Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Ponzu]

Maybe a good step would be to make the logs easy to get to from the viewer
itself.  A  button, or a menu item.  Then open out in the
default browser on they easy to read format.  That might stop term thousand
users from freaking out when they open the file using Notepad
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Ricky]

Typically Joe Everyguy, from my experience as an IT professional, will
just double-click (or single click depending on settings) the file
from Windows Explorer/Mac Finder.  (Us *NIX folks have our own way of
looking at things...)  if the file has the .xml extension it will work
correctly.  If we do find that a fair portion of users go the long
route of Open notepad, go to file>open, browse to the file, select,
and click the Open button, then we can simply leave a SGML comment up
near the top that says something to the effect of:



Ricky
Crons Stardust

On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 1:54 AM, Rob Nelson
 wrote:
>  This.  Say Joe Everyguy wants to look for a rather hot conversation he
> had with what he assumes was a very attractive-looking female
> yesterday.  With a text logfile, he just has to open the log in notepad
> and CTRL+F for "VerySexy Lady".  Since that was her display name at the
> time, it's included along with her real name (trucker.bob) and is
> therefore searchable. (Since the realname is included as well, it is
> also searchable.)
>
> With what I've seen of the LLSD log, he'd open it up, be presented with
> what he thinks is gibberish, and then close it.  If he tried to search
> for "VerySexy Lady", he wouldn't find anything because only the UUID is
> included.
>
> If the desire is to come up with a more easily parsed format for OH
> records, add an option to log to a non-LLSD XML file that is more easily
> transformed using XSL.  Something like:
>
> 
>  location="secondlife:///..." timestamp="Date/Time">STUFF
>  timestamp="Date/Time">What was said
>  timestamp="Date/Time">What was said
>  timestamp="Date/Time">What was said
> 
>
> Rob
>
> On 10/17/2010 1:34 AM, Lance Corrimal wrote:
>> Am Sonntag 17 Oktober 2010 schrieb Ricky:
>>> I agree, the XML notation is far from perfect (see some of my posts
>>> last year about the subject,) however I consider it better than
>>> either text or this almost-JSON notation for a variety of reasons,
>>> all laid out in https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23451 for
>>> ease of reference.
>>>
>>> Assuming that the order of fields is fixed, a fair assumption as
>>> LLSD requires it I believe, then the XSLT isn't so bad, and a
>>> prototype has already been made.
>>>
>>> On the subject of using other standard tools, such as
>>> grep/sed/awk/etc., I fully agree.  This is why I'd fight against
>>> any binary or compressed format.  However, no such proposal has
>>> been made.
>> Guys, keep one thing in mind:
>>
>> the average user has no inclination of "processing" the logfiles with
>> anything.
>>
>> The average user, at best, will open the logfiles in notepad to look
>> at them, and to find stuff like "what was the name of that place that
>> i heard about at that or that date".
>>
>> The average user runs windows, where tools such as grep/awk/sed are
>> not exactly common, either.
>>
>>
>> bye,
>> LC
>>
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-10-16, at 22:57, Ricky wrote:
> Assuming that the order of fields is fixed, a fair assumption as LLSD
> requires it I believe, then the XSLT isn't so bad, and a prototype has
> already been made.

That depends on the details of the XSL transform tool. Streaming tools preserve 
order but there's no requirement to do so.

> On the subject of using other standard tools, such as
> grep/sed/awk/etc., I fully agree.  This is why I'd fight against any
> binary or compressed format.

LLSD XML format breaks non-XML tools almost as badly as binary would. It's 
completely unacceptable.

The notation format, with a line break between messages, is the only format 
proposed so far that should even be considered.

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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Rob Nelson]

  This.  Say Joe Everyguy wants to look for a rather hot conversation he 
had with what he assumes was a very attractive-looking female 
yesterday.  With a text logfile, he just has to open the log in notepad 
and CTRL+F for "VerySexy Lady".  Since that was her display name at the 
time, it's included along with her real name (trucker.bob) and is 
therefore searchable. (Since the realname is included as well, it is 
also searchable.)

With what I've seen of the LLSD log, he'd open it up, be presented with 
what he thinks is gibberish, and then close it.  If he tried to search 
for "VerySexy Lady", he wouldn't find anything because only the UUID is 
included.

If the desire is to come up with a more easily parsed format for OH 
records, add an option to log to a non-LLSD XML file that is more easily 
transformed using XSL.  Something like:


STUFF
What was said
What was said
What was said


Rob

On 10/17/2010 1:34 AM, Lance Corrimal wrote:
> Am Sonntag 17 Oktober 2010 schrieb Ricky:
>> I agree, the XML notation is far from perfect (see some of my posts
>> last year about the subject,) however I consider it better than
>> either text or this almost-JSON notation for a variety of reasons,
>> all laid out in https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23451 for
>> ease of reference.
>>
>> Assuming that the order of fields is fixed, a fair assumption as
>> LLSD requires it I believe, then the XSLT isn't so bad, and a
>> prototype has already been made.
>>
>> On the subject of using other standard tools, such as
>> grep/sed/awk/etc., I fully agree.  This is why I'd fight against
>> any binary or compressed format.  However, no such proposal has
>> been made.
> Guys, keep one thing in mind:
>
> the average user has no inclination of "processing" the logfiles with
> anything.
>
> The average user, at best, will open the logfiles in notepad to look
> at them, and to find stuff like "what was the name of that place that
> i heard about at that or that date".
>
> The average user runs windows, where tools such as grep/awk/sed are
> not exactly common, either.
>
>
> bye,
> LC
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Marc Adored]

Lance check the jira if the file ext is changes to xml it will
automatically open in IE,Firefox,Chrome,Whatever Browser they have as
default and it will display styled to look just like the plain text
old versions only underneath it will contain much more information.
Those stylesheets can also be highly dynamic to include/exclude
whatever information about each line of log with javascript

On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 4:34 AM, Lance Corrimal
 wrote:
> Am Sonntag 17 Oktober 2010 schrieb Ricky:
>> I agree, the XML notation is far from perfect (see some of my posts
>> last year about the subject,) however I consider it better than
>> either text or this almost-JSON notation for a variety of reasons,
>> all laid out in https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23451 for
>> ease of reference.
>>
>> Assuming that the order of fields is fixed, a fair assumption as
>> LLSD requires it I believe, then the XSLT isn't so bad, and a
>> prototype has already been made.
>>
>> On the subject of using other standard tools, such as
>> grep/sed/awk/etc., I fully agree.  This is why I'd fight against
>> any binary or compressed format.  However, no such proposal has
>> been made.
>
> Guys, keep one thing in mind:
>
> the average user has no inclination of "processing" the logfiles with
> anything.
>
> The average user, at best, will open the logfiles in notepad to look
> at them, and to find stuff like "what was the name of that place that
> i heard about at that or that date".
>
> The average user runs windows, where tools such as grep/awk/sed are
> not exactly common, either.
>
>
> bye,
> LC
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Lance Corrimal]

Am Sonntag 17 Oktober 2010 schrieb Ricky:
> I agree, the XML notation is far from perfect (see some of my posts
> last year about the subject,) however I consider it better than
> either text or this almost-JSON notation for a variety of reasons,
> all laid out in https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23451 for
> ease of reference.
> 
> Assuming that the order of fields is fixed, a fair assumption as
> LLSD requires it I believe, then the XSLT isn't so bad, and a
> prototype has already been made.
> 
> On the subject of using other standard tools, such as
> grep/sed/awk/etc., I fully agree.  This is why I'd fight against
> any binary or compressed format.  However, no such proposal has
> been made.

Guys, keep one thing in mind:

the average user has no inclination of "processing" the logfiles with 
anything.

