Re: [opensuse] Problems with sound on OpenSuSE 10.0
On Tuesday 09 May 2006 02:18, Low Kian Seong wrote: > Dear Carl and all, > > Two questions : > > 1. Correct me if I am wrong, isn't packman for non supported and unstable > packages ? This is for my office's desktop machines, so stability is a > must. > > 2. After adding the sources what is next as in what packages do I install ? Hi Low Kian Seong, Houghi has already discussed 'supported' vs. 'unstable', but Suser-Guru and Packman are very reliable in my experience. In your original post, you said you upgraded some systems from 9.3 to 10.0 and lost the ability to play mp3 files. One of the changes from 9.3 to 10.0 is that non-OSS packages have been dropped from the download version. The following page lists the packages provided in the retail (boxed) distribution of SUSE 10.0 that are *not* included with the download (OSS) version: http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/tip/16015.html If you were to buy and install the retail version, you would not only be supporting the ongoing development of the distribution but you'd also regain the ability to play mp3 files with xmms... since the retail version contains the non-OSS libraries. Of course, you can add comparable multimedia playback to the OSS download version by using the installation sources that I posted previously. After you've added those sources, the packages below should be available for installation: MPlayer w32codec-all mplayerplug-in RealPlayer10 Note: In my experience, one package that is installed by default with 10.0, called "mozplugger", conflicts with mplayerplug-in. I usually uninstall mozplugger first, then add the packages I've listed above. regards, Carl - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
Hi Martin, Am Tuesday 09 May 2006 08:33 schrieb Martin Mewes: > I think that if a packager wants to build packages for openSUSE a > interactive build tool (IBT) should come up with something like this (more > specific to read on opensuse-packaging soon): You heard about the openSUSE Build Service ? I think almost everything you mentioned is there or is planned ... http://build.opensuse.org opensuse-buildservice mailing list may help you as well :) > Step 01: Enter the path/download URL to the $name.src.rpm planned > Step 02: IBT extracts the contents to ~/build/$name > Step 03: As the src.rpm extracts the sources for $name.rpm provided > by the developer it should be somewhat analyzable by IBT. > IBT should actually see the install instructions and can > present the sections part by part. we do not allow src.rpm upload, because we build also for Debian. But we could extend the command line tool to extract the src.rpm and to upload it automatically ... > Step 04: IBT should be able to have a set of directories builtin > to give the packager good hints on how to change the > install instructions. rpm macros are doing this in general. > Example: Webmin wants to install to /usr/libexec/webmin > by default, but the standards for openSUSE say that > system packages should go to /opt/$package as example so the > instructions for the installation regarding the installation > path should be automatically altered by IBT. IMHO a provided WebMin by openSUSE should install into /usr, but that may cause some conflicts ... > Step 05: In the end Webmin is managed over HTTP so the IBT should > ask a couple of questions at the end, i.e. > > Is this a package to be managed remotely? [ ] > Please enter the the needed port: > > IBT can automatically add code to the package > to open the managing port in the firewall. [ ] > > RPM-Commandline/YAST-Output: > a) If you choose to leave this entry blank > some code will be added to the package informing the > end-user that he needs to open the given port in the > firewall manually. > b) If you choose to select this option code will be added > informing the user that the given port will be opened > automatically for him. Good idea, maybe a YaST configuration template could be created, which can be configured by a simple file for each package ... > As you may see "Step 05" is part of the IBT which is directly supporting > openSUSE. To now it is Webmin-specific but I will render it to be more > general. In the end there should be something like this: > > Step 06: openSUSE requires packages to be signed with a digital > signature. If you do not have a GnuPG-key IBT will now > build one for you. Please enter the following information: > > Full Name: > eMail: > Description: > > IBT will create the key and stores everything in a safe > place to be used for future packaging. On will IBT will > upload it to a key-server for you as well (highly > recommended). This key should be used for packaging only. We will have a global openSUSE Build Service key soon. We are not sure yet, if we really need the possibility to allow signing with user keys, but we spoke about a solution that you can sign the package provided by the Build Service via the command line tool (yes, without uploading the private key and without downloading/reuploading the rpms). bye adrian -- Adrian Schroeter SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
Am Monday 08 May 2006 18:52 schrieb Alexey Eremenko: > > Other than spending a lot of time beta-testing these last few months I've > > also been working on a beginner's guide to SUSE Linux. In it I try to > > encourage users to take part in the openSUSE community as I certainly > > enjoy being part of it. > > > > cb400f > > Where can I find that effort ? > > I want to participate in writing the SUSE beginner's guide. You should maybe ask on opensuse-doc ml -- Adrian Schroeter SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
Am Monday 08 May 2006 18:19 schrieb houghi: > On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 01:08:49PM +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote: > > > > Just a few thoughts, off the top of my head: > > - packagers: we need more packagers, don't forget that the whole thing > > is happening around a distribution, made of packages > > This is towards the extra repo's, I suppose, because I doubt if SUSE will > let us be packaging at this very moment. So for this we have to wait for > the build server. Hey, have a look at http://software.opensuse.org/download ;) These are packages from SUSE/Novell and other people starting to use the build service... I have the hope to have an open build service (not feature complete and not official stable) within the next two month ... bye adrian -- Adrian Schroeter SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
Am Monday 08 May 2006 13:08 schrieb Pascal Bleser: ... > Most notably, the staff dedicated to openSUSE at Novell is too small > in numbers. This has some implications, as we cannot tell Novell what > to do with its money (no jdd, we can't): I think the main problem here is that the distribution gets still compiled with the internal autobuild. Our plan is to move out the packages step by step to the public Build Service. I hope that we can develop 10.2 with the public build service which should improve this situation at least in regard of the distribution development. > - information flow: not enough information between different parts of > the community, also about the wiki, announcements, changes, decisions, ... > > Other, minor ideas, such as having @opensuse.org email addresses, to > show we're part of the community (this has been mentioned once on the > list, but hasn't been discussed further). While I agree that there should become more people an @opensuse.org email address, I disagree that everybody should get one. Because not every user of openSUSE should be able to speak for the project. The question is, how we can decide/vote who should get one ? How many people should get one ? I would be very happy, if we could elect some committee for these questions ... Btw, a forward address for everybody could be [EMAIL PROTECTED] for using it esp in regard with the build service... How does this sound ? > I'm sick of having unanswered questions, waiting for the build service > to solve all problems, and waiting for folks at SUSE/Novell to do > things for us because they're busy with development, beta phases or > the many other things they have to do (note: this is not meant to be a > rant against the SUSE staff, they have a lot of work and not enough > people dedicated to openSUSE). Sorry for this, but the build service is already there for people, who accept bugs, problems, downtimes and so on. You can already build public packages. > We have to get our act together, drive topics and initiatives on this > very list ourselves, then come up with agreed upon, realistic > proposals or requests to Novell, if needed. > Of course, it's even better when we don't have to. > And let's please discuss important issues first. > > This is a benevolent dictatorship model, but that doesn't mean that we > should just sit back, rant and wait for things to be done by them. > > At least that's my vision on how we should evolve as a community, and > I've been using SUSE since 5.0 (= quite some time), waiting for these > opportunities to happen. Maybe I'm just too impatient, I probably am, > but I objectively think we're pretty much stuck in inertia right now. Impatientness is a good motivation :) -- Adrian Schroeter SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
