Re: [opensource-dev] Product Backlog addition request: Build fixes for 64bit out-of-source
On 08/26/2010 02:37 PM, Boroondas Gupte wrote: As some of you might know, I've been working on collecting patches and changesets on pJIRA and SVN that allow me to build lindenlab/viewer-development http://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-development with the settings above. I've applied them to my repository at http://bitbucket.org/boroondas/snowstorm-development , ported/modified them where necessary. I also had Techwolf port some of his own patches. (Available on his repo https://bitbucket.org/Techwolf/viewer-development. Thanks Techwolf!) The final result, merged with the many changes that came from upstream meanwhile, can be found at the current tip (i.e. rev a0292ef8) http://bitbucket.org/boroondas/snowstorm-development/changeset/a0292ef8 of my repository. Yesterday, I had to realize that hg was using my graphical merge tool of choice (meld http://meld.sourceforge.net/) differently than I expected (and different from what |git mergetool| does with it)^[1 #fn1] . Thus most merges where I manually resolved conflicts with meld are probably faulty. If I'm lucky, only doc/contributions.txt is affected, but I'm not sure. To avoid others cloning the faulty merges and applying new commits ontop of them, I've moved my repository to boroondas/snowstorm-development DON'T USE THIS REPO! Faulty merges! http://bitbucket.org/boroondas/snowstorm-development-dont-use-this-repo-faulty-merges. If you already have pulled or cloned from bitbucket.org/boroondas/snowstorm-development before that, please refrain to base any work on my merges or be prepared to having to rebase it. I'll follow up with a new clone at the original location of my repository soon and will hopefully get the merges right this time. (KDiff3, with the proper configuration http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/KDiff3, seems to augment hg better than meld, but I'm still new to it so have to be careful.) While I'm at it, I might also re-do some of the non-merge commits, so for now it might be saver to base nothing on /any/ commits by me. Sorry for the inconveniences and please bear with me as I learn all this stuff. As the Product Backlog inclusion is supposed to happen even before any work on the issue is started, I hope it can move forward regardless. Regards, Boroondas ^[1 #fn1back] |HGMERGE=meld hg resolve --all| displays three text fields side-by-side, from left to right: local, base, other. This seemed very similar to |git mergetool| with meld, which has from left to right: local, pre-merged, other.|| Thus I assumed that, as with |git mergetool| with meld, the edited middle field would serve as the merge result, when with hg, it actually http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/Meld was the edited local version in the left-most field. When one edits all 3 fields in meld until they're equal and then saves them, this doesn't matter, but I didn't do that in all cases. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 The money you paid LL wasn't for the sim, it was for the L$ you gave to the guy that actually paid real dollars for sim directly to LL. You gave away your game money, it's not LL's fault that you choose to do busyness with someone that couldn't be trusted. Did you had a contract where the guy promised to keep offering stuff for you to sublocate from him? I wouldn't expect you do, and i'm pretty sure you don't have a contract where LL promises to fill in for your landlord if he goes away. There are situations where LL disrespects their customers, but your landlord deciding to not rent a sim from LL anymore certainly isn't one of them. On 28/8/2010 09:50, Aleric Inglewood wrote: I know this is off topic, so I'll keep it as short as possible. After being a paying customer for more than a year, renting a homestead, and thus paying Linden Lab ~ USD$ 1000 or so ... they just take the sim offline, with no opening to even discuss the matter. Why? Because of something I did? No. The reason is that Linden Lab isn't interested in the little people. Unless you have a FULL sim of USD$ 300 per month, you don't count. Obviously I can't afford that; so us little people have to resort renting homesteads from strangers who own a full sim. The owner of that full sim was paid by everyone who rented a homestead from him, every month, in time. But one day he decided he wanted to quit. Apparently he stopped paying Linden Lab, so they took all his sims offline. Now what is wrong in this picture? Should the 50 or so under- renters be punished because of one? I had absolutely nothing to do with this guy, except that he needed to own the homestead in name, because of the completely nonsensical rule that Linden Lab doesn't want to make homesteads available directly. Well, fuck you too Linden Lab. So one day I have a home, my own island where I live and did built and work on for more than a year. Which is full of objects of my dead partner that I can use but not Take Back (no help from LInden Lab here either of course), and the next -poof- offline. Not because *I* didn't pay, but because LInden Lab doesn't give a shit about me, or my money. Or it's customers. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEAREKAAYFAkx5GsQACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmWPYQCfXdPzlhNp3/9l+3adHu0+5t6g nOQAn2vAhAc/qDxb1khzZet6fgQ/db1H =DvER -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...