The average user, at best, will open the logfiles in notepad to look 
at them, and to find stuff like "what was the name of that place that 
i heard about at that or that date".

The average user runs windows, where tools such as grep/awk/sed are 
not exactly common, either.


bye,
LC

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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Ricky]

I agree, the XML notation is far from perfect (see some of my posts
last year about the subject,) however I consider it better than either
text or this almost-JSON notation for a variety of reasons, all laid
out in https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23451 for ease of
reference.

Assuming that the order of fields is fixed, a fair assumption as LLSD
requires it I believe, then the XSLT isn't so bad, and a prototype has
already been made.

On the subject of using other standard tools, such as
grep/sed/awk/etc., I fully agree.  This is why I'd fight against any
binary or compressed format.  However, no such proposal has been made.
 All formats so far don't have any less information in any less
accessible of a format than the text files.  If the file doesn't have
proper line breaks, then that's another issue.  Albeit one fairly
easily resolved by passing it through sed with the right expression.

Ricky
Cron Stardust

On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Argent Stonecutter
 wrote:
>
> On 2010-10-15, at 16:36, Ricky wrote:
>> All that's needed is a linked XSL stylesheet to make it just as easy
>> to read as the text files were.
>
> 1. It's not in XML, it's in notation format. This is a good thing, because...
> 2. LLSD is really badly designed from the point of XSL transformations. 
> Instead of having the type and value as attributes, they have them in 
> completely separate tags, so the ordering of tags matters so you have to use 
> streaming XSLT.
> 3. There are more tools people use for browsing and reading log files than 
> text editors. If you can't grep it, for example, it's junk.
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-10-15, at 16:36, Ricky wrote:
> All that's needed is a linked XSL stylesheet to make it just as easy
> to read as the text files were.

1. It's not in XML, it's in notation format. This is a good thing, because...
2. LLSD is really badly designed from the point of XSL transformations. Instead 
of having the type and value as attributes, they have them in completely 
separate tags, so the ordering of tags matters so you have to use streaming 
XSLT.
3. There are more tools people use for browsing and reading log files than text 
editors. If you can't grep it, for example, it's junk.
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)]

 On 2010-10-15 19:22, Boroondas Gupte wrote:

On 10/16/2010 12:59 AM, SuezanneC Baskerville wrote:
What happened to that jira issue? It appears to have been moved to 
SEC or something like that.
It has been moved to DN-179 
. (I guess "DN" stands for 
"display names".) Why we can't see that jira project although display 
names has been on Aditi for some while now, I don't know.


The fact that it became invisible when assigned to the development team 
is a configuration error.  I've put in a request for a fix, and expect 
that it will be done in the next few days (the person who normally makes 
such changes returns from vacation on Monday, I think).


As Boroondas noted, the part of that issue that broke the creation of 
personal chat logs has been fixed and integrated into the current 
development viewer.


The issue of whether or not to create .txt and/or .llsd logs is being 
tracked separately:


https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22940

Please don't add comments to that issue that amount to just agreeing 
with or disagreeing with one or another of the points already made there 
(this list is an ok place for that, if you feel you must do it 
somewhere).  The Jira tracker isn't a forum, and comments like that 
don't add much value.  The various points of view are pretty well 
represented there now.

This issue won't be dropped... watch this thread and the issue for updates.

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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Rob Nelson]

 I CONTRIBUTED SOMETHING ;_;

Rob

On 10/15/2010 4:23 PM, Leyla Linden wrote:

The only difference is that
they'll include both display names and usernames, much like Rob
Nelson suggested.

- Leyla


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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Bryon Ruxton]

Hi Leyla,

Glad to keep the current text format if there are no real goals for changing
it.
For one that would have broken the integrity of current log files.

On that point I would actually love to know if the filenames of IM logs is
to
eventually change, from say First Last.txt to first.last.txt (for legacy
names).

Please consider that one carefully, as that would require us to change
all file names of existing logs to avoid new sets of files being created
on top existing log files, when starting using that viewer's code, should it
change.
i.e. Being able to keep the IM history for each Agent or Group name in one
unique file is important here.

And Sythos¹s suggestion would be correct for separate IM logs specifically,
for avoiding
redundant repetition of the username unnecessarily for each line.

On 10/15/10 4:23 PM, "Leyla Linden"  wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> The chat log format change wasinitially done so we could easily add 
> more information in the chat logs.  Now that the display name can 
> change it's nice to have more data like an agent_id that can be hooked
> up to inspectors.
> 
> But seeing as how many people rely on easily readable text chat logs, 
> we're going to revert them back to text files.  The only difference is that 
> they'll include both display names and usernames, much like Rob
> Nelson suggested. 
> 
> - Leyla
> 
> 
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Ricky]

I'd have to say that future proof and archival safe are two separate
qualities.  Logs might need to be archived, but 90% (guessing) of the
content is fluff only useful for a couple of months to a year at the
most.  However, the tools that read them (such as converters /
archivers) have a much longer lifespan.  If you do want 50+ year
archival quality, then use a trivial exporter to convert to the ASCII
format of your choice when you run your archival process and send it
to paper punch tape.  (I'm not being insulting here: paper punch tape
is THE most long-lived digital format I've ever met.)

As to the stylesheet: I propose that it be installed with the viewer
and be located in the same folder as the logs.  This way it can be
archived along with the files by your favorite archival/storage tools.

And viewing the file is likewise not an issue.  Every modern computer
already has a browser installed and in use.  And if you still needed
to read the log from a GUI-less computer, the logs are still ASCII.
The tags surrounding the data are just helpful to the computer.  This
isn't a binary format we are discussing; it's a formatted text file.
Formatted in a way that makes it easier for a computer to read while
still being useful to the humans involved.

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Jamey Fletcher  wrote:
> Marc Adored wrote:
>
>> Download a stylesheet? The file would contain a link directly to the
>> stylesheet and would be automatically loaded. Also I'm not sure about
>> your operating system but I'm pretty sure the file extension already
>> opens in your default browser and once the stylesheet is specified it
>> will look just like a plain text log file just loaded in your browser
>> through the same process and opening a text file. The only fear here
>> is change and the unknown. It's not going to be any harder to read the
>> logs just different. Sorry like Ricky said its more future proof and
>> thats all there is too it the only mistake was not setting this up
>> earlier so the change didn't frighten so many people
>
> Let's see...  Future Proof.
>
> Program to read and process a text file - anywhere from a few hundred
> bytes, to a small OS-wannabe like emacs.  Program to process LLSD and
> display it - several hundred K minimum, oh, and *REQUIRED* network
> connection live so the referenced DTD can be retrieved - more like a
> program that is ALREADY being considered an OS-replacement, such as
> Internet Explorer, Mozilla, Safari, or Chrome, each several dozen megabytes.
>
> Ok, so let's look at a project that's *GOT* a nice long history already
> (some 30+ years) and is *VERY* interested in future-proofing.  Minor
> project, really, called Project Gutenberg.  Here's what *they* have to
> say on the subject:
> http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Gutenberg:General_FAQ#G.17._Why_is_Project_Gutenberg_so_set_on_using_Plain_Vanilla_ASCII.3F
>
> When you really, really, *REALLY* want it to be readable - ASCII
> plaintext is the way to go.
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Marc Adored]

>
> Let's see...  Future Proof.
>
> Program to read and process a text file - anywhere from a few hundred
> bytes, to a small OS-wannabe like emacs.  Program to process LLSD and
> display it - several hundred K minimum, oh, and *REQUIRED* network
> connection live so the referenced DTD can be retrieved -

And why would a network connection be required for a local DTD? also
why else would you need to look at a log unless it was for something
you where doing online? So even IF it was a remote DTD it wouldn't
matter. Who here disconnects their internet to look at logs? What
paranoia provokes that?

