Re: [opensuse] antivirus

[CF]

John B Pace wrote:
> So, it is like it used to be, Carlos? Really no need for antivirus
> software?  Interesting that the windows machines are being protected
> from themselve. I assume some distros must be weaker than others? Or why
> would clamav or antivir (Avira GmbH) been created. I'm probably sticking
> my foot in my mouth or worse my head where the sun doesn't bother
> shining, but I'm really curious as to clamav and antivir. You don't have
> to answer this if you don't want, Carlos. I can check it out! Thanks!
> John
> 

These antivirus programs are made mainly for scanning attached files in
e-mails sent by windows computers. Although some virus eventually
included in those e-mails are not able to infect your Linux operating
system, whenever you send them to someone else they might infect others
computers that receive them. Eventually, you may use these programs to
scan windows computers in your local network.
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Re: [opensuse] antivirus

[James Knott]

John B Pace wrote:

Just a little note here. In my few weeks of searching for a distro, I
tried Ubuntu also. I'm not knocking it as every distro has positives and
negatives, though I like this and Debian the best. What I didn't like
about Ubuntu is that one signed in as root and then one would have to
create another user and remember to use it, though there was probably a
way to change the su to user and visa versa.


I thought it was the first user could do extra stuff than a regular user 
could do, including setting the root password.  That first user does not 
have full root priveleges.  Any addition users are normal users.  So, 
you might call that first user "admin" or similar.


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Re: [opensuse] antivirus

[Rajko M.]

On Tuesday 22 January 2008 07:11:52 am John B Pace wrote:
>  What I didn't like
> about Ubuntu is that one signed in as root and then one would have to
> create another user and remember to use it, though there was probably a
> way to change the su to user and visa versa.

Did you installed Ubuntu? 
From above description it seems that you have used only Live CD. 
When installed Ubuntu is forcing use of 'sudo' which is pain of its kind on 
the computer where untrusted users have no access, so user can open console, 
run 'su -', give root password and keep that opened for as long as one wants. 

In the openSUSE KDE GUI, program 'konsole' has different background color for 
root user, and recently it was added that the prompt for root is marked with 
red color (this is system wide), besides common '#'. So there is many 
warnings that you act as root. 

To add to all of that even more, my normal user has white text on black 
background, while root has system default black text on light yellow. With 
all that it is not easy to make mistake and run something as root that should 
not be run that way, without hassle of running sudo all the time. 

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Re: [opensuse] antivirus

[John B Pace]

Just a little note here. In my few weeks of searching for a distro, I
tried Ubuntu also. I'm not knocking it as every distro has positives and
negatives, though I like this and Debian the best. What I didn't like
about Ubuntu is that one signed in as root and then one would have to
create another user and remember to use it, though there was probably a
way to change the su to user and visa versa.

Anyway, thanks for everybody's input on this one. I got a bit of an
education from some of the conversations. Also, this is a good friendly
list. I appreciate that also. I think I'll be sticking with openSuse.

John

The Monday 2008-01-21 at 08:47 -0500, John B Pace wrote:

> So, it is like it used to be, Carlos?

Huh, I could have missed this out of thread email.

> Really no need for antivirus
> software?  Interesting that the windows machines are being protected
> from themselve. I assume some distros must be weaker than others? Or
why
> would clamav or antivir (Avira GmbH) been created. I'm probably
sticking
> my foot in my mouth or worse my head where the sun doesn't bother
> shining, but I'm really curious as to clamav and antivir. You don't
have
> to answer this if you don't want, Carlos. I can check it out! Thanks!
> John

Other people have already said what I could have said and even expanded 
what I intended to say :-)

I'll add something. The problem in Linux is not "virus", but other
types 
of malware, like worms, rootkits, attacks, perhaps trojans... Most of
them 
are fighted by firewalls, proper software maintenance (ie, closing fast 
the holes as they are discovered), good practices (not installing
anything 
from anywhere, for instance).

It is possible that an email contains code, but in Linux mail clients
do 
not execute code without you knowing - and would execute as user, not 
root, so the damage would be limited. But innocuous files like gif
images 
have been known to trigger holes in some software (now and then a hole
of 
this type is closed by an update). Or a pdf file can contain scripts
which 
are executed by acrobat. Some of this things could be detected by an 
antivirus scanning email.

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Re: [opensuse] antivirus

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



The Monday 2008-01-21 at 08:47 -0500, John B Pace wrote:


So, it is like it used to be, Carlos?


