html >> [2] >> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2010-May/056475.html > > Jörg No need to wait that long. If there is a call for a vote on the matter you have my public input for a formal ban under the terms of the TOU now. If there are some procedural details we can sort that out as required. -- Dennis Clarke dcla...@opensolaris.ca <- Email related to the open source Solaris dcla...@blastwave.org <- Email related to open source for Solaris ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB intervene?
On 05/11/10 09:54 AM, Dennis Clarke wrote: Alan Coopersmith wrote: John Sonnenschein wrote: You are forging emails for your own political gains and I'm going to have to ask you to stop slandering me and my work *immediately*. It is completely unacceptable behaviour. Given Mr. Johnson's previous posts about Opera dropping support to avoid huge Oracle fees [1], which the Opera developers have publicly refuted [2], I have to wonder if the OGB shouldn't instead be taking action to remove a disruptive, lying troll from the community. We defiitely need to discuss this on the next meeting. [1] http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2010-April/056232.html [2] http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2010-May/056475.html Jörg No need to wait that long. If there is a call for a vote on the matter you have my public input for a formal ban under the terms of the TOU now. If there are some procedural details we can sort that out as required. Quick question -- will a ban do any good? Is there anyway to verify that david.johnson.x...@gmail.com is anyone actually someone named david.johnson? AFAIK, anyone can get a gmail account and call it anything they want. So, you ban this gmail account, and tomorrow he's back as bill smith, or paul jones. Just asking ... emike ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB intervene?
>> No need to wait that long. If there is a call for a vote on the matter you >> have my public input for a formal ban under the terms of the TOU now. If >> there are some procedural details we can sort that out as required. >> >> > > Quick question -- will a ban do any good? Is there anyway to verify > that david.johnson.x...@gmail.com is anyone actually someone > named david.johnson? > > AFAIK, anyone can get a gmail account and call it anything they want. > So, you ban this gmail account, and tomorrow he's back as bill smith, > or paul jones. > > Just asking ... > > emike Obviously everybody could do this any arbitrary number of times. But every time this person needs a new email address for activating his list subscription(s). After a while this person might get tired of it and go elsewhere. The only 100% waterproof method against such malicious behavior would be, to generally set all list messages to all lists under moderator review. And this would cost money (staff), while simultaneously significantly slowing down communication. You can only add some email address to a blacklist _after_ first impact. Although I see one compromise: Instead of a blacklist a green-list should be maintained. (With all Oracle employees, contributors plus known long-term community members on it). Furthermore I must also agree with Richard Hamilton: With (some more) authoritative community interaction and communication from Oracle's side, nobody could ever have believed such a troll in the first place. Not for a minute! It is Oracle who created the vacuum, which naturally tends to fill up with FUD! And by the way, while I also fell in this troll's 2 traps, it took a long time until somebody went the steps to prove that troll being a liar. So in fact I was by no means the only one who was fooled. While I appear to be the only one until now who apologized and accepted full responsibility for having believed and fed him But unfortunately that's normal social behavior. %mab ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB intervene?
On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 6:15 AM, Dave Johnson wrote: > This is how Oracle treats open communities and projects. Will OGB intervene? While I have not been following this soap opera in excruciating detail, my reading of the ARC discussions was that the ksh-93 project to replace existing GNU utilities with ksh-wrapper AST based versions that were not completely compatible and that would not track future evolution of the GNU utilities was withdrawn for good architectural reasons. Since the ARC case was not approved, it follows that repo putback access for that part of the project would also be withheld - a standard ON procedural action that applies to everyone: No approved ARC case, no putback. To answer your question: Will the OGB intervene? The constitution says (note the first sentence): 3.1 Disputes It is expected and encouraged that groups will resolve disputes by themselves according to their documented decision-making procedures. If a dispute can not be resolved within a group or it spreads between groups, then the Governing Board may choose to intervene. The Board will consider disputes on a case-by-case basis and may decline to intervene. If the Board chooses to intervene, it will resolve the issue at its absolute discretion with no possibility of appeal. Its resolution will be binding on all parties. Given this understanding (which may be flawed, but your posts do nothing to show that it is), this all smells like an overly emotional early Monday morning troll; I see no reason for the OGB to get involved. -John ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