> more like a
> program that is ALREADY being considered an OS-replacement, such as
> Internet Explorer, Mozilla, Safari, or Chrome, each several dozen megabytes.
>

Well you can exaggerate the problem all you want but most applications
now run in a browser anyways and more then likely they will have their
browser already open whether its posting logs to a blog or to the wiki
or responding to a forum post guess what the browser is already open
hmm don't see a problem

> Ok, so let's look at a project that's *GOT* a nice long history already
> (some 30+ years) and is *VERY* interested in future-proofing.  Minor
> project, really, called Project Gutenberg.  Here's what *they* have to
> say on the subject:
> http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Gutenberg:General_FAQ#G.17._Why_is_Project_Gutenberg_so_set_on_using_Plain_Vanilla_ASCII.3F
>
> When you really, really, *REALLY* want it to be readable - ASCII
> plaintext is the way to go.

It's not really about readable its about future proofing and linking a
variable name with a constant name and adding features that some may
find useful. Like I said most probably wont even notice the change and
some will probably even like the fact that it opens in a program
probably already open.

Anyways all of this means nothing anymore because all of the
complaining made them reverse it so none of it matters anymore but I
felt the need to respond because once again someone took what was
wrote made assumptions(incorrect ones at that) about what was said and
responded.

I understand the reasons people are mad I hate change too. The only
difference is I don't instantly discount change and start fighting
against it. Its the same as when I talk to someone and I say something
about viewer 2 and they say "oh I don't like viewer 2". I ask why and
they say "oh I used it for about 2 seconds and switched back" that
comment alone completely discredits anything else that comes out of
that persons mouth about the viewer. They have no right speaking
anything about it when they didn't give it a fair chance. Just like
this change it didn't even get finished yet before people went nuts
about it.


I suppose using log formats like this:

[44/44/ 10:10:10] Display Name(real.name): something here

will be fine for reading.
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Jamey Fletcher]

Marc Adored wrote:

> Download a stylesheet? The file would contain a link directly to the
> stylesheet and would be automatically loaded. Also I'm not sure about
> your operating system but I'm pretty sure the file extension already
> opens in your default browser and once the stylesheet is specified it
> will look just like a plain text log file just loaded in your browser
> through the same process and opening a text file. The only fear here
> is change and the unknown. It's not going to be any harder to read the
> logs just different. Sorry like Ricky said its more future proof and
> thats all there is too it the only mistake was not setting this up
> earlier so the change didn't frighten so many people

Let's see...  Future Proof.

Program to read and process a text file - anywhere from a few hundred 
bytes, to a small OS-wannabe like emacs.  Program to process LLSD and 
display it - several hundred K minimum, oh, and *REQUIRED* network 
connection live so the referenced DTD can be retrieved - more like a 
program that is ALREADY being considered an OS-replacement, such as 
Internet Explorer, Mozilla, Safari, or Chrome, each several dozen megabytes.

Ok, so let's look at a project that's *GOT* a nice long history already 
(some 30+ years) and is *VERY* interested in future-proofing.  Minor 
project, really, called Project Gutenberg.  Here's what *they* have to 
say on the subject: 
http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Gutenberg:General_FAQ#G.17._Why_is_Project_Gutenberg_so_set_on_using_Plain_Vanilla_ASCII.3F

When you really, really, *REALLY* want it to be readable - ASCII 
plaintext is the way to go.
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Sythos]

On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 16:23:27 -0700
Leyla Linden  wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> The chat log format change wasinitially done so we could easily add
> more information in the chat logs.  Now that the display name can
> change it's nice to have more data like an agent_id that can be hooked
> up to inspectors.
> 
> But seeing as how many people rely on easily readable text chat logs,
> we're going to revert them back to text files.  The only difference
> is that they'll include both display names and usernames, much like
> Rob Nelson suggested.

a nice way is use "realname.txt" as file format, and inside use
"displayed name" (if there is one), so inside logs there is a track of
displayed name too (about how KV work now)
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Marc Adored]

Oh well so much for progress :( Is linden labs going to provide a tool
to convert current llsd logs back to plaintext?

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Leyla Linden  wrote:
> Hi All,
> The chat log format change wasinitially done so we could easily add
> more information in the chat logs.  Now that the display name can
> change it's nice to have more data like an agent_id that can be hooked
> up to inspectors.
> But seeing as how many people rely on easily readable text chat logs,
> we're going to revert them back to text files.  The only difference is that
> they'll include both display names and usernames, much like Rob
> Nelson suggested.
> - Leyla
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Leyla Linden]

Hi All,

The chat log format change wasinitially done so we could easily add
more information in the chat logs.  Now that the display name can
change it's nice to have more data like an agent_id that can be hooked
up to inspectors.

But seeing as how many people rely on easily readable text chat logs,
we're going to revert them back to text files.  The only difference is that
they'll include both display names and usernames, much like Rob
Nelson suggested.

- Leyla
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Boroondas Gupte]

 On 10/16/2010 12:59 AM, SuezanneC Baskerville wrote:
> What happened to that jira issue? It appears to have been moved to SEC
> or something like that.
It has been moved to DN-179 .
(I guess "DN" stands for "display names".) Why we can't see that jira
project although display names has been on Aditi for some while now, I
don't know.

Cheers,
Boroondas
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Yoz Grahame]

On 15 October 2010 15:44, Dave Booth  wrote:

>  On 10/15/2010 17:38, Marc Adored wrote:
>
> 
>
> Bollocks.
>

Thanks for providing a succinct example of what really isn't OK around here.

Disagreement: Fine.
Passionate argument: Fine, as long as it's civil and reasoned.
Confrontational rudeness with no redeeming value: Out Of Order.

If it's possible to provide actual reasoned argument in a civil tone, we
would welcome it.
If not, we would welcome (and assist) your departure.

-- Yoz Linden
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Marc Adored]

Which part is bullocks? The accurate description of how things will
change or the accurate description of how things will change? Fact is
it's not going to change much for anyone when its finished (assuming
they are going to provide a stylesheet for it). You will still simply
double click the file to open it and view the log and you can search
the same way you did before with ctrl+f or whatever your os's normal
search keys are. nothing changes but the program it opens in. If for
some reason it is not associated with your browser simply double
clicking the file will ask you what to open it with and you just tell
it to remember that and your back to normal.

So as I see it no disadvantage outside of a slightly larger file size.
But a big advantage on the other side. Its a easier format to "parse"
which will allow you to see it and search it easier and faster in
whatever program that is made to parse the files either built into the
viewer or an external log management system.

Above all that a change like this had to happen. There was no way
around it. With Display names being variables now it had to happen.
They had to have a way to link the variable to the constant... This to
them and the more i read to me seemed like the best solution. Its
already a built in format the viewer already uses and is very
extensible when it comes to adding/removing things and styling.
Essentially if they load a local stylesheet that would allow you to
modify the stylesheet to make your logs look the way you want them
like changing a theme. I'm sure this idea will be used for an internal
log viewer if its added.

All I am really saying is wait for it. It is beta and doesn't seemed
to be finished yet. To people who know what is capable with the format
know what might be planned. I know for someone who doesn't know about
the format or anything outside of plaintext it might be garbage right
now but the potential is huge

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 6:44 PM, Dave Booth  wrote:
>  On 10/15/2010 17:38, Marc Adored wrote:
>
> 
>
> Bollocks.
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[SuezanneC Baskerville]

What happened to that jira issue? It appears to have been moved to SEC or
something like that.