Huh, I could have missed this out of thread email.


Really no need for antivirus
software?  Interesting that the windows machines are being protected
from themselve. I assume some distros must be weaker than others? Or why
would clamav or antivir (Avira GmbH) been created. I'm probably sticking
my foot in my mouth or worse my head where the sun doesn't bother
shining, but I'm really curious as to clamav and antivir. You don't have
to answer this if you don't want, Carlos. I can check it out! Thanks!
John


Other people have already said what I could have said and even expanded 
what I intended to say :-)


I'll add something. The problem in Linux is not "virus", but other types 
of malware, like worms, rootkits, attacks, perhaps trojans... Most of them 
are fighted by firewalls, proper software maintenance (ie, closing fast 
the holes as they are discovered), good practices (not installing anything 
from anywhere, for instance).


It is possible that an email contains code, but in Linux mail clients do 
not execute code without you knowing - and would execute as user, not 
root, so the damage would be limited. But innocuous files like gif images 
have been known to trigger holes in some software (now and then a hole of 
this type is closed by an update). Or a pdf file can contain scripts which 
are executed by acrobat. Some of this things could be detected by an 
antivirus scanning email.


- -- 
Cheers,

   Carlos E. R.
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux)

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Re: [opensuse] antivirus

[Aaron Kulkis]

John B Pace wrote:

On Mon, 2008-01-21 at 10:36 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

John B Pace wrote:

So, it is like it used to be, Carlos? Really no need for antivirus
software?

Non-root users still don't have root abilities, so, no, of
course not.

Do downloaded files suddenly make themselves executable,
without you chmod'ing them?

The security model hasn't changed since 1970, BECAUSE IT
DOESN'T NEED TO BE!

Remember, the Unix security model was designed with the presumption
that ANY user might accidentally do something utterly stupid,
and so the whole system was designed to protect users from
each others' stupidity.


 > Interesting that the windows machines are being protected

from themselve.

What cave have you been hiding in for the last 15 years?

 > I assume some distros must be weaker than others? Or why

would clamav or antivir (Avira GmbH) been created.

To weed out Microsoft viruses.

Sheesh, John, name one Linux virus.

The last outbreak of malware in the *nix community was
over 20 years ago...and that was due to buffer overruns
(which have since been corrected) on hardware so obsolete
that you can't even find in operation any more (VAX-11
and Motorola 680x0 CPUs)

 > I'm probably sticking

my foot in my mouth or worse my head where the sun doesn't bother
shining, but I'm really curious as to clamav and antivir. You don't have
to answer this if you don't want, Carlos. I can check it out! Thanks!
John

They're for the purpose of protecting Windows clients
from malware-infested Windows viruses.





> I can't recall any viruses, malware, but then I've probably
> only put 90 hours into linux altogether, which is why I
> introduced myself as an older dummy.

Oh, I see.

I thought you meant you used to use Unix way back a long time ago.

>  What did you mean about being a non-root user.

The system administrators account is user ID 0, and by default,
named "root" ... you can change this, but it will cause problems
if a program checks the user name rather than the user ID number.

> I'm normally no-root except when I need to be in root. I

That's good.  Never do anything as root unless you need to.

Even software that I grab off of websites, do all of my
downloading from my normal user account.  I just use the
su command to change user ID to root just to install
the software, and then end the su session.

> see that you just came on board as far as downloaded files.
> That solution was taken care of a good deal of time ago this
> morning with some excellent answers. There were no "of course
> not." That phrase should be left out of conversation about
> discussing solutions. It sounds like old linux answers by
> those that think they may have something over the rest of us.
> I don't and won't put up with that crap. I don't need your

I misunderstood what you were saying in your original post.

I thought you mean "old linux user" as someone with
experience in this operating system from long ago,
not someone who is getting grey hair.  My mistake.

> preaching with your capitalizing either. In fact, I don't
> need you disrespect at all, so keep it to yourself because
> I surely don't care what you say or what others say to
> my response.

No problem.


