Re: [opensource-dev] Draft update to the Contribution Agreement
On 2013-10-07 12:34 , Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: After some discussion with both Second Life and Desurium contributors, Linden Lab has produced a draft of a new Contributor License Agreement http://lecs.opensource.secondlife.com/draft-contribution-agreement-2013-10-04.pdf that we would like to use for both projects in the future. This email is an invitation to contributors and potential contributors to discuss that draft here. The final version of the new Contributor Agreement is available now at: http://lecs.opensource.secondlife.com/Contribution+Agreement.pdf If you signed the previous version, there's no need to execute this one (if you prefer this one, feel free to do so... the new one will then apply you all your contributions past and future). -- *Scott Lawrence* | /Director of Open Development/ Skype ozlinden skype://ozlinden | Second Life Oz Linden https://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Linden Lab| Makers of Shared Creative Spaces http://lindenlab.com/ Check out what we're working on! http://lindenlab.com/products ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Draft update to the Contribution Agreement
It is customary to include addresses of the parties on contracts in the USA. With only a name and signature, I could always claim it was some other Jason Giglio that agreed to the contract. There aren't many ways to enter a binding contract without risking outing, since for it to stand up in court, it has to positively identify that party who actually agreed to it. The phone number could probably be dispensed with, and I doubt Linden Lab would reject your contributors agreement if you just wrote no phone in there. It's not unprecedented that someone might not have a phone number these days. Regarding compulsory patent licensing, that's a very good thing. If you note, it also requires automatic patent licensing to all recipients of the software. It's basically a patent poison pill to prevent patent trolling. The big catch here is that Linden Lab needs to get permission from every previous contributor in order to change the license. If even one of them objects, it may not be possible. It's a murky area legally to try to surgically remove a previously accepted contribution and then change the license. Under most interpretations of copyright law, once a work is a derived work, you can't make it not a derived work, although you may be able to start from an earlier version that was not a derived work. -Gigs On 10/07/2013 06:50 PM, Henri Beauchamp wrote: On Mon, 07 Oct 2013 15:29:56 -0700, Andromeda Quonset wrote: Henri: I am simply curious and don't want to cause any argument or additional arguments about the matter, and I support everyone's rights to privacy. I just looked at http://www.cnil.fr/fileadmin/documents/en/Act78-17VA.pdf - See chapter II, article 6, paragraph 3 That reads as follows: 3° they shall be adequate, relevant and not excessive in relation to the purposes for which they are obtained and their further processing; I don't understand how that applies. The requested info (snail mail address and private phone number) are simply excessive in relation for the purpose (identifying an author: see below). Beside, that info is irrelevant to LL since it can change without them being notified (the author in question may move and/or change their phone number: mine changed 5 times in the last 10 years, due to lines being opened, then closed depending on my needs and moves, and to 2 ISP changes; I also already moved 3 times in 20 years). All what it results into is putting the author's RL data at risk of being outed on Internet and stalked in RL. The other question I would ask you: when you register any original written work for a copyright in France, don't you have to put in some kind of identifying information? The forename, family name and your signature are enough (normally complemented with your birthdate). Again, your address and phone number may change anytime and are perfectly *irrelevant*. I will also remind you how, back in 2007, LL got its customers' payment data stolen by pirates... The stolen file was allegedly crypted, but it doesn't change a fact: databases are vulnerable, and I'm not going to endanger my privacy on Internet, in any way. Call me paranoid if you wish, but my point is valid nonetheless. Henri. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Draft update to the Contribution Agreement
On 2013-10-07 14:52 , Nicky Perian wrote: The original CLA may have same items and I just did not catch that casual verbal / oral conversations unless prefaced with this is not a contribution would be considered a contribution. For me, that puts a chill on discussing with any LL employee the technical feasibility of an idea that may or may not become a contribution. I confess that I missed the reference to verbal. It has been my practice to insist that we always get contributions in writing and normally in an archival location (jira, codereview, the mailing list). I've already added this to my list of issues to discuss with the lawyers before the next draft. -- *Scott Lawrence* | /Director of Open Development/ Skype ozlinden skype://ozlinden | Second Life Oz Linden https://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Linden Lab| Makers of Shared Creative Spaces http://lindenlab.com/ Check out what we're working on! http://lindenlab.com/products ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Draft update to the Contribution Agreement
On 2013-10-07 18:50 , Henri Beauchamp wrote: The requested info (snail mail address and private phone number) are simply excessive in relation for the purpose (identifying an author: see below). We don't believe that information is excessive for that purpose. You are of course free to disagree, as we are free to not enter into the agreement without it. -- *Scott Lawrence* | /Director of Open Development/ Skype ozlinden skype://ozlinden | Second Life Oz Linden https://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Linden Lab| Makers of Shared Creative Spaces http://lindenlab.com/ Check out what we're working on! http://lindenlab.com/products ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
[opensource-dev] Draft update to the Contribution Agreement