On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 11:57 PM, WolfPup Lowenhar
wrote:

>  Actualy the file extension change is only to chat and IM logs. And I have
> already found a bug in the code!
>
>
>
> https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23437
>
>
>
> the above jira is the bug and it is not being cause be my file name
> modification as the mod is working fine for group IM’s.
>
>
>
> *From:* opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com [mailto:
> opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] *On Behalf Of *Jamey Fletcher
> *Sent:* Friday, October 15, 2010 12:31 AM
> *To:* opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
> *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!
>
>
>
> WolfPup Lowenhar wrote:
> > Well folks my night is going to be interesting as now I have to hard
> > merge my logging code to the new code as there are changes to the way
> > logs are EVEN saved .llsd instead of .txt which is going to make things
> > interesting for me as now I have to change my history look up code for
> > the new file extension and maybe even the name formatting itself!
>
> Is that the crash & console logs, or the chat logs too?
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>
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> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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-- 
v i r t u a l   w o r l d   e n t h u s i a s t
-- http://www.google.com/profiles/s u e z a n n e --
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Dave Booth]

  On 10/15/2010 17:38, Marc Adored wrote:



Bollocks.
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Marc Adored]

Download a stylesheet? The file would contain a link directly to the
stylesheet and would be automatically loaded. Also I'm not sure about
your operating system but I'm pretty sure the file extension already
opens in your default browser and once the stylesheet is specified it
will look just like a plain text log file just loaded in your browser
through the same process and opening a text file. The only fear here
is change and the unknown. It's not going to be any harder to read the
logs just different. Sorry like Ricky said its more future proof and
thats all there is too it the only mistake was not setting this up
earlier so the change didn't frighten so many people

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Erin Mallory
 wrote:
> Actually its a bad move.  For one: logs should NOT have fields.  The display
> name used at the time should NOT change in the logs once someone changes
> their user name, which appears to be what this file format does.
> TWO, to require you users to download a style sheet and use a web browser to
> view logs is just asininely retarded.  Users who need their logs regularly
> need to access them FAST and in an EASY format to read and print.
> This is another case where LL took a good idea and implemented it so badly
> as to make it a total fail.   This really needs to be undone.
>
>> From: kf6...@gmail.com
>> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 15:23:49 -0700
>> To: labrat...@gmail.com
>> CC: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
>> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!
>>
>> Actually, IMHO that was the catalyst, not the reason. The reason was
>> that there needs to be a pile of information about the posts. The log
>> files just don't contain enough information, especially with Display
>> Names. With an expanded format, such as any of LLSD/XML/JSON, you can
>> associate all the needed information in an expandable, fairly
>> future-proof format. Text files just don't cut it. Named fields, as
>> given by any of the above formats, allow adding fields without
>> breaking any tools made for the new format. Text doesn't. Neither any
>> of the common flavors of CSV. It's just sad that the files weren't in
>> one of these formats a long time ago. Something I'm going to take to
>> heart as I develop games and tools.
>>
>> Now, as to LLSD over any of the others. The reason is ease of coding.
>> LLSD is something already used, and fairly well-defined, in the
>> viewer. A custom XML or JSON format would take defining the syntax,
>> creating a standard, etc. LLSD is already there, and well known. The
>> functions for converting to it are all already in place. As such it's
>> less bloat to the viewer to use that format. In fact, depending on
>> how the structure exists in the code (I haven't looked,) it may have
>> even been easier to export as LLSD than the original text.
>>
>> Adding an option WOULD have been bloat. if you want text in the
>> original style, JSON, Wikicode, or prettified HTML, all it takes is
>> running the log file though the proper XSL stylesheet using your
>> favorite XML processing tool. Pretty trivial. Such tools could even
>> be built into the viewer, but I don't see the need. Those who do,
>> feel free to add to a TPV, or provide a solid, reasoned argument for
>> such. Or you can get it added to a TPV, if the author finds it useful
>> to them.
>>
>> Over-all I think this was a good move: the files are easier to write
>> lexers for as we can leverage existing parsers, and they are still not
>> too hard to read from a human standpoint - assuming useful line breaks
>> in the files.
>>
>> Ricky
>> Cron Stardust
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Harold Brown  wrote:
>> > This is another change that a very small percentage of people wanted
>> > that was made without consideration to how it affects the larger
>> > community.
>> >
>> > The PROPER change should have been to add an OPTION to log to .llsd
>> > for those people making log files of Office Hours parsing log files
>> > for posting to the wiki was the reason for this change.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Ricky  wrote:
>> >> Besides, back on Sept 2nd this was already discussed, and plans
>> >> invented.
>> >>  https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2010-September/003162.html
>> >>
>> >> All that's needed is a linked XSL stylesheet to make it just as easy
>> >> to read as the text files were.  Just using a web browser instead of a
>> >> text editor.  Josh s

Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Erin Mallory]

Actually its a bad move.  For one: logs should NOT have fields.  The display 
name used at the time should NOT change in the logs once someone changes their 
user name, which appears to be what this file format does.
TWO, to require you users to download a style sheet and use a web browser to 
view logs is just asininely retarded.  Users who need their logs regularly need 
to access them FAST and in an EASY format to read and print.
This is another case where LL took a good idea and implemented it so badly as 
to make it a total fail.   This really needs to be undone. 

> From: kf6...@gmail.com
> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 15:23:49 -0700
> To: labrat...@gmail.com
> CC: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!
> 
> Actually, IMHO that was the catalyst, not the reason.  The reason was
> that there needs to be a pile of information about the posts.  The log
> files just don't contain enough information, especially with Display
> Names.  With an expanded format, such as any of LLSD/XML/JSON, you can
> associate all the needed information in an expandable, fairly
> future-proof format.  Text files just don't cut it.  Named fields, as
> given by any of the above formats, allow adding fields without
> breaking any tools made for the new format.  Text doesn't. Neither any
> of the common flavors of CSV.  It's just sad that the files weren't in
> one of these formats a long time ago.  Something I'm going to take to
> heart as I develop games and tools.
> 
> Now, as to LLSD over any of the others.  The reason is ease of coding.
>  LLSD is something already used, and fairly well-defined, in the
> viewer.  A custom XML or JSON format would take defining the syntax,
> creating a standard, etc.  LLSD is already there, and well known.  The
> functions for converting to it are all already in place.  As such it's
> less bloat to the viewer to use that format.  In fact, depending on
> how the structure exists in the code (I haven't looked,) it may have
> even been easier to export as LLSD than the original text.
> 
> Adding an option WOULD have been bloat.  if you want text in the
> original style, JSON, Wikicode, or prettified HTML, all it takes is
> running the log file though the proper XSL stylesheet using your
> favorite XML processing tool.  Pretty trivial.  Such tools could even
> be built into the viewer, but I don't see the need.  Those who do,
> feel free to add to a TPV, or provide a solid, reasoned argument for
> such.  Or you can get it added to a TPV, if the author finds it useful
> to them.
> 
> Over-all I think this was a good move: the files are easier to write
> lexers for as we can leverage existing parsers, and they are still not
> too hard to read from a human standpoint - assuming useful line breaks
> in the files.
> 
> Ricky
> Cron Stardust
> 
> 
> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Harold Brown  wrote:
> > This is another change that a very small percentage of people wanted
> > that was made without consideration to how it affects the larger
> > community.
> >
> > The PROPER change should have been to add an OPTION to log to .llsd
> > for those people making log files of Office Hours parsing log files
> > for posting to the wiki was the reason for this change.
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Ricky  wrote:
> >> Besides, back on Sept 2nd this was already discussed, and plans
> >> invented.  
> >> https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2010-September/003162.html
> >>
> >> All that's needed is a linked XSL stylesheet to make it just as easy
> >> to read as the text files were.  Just using a web browser instead of a
> >> text editor.  Josh solved the XSL in this response:
> >> https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2010-September/003164.html
> >>
> >> Tis is actually a good step.  Admittedly the file size might jump, but
> >> I'm pretty sure each of us has the drive space, and appending to a
> >> file is trivial.  I do believe it can be done in near constant time,
> >> relative to the file size.
> >>
> >> Ricky
> >> Cron Stardust
> >>
> >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Marc Adored  
> >> wrote:
> >>> All this panic did anyone stop to think that maybe this is part of a
> >>> bigger plan? The first thing that cam to mind for me was maybe it
> >>> makes it easier for programs to format them and probably better for
> >>> searching and stuff (withen a program). Also maybe there are plans for
> >>> a built in log viewer coming soon? I think that th

Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Erin Mallory]

Speak for yourself.  My drives are only 250gig and 500 gig.  Even with having 
lost 3 years wroth of logs, in txt format, my log folders are ALREADY almost 
half a gig.  That's in just 3 months. ...  