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Re: [opensuse] antivirus

[Aaron Kulkis]

John B Pace wrote:

I missed this one earlier. "What kind of cave did I live in for the past
15 years?" First, my most disagreeable person, that's really non of your
business. Now that you know it is none of your business, I haven't been
at all involved with linux got the past 20 years and am just trying to
grasp some concepts and some understanding of it without asses like you
coming along, not reading all of the messages and making judgements with
old time linux language that doe drive users away. There were a lot more
of your stinking ilk 20 years ago and thankfully very few now. So now I
put this garbage to rest and regret that I can't tell your geek head
this in person, face to face. Like I previously said, I just don't care
about crap like you. I forgive easily, but I doubt if you have the real
guts to go back, see where you were wrong, and apologize. Get it? Or am
I out of your league because I can sure get way out of your league if
you want to.  John B.   P.S. Every addition that you made wasn't an
addition. It had already been said, but in a decent manner called human
to human. Not with smart ass snide remarks.


when you presented yourself as an "old linux user", I didn't
understand that to mean "new linux user with grey hair"

So, I naturally interpreted your statement as meaing that
you had prior experience with Unix, and were stating that
you were .. for lack of a better term, coming back to it.



On Mon, 2008-01-21 at 15:53 -0500, John B Pace wrote:

I can't recall any viruses, malware, but then I've probably only put 90
hours into linux altogether, which is why I introduced myself as an
older dummy. What did you mean about being a non-root user. I'm normally
no-root except when I need to be in root. I see that you just came on
board as far as downloaded files. That solution was taken care of a good
deal of time ago this morning with some excellent answers. There were no
"of course not." That phrase should be left out of conversation about
discussing solutions. It sounds like old linux answers by those that
think they may have something over the rest of us. I don't and won't put
up with that crap. I don't need your preaching with your capitalizing
either. In fact, I don't need you disrespect at all, so keep it to
yourself because I surely don't care what you say or what others say to
my response.

John
On Mon, 2008-01-21 at 10:36 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

John B Pace wrote:

So, it is like it used to be, Carlos? Really no need for antivirus
software?

Non-root users still don't have root abilities, so, no, of
course not.

Do downloaded files suddenly make themselves executable,
without you chmod'ing them?

The security model hasn't changed since 1970, BECAUSE IT
DOESN'T NEED TO BE!

Remember, the Unix security model was designed with the presumption
that ANY user might accidentally do something utterly stupid,
and so the whole system was designed to protect users from
each others' stupidity.


 > Interesting that the windows machines are being protected

from themselve.

What cave have you been hiding in for the last 15 years?

 > I assume some distros must be weaker than others? Or why

would clamav or antivir (Avira GmbH) been created.

To weed out Microsoft viruses.

Sheesh, John, name one Linux virus.

The last outbreak of malware in the *nix community was
over 20 years ago...and that was due to buffer overruns
(which have since been corrected) on hardware so obsolete
that you can't even find in operation any more (VAX-11
and Motorola 680x0 CPUs)

 > I'm probably sticking

my foot in my mouth or worse my head where the sun doesn't bother
shining, but I'm really curious as to clamav and antivir. You don't have
to answer this if you don't want, Carlos. I can check it out! Thanks!
John

They're for the purpose of protecting Windows clients
from malware-infested Windows viruses.








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Re: [opensuse] antivirus

[John B Pace]

I missed this one earlier. "What kind of cave did I live in for the past
15 years?" First, my most disagreeable person, that's really non of your
business. Now that you know it is none of your business, I haven't been
at all involved with linux got the past 20 years and am just trying to
grasp some concepts and some understanding of it without asses like you
coming along, not reading all of the messages and making judgements with
old time linux language that doe drive users away. There were a lot more
of your stinking ilk 20 years ago and thankfully very few now. So now I
put this garbage to rest and regret that I can't tell your geek head
this in person, face to face. Like I previously said, I just don't care
about crap like you. I forgive easily, but I doubt if you have the real
guts to go back, see where you were wrong, and apologize. Get it? Or am
I out of your league because I can sure get way out of your league if
you want to.  John B.   P.S. Every addition that you made wasn't an
addition. It had already been said, but in a decent manner called human
to human. Not with smart ass snide remarks.