Adrian Schröter wrote: > Am Monday 08 May 2006 13:08 schrieb Pascal Bleser: > ... >> Most notably, the staff dedicated to openSUSE at Novell is too small >> in numbers. This has some implications, as we cannot tell Novell what >> to do with its money (no jdd, we can't): > > I think the main problem here is that the distribution gets still compiled > with the internal autobuild. Our plan is to move out the packages step by > step to the public Build Service. I hope that we can develop 10.2 with the > public build service which should improve this situation at least in regard > of the distribution development. Would be awesome, yet we'll have to see whether the build service will be mature enough when 10.2 will start to get built, to avoid having a issues caused by the build service. Guess I'd better kick myself and start using it to trigger some bugs ;) I'll see what osc has to offer, seems to best fit for the way I work. >> - information flow: not enough information between different parts of >> the community, also about the wiki, announcements, changes, decisions, ... >> >> Other, minor ideas, such as having @opensuse.org email addresses, to >> show we're part of the community (this has been mentioned once on the >> list, but hasn't been discussed further). > > While I agree that there should become more people an @opensuse.org email > address, I disagree that everybody should get one. Because not every user of > openSUSE should be able to speak for the project. ACK, that's also what I was having on my mind. > The question is, how we can decide/vote who should get one ? How many > people Right, that's the only real issue. > should get one ? I would be very happy, if we could elect some committee for > these questions ... > Btw, a forward address for everybody could be [EMAIL PROTECTED] for > using it esp in regard with the build service... > How does this sound ? Very good to me. +1 I didn't want to use that word until now, but I guess that electing some form of "steering committee" could be a very welcome step forward. >> I'm sick of having unanswered questions, waiting for the build service >> to solve all problems, and waiting for folks at SUSE/Novell to do >> things for us because they're busy with development, beta phases or >> the many other things they have to do (note: this is not meant to be a >> rant against the SUSE staff, they have a lot of work and not enough >> people dedicated to openSUSE). > > Sorry for this, but the build service is already there for people, who accept > bugs, problems, downtimes and so on. You can already build public packages. Yes, but Adrian, what I mean is that since openSUSE has been kicked off in October, many questions and topics have been put back because the build service was going to solve everything (and it might do so one day ;)). Other topics have also been put back because everyone was busy working on the 10.0 release, and it was pretty much the same the last month or two with 10.1 (agreed, that was a particularly hot one). The latter point being why I wrote we should get forward as a community without always waiting for you guys to take decisions, we can't just have a standstill while you're busy on a release. Now the build service is starting to take some shape, which is great, but it still lacks tooling (please, not the web UI ;)) and guidelines ([1] looks like chaos to me, and even inside subdirectories the names of distributions are varying from SL10 to SuLi10.0 to a few others) - but I've already addressed that in another mail (and just noticed your reply, thanks ;)). [1] http://repos.opensuse.org/opensuse/repositories/main/ I don't use it as of now, because I have my environment, my scripts, my repository, I need minimal effort to submit, build and retrieve packages, mostly because I manage an insane amount of packages during my free time and it has to be working as quickly as possible. While we're at it, as it comes to my mind right now, an example of lack of "community embracement" as far as packaging is concerned: SUSE Linux 10.1 now has signed installation sources, supports an enhanced RPM-MD (aka yum) format with YOU-alike information. That's great, I love it, I really do but... it hasn't been advertised on any relevant list (I'm on opensuse, opensuse-build, opensuse-packaging and opensuse-factory, I guess I would have noticed ;D), there is no documentation available, no howto. Well, for the signed repos, some information has been put together (don't have the URL at hands atm). The enhanced RPM-MD thing kind of popped up by chance as Christoph mentioned it while discussing something loosely related. When such things are discussed and developed, I would expect it to be public, e.g. on opensuse-packaging. While it isn't really of much interest for users, it is for 3rd party packagers like the packman team, myself, and many others. 10.1 is going to be released in 2 days and I have no idea how to sign my reposito
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
Pascal Bleser wrote: ...a lot of things, one of them being stupid: [...] > 10.1 is going to be released in 2 days and I have no idea how to sign > my repositories to avoid big warnings showing up in end users' YaST2 > when they add my repo. I guess I'd be able to do so by spending half a > day with trial+error, but I don't quite have that time atm, and I was > actually expecting something more or less spoon-fed to be written for us. My bad, this pretty much looks like it, at least as far as signed yast repos are concerned: http://en.opensuse.org/Secure_Installation_Sources cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> _\_v FOSDEM 2006 -- 25+26 February 2006 in Brussels signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 11:27:25AM +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote: > Pascal Bleser wrote: > ...a lot of things, one of them being stupid: > > [...] > > 10.1 is going to be released in 2 days and I have no idea how to sign > > my repositories to avoid big warnings showing up in end users' YaST2 > > when they add my repo. I guess I'd be able to do so by spending half a > > day with trial+error, but I don't quite have that time atm, and I was > > actually expecting something more or less spoon-fed to be written for us. > > My bad, this pretty much looks like it, at least as far as signed yast > repos are concerned: > http://en.opensuse.org/Secure_Installation_Sources YUM too, just look at the end. Ciao, Marcus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
Marcus Meissner wrote: > On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 11:27:25AM +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote: >> Pascal Bleser wrote: >> ...a lot of things, one of them being stupid: >> >> [...] >>> 10.1 is going to be released in 2 days and I have no idea how to sign >>> my repositories to avoid big warnings showing up in end users' YaST2 >>> when they add my repo. I guess I'd be able to do so by spending half a >>> day with trial+error, but I don't quite have that time atm, and I was >>> actually expecting something more or less spoon-fed to be written for us. >> My bad, this pretty much looks like it, at least as far as signed yast >> repos are concerned: >> http://en.opensuse.org/Secure_Installation_Sources > > YUM too, just look at the end. Yep. But about RPM-MD I was referring to the format used by YOU, that includes additional metadata (changelog-alike). cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> _\_v FOSDEM 2006 -- 25+26 February 2006 in Brussels signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