> From: kf6...@gmail.com
> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 14:36:06 -0700
> To: m...@inworlddesigns.com
> CC: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!
> 
> Besides, back on Sept 2nd this was already discussed, and plans
> invented.  
> https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2010-September/003162.html
> 
> All that's needed is a linked XSL stylesheet to make it just as easy
> to read as the text files were.  Just using a web browser instead of a
> text editor.  Josh solved the XSL in this response:
> https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2010-September/003164.html
> 
> Tis is actually a good step.  Admittedly the file size might jump, but
> I'm pretty sure each of us has the drive space, and appending to a
> file is trivial.  I do believe it can be done in near constant time,
> relative to the file size.
> 
> Ricky
> Cron Stardust
> 
> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Marc Adored  wrote:
> > All this panic did anyone stop to think that maybe this is part of a
> > bigger plan? The first thing that cam to mind for me was maybe it
> > makes it easier for programs to format them and probably better for
> > searching and stuff (withen a program). Also maybe there are plans for
> > a built in log viewer coming soon? I think that this format is less
> > then ideal but then again I have no idea what might be planned and why
> > this specific format was chosen
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Garmin Kawaguichi
> >  wrote:
> >> It was a JIRA from Samia Bechir
> >> https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22940 dated from September 10
> >> You can vote for it
> >>
> >> GCI
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> - Original Message -
> >> From: WolfPup Lowenhar
> >> To: OpenSource Mailing List
> >> Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 2:58 AM
> >> Subject: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!
> >>
> >> Well folks my night is going to be interesting as now I have to hard merge
> >> my logging code to the new code as there are changes to the way logs are
> >> EVEN saved .llsd instead of .txt which is going to make things interesting
> >> for me as now I have to change my history look up code for the new file
> >> extension and maybe even the name formatting itself!
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
> >> privileges
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Ricky]

Actually, IMHO that was the catalyst, not the reason.  The reason was
that there needs to be a pile of information about the posts.  The log
files just don't contain enough information, especially with Display
Names.  With an expanded format, such as any of LLSD/XML/JSON, you can
associate all the needed information in an expandable, fairly
future-proof format.  Text files just don't cut it.  Named fields, as
given by any of the above formats, allow adding fields without
breaking any tools made for the new format.  Text doesn't. Neither any
of the common flavors of CSV.  It's just sad that the files weren't in
one of these formats a long time ago.  Something I'm going to take to
heart as I develop games and tools.

Now, as to LLSD over any of the others.  The reason is ease of coding.
 LLSD is something already used, and fairly well-defined, in the
viewer.  A custom XML or JSON format would take defining the syntax,
creating a standard, etc.  LLSD is already there, and well known.  The
functions for converting to it are all already in place.  As such it's
less bloat to the viewer to use that format.  In fact, depending on
how the structure exists in the code (I haven't looked,) it may have
even been easier to export as LLSD than the original text.

Adding an option WOULD have been bloat.  if you want text in the
original style, JSON, Wikicode, or prettified HTML, all it takes is
running the log file though the proper XSL stylesheet using your
favorite XML processing tool.  Pretty trivial.  Such tools could even
be built into the viewer, but I don't see the need.  Those who do,
feel free to add to a TPV, or provide a solid, reasoned argument for
such.  Or you can get it added to a TPV, if the author finds it useful
to them.

Over-all I think this was a good move: the files are easier to write
lexers for as we can leverage existing parsers, and they are still not
too hard to read from a human standpoint - assuming useful line breaks
in the files.

Ricky
Cron Stardust


On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Harold Brown  wrote:
> This is another change that a very small percentage of people wanted
> that was made without consideration to how it affects the larger
> community.
>
> The PROPER change should have been to add an OPTION to log to .llsd
> for those people making log files of Office Hours parsing log files
> for posting to the wiki was the reason for this change.
>
> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Ricky  wrote:
>> Besides, back on Sept 2nd this was already discussed, and plans
>> invented.  
>> https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2010-September/003162.html
>>
>> All that's needed is a linked XSL stylesheet to make it just as easy
>> to read as the text files were.  Just using a web browser instead of a
>> text editor.  Josh solved the XSL in this response:
>> https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2010-September/003164.html
>>
>> Tis is actually a good step.  Admittedly the file size might jump, but
>> I'm pretty sure each of us has the drive space, and appending to a
>> file is trivial.  I do believe it can be done in near constant time,
>> relative to the file size.
>>
>> Ricky
>> Cron Stardust
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Marc Adored  wrote:
>>> All this panic did anyone stop to think that maybe this is part of a
>>> bigger plan? The first thing that cam to mind for me was maybe it
>>> makes it easier for programs to format them and probably better for
>>> searching and stuff (withen a program). Also maybe there are plans for
>>> a built in log viewer coming soon? I think that this format is less
>>> then ideal but then again I have no idea what might be planned and why
>>> this specific format was chosen
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Garmin Kawaguichi
>>>  wrote:
>>>> It was a JIRA from Samia Bechir
>>>> https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22940 dated from September 10
>>>> You can vote for it
>>>>
>>>> GCI
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: WolfPup Lowenhar
>>>> To: OpenSource Mailing List
>>>> Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 2:58 AM
>>>> Subject: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!
>>>>
>>>> Well folks my night is going to be interesting as now I have to hard merge
>>>> my logging code to the new code as there are changes to the way logs are
>>>> EVEN saved .llsd instead of .txt which is going to make things interesting
>>>> for me as now I have to change my history look up code for the new file
>>>> e

Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Harold Brown]

This is another change that a very small percentage of people wanted
that was made without consideration to how it affects the larger
community.

The PROPER change should have been to add an OPTION to log to .llsd
for those people making log files of Office Hours parsing log files
for posting to the wiki was the reason for this change.

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Ricky  wrote:
> Besides, back on Sept 2nd this was already discussed, and plans
> invented.  
> https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2010-September/003162.html
>
> All that's needed is a linked XSL stylesheet to make it just as easy
> to read as the text files were.  Just using a web browser instead of a
> text editor.  Josh solved the XSL in this response:
> https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2010-September/003164.html
>
> Tis is actually a good step.  Admittedly the file size might jump, but
> I'm pretty sure each of us has the drive space, and appending to a
> file is trivial.  I do believe it can be done in near constant time,
> relative to the file size.
>
> Ricky
> Cron Stardust
>
> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Marc Adored  wrote:
>> All this panic did anyone stop to think that maybe this is part of a
>> bigger plan? The first thing that cam to mind for me was maybe it
>> makes it easier for programs to format them and probably better for
>> searching and stuff (withen a program). Also maybe there are plans for
>> a built in log viewer coming soon? I think that this format is less
>> then ideal but then again I have no idea what might be planned and why
>> this specific format was chosen
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Garmin Kawaguichi
>>  wrote:
>>> It was a JIRA from Samia Bechir
>>> https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22940 dated from September 10
>>> You can vote for it
>>>
>>> GCI
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: WolfPup Lowenhar
>>> To: OpenSource Mailing List
>>> Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 2:58 AM
>>> Subject: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!
>>>
>>> Well folks my night is going to be interesting as now I have to hard merge
>>> my logging code to the new code as there are changes to the way logs are
>>> EVEN saved .llsd instead of .txt which is going to make things interesting
>>> for me as now I have to change my history look up code for the new file
>>> extension and maybe even the name formatting itself!
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
>>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
>>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
>>> privileges
>>>
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>>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Ricky]

Besides, back on Sept 2nd this was already discussed, and plans
invented.  
https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2010-September/003162.html

All that's needed is a linked XSL stylesheet to make it just as easy
to read as the text files were.  Just using a web browser instead of a
text editor.  Josh solved the XSL in this response:
https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2010-September/003164.html

Tis is actually a good step.  Admittedly the file size might jump, but
I'm pretty sure each of us has the drive space, and appending to a
file is trivial.  I do believe it can be done in near constant time,
relative to the file size.