As most of you probably know, Linden Lab acquired Desura^(TM), a digital distribution service for PC gamers. The code for the Desura client is open source, managed as the Desurium project on github https://github.com/desura/Desurium. The Desurium project used a different open source licenses (GPLv3) than we use for the Second Life Viewer project, and had its own Contribution Agreement. After some discussion with both Second Life and Desurium contributors, Linden Lab has produced a draft of a new Contributor License Agreement http://lecs.opensource.secondlife.com/draft-contribution-agreement-2013-10-04.pdf that we would like to use for both projects in the future. This email is an invitation to contributors and potential contributors to discuss that draft here. -- *Scott Lawrence* | /Director of Open Development/ Skype ozlinden skype://ozlinden | Second Life Oz Linden https://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Linden Lab| Makers of Shared Creative Spaces http://lindenlab.com/ Check out what we're working on! http://lindenlab.com/products ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Draft update to the Contribution Agreement
Well, It certainly is interesting. The gist seems to be, LL becomes a full co-owner of the contribution, including owning half of any copyright or patent claims to any submitted contribution. This is sensible, as any contribution becomes a core part of LL's business. I do like that LL now takes up the mantle of defending against any infringement themselves, rather than leaving that seemingly in the contributor's hands. I think it also does a better job of making clear that the contribution still belongs (in part) to the contributor, and that they can still do anything, and everything they want to do with it, as long as that doesn't involve removing that same right from LL, their 'partner'. But of course the core objection most have is still there, that the 'partnership' is a bit lopsided. But If you were already comfortable with contributing code with no expectation of financial gain, I don't see anything that would change that feeling of comfort. - Dari On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) o...@lindenlab.com wrote: As most of you probably know, Linden Lab acquired Desura™, a digital distribution service for PC gamers. The code for the Desura client is open source, managed as the Desurium project on github https://github.com/desura/Desurium. The Desurium project used a different open source licenses (GPLv3) than we use for the Second Life Viewer project, and had its own Contribution Agreement. After some discussion with both Second Life and Desurium contributors, Linden Lab has produced a draft of a new Contributor License Agreementhttp://lecs.opensource.secondlife.com/draft-contribution-agreement-2013-10-04.pdfthat we would like to use for both projects in the future. This email is an invitation to contributors and potential contributors to discuss that draft here. -- *Scott Lawrence* | *Director of Open Development* Skype ozlinden | Second Life Oz Lindenhttps://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Linden Lab | Makers of Shared Creative Spaces http://lindenlab.com/ Check out what we're working on! http://lindenlab.com/products ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Draft update to the Contribution Agreement
On Mon, 07 Oct 2013 12:34:45 -0400, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: As most of you probably know, Linden Lab acquired Desura^(TM), a digital distribution service for PC gamers. The code for the Desura client is open source, managed as the Desurium project on github https://github.com/desura/Desurium. The Desurium project used a different open source licenses (GPLv3) than we use for the Second Life Viewer project, and had its own Contribution Agreement. After some discussion with both Second Life and Desurium contributors, Linden Lab has produced a draft of a new Contributor License Agreement http://lecs.opensource.secondlife.com/draft-contribution-agreement-2013-10-04.pdf that we would like to use for both projects in the future. This email is an invitation to contributors and potential contributors to discuss that draft here. This CA, just like the previous one, violates the contributors' right to privacy by requesting the contributor's snail mail address and phone number (!?!?!) and as such, is illegal in France (law Informatique et Liberté: http://www.cnil.fr/fileadmin/documents/en/Act78-17VA.pdf - See chapter II, article 6, paragraph 3). Note that such info is not only excessive for the purpose (in case of a legal dispute, an US judge can get my private address from the French justice, based on my IP address which my ISP will be legally tied to disclose on a judge's demand), but it is also unreliable and thus, perfectly useless (what about persons who move or simply change their ISP and thus their phone number ?). I will not sign such a CA... unless Linden Lab's employees all provide me with their own snail mail address and private phone numbers, LOL !!! Henri. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Draft update to the Contribution Agreement
The original CLA may have same items and I just did not catch that casual verbal / oral conversations unless prefaced with this is not a contribution would be considered a contribution. For me, that puts a chill on discussing with any LL employee the technical feasibility of an idea that may or may not become a contribution. From: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) o...@lindenlab.com To: opensource-dev opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 11:34 AM Subject: [opensource-dev] Draft update to the Contribution Agreement As most of you probably know, Linden Lab acquired Desura™, a digital distribution service for PC gamers. The code for the Desura client is open source, managed as the Desurium project on github. The Desurium project used a different open source licenses (GPLv3) than we use for the Second Life Viewer project, and had its own Contribution Agreement. After some discussion with both Second Life and Desurium contributors, Linden Lab has produced a draft of a new Contributor License Agreement that we would like to use for both projects in the future. This email is an invitation to contributors and potential contributors to discuss that draft here. -- Scott Lawrence | Director of Open Development Skype ozlinden | Second Life Oz Linden Linden Lab| Makers of Shared Creative Spaces Check out what we're working on! ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Draft update to the Contribution Agreement
