Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] OpenSolaris Developer Preview 2 Available
And Indiana is pushing me away from Solaris. If I wanted the poorly thought out and unstable crap that comes the linux mindset I would just go with linux. I am looking for something that is well thought out and stable This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] OpenSolaris Developer Preview 2 Available
On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 5:02 PM, Dr. Robert Pasken [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And Indiana is pushing me away from Solaris. If I wanted the poorly thought out and unstable crap that comes the linux mindset I would just go with linux. I am looking for something that is well thought out and stable Indiana is a prototype at this stage. Solaris is the same it always has been, and the current release will be supported for a very long time. If you want to influence the direction of the project; constructive criticism is appreciated. In other woods, if you have specific issues, please bring them up. Otherwise, I'm not certain how your problems can be resolved. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] OpenSolaris Developer Preview 2 Available
Dr. Robert Pasken wrote: And Indiana is pushing me away from Solaris. If I wanted the poorly thought out and unstable crap that comes the linux mindset I would just go with linux. I am looking for something that is well thought out and stable Simple enough, ignore Indiana. Use Solaris 10 if you want something supported, or SXCE if you want something more modern without the rapid development of Indiana. Also, please remember that you have not seen Indiana yet, it hasn't been released; you have seen a preview of a work in progress. Brian Utterback ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] OpenSolaris Developer Preview 2 Available
[i]Maybe because it costs Sun too much money to maintain multiple release preview trains?[/i] Maybe, maybe, maybe. Probably. Still, as member of a target audience (so I understand), to me the money seems - another time - not wisely spent. Having been on Linux since early RedHat, later on Debian, the real, first, attraction was Nexenta. I didn't understand the Solaris-part, but the apt-get was like home. Alpha 6 served my purposes (almost), and had ravishing reviews, Slashdot was looking ... ... Jonathan had it about the beauty of GPLv3, Ian was brought in. *That* was a slot in time when things could have been accelerated enormously. Alas, it passed, today I don't really know what Ian is doing, Nexenta has punched itself into K.O. twice. The story continues, somehow Nexenta had whetted the appetite and things were to go further. Solaris 10 turned out boring, to me, but SXDE 09/07 was a revelation. Not only the simplest install ever, it rebooted as a an almost complete workstation, including Flash, Real, Sun Studio, Thunderbird, Java. Blastwave was needed for MPlayer only. That was the thing to go and to do! Of course, still in the making. Shell without tab-completion, a PATH on the silly side. While RedMond always knows to impress, but fails to deliver, SXDE 09/07 was the opposite. It weaknesses were self-inflicted, like me having to install findutils from Blastwave to find that wget didn't need to be installed, it simply was there, but hidden in a place a newbie would have never even heard of. But how could I know (or just guess?)! All minor things, polishing, install and upgrade beauty, and we'd be there. Then Indiana came about, a comparative disappointment. Nexenta Alpha 6 had been better at its time, soon two years ago. Now, w.r.t. public perception, Solaris seems back in almost oblivion. And why not? SXDE, or nv81, are fabulous distributions as such. Adding proper WiFi support (WPA), another printer applet, more robust install/upgrade, and the dream-machine (at least to me and some of my colleagues) would have been made - were it not for impossibilities on the licensing front; neither is distributable. (The disease of SUN software since the dawn of mankind, so to say.) While Indiana is re-distributable, but - sorry to say - as of now early alpha. Again: Why should 'the public' bother: Solaris 10 will still be updated, but probably retire, SX.E is non-free software, not to be used in production, Indiana is of no real use, yet, at least. Something looks wrong, doesn't it? No clear vision, no roadmap; so it might look to an outsider. Not? Uwe This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] OpenSolaris Developer Preview 2 Available
The preview is absolutely an experiment. Indiana itself is an experiment. OpenSolaris? Well, I don't know what to call it ;-) I see Indiana is an experiment well I think it is more than that! From: Net Talks Webcast Details: Sorting Out Solaris Releases http://nettalk.sun.com/bhive/t/1000/webcast_details.jsp?content_id=1422 Larry Wake (Solaris Group Marking Manager) Quote : == OpenSolaris as a distro (Project Indiana) - Coming soon - To replace SXDE, not Solaris 10 - yet == Andrew ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] OpenSolaris Developer Preview 2 Available