Helle, all, I'm really very busy nowadays but I think I should say something here... There are really many good ideas in that topic ... but how can a newbie or opensuse beginner start help? He need tutorials, very simple documents and interactive help to learn about the things he may help with? I've RHCE but I don't know how to build a quite complex RPM package from source code ... I need a tutorial to learn "how" .. many people likes to help but that are just disappointed when then read complicated advanced stuff... simplicity is a must .. I've already helped opensuse by making teaching movies.. I started with opensuse 10 installtion, then some linux essentials and I'll continue for advanced stuff ... it's on my Arabic website www.linuxeyes.com ... that's all what I could do .. I want to do more but I couldn't 'coz of complixety of management or inability to go with direct helping stuff ... sorry for my bad english Greetings from Cairo, Egypt :)
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 11:18:00AM +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote: > Would be awesome, yet we'll have to see whether the build service will > be mature enough when 10.2 will start to get built, to avoid having a > issues caused by the build service. What I udnerstood is that the build service would be something for end of this year. I can imagine that it is then too close to a 10.2 release, so it could be for the version after that. If I am wrong, please tell me so. > > While I agree that there should become more people an @opensuse.org email > > address, I disagree that everybody should get one. Because not every user > > of > > openSUSE should be able to speak for the project. > > ACK, that's also what I was having on my mind. I disagree. People who have a login at Novell/openSUSE should get an email adress as an extra. At this moment there is nobody, exept suse.de, who can speak for openSUSE.org I don't see the opensuse.org email adress as anything official. I see it as a gift. I have a gmail adress, but when I send mail with that adress, I hardly speak for gmail.com. I have several other adresses and with none of those people will think that I am somehow resposible for anything. > > The question is, how we can decide/vote who should get one ? How many > > people > > Right, that's the only real issue. People who file bugreports in bugzulla. Making the adress available only to some is a bad move that will seperate the community even more to haves and have nots. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
houghi wrote: > On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 11:18:00AM +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote: >> Would be awesome, yet we'll have to see whether the build service will >> be mature enough when 10.2 will start to get built, to avoid having a >> issues caused by the build service. > > What I understood is that the build service would be something for end of > this year. I can imagine that it is then too close to a 10.2 release, so > it could be for the version after that. It's a moving target in development. It's already usable right now. The question is rather: will it be tested, and have enough features to be viable for building 10.2 at some early stage (of 10.2). >>> While I agree that there should become more people an @opensuse.org email >>> address, I disagree that everybody should get one. Because not every user >>> of >>> openSUSE should be able to speak for the project. >> ACK, that's also what I was having on my mind. > > I disagree. People who have a login at Novell/openSUSE should get an email > adress as an extra. Sure, @users.opensuse.org as Adrian suggested. > At this moment there is nobody, except suse.de, who can speak for > openSUSE.org Sorry but that's exactly the "I'm sitting here and waiting for things to happen" attitude I was referring to. I think I can speak for opensuse.org because I'm an active part of that community. So can any other active committer. Stop considering us non-Novell employees as minor elements of the community. > I don't see the opensuse.org email adress as anything official. I see it > as a gift. I have a gmail adress, but when I send mail with that adress, I > hardly speak for gmail.com. I have several other adresses and with none of > those people will think that I am somehow resposible for anything. I'm afraid you don't get the point. It's not just an email address for convenience like gmail. You contribute actively to the community (and probably more than just reporting 2 or 3 bugs), you're part of it, and you want to show it. Don't underestimate the effect of it, it also helps a feeling of belonging to the active core of the community. We're going to have leadership, we're going to have people who will come out of the mass and do more than others, deserve more credit and respect than others (I mean wrt their work), that's just how opensource communities work and evolve naturally. We won't be an exception, like it or not. Having an opensuse.org email is just natural to that evolution as a community. Actually, anything else is awkward. >>> The question is, how we can decide/vote who should get one ? How many >>> people >> Right, that's the only real issue. > > People who file bugreports in bugzulla. Making the adress available only > to some is a bad move that will seperate the community even more to haves > and have nots. Read above. There will be differences, that's how it works, always, like it or not. And I don't agree that anyone who reports a few bugs on the bugzilla has the same degree of involvement in the project as a packager, a forum or wiki moderator/sysop, or even someone who committedly and thoroughly tests factory or beta releases and reports several dozens of bugs, makes large contributions to the documentation, writes several howtos on the wiki, spends a lot of time translating, etc... OpenSource projects always work as "meritocracies". cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> _\_v FOSDEM 2006 -- 25+26 February 2006 in Brussels signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
Hi Adrian, Adrian Schröter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Am Tuesday 09 May 2006 08:33 schrieb Martin Mewes: >> I think that if a packager wants to build packages for openSUSE a >> interactive build tool (IBT) should come up with something like this (more >> specific to read on opensuse-packaging soon): > >You heard about the openSUSE Build Service ? I think almost everything you >mentioned is there or is planned ... > > http://build.opensuse.org > >opensuse-buildservice mailing list may help you as well :) > >> Step 01: Enter the path/download URL to the $name.src.rpm > >planned Cool ... >> Step 02: IBT extracts the contents to ~/build/$name >> Step 03: As the src.rpm extracts the sources for $name.rpm provided >> by the developer it should be somewhat analyzable by IBT. >> IBT should actually see the install instructions and can >> present the sections part by part. > >we do not allow src.rpm upload, because we build also for Debian. But we could >extend the command line tool to extract the src.rpm and to upload it >automatically ... Cool ... I will have a look at it. Thanks for pointing this out. > >> Step 04: IBT should be able to have a set of directories builtin >> to give the packager good hints on how to change the >> install instructions. > >rpm macros are doing this in general. RPM macros are subject to be written by the user. The IBT should give the user a common guideline throughout the complete build to help him finding solutions for fitting the package for openSUSE. >> Example: Webmin wants to install to /usr/libexec/webmin >> by default, but the standards for openSUSE say that >> system packages should go to /opt/$package as example so the >> instructions for the installation regarding the installation >> path should be automatically altered by IBT. > >IMHO a provided WebMin by openSUSE should install into /usr, but that may >cause some conflicts ... Well /opt was just a good guess ;-) >> Step 05: In the end Webmin is managed over HTTP so the IBT should >> ask a couple of questions at the end, i.e. >> >> Is this a package to be managed remotely? [ ] >> Please enter the the needed port: >> >> IBT can automatically add code to the package >> to open the managing port in the firewall. [ ] >> >> RPM-Commandline/YAST-Output: >> a) If you choose to leave this entry blank >> some code will be added to the package informing the >> end-user that he needs to open the given port in the >> firewall manually. >> b) If you choose to select this option code