You clearly missed the entire point of Aleric's post to this list. Either it was done deliberately or... The pure simple fact is that Aleric feels aggrieved, and I feel some sympathy for him/her on this point, that due to an entirely elitist business policy he/she now has lost his/her land. I say elitist because the policy is in effect this: LL's is willing to accept the homestead price (~$100USD, i'm not sure) from someone who can afford ~$300 USD a month. Yet wont accept that same some from someone who can't afford that. It makes no sense whatsoever. Indeed i'd argue that it would almost contravene discrimination laws here in my country. What is the price of a homstead from someone who can't afford a full sim not as good as from someone who can afford a full sim? The last time i looked $100.00 USD was $100.00 USD irrespective of who paid it. I guess not in the eyes of LL's. Aleric's gripe is that if LL didnt have the policy in place she/he would have paid their money happily directly to LL with the consequence that he/she would still be on the land that they had occupied for over a yr, had much invested in and had some sentimental value to them. That you feel that this doesn't actually disrespect users or customers of LL's is a sad indictment on your logical abilities. On 29/08/2010 12:18 AM, Tigro Spottystripes wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 The money you paid LL wasn't for the sim, it was for the L$ you gave to the guy that actually paid real dollars for sim directly to LL. You gave away your game money, it's not LL's fault that you choose to do busyness with someone that couldn't be trusted. Did you had a contract where the guy promised to keep offering stuff for you to sublocate from him? I wouldn't expect you do, and i'm pretty sure you don't have a contract where LL promises to fill in for your landlord if he goes away. There are situations where LL disrespects their customers, but your landlord deciding to not rent a sim from LL anymore certainly isn't one of them. On 28/8/2010 09:50, Aleric Inglewood wrote: I know this is off topic, so I'll keep it as short as possible. After being a paying customer for more than a year, renting a homestead, and thus paying Linden Lab ~ USD$ 1000 or so ... they just take the sim offline, with no opening to even discuss the matter. Why? Because of something I did? No. The reason is that Linden Lab isn't interested in the little people. Unless you have a FULL sim of USD$ 300 per month, you don't count. Obviously I can't afford that; so us little people have to resort renting homesteads from strangers who own a full sim. The owner of that full sim was paid by everyone who rented a homestead from him, every month, in time. But one day he decided he wanted to quit. Apparently he stopped paying Linden Lab, so they took all his sims offline. Now what is wrong in this picture? Should the 50 or so under- renters be punished because of one? I had absolutely nothing to do with this guy, except that he needed to own the homestead in name, because of the completely nonsensical rule that Linden Lab doesn't want to make homesteads available directly. Well, fuck you too Linden Lab. So one day I have a home, my own island where I live and did built and work on for more than a year. Which is full of objects of my dead partner that I can use but not Take Back (no help from LInden Lab here either of course), and the next -poof- offline. Not because *I* didn't pay, but because LInden Lab doesn't give a shit about me, or my money. Or it's customers. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEAREKAAYFAkx5GsQACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmWPYQCfXdPzlhNp3/9l+3adHu0+5t6g nOQAn2vAhAc/qDxb1khzZet6fgQ/db1H =DvER -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...