On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 6:43 AM, Andrew Watkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The preview is absolutely an experiment. Indiana itself is an experiment. OpenSolaris? Well, I don't know what to call it ;-) I see Indiana is an experiment well I think it is more than that! Marketing and engineering don't always have the same message -- you know that :) -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] OpenSolaris Developer Preview 2 Available
Andrew Watkins wrote: The preview is absolutely an experiment. Indiana itself is an experiment. OpenSolaris? Well, I don't know what to call it ;-) I see Indiana is an experiment well I think it is more than that! Eventually, we expect it will be more, that's what Larry is saying. Which part of the quote below do you think is contradictory to that? Dave From: Net Talks Webcast Details: Sorting Out Solaris Releases http://nettalk.sun.com/bhive/t/1000/webcast_details.jsp?content_id=1422 Larry Wake (Solaris Group Marking Manager) Quote : == OpenSolaris as a distro (Project Indiana) - Coming soon - To replace SXDE, not Solaris 10 - yet == Andrew ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] OpenSolaris Developer Preview 2 Available
On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 10:26:15AM -0500, Dave Miner wrote: Andrew Watkins wrote: The preview is absolutely an experiment. Indiana itself is an experiment. OpenSolaris? Well, I don't know what to call it ;-) I see Indiana is an experiment well I think it is more than that! Eventually, we expect it will be more, that's what Larry is saying. Which part of the quote below do you think is contradictory to that? I don't see why it has to replace SXCE/SXDE at all, given that it's just an experiment. Ceri -- That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all. -- Moliere pgp6QPgnfYp8Q.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] OpenSolaris Developer Preview 2 Available
On Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 11:21 PM, Dave Miner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The preview is absolutely an experiment. Indiana itself is an experiment. OpenSolaris? Well, I don't know what to call it ;-) I realize from that answer that my question was ill-formed. It's clear that there is some experimentation in how to build a product. My concern is that there is experimentation not only in the means of delivery but in what's being delivered. Myself, I would prefer the two parts of the experiment to be separate. Perhaps this will be more helpful: in terms of the release taxonomy[1] that the ARC uses, we'd say that the Indiana releases are snapshots of a development train that has a Minor Release binding. For what it's worth, SXDE and SXCE are classified the same way. That doesn't mean that every snapshot will necessarily qualify to be a Minor Release in terms of compatibility, though. If anyone's expecting that every build that comes out won't break compatibility in some way, that's just not realistic. Besides the unintentional cases that inevitably happen, it'll also happen as pieces come together in stages. Obviously some find a few of the experiments in the Indiana train unsettling, but we think it's the best way to figure out where to go. I love the experimentation. Heaven only knows we need it. My concern here is that Indiana is trying to be (or is seen to be, or is being marketed as) several different things at once and, apart from the confusion that results, it could end up in a 'jack of all trades, master of none' scenario. So I think I would prefer to see a situation where a given release focussed on one area - which for now would probably be simply getting the mechanics of the delivery scheme sorted. -- -Peter Tribble http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] OpenSolaris Developer Preview 2 Available
On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 2:28 PM, Ceri Davies [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 10:26:15AM -0500, Dave Miner wrote: Andrew Watkins wrote: The preview is absolutely an experiment. Indiana itself is an experiment. OpenSolaris? Well, I don't know what to call it ;-) I see Indiana is an experiment well I think it is more than that! Eventually, we expect it will be more, that's what Larry is saying. Which part of the quote below do you think is contradictory to that? I don't see why it has to replace SXCE/SXDE at all, given that it's just an experiment. Maybe because it costs Sun too much money to maintain multiple release preview trains? Dunno. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] OpenSolaris Developer Preview 2 Available