will be added >> informing the user that the given port will be opened >> automatically for him. > >Good idea, maybe a YaST configuration template could be created, which can be >configured by a simple file for each package ... Yepp ... >We will have a global openSUSE Build Service key soon. We are not sure yet, if >we really need the possibility to allow signing with user keys, but we spoke >about a solution that you can sign the package provided by the Build Service >via the command line tool (yes, without uploading the private key and without >downloading/reuploading the rpms). First I will take a look around the Build service and see the status. I really would like to get more involved in packaging if the Build service really makes things more easy for me. bis dahin / kind regards Martin Mewes Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer: Messaging 2003 Microsoft Certified Systems Administrator: Messaging 2003 -- http://www.mewes.tv/ - Homepage http://mbox.mewes.tv/ - Mailinglisten zum Downloaden - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 12:11:14PM +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote: > > I disagree. People who have a login at Novell/openSUSE should get an email > > adress as an extra. > > Sure, @users.opensuse.org as Adrian suggested. I disagree. That is just ugly. > > At this moment there is nobody, except suse.de, who can speak for > > openSUSE.org > > Sorry but that's exactly the "I'm sitting here and waiting for things > to happen" attitude I was referring to. > > I think I can speak for opensuse.org because I'm an active part of > that community. So can any other active committer. > > Stop considering us non-Novell employees as minor elements of the > community. I am not. I am also an active part of the community, as is everybody else who uses SUSE. Who decides if there comes a forum and when? As I see it we can expess our wishes, yet it is Novell that decides in the end wether or not things happening. I don't think that is a bad thing. It just needs some improvemenet. > I'm afraid you don't get the point. > It's not just an email address for convenience like gmail. I DO get the point. It IS just an email adress. That was my reason of asking a while ago in the first place. To have it as a forwarding emailadress when you subscribe to either openSUSE or to bugzilla. It would be very sad if only some selected few would be able to get one. You want to have people join openSUSE community. Giving them an emailadress is then a thank you for doing so. Otherwise people will think that they are still not a real opensuse member, because they don't get the adress. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
houghi wrote: > On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 12:11:14PM +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote: >>> I disagree. People who have a login at Novell/openSUSE should get an email >>> adress as an extra. >> Sure, @users.opensuse.org as Adrian suggested. > > I disagree. That is just ugly. > >>> At this moment there is nobody, except suse.de, who can speak for >>> openSUSE.org >> >> Sorry but that's exactly the "I'm sitting here and waiting for things >> to happen" attitude I was referring to. >> >> I think I can speak for opensuse.org because I'm an active part of >> that community. So can any other active committer. >> >> Stop considering us non-Novell employees as minor elements of the >> community. > > I am not. I am also an active part of the community, as is everybody else > who uses SUSE. Who decides if there comes a forum and when? As I see it we > can expess our wishes, yet it is Novell that decides in the end wether or > not things happening. I couldn't disagree more. While using SUSE Linux somehow makes you part of the community at large, that's not the part of the community I'm talking about. That means you're using it and it doesn't imply that you are spending some of your free time to make things better for the others who use it. Sorry but it _does_ make a difference. People should be rewarded for their efforts. It's not about pushing down people who don't, it's about pushing up people who do, that's a subtle but very important difference. "It is Novell that decides in the end whether or not things happen" It's the current situation because some people seem to be fine with that and because tons of on- and off-topic mails are flowing on the list but we aren't able to take decisions in the end. I'm afraid the web forum topic is very characteristic. We don't want that situation (well, at least, I don't) and Novell doesn't want it either, it isn't a benefit to anyone. If that's the idea, then we can stop the whole opensuse.org thing right now. The goal is to go beyond that as fast as possible so that we can directly contribute to the project: documentation, translations, testing, packaging, helping out and moderating on IRC, forums and mailinglists, developing YaST2 modules, submit source code patches, create artwork, etc etc... Some of that is already possible, most is still quite cumbersome, and a smaller part isn't possible just yet. The benefit is for both sides: 1) we non-Novell employees can contribute directly and influence our ecosystem and our distribution (wrt packaging once the build service is mainstream for building SUSE Linux) 2) Novell gets a lot of manpower and skilled people to contribute to their business, indirectly, by spreading the user base Really, one goal should be to take away as much work as possible from the openSUSE staff at Novell. They're not keeping their hands on it because they don't want to give control away, but because we haven't been able yet to produce a community structure where it is possible. I'm sure they'd be more than happy to give away some or most of the many tasks and responsibilities they have to take care of now/ As I wrote in an earlier mail, it's a benevolent dictatorship, but we can nevertheless be in control side-by-side with Novell, together, on most aspects, as equally leveled partners. > I don't think that is a bad thing. It just needs some improvemenet. No, it has to change completely. This is an interim situation, this is not what we should aim for. >> I'm afraid you don't get the point. >> It's not just an email address for convenience like gmail. > > I DO get the point. It IS just an email adress. That was my reason of > asking a while ago in the first place. To have it as a forwarding > emailadress when you subscribe to either openSUSE or to bugzilla. Could be one use for it, but that's really minor compared to the "I'm part of the community" aspect. > It would be very sad if only some selected few would be able to get one. "selected" yes, but "few".. not necessarily. What's sad about that ? It's how it works. You really want to tell me Linus Torvalds shouldn't be regarded as more respected, committed, deserving as a Linux newbie who installed SUSE Linux 2 days ago ? (granted, those are extremes ;)) Is that a reason to dismiss or consider that Linux newbie as an inferior human being, as you seem to imply into what I wrote ? Of course not. Couldn't that newbie one day contribute a lot to the community and be respected and deserving as well ? Obviously, yes. (well, as much as Linus would be pretty tough ;D) I'm not sure you have a realistic vision of how OpenSource communities (or communities in general) work. But to make this very clear: it's not because someone spends a lot of time and energy e.g. making packages or writing documentation for thousands of SUSE Linux users that I would [or anyone else should] consider him a better human being or superior to anyone else. It's just that he is more committed to the community than others, a
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