It makes no sense whatsoever. It makes some sense. It promotes a reseller market, creating an economy that otherwise wouldn't exist by requiring a middleman. I won't say I agree with it, but I don't really consider it something I need to make a strong decision on. Aleric's gripe is that if LL didnt have the policy in place she/he would have paid their money happily directly to LL with the consequence that he/she would still be on the land that they had occupied for over a yr, had much invested in and had some sentimental value to them. Aleric is not the first person to have suffered land being swept out from under them. I've had more than one set of friends that almost had it happen to them. That you feel that this doesn't actually disrespect users or customers of LL's is a sad indictment on your logical abilities. This is a problem that LL should have addressed already, yes. One way it can be addressed by providing resellers, or those that purchase land from resellers, with more information. Suggesting a contract template between renter and reseller to protect each with some level of protection might also be a good idea. A legal recourse to follow when someone breaks their contract, either landlord or renter, is better than impotence. I don't know why LL doesn't sell Homesteads to the average resident. It might be intentional, it might be a legacy policy that hasn't been reevaluated and cleared up yet. But it's still possible to work within the system and not get screwed over. There just needs to be more education about the existing system. My heart goes out to Aleric, and I hope this can be resolved positively. It won't be resolved on this list, though. Jack Linden's office hours might be the best place to bring it up (I'm not sure). Thursdays at 11am. http://slurl.com/secondlife/Linden%20Estate%20Services/213/107/49 Submitting a ticket asking for a deferral on the actual deletion of the sim ASAP is a good place to start. Finding a new Homestead holder and talking with the old reseller to get the sim transferred over is your best bet to salvage it. There's a US$100 or L$28000 fee to transfer, but it's better than losing it. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Private_Region_Transfer_FAQ Good luck. -Stickman ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...
One way to fix this problem is for LL to enable tenants of rented-out sims to directly take over payment of tier. But of course, if any one tenant quits paying, there's still the risk that the sim tier won't be paid, and I doubt anyone thinks LL should offer the sim for free. I did already reply offlist to this pointing out how offtopic it is though, and pointing out that LL have no contract with tenants of rental regions - tenants of such regions are thus not customers. On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Stickman stick...@gmail.com wrote: It makes no sense whatsoever. It makes some sense. It promotes a reseller market, creating an economy that otherwise wouldn't exist by requiring a middleman. I won't say I agree with it, but I don't really consider it something I need to make a strong decision on. Aleric's gripe is that if LL didnt have the policy in place she/he would have paid their money happily directly to LL with the consequence that he/she would still be on the land that they had occupied for over a yr, had much invested in and had some sentimental value to them. Aleric is not the first person to have suffered land being swept out from under them. I've had more than one set of friends that almost had it happen to them. That you feel that this doesn't actually disrespect users or customers of LL's is a sad indictment on your logical abilities. This is a problem that LL should have addressed already, yes. One way it can be addressed by providing resellers, or those that purchase land from resellers, with more information. Suggesting a contract template between renter and reseller to protect each with some level of protection might also be a good idea. A legal recourse to follow when someone breaks their contract, either landlord or renter, is better than impotence. I don't know why LL doesn't sell Homesteads to the average resident. It might be intentional, it might be a legacy policy that hasn't been reevaluated and cleared up yet. But it's still possible to work within the system and not get screwed over. There just needs to be more education about the existing system. My heart goes out to Aleric, and I hope this can be resolved positively. It won't be resolved on this list, though. Jack Linden's office hours might be the best place to bring it up (I'm not sure). Thursdays at 11am. http://slurl.com/secondlife/Linden%20Estate%20Services/213/107/49 Submitting a ticket asking for a deferral on the actual deletion of the sim ASAP is a good place to start. Finding a new Homestead holder and talking with the old reseller to get the sim transferred over is your best bet to salvage it. There's a US$100 or L$28000 fee to transfer, but it's better than losing it. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Private_Region_Transfer_FAQ Good luck. -Stickman ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -- “Lanie, I’m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for everyone. That’s worth going to jail for. That’s worth anything.” - Printcrime by Cory Doctrow Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...
On 29/08/2010 1:23 AM, Gareth Nelson wrote: and pointing out that LL have no contract with tenants of rental regions - tenants of such regions are thus not customers. True. But a premium account holder is a customer of LL. And to say well we dont want you $100 a month because your not a full sim owner is a slap in the face, period. FWIW i'm a premium account holder...whose now returning to lurking. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...