Dave Miner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The old shell is now: /usr/has/bin/sh Well, then Sun seems to start an incompatible fork from OpenSolaris. Sigh. We have made no statements about compatibility with anything, either past or future, in the preview releases. It's an experiment. Sun did make statements about long term compatibility and many Solaris users did stay with Solaris _because_ of these statements. The negativity some of you have towards experiments just amazes me sometimes. You may like to call it negativity from the view you have on the problem. I call it the result of 26 years of experiences with UNIX hacking. With the right skills, you do not need to do every possible experiment because you already know the results or because you know that the constraints under which you run the experiment are not sufficient to give useful results at all. What I did (adding a command line editor with file name completion to the Bourne Shell) _can_ be tested in an experimental OpenSolaris distribution like SchilliX or Indiana. This can be said because there is a single line of code that needs to be done right in order to avoid problems. If we like to make /sbin/sh a useful shell for interactive use, we just need to make sure that the editor code is not activated under the wrong circumstances. This definitely can be tested by checking _only_ the functionality inside Solaris because there is a higher variance in usage (for this particular problem) than external users would introduce. I still detected a minor problem on Tuesday (after 14 days of testing) that will fixed with SchilliX-0.6.3 You however cannot test a /sbin/sh /bin/ksh93 change inside Solaris only. Indiana definitely has the wrong audience to give expressive testing depth for this highly complex change. You only would reach the right testers audience if you created a beta distribution that would be tested by industrial or financial customers in real world environments. Indiana is mainly targeted for individuals that used Linux before.so you cannot use results from an Indiana based test for a Solaris change with high risk potential. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] OpenSolaris Developer Preview 2 Available
On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 3:54 AM, Joerg Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave Miner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The old shell is now: /usr/has/bin/sh Well, then Sun seems to start an incompatible fork from OpenSolaris. Sigh. We have made no statements about compatibility with anything, either past or future, in the preview releases. It's an experiment. Sun did make statements about long term compatibility and many Solaris users did stay with Solaris _because_ of these statements. Those statements only apply to production releases of Solaris; not to active development by anyone. In addition, Sun's statements are not without qualification. If you read through Sun's compatibility promises, there are certain provisions that do allow them to break compatibility under certain circumstances and their guarantees only apply to specific things. The negativity some of you have towards experiments just amazes me sometimes. You may like to call it negativity from the view you have on the problem. I call it negativity because your claims are not yet justified. Until all of the changes made in Indiana become part of a production release of Solaris or are integrated into the mainline Solaris tree, it is premature at best to make the claims you have. Guarantees and compatibility can't apply to active development; only to a finished product. You however cannot test a /sbin/sh /bin/ksh93 change inside Solaris only. I'm not aware of any rules that say you can't. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] OpenSolaris Developer Preview 2 Available
So what are you basically saying is that: Solaris should keep /bin/sh for as long as it stands even if a more stable/more flexible/better designed/ exists just because there may be old customers without renewed support (I'm sure customers with support would have their scripts fixed in no time) who had some scripts that relied on some particularities of /bin/sh ? This sure sounds like a good road to stagnation. Plus I don't expect any serious financial/etc.. institutions to run first versions of Indiana on production just as I wouldn't expect them to run on Solaris Nevada. Give them another 3 years or so, and they will maybe migrate. Debating /bin/sh as if it suddenly changes everything Solaris stands for (to me it stands out mainly by the stability of the kernel, dtrace, zfs, zones and most importantly - its code goes through proper review processes). This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] OpenSolaris Developer Preview 2 Available
Glynn Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: o ksh93 is the default *system* shell (bash remains the default user shell) What do you understand by *system* shell? Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] OpenSolaris Developer Preview 2 Available