Adrian Schröter wrote: > Hi Martin, > > Am Tuesday 09 May 2006 08:33 schrieb Martin Mewes: >> I think that if a packager wants to build packages for openSUSE a >> interactive build tool (IBT) should come up with something like this (more >> specific to read on opensuse-packaging soon): > > You heard about the openSUSE Build Service ? I think almost everything you > mentioned is there or is planned ... > > http://build.opensuse.org may I state than beeing quite involved here, having made some (even hex) programming, using quite often to compile my packages and having written part of a course on LDP 101 (junior admin) I still don't know what this build service is about? may be somebody could take some time to explain to non programmers what this is going to do? for example, I understand very well (I guess :-) what the Sourceforge compile farm is, but what the heck is the suse build service? I see the ending point is a rpm or deb file :-), but what is the way from my one page php script to this rpm through the build service? (I could do myself by hand on 2/3 hours, I hope :-) what advantages? let's beg you have XEN farms? but then? thanks jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 02:53:06PM +0200, jdd wrote: > Adrian Schröter wrote: > > Hi Martin, > > > > Am Tuesday 09 May 2006 08:33 schrieb Martin Mewes: > >> I think that if a packager wants to build packages for openSUSE a > >> interactive build tool (IBT) should come up with something like this (more > >> specific to read on opensuse-packaging soon): > > > > You heard about the openSUSE Build Service ? I think almost everything you > > mentioned is there or is planned ... > > > > http://build.opensuse.org > > may I state than beeing quite involved here, having made > some (even hex) programming, using quite often to compile my > packages and having written part of a course on LDP 101 > (junior admin) I still don't know what this build service is > about? > > may be somebody could take some time to explain to non > programmers what this is going to do? > > for example, I understand very well (I guess :-) what the > Sourceforge compile farm is, but what the heck is the suse > build service? http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service Ciao, Marcus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
Adrian Schröter wrote: >> Other, minor ideas, such as having @opensuse.org email addresses, to >> show we're part of the community (this has been mentioned once on the >> list, but hasn't been discussed further). > > While I agree that there should become more people an @opensuse.org email > address, I disagree that everybody should get one. please, can we use this as an example. we need badly to keep peoples with us. People come on the wiki, edit some pages and go. how can we glue then to openSUSE :-) * we can't pay them, too expensive and beyond the open philosophy :-) * we can't do nothing, because most of them wont stay and between the two? some kind of reward? giving an opensuse.org mail could be one step reward. Let any sysop the opportunity to ask a user: I see you have made some work on opensuse, would you mind to have such address? To be written as "staff member" on a blocked page (that is a bit more official than the wiki team page) could be made at the same time. and any such people should be asked to choose a particular task: edit/maintain some part of the wiki (some category, for example), giving sometime on a Linux forum with the opensuse mail as signature... then we could add some "time" reward: may be the one staff member for 6 month can have a chocolate medal :-) or a SUSE pin, or better a unexpected gift as you did for beta testers > Impatientness is a good motivation :) some times. I was asked to be sysop in November and the wiki opened in february. I was near to give up and take work elsewhere. Voluteers can find work very easily, you know :-) however, moral rewards are the betters. simply a personal message from a sysop can be rewarding :-) thanks jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
Marcus Meissner wrote: > http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service sorry, but this one is nearly unusable. looks like a man page :-((()). please give us _one_ example. If you want, give me some access and I will try to describe this from a semi-external point of view jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
houghi wrote: > I don't see the opensuse.org email adress as anything official. I see > it as a gift. I have a gmail adress, but when I send mail with that > adress, I hardly speak for gmail.com. Because gmail.com offers free email to anyone who wants it. opensuse.org doesn't. Anyone with a @opensuse.org email-address will have a strong implied association with opensuse. It can't be just a user. /Per Jessen, Zürich - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Re: We, the community
Craig Millar wrote: > To be fair, although this list is described as "opensuse General > discussion about the openSUSE (development) project" on the wiki, it's > has a slightly misleadingly moniker and has so from the outset. I've > always thought it should be more implicitly named, e.g. opensuse-devel > which leaves no grounds for confusion. I second that. /Per Jessen, Zürich - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Re: We, the community
Per Jessen wrote: > Craig Millar wrote: > >> To be fair, although this list is described as "opensuse General >> discussion about the openSUSE (development) project" on the wiki, it's >> has a slightly misleadingly moniker and has so from the outset. I've >> always thought it should be more implicitly named, e.g. opensuse-devel >> which leaves no grounds for confusion. > > I second that. Maybe even rename opensuse@ to opensuse-project@ to be more clear. Looking at other -devel lists, it seems that people think they get technical help there, so I expect confusion to become worse if we rename opensuse@ to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I changed the template a bit (in the hope of making it clearer). However, I think we should also rearrange the order of the lists. Suggestion: * suse-linux-e * opensuse-factory * opensuse-announce * opensuse * opensuse-doc * opensuse-optimize * opensuse-buildservice * opensuse-packaging * opensuse-commit * opensuse-wiki * suse-security-announce * suse-security * suse-kde * suse-ppc And also a rewording the following entries would make sense: * opensuse-factory Discussion about factory/alpha/beta/RC versions of SUSE Linux. * suse-linux-e Discussion about released SUSE Linux versions. Regards, Carl-Daniel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 01:36:47PM +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote: > BTW, do I sound arrogant or harsh to you ? Yes you do. It is uncalled for. And because of the arrogance I see no reason to reply to anything you said. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Re: We, the community
Carl-Daniel Hailfinger wrote: > I changed the template a bit (in the hope of making it clearer). and make all the lists available from the same screen (lists... one of the problem with suse-e is the great number of OT. the number of posts is very annoying for anybody that have not a high bandwith connexion. I question if we should not have _also_ a moderated list - I could be a moderator, strictly technical help jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
Am Dienstag, den 09.05.2006, 13:36 +0200 schrieb Pascal Bleser: [snipped lot of stuff about deserving an email address] I can't believe you guys are arguing about who should get what kind of email-address. How about we have Novell create a new mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] has a nice ring to it, does it not? Well, I just started contributing to opensuse by translating a couple of pages on the wiki (oh, darn, I should post that to the opensuse-wiki mailing list I guess), so according to you I would not (yet) be eligible for an opensuse email address, but if it was up to houghi, I would actually get one. Guess what? I couldn't care less about another email-address or not. What I care about is that I virtually can't find any information on opensuse.org that goes beyond how to download the latest release. I occasionally see a link posted here or on another opensuse mailing list i subscribed to, and i keep asking myself: how did he (or she) find that particular bit of information? i keep trying, but either I get dead-ends or I'm drowned in search results. Another thing: I find a page, see that it has already been translated and move on to another page. The next day I happen to visit that same page again, it looks the same, only the link to the translated page is suddenly gone. What kind crap is that? No matter if a wiki (and opensuse is a wiki, right?) is an ever-evolving thing or not. As a user I prefer some stability. When I visit a webpage I expect to find it again tomorrow, even more so when it's a corporate webpage. And I get annoyed when one of the main pages changes daily, like it happened with http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation. > Really, what's wrong or "ugly" with that ? > Does it sound like apartheid ? ;) that was totally out of line. smiley or not. > BTW, do I sound arrogant or harsh to you ? Well, I'm trying to push > things forward and at some point it involves making statements and/or > speaking on behalf of others, either to be agreed upon or to trigger > reactions, discussions, decisions and actions (in that order ;D). No, not arrogant, but losing yourself (and some really good points in your original posting) in imho totally fruitless discussions about some really. really, really (may I say it again: really!) unimportant things. -- Andreas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