After being a paying customer for more than a year, renting a homestead, and thus paying Linden Lab ~ USD$ 1000 or so ... they just take the sim offline, with no opening to even discuss the matter. Why? Because of something I did? No. The reason is that Linden Lab isn't interested in the little people. Unless you have a FULL sim of USD$ 300 per month, you don't count. There is a simple answer for this. You are the customer of your landlord in this case, not Linden Lab. Yes, you have a Second Life account, but you are not renting your land from Linden Lab. You are renting your land from another avatar in Second Life. Linden Lab is not a party to your decision to rent... so why are they accountable if some other avatar bails out and decides to level their city block? If the landlord decided to stop renting, boot everyone off and re-terraform the region for some completely different use, would you think Linden Lab would have any responsibility for stopping that or somehow compensating you? It's the landlord's land, and they can do anything with it they choose to, including shut it down, leave, take it over from the renters, or shut it down and let no one else in at all. Joel ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...
Quick note... if the $100 a month, if this is rent, is not being paid to Linden Lab if you're renting. It's paid to another avatar... different picture... It seems to me the slap in the face is a landlord who does this to a large number of tenants without notice, actually. Joel (also going back to lurking) On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Darmath darm...@tpg.com.au wrote: On 29/08/2010 1:23 AM, Gareth Nelson wrote: and pointing out that LL have no contract with tenants of rental regions - tenants of such regions are thus not customers. True. But a premium account holder is a customer of LL. And to say well we dont want you $100 a month because your not a full sim owner is a slap in the face, period. FWIW i'm a premium account holder...whose now returning to lurking. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...
I don't think anyone disagrees with. The problem is you can't get a homestead unless you have a full sim already and so you need to rent from someone and this puts you dependent on someone else which is frustrating for people. So to log in one day and see all your hard work returned to your lost and found isn't a pleasant experience and seems SL if they are serious about the user experience would have some better ways to handle this. I don't know if you rent from someone else if you can do a restore of your region to the new location. But seems like there are ways to make this better if not just let people rent homesteads which to me I believe would be a huge market. Anyway this whole subject is off topic for this mailing list and probably should be on the SL forums. M. _ From: opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Joel Foner Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 11:49 AM To: Aleric Inglewood Cc: opensource-dev Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers... After being a paying customer for more than a year, renting a homestead, and thus paying Linden Lab ~ USD$ 1000 or so ... they just take the sim offline, with no opening to even discuss the matter. Why? Because of something I did? No. The reason is that Linden Lab isn't interested in the little people. Unless you have a FULL sim of USD$ 300 per month, you don't count. There is a simple answer for this. You are the customer of your landlord in this case, not Linden Lab. Yes, you have a Second Life account, but you are not renting your land from Linden Lab. You are renting your land from another avatar in Second Life. Linden Lab is not a party to your decision to rent... so why are they accountable if some other avatar bails out and decides to level their city block? If the landlord decided to stop renting, boot everyone off and re-terraform the region for some completely different use, would you think Linden Lab would have any responsibility for stopping that or somehow compensating you? It's the landlord's land, and they can do anything with it they choose to, including shut it down, leave, take it over from the renters, or shut it down and let no one else in at all. Joel ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 btw, if you're considering changing your account from premium to basic, be sure to pay any money you own to LL and then downgrade your account thru the site, do not just stop paying, if you stop paying them while still being a premium they will wipe out all your account's data, inventory L$ balance etc (i've seen some people that had the misconception that to downgrade all you had to do was stop sending money to LL, the ones that didn't got set straight in time lost everything) On 28/8/2010 13:01, mysticaldem...@xrgrid.com wrote: I don’t think anyone disagrees with. The problem is you can’t get a homestead unless you have a full sim already and so you need to rent from someone and this puts you dependent on someone else which is frustrating for people. So to log in one day and see all your hard work returned to your lost and found isn’t a pleasant experience and seems SL if they are serious about the user experience would have some better ways to handle this. I don’t know if you rent from someone else if you can do a restore of your region to the new location. But seems like there are ways to make this better if not just let people rent homesteads which to me I believe would be a huge market. Anyway this whole subject is off topic for this mailing list and probably should be on the SL forums. M. *From:* opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] *On Behalf Of *Joel Foner *Sent:* Saturday, August 28, 2010 11:49 AM *To:* Aleric Inglewood *Cc:* opensource-dev *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers... After being a paying customer for more than a year, renting a homestead, and thus paying Linden Lab ~ USD$ 1000 or so ... they just take the sim offline, with no opening to even discuss the matter. Why? Because of something I did? No. The reason is that Linden Lab isn't interested in the little people. Unless you have a FULL sim of USD$ 300 per month, you don't count. There is a simple answer for this. You are the customer of your landlord in this case, not Linden Lab. Yes, you have a Second Life account, but you are not renting your land from Linden Lab. You are renting your land from another avatar in Second Life. Linden Lab is not a party to your decision to rent... so why are they accountable if some other avatar bails out and decides to level their city block? If the landlord decided to stop renting, boot everyone off and re-terraform the region for some completely different use, would you think Linden Lab would have any responsibility for stopping that or somehow compensating you? It's the landlord's land, and they can do anything with it they choose to, including shut it down, leave, take it over from the renters, or shut it down and let no one else in at all. Joel ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEAREKAAYFAkx5Os0ACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmWNbQCeL35cNo4MkluDPXFx2+ZGb3z3 G/UAn31zdQ2HEKMoRzbp+3CYV/C+O5CM =pGVm -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...