Or to put in simpler terms, If you don't want to give LL an idea, then absolutely, do not talk to them about it. Which you would think would be common sense. :) ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Draft update to the Contribution Agreement
I would say that's probably the Intent. If you're trying to pry details out of LL employees, with full knowledge you never intend to actually contribute the result, why should LL assist you in that? However, if you do intend to contribute, discussing the contribution with the understanding the discussion is contributory, would have no net effect on outcome. You'd already be contributing what you intend to contribute later. LL is simply protecting themselves from the scenario where someone mentions some idea, and Later LL does something similar, and then said person starts screaming LL stole my idea. Because this happens a lot, in all creative fields (TV, Movies, Music, Games, and software). This just lays it out clearly: If you discuss something with us, don't expect us to magically forget it. - Dari On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Nicky Perian nickyper...@yahoo.com wrote: The original CLA may have same items and I just did not catch that casual verbal / oral conversations unless prefaced with this is not a contribution would be considered a contribution. For me, that puts a chill on discussing with any LL employee the technical feasibility of an idea that may or may not become a contribution. -- *From:* Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) o...@lindenlab.com *To:* opensource-dev opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com *Sent:* Monday, October 7, 2013 11:34 AM *Subject:* [opensource-dev] Draft update to the Contribution Agreement As most of you probably know, Linden Lab acquired Desura™, a digital distribution service for PC gamers. The code for the Desura client is open source, managed as the Desurium project on github https://github.com/desura/Desurium. The Desurium project used a different open source licenses (GPLv3) than we use for the Second Life Viewer project, and had its own Contribution Agreement. After some discussion with both Second Life and Desurium contributors, Linden Lab has produced a draft of a new Contributor License Agreementhttp://lecs.opensource.secondlife.com/draft-contribution-agreement-2013-10-04.pdfthat we would like to use for both projects in the future. This email is an invitation to contributors and potential contributors to discuss that draft here. -- *Scott Lawrence* | *Director of Open Development* Skype ozlinden | Second Life Oz Lindenhttps://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Linden Lab | Makers of Shared Creative Spaces http://lindenlab.com/ Check out what we're working on! http://lindenlab.com/products ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Draft update to the Contribution Agreement
At 10:50 AM 10/7/2013, you wrote: This CA, just like the previous one, violates the contributors' right to privacy by requesting the contributor's snail mail address and phone number (!?!?!) and as such, is illegal in France (law Informatique et Liberté: http://www.cnil.fr/fileadmin/documents/en/Act78-17VA.pdf - See chapter II, article 6, paragraph 3). Note that such info is not only excessive for the purpose (in case of a legal dispute, an US judge can get my private address from the French justice, based on my IP address which my ISP will be legally tied to disclose on a judge's demand), but it is also unreliable and thus, perfectly useless (what about persons who move or simply change their ISP and thus their phone number ?). I will not sign such a CA... unless Linden Lab's employees all provide me with their own snail mail address and private phone numbers, LOL !!! Henri. Henri: I am simply curious and don't want to cause any argument or additional arguments about the matter, and I support everyone's rights to privacy. I just looked at http://www.cnil.fr/fileadmin/documents/en/Act78-17VA.pdf - See chapter II, article 6, paragraph 3 That reads as follows: 3° they shall be adequate, relevant and not excessive in relation to the purposes for which they are obtained and their further processing; I don't understand how that applies. The other question I would ask you: when you register any original written work for a copyright in France, don't you have to put in some kind of identifying information? Regards, Andromeda Quonset ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Draft update to the Contribution Agreement
On Mon, 07 Oct 2013 15:29:56 -0700, Andromeda Quonset wrote: Henri: I am simply curious and don't want to cause any argument or additional arguments about the matter, and I support everyone's rights to privacy. I just looked at http://www.cnil.fr/fileadmin/documents/en/Act78-17VA.pdf - See chapter II, article 6, paragraph 3 That reads as follows: 3° they shall be adequate, relevant and not excessive in relation to the purposes for which they are obtained and their further processing; I don't understand how that applies. The requested info (snail mail address and private phone number) are simply excessive in relation for the purpose (identifying an author: see below). Beside, that info is irrelevant to LL since it can change without them being notified (the author in question may move and/or change their phone number: mine changed 5 times in the last 10 years, due to lines being opened, then closed depending on my needs and moves, and to 2 ISP changes; I also already moved 3 times in 20 years). All what it results into is putting the author's RL data at risk of being outed on Internet and stalked in RL. The other question I would ask you: when you register any original written work for a copyright in France, don't you have to put in some kind of identifying information? The forename, family name and your signature are enough (normally complemented with your birthdate). Again, your address and phone number may change anytime and are perfectly *irrelevant*. I will also remind you how, back in 2007, LL got its customers' payment data stolen by pirates... The stolen file was allegedly crypted, but it doesn't change a fact: databases are vulnerable, and I'm not going to endanger my privacy on Internet, in any way. Call me paranoid if you wish, but my point is valid nonetheless. Henri. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