I have a hard time finding things on the wiki, perhaps it's just because I don't use them much, but I have not had much luck with them personally. I find forums much easier to search. I did start up a forum for opensuse, www.opensuse.us . I emailed novell's legal division and recieved permission to use the opensuse logo. I realize that opensuse.org will eventually "probably" have forums, but I too like to have a place where the information can't be randomly changed. Don't get me wrong, I think that the wiki admins do a great job of keeping track of things, but on a personal note, I hate it when something i write gets re-written by someone else. I run several forums, and they are a great way of "storing" information for retrieval, and google loves to index them making a websearch return some useful links. I'm not sure how a wiki works in that regards, but when you keep "changing" the page. googles index of the page might not match the actual current one.. if you lucky, google "might" have a cached version of the one it indexed... and the final purpose of it all of course is to have the information readily and quickly available for someone looking for it in the first place ;)
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
Andreas wrote: > Guess what? I couldn't care less about another email-address or not. I don't care neither, but if some people do... > > What I care about is that I virtually can't find any information on > opensuse.org that goes beyond how to download the latest release. I agree with you that there are not enough pages on the wiki. and than find them is difficult. so I try to find a better way. but it's difficult. In fact the best way I have found yet is the google link there: http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation http://www.google.fr/search?hl=fr&q=site%3Aopensuse.org&btnG=Recherche+Google&meta= and I try to write doc, but, sorry I write much more in french than in english :-) http://fr.opensuse.org/Utilisateur:Jdd but don't forget opensuse is very young :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
jdd wrote: > [...] > > First, I don't really like the "Leadership" word. I don't > see me as a leader (for the fr wiki I'm sysop of), that is > my opinion is only important if it's the only one :-) - else > I try to follow the majority will. > > second, sysop needs at least some admin rights (to be able > to edit the front page, for example), and this can only be > done by Novel. > > third, the forum stuff is a totally other beast, it needs > admin rights at the server level (and the relevant > knowledge), this is not to be done by volunteers. > [...] jdd, I think you didn't get my point. I was talking about "leaders", not about system admins, moderators, sys ops, maintainers or whatever. Don't take it personally, but I (that's of course only my opinion, others might have a very different opinion) would not consider you as a "leader". Cheers, Th. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
Andreas wrote: > [...] Another thing: I find a > page, see that it has already been translated and move on to another > page. The next day I happen to visit that same page again, it looks the > same, only the link to the translated page is suddenly gone. What kind > crap is that? No matter if a wiki (and opensuse is a wiki, right?) is an > ever-evolving thing or not. As a user I prefer some stability. When I > visit a webpage I expect to find it again tomorrow, even more so when > it's a corporate webpage. And I get annoyed when one of the main pages > changes daily, like it happened with > http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation. Well, it's a wiki, isn't it? And from my point of view, wikis have assets as well as drawbacks. You describe one of the drawbacks. I have made quite a lot of negative experiences with wikis as more or less everybody is able to change the pages. One day you add something, the next day it's gone. One day you fix a description in the wiki (and you really know what you're doing there), the next day somebody has removed your fix and replaced it with the old (and wrong) text because he thought he knew better. And so on... I like the idea that everybody can contribute, but wikis also need some sort of "quality control", some "stability" as you describe it. I (that's my personal opinion) would much prefer a managed system over a wiki, but I guess there are not enough resources to achieve something like that. Cheers, Th. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
houghi wrote: > [...] > > I disagree. People who have a login at Novell/openSUSE should get an email > adress as an extra. > At this moment there is nobody, exept suse.de, who can speak for > openSUSE.org I disagree with that. I have an opinion which I can express whether I have an opensuse.org email address or not. This, from my point of view, is absolutely irrelevant. If everybody has an opensuse.org email address, it's maybe some kind of marketing and advertisement for opensuse and SUSE Linux, but nothing more. I would not consider somebody speaking for the whole community just because he has an opensuse.org email address. And by judging emails on this mailing list, I am really glad that (at least at the moment) not everybody can get such an address. I think some people with such an address might (unfortunately) also shed some bad light onto the openSUSE community and SUSE Linux... Unfortunately, this discussion has again drifted away from the important things (I personally do not consider opensuse.org email addresses as important). By reading Amr Hamdy's email again (MSG-ID <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> this morning), I think that the idea of a TODO list (for details, see one of my previous emails in this thread) might help to solve some problems and to get more people involved, starting with some simple tasks cleared within half an hour. At least such a list, regularly sent to this mailing list (or others?), might provide a starting point. However, it would require somebody managing the TODO list. And no, unfortunately I don't have the overview and time to manage something like that. Cheers, Th. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
Am Dienstag, den 09.05.2006, 13:30 -0500 schrieb Dave Crouse: > I did start up a forum for opensuse, > www.opensuse.us . it's in my bookmarks :) > Don't get me wrong, I think that the wiki admins > do a great job of keeping track of things, but on a personal note, I hate it > when something i write gets re-written by someone else. I would like to have more control over "my" article too, but then again, the dynamics of a wiki usually plays out just fine. As I understand it, a "critical mass" of active contributors is vital for a wiki to actually work. Maybe that is part of the problems the opensuse wiki has. > I run several forums, and they are a great way of "storing" information for [...] -- Andreas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
Am Dienstag, den 09.05.2006, 20:54 +0200 schrieb jdd: [snip] > but don't forget opensuse is very young :-) And I have no doubt that it's gonna get better :) -- Andreas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[opensuse] Looking for a certain Sebastien D.
Hi, as some of you may remember, we gave out vouchers for a physical 10.1 box at FOSDEM 2006 in Brussels. I'm preparing the shipment of these boxes, and I have a voucher with an address which I can only partially read: Sebastien rue de 196 7020 Mons Belgium The email address is unfortunately completely unreadable. Dear Sebastien, I hope you read this list, please contact me directly with your full address ;-) And thanks to the rest for the honest efforts of writing legible. cheers, Sonja -- Sonja Krause-Harder ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Research & Development SUSE Linux Products GmbH - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[opensuse] Speed Issues with 9.3 vs 10.0 on x86_64 arch? Or What?