On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 5:50 AM, Aleric Inglewood aleric.inglew...@gmail.com wrote: So one day I have a home, my own island where I live and did built and work on for more than a year. Which is full of objects of my dead partner that I can use but not Take Back (no help from LInden Lab here either of course), and the next -poof- offline. Not because *I* didn't pay, but because LInden Lab doesn't give a shit about me, or my money. Or it's customers. I hate that this has happened, and I don't know the reason why the full region prerequisite exists so I can't say if it makes sense. I don't think you've exhausted the concierge options, though. I'll follow up off-list, given that this is definitely way off topic. -- Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 18:19:57 +0100 Gareth Nelson gar...@garethnelson.com wrote: That's a serious bug in LL's business model - your account is safer as a basic, since a premium account that quits paying means the account is deleted (rather than merely downgraded). nobody is deleted why skip a payment, happened to me some time ago, account is just suspended and login inworld locked, as soon as you fill the debt all is restored. I use a revolving credit card, this mean i can use it after charged with money (ui use always this on all internet shopping activities, so if somebody steal the number cannot take my money, every time i charge only the cash needed). if somebody skip payments to LL, hold payments from customers and let suspension expire losing account and sims owned isn't a victim, is a thief... and i don't think is a fault of LL business model ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...
Sorry, but you are ignorant. A running sim is being paid for. That money is paid to Linden Lab. It doesn't matter if that money was first paid by a grandmother to her grandson, then double by gambling in the casino and subsequently paid to some random stranger on Xstreet who give L$ for it, which then were paid to some untrusty game-landlord who gave the game money to yet another random stranger on Xstreet for which he recceived real dollars which then finally are paid to Linden Lab. Namely, if the guy actually using the sim doesn't want to pay for it, the sim can't run. The fact that it runs means someone pays for it and you can bet on it that that comes from the wallet of the person using it (living on it). So, in this case the sim was running a year aka $100 per month. Now the sim isn't running anymore and this income of LL stopped. The renter then offers to continue renting it for $100 per month, by paying *directly* to LL, but that is not accepted. It is this last thing that is ridiculous. Or at the VERY LEAST it should be (or have been) possible to rent an isolated/private homestead directly from Linden Lab. Don't say that 'L$' isn't real money so one has no rights. This is not about what a RL lawyer would say, this is about common sense and people being pissed off till they vomit and want to run away screaming from SL, or at least from Linden Lab. On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:51:03AM -0400, Joel Foner wrote: Quick note... if the $100 a month, if this is rent, is not being paid to Linden Lab if you're renting. It's paid to another avatar... different picture... It seems to me the slap in the face is a landlord who does this to a large number of tenants without notice, actually. Joel (also going back to lurking) On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Darmath darm...@tpg.com.au wrote: On 29/08/2010 1:23 AM, Gareth Nelson wrote: and pointing out that LL have no contract with tenants of rental regions - tenants of such regions are thus not customers. True. But a premium account holder is a customer of LL. And to say well we dont want you $100 a month because your not a full sim owner is a slap in the face, period. FWIW i'm a premium account holder...whose now returning to lurking. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -- Carlo Wood ca...@alinoe.com ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...