On Feb 13, 2008 11:10 AM, Joerg Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Glynn Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: o ksh93 is the default *system* shell (bash remains the default user shell) What do you understand by *system* shell? /sbin/sh, /usr/bin/sh are now really ksh93. The old shell is now: /usr/has/bin/sh ...since it is a hasbin :) -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] OpenSolaris Developer Preview 2 Available
Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 13, 2008 11:10 AM, Joerg Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Glynn Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: o ksh93 is the default *system* shell (bash remains the default user shell) What do you understand by *system* shell? /sbin/sh, /usr/bin/sh are now really ksh93. The old shell is now: /usr/has/bin/sh Well, then Suun seems to start an incompatible fork from OpenSolaris. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] OpenSolaris Developer Preview 2 Available
Joerg Schilling wrote: Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 13, 2008 11:10 AM, Joerg Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Glynn Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: o ksh93 is the default *system* shell (bash remains the default user shell) What do you understand by *system* shell? /sbin/sh, /usr/bin/sh are now really ksh93. The old shell is now: /usr/has/bin/sh Well, then Suun seems to start an incompatible fork from OpenSolaris. Sigh. We have made no statements about compatibility with anything, either past or future, in the preview releases. It's an experiment. The negativity some of you have towards experiments just amazes me sometimes. Dave ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] OpenSolaris Developer Preview 2 Available
On Feb 13, 2008 8:44 PM, Dave Miner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sigh. We have made no statements about compatibility with anything, either past or future, in the preview releases. It's an experiment. The negativity some of you have towards experiments just amazes me sometimes. But what's the experiment? Is OpenSolaris an experiment? Is Indiana an experiment? Is the preview an experiment? It would help a lot if the aims of this project were clearly explained and enunciated, because I for one haven't a clue what they are, and the more I think about it and look at what has been announced and what's happening, the less clear it is to me what Indiana stands for. -- -Peter Tribble http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] OpenSolaris Developer Preview 2 Available
Peter Tribble wrote: On Feb 13, 2008 8:44 PM, Dave Miner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sigh. We have made no statements about compatibility with anything, either past or future, in the preview releases. It's an experiment. The negativity some of you have towards experiments just amazes me sometimes. But what's the experiment? Is OpenSolaris an experiment? Is Indiana an experiment? Is the preview an experiment? The preview is absolutely an experiment. Indiana itself is an experiment. OpenSolaris? Well, I don't know what to call it ;-) Perhaps this will be more helpful: in terms of the release taxonomy[1] that the ARC uses, we'd say that the Indiana releases are snapshots of a development train that has a Minor Release binding. For what it's worth, SXDE and SXCE are classified the same way. That doesn't mean that every snapshot will necessarily qualify to be a Minor Release in terms of compatibility, though. If anyone's expecting that every build that comes out won't break compatibility in some way, that's just not realistic. Besides the unintentional cases that inevitably happen, it'll also happen as pieces come together in stages. Obviously some find a few of the experiments in the Indiana train unsettling, but we think it's the best way to figure out where to go. It would help a lot if the aims of this project were clearly explained and enunciated, because I for one haven't a clue what they are, and the more I think about it and look at what has been announced and what's happening, the less clear it is to me what Indiana stands for. The opening statement on the project page[2] remains as good a summary as any in terms of the aims. I think that's been quite stable since the beginning. Dave [1] http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/arc/policies/release-taxonomy/ [2] http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/indiana/ ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] OpenSolaris Developer Preview 2 Available
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008, Shawn Walker wrote: /usr/has/bin/sh ...since it is a hasbin :) Groan! -- Rich Teer, SCSA, SCNA, SCSECA, OGB member CEO, My Online Home Inventory URLs: http://www.rite-group.com/rich http://www.linkedin.com/in/richteer http://www.myonlinehomeinventory.com ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