Hey everyone -- First of all, I apologize if this is an inappropriate forum for this... but perhaps someone has an idea... So, we installed a new cluster here with some Athlon 64 machines... and we're finding that these new machines are quite a bit slower than our old AMD64 test machine... So I ran lmbench 3.0 on these machines to see if I could find some of the bottlenecks -- and came up with the following: Two machines were tested -- CT4 and CT115: CT4 is an opteron 1.8 with a 9.3 normal install. CT115 is an Athlon 64 3400+ (clock at 2400 Ghz) with a diskless install (and we've tried the same hardware with a normal non-diskless install and the results are simular...) So some of the basic results were what we'd expect... numbers were better on CT115: Processor, Processes - times in microseconds - smaller is better -- Host OS Mhz null null open slct sig sig fork exec sh call I/O stat clos TCP inst hndl proc proc proc - - ct4 Linux 2.6.4-5 1786 0.10 0.39 4.46 5.09 15.2 0.31 1.22 115. 480. 2886 ct115 Linux 2.6.16. 2410 0.07 0.13 1.42 2.17 9.29 0.19 1.07 113. 393. 4223 Float/Int, etc.. numbers blew the CT4 machine too... But then we get to some of the context switching tests for example: Context switching - times in microseconds - smaller is better - Host OS 2p/0K 2p/16K 2p/64K 8p/16K 8p/64K 16p/16K 16p/64K ctxsw ctxsw ctxsw ctxsw ctxsw ctxsw ctxsw - - -- -- -- -- -- --- --- ct4 Linux 2.6.4-5 0.5200 0.6600 5.2300 2.3500 5.7400 2.4800018.0 ct115 Linux 2.6.16. 0.5400 0.5800 3.1800 1.8900 26.0 3.8300049.5 After we get to 8p/64K and above, the numbers are quite bad as you can see... And the Bcopy and memory numbers: *Local* Communication bandwidths in MB/s - bigger is better - HostOS Pipe AFTCP File Mmap Bcopy Bcopy Mem Mem UNIX reread reread (libc) (hand) read write - - -- -- -- -- - ct4 Linux 2.6.4-5 1077 1149 520. 1136.2 2453.4 938.2 938.6 2427 1360. ct115 Linux 2.6.16. 1798 2062 269. 259.3K 1489.2 391.6 389.4 1483 578.8 So, where should I be looking here in order to get these machines up to where they should be? Anyone have any ideas to help me overcome this issue? Is it hardware or software? Would a memory issue cause this? Even though they both have 1Gb PC3200 memory, CT4 has ECC memory and CT116 just has regular el-cheapo Corsair memory. Would that make a difference here? Thanks! Shaun - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Speed Issues with 9.3 vs 10.0 on x86_64 arch? Or What?
On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 02:16:55PM -0700, Shaun Q wrote: > Hey everyone -- > > First of all, I apologize if this is an inappropriate forum for this... > but perhaps someone has an idea... The better list is suse-linux-e. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Speed Issues with 9.3 vs 10.0 on x86_64 arch? Or What?
On Tue, 9 May 2006, houghi wrote: On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 02:16:55PM -0700, Shaun Q wrote: Hey everyone -- First of all, I apologize if this is an inappropriate forum for this... but perhaps someone has an idea... The better list is suse-linux-e. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Great, Thanks! :) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Andreas wrote: > Am Dienstag, den 09.05.2006, 13:36 +0200 schrieb Pascal Bleser: > [snipped lot of stuff about deserving an email address] > > I can't believe you guys are arguing about who should get what kind of > email-address. How about we have Novell create a new mailing list: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > has a nice ring to it, does it not? The point wasn't so much about the email address or not, it was more about a structure, process, whatever to try to get discussions into a somewhat more effective path. Up to now many threads get somehow diluted into sticking on 2-3 unimportant details, ad nauseum, making the actual topic irrelevant and in the end, nothing agreed upon, nothing decided, 1 step forward, 2 step backwards. Too bad I had to try to explain "meritocracy" down to nitty gritty of one example (opensuse.org emails, in this case). Seems that exactly the same thing happened again. > Well, I just started contributing to opensuse by translating a couple of > pages on the wiki (oh, darn, I should post that to the opensuse-wiki > mailing list I guess), so according to you I would not (yet) be eligible > for an opensuse email address, but if it was up to houghi, I would > actually get one. > Guess what? I couldn't care less about another email-address or not. What's the problem, if you don't care about it ? ;) > What I care about is that I virtually can't find any information on > opensuse.org that goes beyond how to download the latest release. Right. And it's probably the biggest challenge as far as a large wiki is concerned: how to organize and categorize pages to find them easily, say, on looking at 2 or 3 (index) pages at most. Not that the challenge is wiki-specific, it's just related to documentation in general. Indexing is an art of its own. [...] >> Really, what's wrong or "ugly" with that ? >> Does it sound like apartheid ? ;) > > that was totally out of line. smiley or not. Ummm... well, you're picking a single line totally out of context. Thank you for trying to make me look like an ass, that's a particularly nice and appreciated move. >> BTW, do I sound arrogant or harsh to you ? Well, I'm trying to push >> things forward and at some point it involves making statements and/or >> speaking on behalf of others, either to be agreed upon or to trigger >> reactions, discussions, decisions and actions (in that order ;D). > > No, not arrogant, but losing yourself (and some really good points in > your original posting) in imho totally fruitless discussions about some > really. really, really (may I say it again: really!) unimportant things. Probably. I guess I just shouldn't have reacted to some replies in the first place that were picking single, unimportant elements of the mail and spending too much time on explaining those until they become irrelevant. I just wonder whether it's tactics or not. I'll try not to fall into the same trap again. How about giving your opinion about the "really good points" in the original posting ? Maybe it's still possible to not dismiss the whole thread just because of that. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEYRLBr3NMWliFcXcRAhAIAJ495ef/AHOxx7G018MC4ngpO4SG8QCggk3+ 9uC2P2vNFuIyBzUJ0BNKUx0= =Z08N -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
Am Dienstag, den 09.05.2006, 19:53 +0100 schrieb Thomas Hertweck: > Well, it's a wiki, isn't it? That's one of the things I didn't understand right away. It's not that long ago that I visited opensuse.org the first time, and I did *not* know that it was a wiki, I assumed it was a corporate website, like a successor of suse.com. > And from my point of view, wikis have > assets as well as drawbacks. You describe one of the drawbacks. I have > made quite a lot of negative experiences with wikis as more or less > everybody is able to change the pages. One day you add something, the > next day it's gone. One day you fix a description in the wiki (and you > really know what you're doing there), the next day somebody has removed > your fix and replaced it with the old (and wrong) text because he > thought he knew better. And so on... I like the idea that everybody can > contribute, but wikis also need some sort of "quality control", some > "stability" as you describe it. The idea of "protected" pages like the opensuse front page is a step in the right direction I think. Drawbacks aside, I can see the advantages a wiki can have over a traditionally maintained website. I used them myself by making some quick changes to articles. > I (that's my personal opinion) would > much prefer a managed system over a wiki, but I guess there are not > enough resources to achieve something like that. I really don't know if that's the problem. The greatest advantage of a wiki is imho how easily people can add their contributions, which in turn makes them a lot more connected to the particular community. -- Andreas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 12:08:01AM +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote: > How about giving your opinion about the "really good points" in the > original posting ? Maybe it's still possible to not dismiss the whole > thread just because of that. The good points are ignored, because otherwise you get a mentelaty. The bad points are forcefully and arrogantly defended by you. So what do you want? That we just all happily agree with you? Or perhaps I am again too stupid and don't understand things. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 houghi wrote: > On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 12:08:01AM +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote: > >> How about giving your opinion about the "really good points" in the >> original posting ? Maybe it's still possible to not dismiss the whole >> thread just because of that. > > The good points are ignored, because otherwise you get a > mentelaty. The bad points are forcefully and arrogantly defended by you. > So what do you want? That we just all happily agree with you? > Or perhaps I am again too stupid and don't understand things. I'd rather say you're manipulating. You're stating the total opposite of what I wrote in my mails. WTF are you trying to do ? - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEYSIur3NMWliFcXcRAhB1AJwOxbp/c9KSBUb/kLGxDeGpMDdHAQCgtd2G LmsCbydVFrFMoqjJQtMz8Ec= =skBT -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] We, the community