After reading this thread, somehow all my past bad memories from being a mainland resident no longer seem quite so bad. On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Carlo Wood ca...@alinoe.com wrote: Sorry, but you are ignorant. A running sim is being paid for. That money is paid to Linden Lab. It doesn't matter if that money was first paid by a grandmother to her grandson, then double by gambling in the casino and subsequently paid to some random stranger on Xstreet who give L$ for it, which then were paid to some untrusty game-landlord who gave the game money to yet another random stranger on Xstreet for which he recceived real dollars which then finally are paid to Linden Lab. Namely, if the guy actually using the sim doesn't want to pay for it, the sim can't run. The fact that it runs means someone pays for it and you can bet on it that that comes from the wallet of the person using it (living on it). So, in this case the sim was running a year aka $100 per month. Now the sim isn't running anymore and this income of LL stopped. The renter then offers to continue renting it for $100 per month, by paying *directly* to LL, but that is not accepted. It is this last thing that is ridiculous. Or at the VERY LEAST it should be (or have been) possible to rent an isolated/private homestead directly from Linden Lab. Don't say that 'L$' isn't real money so one has no rights. This is not about what a RL lawyer would say, this is about common sense and people being pissed off till they vomit and want to run away screaming from SL, or at least from Linden Lab. On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:51:03AM -0400, Joel Foner wrote: Quick note... if the $100 a month, if this is rent, is not being paid to Linden Lab if you're renting. It's paid to another avatar... different picture... It seems to me the slap in the face is a landlord who does this to a large number of tenants without notice, actually. Joel (also going back to lurking) On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Darmath darm...@tpg.com.au wrote: On 29/08/2010 1:23 AM, Gareth Nelson wrote: and pointing out that LL have no contract with tenants of rental regions - tenants of such regions are thus not customers. True. But a premium account holder is a customer of LL. And to say well we dont want you $100 a month because your not a full sim owner is a slap in the face, period. FWIW i'm a premium account holder...whose now returning to lurking. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -- Carlo Wood ca...@alinoe.com ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...
Can you guys please take the topic elsewhere its hard to catch whats relevant with everyone discussing this off topic thread. I'm sure there is a sl-dr...@lists.secondlife.com or similar available for ranting about customer service and business practices but if I'm not mistaken this list is for opensource development of the sl viewer. Thank you for not filling my opensource-dev folder with any more of this :) - fellow former land owner that lost $250 all at once to 3rd party land purchase scam On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Dahlia Trimble dahliatrim...@gmail.com wrote: After reading this thread, somehow all my past bad memories from being a mainland resident no longer seem quite so bad. On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Carlo Wood ca...@alinoe.com wrote: Sorry, but you are ignorant. A running sim is being paid for. That money is paid to Linden Lab. It doesn't matter if that money was first paid by a grandmother to her grandson, then double by gambling in the casino and subsequently paid to some random stranger on Xstreet who give L$ for it, which then were paid to some untrusty game-landlord who gave the game money to yet another random stranger on Xstreet for which he recceived real dollars which then finally are paid to Linden Lab. Namely, if the guy actually using the sim doesn't want to pay for it, the sim can't run. The fact that it runs means someone pays for it and you can bet on it that that comes from the wallet of the person using it (living on it). So, in this case the sim was running a year aka $100 per month. Now the sim isn't running anymore and this income of LL stopped. The renter then offers to continue renting it for $100 per month, by paying *directly* to LL, but that is not accepted. It is this last thing that is ridiculous. Or at the VERY LEAST it should be (or have been) possible to rent an isolated/private homestead directly from Linden Lab. Don't say that 'L$' isn't real money so one has no rights. This is not about what a RL lawyer would say, this is about common sense and people being pissed off till they vomit and want to run away screaming from SL, or at least from Linden Lab. On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:51:03AM -0400, Joel Foner wrote: Quick note... if the $100 a month, if this is rent, is not being paid to Linden Lab if you're renting. It's paid to another avatar... different picture... It seems to me the slap in the face is a landlord who does this to a large number of tenants without notice, actually. Joel (also going back to lurking) On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Darmath darm...@tpg.com.au wrote: On 29/08/2010 1:23 AM, Gareth Nelson wrote: and pointing out that LL have no contract with tenants of rental regions - tenants of such regions are thus not customers. True. But a premium account holder is a customer of LL. And to say well we dont want you $100 a month because your not a full sim owner is a slap in the face, period. FWIW i'm a premium account holder...whose now returning to lurking. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -- Carlo Wood ca...@alinoe.com ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 12:56:56 -0700 Dahlia Trimble dahliatrim...@gmail.com wrote: After reading this thread, somehow all my past bad memories from being a mainland resident no longer seem quite so bad. if you don't pay your fee mainland too your account will be suspended anyway, and deleted ripping away the land if not fixed balance :) can we talk again about code and viewer? ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...