Ricky
Cron Stardust

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Marc Adored  wrote:
> All this panic did anyone stop to think that maybe this is part of a
> bigger plan? The first thing that cam to mind for me was maybe it
> makes it easier for programs to format them and probably better for
> searching and stuff (withen a program). Also maybe there are plans for
> a built in log viewer coming soon? I think that this format is less
> then ideal but then again I have no idea what might be planned and why
> this specific format was chosen
>
> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Garmin Kawaguichi
>  wrote:
>> It was a JIRA from Samia Bechir
>> https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22940 dated from September 10
>> You can vote for it
>>
>> GCI
>>
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: WolfPup Lowenhar
>> To: OpenSource Mailing List
>> Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 2:58 AM
>> Subject: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!
>>
>> Well folks my night is going to be interesting as now I have to hard merge
>> my logging code to the new code as there are changes to the way logs are
>> EVEN saved .llsd instead of .txt which is going to make things interesting
>> for me as now I have to change my history look up code for the new file
>> extension and maybe even the name formatting itself!
>>
>> 
>>
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Marc Adored]

All this panic did anyone stop to think that maybe this is part of a
bigger plan? The first thing that cam to mind for me was maybe it
makes it easier for programs to format them and probably better for
searching and stuff (withen a program). Also maybe there are plans for
a built in log viewer coming soon? I think that this format is less
then ideal but then again I have no idea what might be planned and why
this specific format was chosen

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Garmin Kawaguichi
 wrote:
> It was a JIRA from Samia Bechir
> https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22940 dated from September 10
> You can vote for it
>
> GCI
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: WolfPup Lowenhar
> To: OpenSource Mailing List
> Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 2:58 AM
> Subject: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!
>
> Well folks my night is going to be interesting as now I have to hard merge
> my logging code to the new code as there are changes to the way logs are
> EVEN saved .llsd instead of .txt which is going to make things interesting
> for me as now I have to change my history look up code for the new file
> extension and maybe even the name formatting itself!
>
> 
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Garmin Kawaguichi]

It was a JIRA from Samia Bechir https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22940 
dated from September 10
You can vote for it

GCI


  - Original Message - 
  From: WolfPup Lowenhar 
  To: OpenSource Mailing List 
  Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 2:58 AM
  Subject: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!


  Well folks my night is going to be interesting as now I have to hard merge my 
logging code to the new code as there are changes to the way logs are EVEN 
saved .llsd instead of .txt which is going to make things interesting for me as 
now I have to change my history look up code for the new file extension and 
maybe even the name formatting itself!



--


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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[leliel]

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 6:57 AM, Daniel  wrote:
>  Apparently you don't chat much, mine is ten times larger over the same
> period.

I only logged IMs for two years.

So my chat.txt file is 15409876 bytes and 265570 lines which gives me
an average message size of 58 bytes. The 115 bytes for llsd would be
~66% over head per line which is a bit excessive (that's sarcasm).

Just to be clear I think this is a stupid change. I'm arguing for it
because so many people were screaming the sky was falling without
backing it up with hard numbers or even a user story, which has now
been provided.
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Daniel]

  Apparently you don't chat much, mine is ten times larger over the same 
period.

On 10/15/2010 7:24 AM, opensource-dev-requ...@lists.secondlife.com wrote:
> My log folder is a whopping 35MB after almost 4 years.

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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[leliel]

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 5:29 AM, Carlo Wood  wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 04:47:21AM -0700, leliel wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:38 AM, Carlo Wood  wrote:
>> > I was hoping that log files are updated very
>> > frequently, so that if I crash I don't lose
>> > text. But writing several megabytes to disk
>> > every line of chat seems unfeasible.
>>
>> It's 115 bytes + display name + message per line. Just where are these
>> several megabytes coming from?
>
> -rw-r--r-- 1 carlo carlo 60282480 Sep 28 00:30 chat.txt
>
> That is 60 MB. And that is BEFORE we're using LLSD.

What does the size of the file have to do with anything? Do you really
think the viewer is reading the whole file in and appending the
message then writing the whole thing out for every line of chat? Once
again, where are these several megabytes coming from?

FYI the relevant code is in
indra/newview/lllogchat.cpp::LLLogChat::saveHistory()
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Dave Booth]

  On 10/15/2010 06:53, Stickman wrote:
> If it's not, the Lindens should be waking up soon and see a huge
> thread of people screaming that the sky is falling and put some
> authority down on the situation. Looking forward to it, those clouds
> are looking awfully close.

The sky may not be falling and its not a question of unreasoning panic 
or hyperbole, but the whole point of logs is to be able to go back to 
them after the fact and see who said what. I'd even grudgingly accept a 
format change provided theres more in there as an identifier than just a 
bare uuid - its GOT to have at a minimum both the real name and the 
display name they are using at the time. Without both those the utility 
of any kind of logging becomes questionable. Logs will still be of value 
to resolve disputes since they record the uuids of the participants 
(although that process becomes a LOT less straightforward since one has 
to look up the uuid to find any name) but what about situations where 
inworld activities are being logged for another purpose, like 
documenting RP story arcs? Somebody changes "roles" in the RP a few 
months down the line and switches their display name to match and 
suddenly all the logs of their previous character seem to refer to their 
current one since theres no contemporaneous logging of the display name.

Certainly one of the RP groups I spend time with is going to have a hard 
time, since theres a lot of stuff they use logs for - copying them over 
to group websites to provide records and narrative so that we keep 
decent continuity.

To provide a more silly example of why its a bad idea, to know that uuid 
----0 was yelling "Fear my sparkly 
colors!" just isnt funny if you cant remember that user Joe.Lame was 
using the display name of "Phils Codpiece" at the time..

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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Carlo Wood]

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 04:53:05AM -0700, Stickman wrote:
> If it's not, the Lindens should be waking up soon and see a huge
> thread of people screaming that the sky is falling and put some
> authority down on the situation.

HAHAHA (not)

As if they care. You still don't know them do you?

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Carlo Wood]

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 04:47:21AM -0700, leliel wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:38 AM, Carlo Wood  wrote:
> > I was hoping that log files are updated very
> > frequently, so that if I crash I don't lose
> > text. But writing several megabytes to disk
> > every line of chat seems unfeasible.
> 
> It's 115 bytes + display name + message per line. Just where are these
> several megabytes coming from?

-rw-r--r-- 1 carlo carlo 60282480 Sep 28 00:30 chat.txt

That is 60 MB. And that is BEFORE we're using LLSD.

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[WolfPup Lowenhar]

As I am testing the viewer the .llsd files to append with no issues on that
part.

 

From: opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com
[mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Stickman
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 7:53 AM
To: leliel
Cc: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

 

> It's 115 bytes + display name + message per line. Just where are these
> several megabytes coming from?

Lack of "append" in LLSD. Sounds a bit extreme to me.