Am Mittwoch, den 10.05.2006, 00:08 +0200 schrieb Pascal Bleser: > The point wasn't so much about the email address or not, it was more > about a structure, process, whatever to try to get discussions into a > somewhat more effective path. > Up to now many threads get somehow diluted into sticking on 2-3 > unimportant details, ad nauseum, making the actual topic irrelevant and > in the end, nothing agreed upon, nothing decided, 1 step forward, 2 step > backwards. and at least one step sideways. That's what happened to this particular thread, and after seeing that you made quite some valid points with your original mail that opened this thread, it seemed to be leading nowhere with the email-discussion. I was hoping to set you guys "on the right track" again. > Too bad I had to try to explain "meritocracy" down to nitty gritty of > one example (opensuse.org emails, in this case). Well yeah, I never heard (or saw) that word either :( > Seems that exactly the same thing happened again. yep, and the discussion thread deserved better imho. > > Well, I just started contributing to opensuse by translating a couple of > > pages on the wiki (oh, darn, I should post that to the opensuse-wiki > > mailing list I guess), so according to you I would not (yet) be eligible > > for an opensuse email address, but if it was up to houghi, I would > > actually get one. > > Guess what? I couldn't care less about another email-address or not. > > What's the problem, if you don't care about it ? ;) see above. > > What I care about is that I virtually can't find any information on > > opensuse.org that goes beyond how to download the latest release. > > Right. And it's probably the biggest challenge as far as a large wiki is > concerned: how to organize and categorize pages to find them easily, > say, on looking at 2 or 3 (index) pages at most. > Not that the challenge is wiki-specific, it's just related to > documentation in general. Indexing is an art of its own. I couldn't agree more. And I certainly hope we have the right kind of artists for that job. > >> Really, what's wrong or "ugly" with that ? > >> Does it sound like apartheid ? ;) > > > > that was totally out of line. smiley or not. > > Ummm... well, you're picking a single line totally out of context. > Thank you for trying to make me look like an ass, that's a particularly > nice and appreciated move. you are very welcome ;). And Apartheid is one of the *very* few trigger-words that are not to be used in any other context than their own historical one. period. > >> BTW, do I sound arrogant or harsh to you ? Well, I'm trying to push > >> things forward and at some point it involves making statements and/or > >> speaking on behalf of others, either to be agreed upon or to trigger > >> reactions, discussions, decisions and actions (in that order ;D). > > > > No, not arrogant, but losing yourself (and some really good points in > > your original posting) in imho totally fruitless discussions about some > > really. really, really (may I say it again: really!) unimportant things. > > Probably. I guess I just shouldn't have reacted to some replies in the > first place that were picking single, unimportant elements of the mail > and spending too much time on explaining those until they become irrelevant. > I just wonder whether it's tactics or not. I'll try not to fall into the > same trap again. It sometimes looks like it is intentional, yet I strongly believe it isn't so. It's just very easy to get stuck in detail discussions only because you tried to explain your statement with an example. > How about giving your opinion about the "really good points" in the > original posting ? Maybe it's still possible to not dismiss the whole > thread just because of that. I am far from dismissing it! On the contrary, I support a lot what you are trying to achieve, and being one of the beneficiaries of your contributions in form of an entire software repository I sure do appreciate your work. Let's get to the things you mentioned in your posting: (I only mention the ones I have an opinion about) - - we have to get more in control ourselves, commit as dedicated volunteers on as many tasks as possible yes, absolutely. After we have identified these tasks. - we have to think about what we need from Novell/SUSE to do that (e.g. admin privileges, contacts, infrastructure, documentation, sources, whatever) well, that - I hope - will come natural once we find out what we want to do and once we are working on the projects. Example: If someone actually works on an article explaining in depth the boot process of, say, suse 10.1, I expect Novell to help by opening their own internal docu about it. - we have to develop our own initiatives I think there are enough larger and smaller tasks at hand. Let's worry about initiative when it's needed
[opensuse] Growing a Community (Was We, the Community)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I had written a community page with many of the same point that started this long thread. I did not post it because I wanted a more pro-active way to acknowledge, we are a community of many different interests and motivations. For me the greatest point is knowing I have some how some way assitited with extending/growing from present to future in a positive way. We some how need to harness all our differences and views to promote and further SUSE Linux. Sure we are going to have our ups and downs / fights and me toos, all this is our opportunity to grow our cause. We need to gain a more opportunity based growth. It seems we have a lot of inner strugle to get past our differences and truely see them as the great opportunity that they are. We really need to look at every thing and find a way to convert it to growth. Rigth now we are creating stumbling blocks to our future. Being a young community is much like when we were children. We seem to not see the bigger picture. We have our disagreements and wanderings that seem to push us in the wrong direction instead of changing what we can and ignoring the erges/pulls to do something other than succeed. We are our own worst enimies and friends. Please let us focus on improving things and taking our great differences and using the as motivation to make changes to our community and furthering our cause. We want SUSE Linux to be the greatest Distro! So instead of finding fault, may we say, "How can I turn this into...?" Which benifits the community. Rather than continueing the OT thread.. "How can I get this back on track?" We all have the choice to either further the cause or drown in the water/barried in the dust we create. Sorry for this rant. I just see the great opportunity we have with such diverse resources. Thanks, - -- Boyd Gerber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://quantumlab.net/pine_privacy_guard/ iD8DBQFEYTKwVtBjDid73eYRAg/NAJ0eGv6UbIW/CqjazpjUTz/wMV2eZwCdFQzU AUmeoy920DaUqOvEKjCiCpQ= =VPkq -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[opensuse] Help with iFolder
Hey guys I know this isn't the site, but I need to know where I can get help, I have installed iFolder Server and now ever domain I am host that has a dir called admin comes up as the iFolder Login. When I try to log in with the defualt password I am get and error 500. I need help one to see if can lock ifolder to one domain and two why I can't log in. Thanks and sorry to post here. Payne -- Do you know why we fall Master Wayne...so we can learn to get up. Alfred - Batman Begins - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