And what venues can we use? The forums are almost as heavily moderated as the mailing list, half of the time the blogs don't even allow you to comment. I'd like to see a site moderated by a third party that won't delete your account or add a moderation flag to your account just for talking negatively about Linden Lab. On 8/28/2010 1:02 PM, Altair Sythos Memo wrote: On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 12:56:56 -0700 Dahlia Trimbledahliatrim...@gmail.com wrote: After reading this thread, somehow all my past bad memories from being a mainland resident no longer seem quite so bad. if you don't pay your fee mainland too your account will be suspended anyway, and deleted ripping away the land if not fixed balance :) can we talk again about code and viewer? ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...
On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 6:54 PM, Meadhbh Hamrick ohmead...@gmail.com wrote: but for reasons i never learned, linden never implemented prim restrictions for openspace sims. so even though you were only supposed to have some small number of prims in an openspace sim, the system let you go over that limit. so guess what happened? yes, that's right, people started putting a lot of prims on sims hosted on overloaded cores. some sim owners even went so far as to rent out openspace sims to people without mentioning the fact that their new virtual parcels were hosted on CPUs that were a touch overtaxed. That's the interesting thing. Linden Labs did implement prim restrictions for openspace sims from the start. In fact, they had quite a small prim limit - 1875 prims, which was enough for the intended use and possibly a low-prim house somewhere for one or two users. Then Linden Labs, in an effort to make them more widely useful, *doubled* the prim limit. This was quite widely advertised at the time, and a large number of people bought them... just in time for Linden Labs to pull off a significant and unexpected price increase together with more restrictions. Of course, at that point everyone had already invested money and time in their regions that they didn't want to see wasted. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...
yep this was bait and switch scheme and they got away with it. They probably made around 5 millions dollars that summer when they did double the prim limit on openspace. It was actually one of the best move they did to the SL economy in years except when they decided to increase it. Many people have abandon their sims at that time and just left SL. Want a suggestion, you want a nice setup and you dont want it to be disrupted and for much cheaper. Find a opensim grid you enjoy, setup your own sim there (could be hosted on your own computer or vps hosting for 20$ a month) and this way no more trouble like this, you can even backup your whole sim in case you mess up something. LL is loosing more and more ground each time they doing what they like and not what the customers want. -Message d'origine- From: Aidan Thornton Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 6:24 PM To: Meadhbh Hamrick Cc: opensource-dev Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers... On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 6:54 PM, Meadhbh Hamrick ohmead...@gmail.com wrote: but for reasons i never learned, linden never implemented prim restrictions for openspace sims. so even though you were only supposed to have some small number of prims in an openspace sim, the system let you go over that limit. so guess what happened? yes, that's right, people started putting a lot of prims on sims hosted on overloaded cores. some sim owners even went so far as to rent out openspace sims to people without mentioning the fact that their new virtual parcels were hosted on CPUs that were a touch overtaxed. That's the interesting thing. Linden Labs did implement prim restrictions for openspace sims from the start. In fact, they had quite a small prim limit - 1875 prims, which was enough for the intended use and possibly a low-prim house somewhere for one or two users. Then Linden Labs, in an effort to make them more widely useful, *doubled* the prim limit. This was quite widely advertised at the time, and a large number of people bought them... just in time for Linden Labs to pull off a significant and unexpected price increase together with more restrictions. Of course, at that point everyone had already invested money and time in their regions that they didn't want to see wasted. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...
On 28 August 2010 21:25, Tigro Spottystripes tigrospottystri...@gmail.comwrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Please read http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-2647 Thanks! Resolved. -- Yoz ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