I prefer Opensource's line of thinking, where this is simply some sort
of oversight that can be repaired. The current format is missing
important information, such as the username and display name, and only
contains their UUID, which is less than ideal for a chat log to
contain.

If it's not, the Lindens should be waking up soon and see a huge
thread of people screaming that the sky is falling and put some
authority down on the situation. Looking forward to it, those clouds
are looking awfully close.

-Stickman
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  _  

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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Ambrosia]

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 11:23, leliel  wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 2:04 AM, Lance Corrimal
>  wrote:
>> Am Freitag, 15. Oktober 2010, 10:00:44 schrieb Rob Nelson:
>>>   So basically, LL decided to go from simply changing the formatting of
>>> their logs to (if what I am hearing is correct), of all things, LLSD XML
>>> notation, possibly the worst formatting of log possible?
>>>
>>> Has ANYONE over there at LL looked at the sheer amount of overhead LLSD
>>> produces? We'll have log folders that are larger in size than our cache
>>> folders.
>
> My log folder is a whopping 35MB after almost 4 years. LLSD would have
> to be very inefficient in order for my log directory to over take the
> cache directory within the next decade.
>

That's smaller than each of my several chat.txt's that I have backed up :p
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[leliel]

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:53 AM, Stickman  wrote:
>> It's 115 bytes + display name + message per line. Just where are these
>> several megabytes coming from?
>
> Lack of "append" in LLSD. Sounds a bit extreme to me.

The latest Snowstorm build had no trouble appending to the chat.llsd
file the Display Names project viewer created two months back, it even
showed the last 8 lines when I logged in.

> I prefer Opensource's line of thinking, where this is simply some sort
> of oversight that can be repaired.

The Display Names project viewer has been using this format for
months, I doubt it's an over sight.

> The current format is missing important information, such as the
> username and display name, and only contains their UUID, which is less
> than ideal for a chat log to contain.

It does have the display name, you can see it in the line I posted
above. It looks like gibberish because I was using a Unicode name at
the time.
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Stickman]

> It's 115 bytes + display name + message per line. Just where are these
> several megabytes coming from?

Lack of "append" in LLSD. Sounds a bit extreme to me.

I prefer Opensource's line of thinking, where this is simply some sort
of oversight that can be repaired. The current format is missing
important information, such as the username and display name, and only
contains their UUID, which is less than ideal for a chat log to
contain.

If it's not, the Lindens should be waking up soon and see a huge
thread of people screaming that the sky is falling and put some
authority down on the situation. Looking forward to it, those clouds
are looking awfully close.

-Stickman
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[leliel]

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:38 AM, Carlo Wood  wrote:
> I was hoping that log files are updated very
> frequently, so that if I crash I don't lose
> text. But writing several megabytes to disk
> every line of chat seems unfeasible.

It's 115 bytes + display name + message per line. Just where are these
several megabytes coming from?
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Carlo Wood]

I didn't know LLSD was capabable of appending,
does this new format mean that my 50 MB chat.txt
file is going to be re-written from scratch,
every time I sync it with the latest chat?

I was hoping that log files are updated very
frequently, so that if I crash I don't lose
text. But writing several megabytes to disk
every line of chat seems unfeasible.

So, how is this appending being done?

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Opensource Obscure]

OMG!?!?! THIS WILL [destroy SL economy|eat all 
your cheese|kill your kittens] !!!11!!!1!

I can't believe nobody is considering the idea that 
the current setting may just be an overlooking and that
the default behaviour could be restored before this
goes into production.

Opensource Obscure
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Rob Nelson]

  On 10/15/2010 2:04 AM, Lance Corrimal wrote:
> Am Freitag, 15. Oktober 2010, 10:00:44 schrieb Rob Nelson:
>>So basically, LL decided to go from simply changing the formatting of
>> their logs to (if what I am hearing is correct), of all things, LLSD XML
>> notation, possibly the worst formatting of log possible?
>>
>> Has ANYONE over there at LL looked at the sheer amount of overhead LLSD
>> produces? We'll have log folders that are larger in size than our cache
>> folders.
>>
>> "[{TIME}] {DISPLAY NAME} ({REAL.NAME}) says: {STUFF}" would have been
>> MORE than sufficient for logging purposes.
>
> what about sticking to the old format (i.e. without the "says" unless its a
> shout or a whisper)?
>
> [{TIME}] {DISPLAYNAME} ({LOGINNAME}): {STUFF}
>
> as it used to be..?
>
>
> bye,
> LC
Well, yeah.

Also, Marine, I stuck that ({REAL.NAME}) in there because I figured that 
their display name would have changed between now and when that log was 
written.  However, context may be lost if the display name is omitted, 
so I couldn't exactly dump that, either.
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Aidan Thornton]

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 7:15 AM, Jamey Fletcher  wrote:
> Is there actually a *reason* for this change, or is it just to screw
> around in the code to do provide an opportunity for new bugs, such as
> the one you found already?

I suspect the reason for the change is that with display names, the
names of participants in IMs and group chat no longer uniquely
identify them - and the usernames, which are unique, aren't available
at the point where the logging of chat and IMs is done. This also has
the interesting side-effect that it's incredibly difficult to figure
out who actually said something just from your chat logs, because the
only information in there that actually identifies them is their UUID.
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[leliel]

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 2:04 AM, Lance Corrimal
 wrote:
> Am Freitag, 15. Oktober 2010, 10:00:44 schrieb Rob Nelson:
>>   So basically, LL decided to go from simply changing the formatting of
>> their logs to (if what I am hearing is correct), of all things, LLSD XML
>> notation, possibly the worst formatting of log possible?
>>
>> Has ANYONE over there at LL looked at the sheer amount of overhead LLSD
>> produces? We'll have log folders that are larger in size than our cache
>> folders.

My log folder is a whopping 35MB after almost 4 years. LLSD would have
to be very inefficient in order for my log directory to over take the
cache directory within the next decade.

>> "[{TIME}] {DISPLAY NAME} ({REAL.NAME}) says: {STUFF}" would have been
>> MORE than sufficient for logging purposes.
>
>
> what about sticking to the old format (i.e. without the "says" unless its a
> shout or a whisper)?
>
> [{TIME}] {DISPLAYNAME} ({LOGINNAME}): {STUFF}
>
> as it used to be..?

I'll play devil's advocate and say llsd isn't that far off from this.
It's definitely more verbose, but the main difference is the UUID
instead of LOGNAME. Here's an actual line from my log file.

{'from':'\xe7\xa4\xbc\xe5\xad\x90','from_id':udba66655-e06a-47d9-a241-f055b85041ef,'message':':o','source_type':i1,'time':'2010/08/31
17:38'}
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Lance Corrimal]

Am Freitag, 15. Oktober 2010, 10:00:44 schrieb Rob Nelson:
>   So basically, LL decided to go from simply changing the formatting of
> their logs to (if what I am hearing is correct), of all things, LLSD XML
> notation, possibly the worst formatting of log possible?
> 
> Has ANYONE over there at LL looked at the sheer amount of overhead LLSD
> produces? We'll have log folders that are larger in size than our cache
> folders.
> 
> "[{TIME}] {DISPLAY NAME} ({REAL.NAME}) says: {STUFF}" would have been
> MORE than sufficient for logging purposes.


what about sticking to the old format (i.e. without the "says" unless its a 
shout or a whisper)?

[{TIME}] {DISPLAYNAME} ({LOGINNAME}): {STUFF}

as it used to be..?


bye,
LC
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Marine Kelley]

On 15 oct. 2010, at 10:45, Stickman  wrote:

>> "[{TIME}] {DISPLAY NAME} ({REAL.NAME}) says: {STUFF}" would have  
>> been MORE
>> than sufficient for logging purposes.
>
> [01:49] TehSticks (Stickman Ingmann) says: I second this format.
> Anyone see any drawbacks? Dates, maybe?
>

+1 !

No need to put too much info, all we need is a CLEAR way to tell which  
name is Display and which name is User, so that the reader won't be  
confused if they are attentive enough. I don't see any good reason for  
the change of the chat log format if the current format can hold the  
info we need already.

It would be best if older viewers could read newer chatlogs without  
much loss in final readability. LLSD would definitely not permit that. 
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Stickman]

> "[{TIME}] {DISPLAY NAME} ({REAL.NAME}) says: {STUFF}" would have been MORE
> than sufficient for logging purposes.

[01:49] TehSticks (Stickman Ingmann) says: I second this format.
Anyone see any drawbacks? Dates, maybe?

-Stickman
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Rob Nelson]

 So basically, LL decided to go from simply changing the formatting of 
their logs to (if what I am hearing is correct), of all things, LLSD XML 
notation, possibly the worst formatting of log possible?


Has ANYONE over there at LL looked at the sheer amount of overhead LLSD 
produces? We'll have log folders that are larger in size than our cache 
folders.


"[{TIME}] {DISPLAY NAME} ({REAL.NAME}) says: {STUFF}" would have been 
MORE than sufficient for logging purposes.


Rob

On 10/14/2010 9:57 PM, WolfPup Lowenhar wrote:


Actualy the file extension change is only to chat and IM logs. And I 
have already found a bug in the code!


https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23437

the above jira is the bug and it is not being cause be my file name 
modification as the mod is working fine for group IM's.


*From:* opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com 
[mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] *On Behalf Of 
*Jamey Fletcher

*Sent:* Friday, October 15, 2010 12:31 AM
*To:* opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
*Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

WolfPup Lowenhar wrote:
> Well folks my night is going to be interesting as now I have to hard
> merge my logging code to the new code as there are changes to the way
> logs are EVEN saved .llsd instead of .txt which is going to make things
> interesting for me as now I have to change my history look up code for
> the new file extension and maybe even the name formatting itself!

Is that the crash & console logs, or the chat logs too?
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Lance Corrimal]

My wife works inworld for a big estate, in sales and tenant support and staff 
training, and basically EVERY CASE DOCUMENTATION is based on plaintext chat- 
and IM logs. When I told her about this change earlier I almost had to tie her 
down to keep her to go over to linden village with a shotgun... and she's 
usually the most peace-loving person ever.

Am Freitag, 15. Oktober 2010, 09:19:03 schrieb Dave Booth:
>   On 10/15/2010 01:46, Stickman wrote:
> >> The new chat/IM logs are saved in LLSD of all things?
> > 
> > NOT MY CHAT LOGS! That's where I keep all my text!
> 
> Me too - thats a change needs a backout immediately.
> 
> Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Dave Booth]

  On 10/15/2010 01:46, Stickman wrote:
>> The new chat/IM logs are saved in LLSD of all things?
> NOT MY CHAT LOGS! That's where I keep all my text!

Me too - thats a change needs a backout immediately.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?


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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Stickman]

> The new chat/IM logs are saved in LLSD of all things?

NOT MY CHAT LOGS! That's where I keep all my text!

I am also very interested in the purpose of this change, and if there
will be provided (by LL or a loving developer) a handy and lightweight
notepad replacement to read and search these log files, or maybe a
tool to parse them into plain text.

I kinda use my chatlogs a lot. Creating an extra step to read them
doesn't make me happy. :< It means there's an "event horizon" date and
if I'm unsure of when a conversation happened I need to do two
searches using different tools.

Stickman
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Ambrosia]

Wait, what?

The new chat/IM logs are saved in LLSD of all things?

Why? To make chat/IM history work with the display names or...what?
And there is no option to also store a .txt copy?

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 08:15, Jamey Fletcher  wrote:
> WolfPup Lowenhar wrote:
>
>> Actualy the file extension change is only to chat and IM logs. And I
>> have already found a bug in the code!
>
>> https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23437
>
>> the above jira is the bug and it is not being cause be my file name
>> modification as the mod is working fine for group IM’s.
>
> Ok - so instead of just opening wordpad/nano/vi/emacs/religious editor
> of choice, and reading with eyeballs mark I, we're going to have to have
> a specialized decoder/converter, to read something that as far as I can
> tell, is going to take up a hell of a lot more storage for ... what purpose?
>
> Is there actually a *reason* for this change, or is it just to screw
> around in the code to do provide an opportunity for new bugs, such as
> the one you found already?
>
> Goddess knows, all of the bugs in the current code are *completely*
> eradicated.
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Lance Corrimal]

Am Freitag 15 Oktober 2010 schrieb Jamey Fletcher:
> WolfPup Lowenhar wrote:
> > Actualy the file extension change is only to chat and IM logs.
> > And I have already found a bug in the code!
> > 
> > https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23437
> > 
> > the above jira is the bug and it is not being cause be my file
> > name modification as the mod is working fine for group IM’s.
> 
> Ok - so instead of just opening wordpad/nano/vi/emacs/religious
> editor of choice, and reading with eyeballs mark I, we're going to
> have to have a specialized decoder/converter, to read something
> that as far as I can tell, is going to take up a hell of a lot
> more storage for ... what purpose?
> 
> Is there actually a *reason* for this change, or is it just to
> screw around in the code to do provide an opportunity for new
> bugs, such as the one you found already?


Any "reason" that comes to mind would be higly insulting.


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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Jamey Fletcher]

WolfPup Lowenhar wrote:

> Actualy the file extension change is only to chat and IM logs. And I
> have already found a bug in the code!

> https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23437

> the above jira is the bug and it is not being cause be my file name
> modification as the mod is working fine for group IM’s.

Ok - so instead of just opening wordpad/nano/vi/emacs/religious editor 
of choice, and reading with eyeballs mark I, we're going to have to have 
a specialized decoder/converter, to read something that as far as I can 
tell, is going to take up a hell of a lot more storage for ... what purpose?

Is there actually a *reason* for this change, or is it just to screw 
around in the code to do provide an opportunity for new bugs, such as 
the one you found already?

Goddess knows, all of the bugs in the current code are *completely* 
eradicated.
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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[WolfPup Lowenhar]

Actualy the file extension change is only to chat and IM logs. And I have
already found a bug in the code!

 

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23437

 

the above jira is the bug and it is not being cause be my file name
modification as the mod is working fine for group IM's.

 

From: opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com
[mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Jamey
Fletcher
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 12:31 AM
To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

 

WolfPup Lowenhar wrote:
> Well folks my night is going to be interesting as now I have to hard
> merge my logging code to the new code as there are changes to the way
> logs are EVEN saved .llsd instead of .txt which is going to make things
> interesting for me as now I have to change my history look up code for
> the new file extension and maybe even the name formatting itself!

Is that the crash & console logs, or the chat logs too?
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privileges 

  _  

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1136 / Virus Database: 422/3196 - Release Date: 10/14/10

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Re: [opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[Jamey Fletcher]

WolfPup Lowenhar wrote:
> Well folks my night is going to be interesting as now I have to hard
> merge my logging code to the new code as there are changes to the way
> logs are EVEN saved .llsd instead of .txt which is going to make things
> interesting for me as now I have to change my history look up code for
> the new file extension and maybe even the name formatting itself!

Is that the crash & console logs, or the chat logs too?
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[opensource-dev] O.O Display name code DROP!

[WolfPup Lowenhar]

Well folks my night is going to be interesting as now I have to hard merge
my logging code to the new code as there are changes to the way logs are
EVEN saved .llsd instead of .txt which is going to make things interesting
for me as now I have to change my history look up code for the new file
extension and maybe even the name formatting itself!

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