On Mon, 2008-01-21 at 15:53 -0500, John B Pace wrote:
> I can't recall any viruses, malware, but then I've probably only put 90
> hours into linux altogether, which is why I introduced myself as an
> older dummy. What did you mean about being a non-root user. I'm normally
> no-root except when I need to be in root. I see that you just came on
> board as far as downloaded files. That solution was taken care of a good
> deal of time ago this morning with some excellent answers. There were no
> "of course not." That phrase should be left out of conversation about
> discussing solutions. It sounds like old linux answers by those that
> think they may have something over the rest of us. I don't and won't put
> up with that crap. I don't need your preaching with your capitalizing
> either. In fact, I don't need you disrespect at all, so keep it to
> yourself because I surely don't care what you say or what others say to
> my response.
> 
> John
> On Mon, 2008-01-21 at 10:36 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> > John B Pace wrote:
> > > So, it is like it used to be, Carlos? Really no need for antivirus
> > > software?
> > 
> > Non-root users still don't have root abilities, so, no, of
> > course not.
> > 
> > Do downloaded files suddenly make themselves executable,
> > without you chmod'ing them?
> > 
> > The security model hasn't changed since 1970, BECAUSE IT
> > DOESN'T NEED TO BE!
> > 
> > Remember, the Unix security model was designed with the presumption
> > that ANY user might accidentally do something utterly stupid,
> > and so the whole system was designed to protect users from
> > each others' stupidity.
> > 
> > 
> >  > Interesting that the windows machines are being protected
> > > from themselve.
> > 
> > What cave have you been hiding in for the last 15 years?
> > 
> >  > I assume some distros must be weaker than others? Or why
> > > would clamav or antivir (Avira GmbH) been created.
> > 
> > To weed out Microsoft viruses.
> > 
> > Sheesh, John, name one Linux virus.
> > 
> > The last outbreak of malware in the *nix community was
> > over 20 years ago...and that was due to buffer overruns
> > (which have since been corrected) on hardware so obsolete
> > that you can't even find in operation any more (VAX-11
> > and Motorola 680x0 CPUs)
> > 
> >  > I'm probably sticking
> > > my foot in my mouth or worse my head where the sun doesn't bother
> > > shining, but I'm really curious as to clamav and antivir. You don't have
> > > to answer this if you don't want, Carlos. I can check it out! Thanks!
> > > John
> > 
> > They're for the purpose of protecting Windows clients
> > from malware-infested Windows viruses.
> > 
> > 
> 

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Re: [opensuse] antivirus

[John B Pace]

I can't recall any viruses, malware, but then I've probably only put 90
hours into linux altogether, which is why I introduced myself as an
older dummy. What did you mean about being a non-root user. I'm normally
no-root except when I need to be in root. I see that you just came on
board as far as downloaded files. That solution was taken care of a good
deal of time ago this morning with some excellent answers. There were no
"of course not." That phrase should be left out of conversation about
discussing solutions. It sounds like old linux answers by those that
think they may have something over the rest of us. I don't and won't put
up with that crap. I don't need your preaching with your capitalizing
either. In fact, I don't need you disrespect at all, so keep it to
yourself because I surely don't care what you say or what others say to
my response.

John
On Mon, 2008-01-21 at 10:36 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> John B Pace wrote:
> > So, it is like it used to be, Carlos? Really no need for antivirus
> > software?
> 
> Non-root users still don't have root abilities, so, no, of
> course not.
> 
> Do downloaded files suddenly make themselves executable,
> without you chmod'ing them?
> 
> The security model hasn't changed since 1970, BECAUSE IT
> DOESN'T NEED TO BE!
> 
> Remember, the Unix security model was designed with the presumption
> that ANY user might accidentally do something utterly stupid,
> and so the whole system was designed to protect users from
> each others' stupidity.
> 
> 
>  > Interesting that the windows machines are being protected
> > from themselve.
> 
> What cave have you been hiding in for the last 15 years?
> 
>  > I assume some distros must be weaker than others? Or why
> > would clamav or antivir (Avira GmbH) been created.
> 
> To weed out Microsoft viruses.
> 
> Sheesh, John, name one Linux virus.
> 
> The last outbreak of malware in the *nix community was
> over 20 years ago...and that was due to buffer overruns
> (which have since been corrected) on hardware so obsolete
> that you can't even find in operation any more (VAX-11
> and Motorola 680x0 CPUs)
> 
>  > I'm probably sticking
> > my foot in my mouth or worse my head where the sun doesn't bother
> > shining, but I'm really curious as to clamav and antivir. You don't have
> > to answer this if you don't want, Carlos. I can check it out! Thanks!
> > John
> 
> They're for the purpose of protecting Windows clients
> from malware-infested Windows viruses.
> 
> 

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Re: [opensuse] antivirus

[Aaron Kulkis]

John B Pace wrote:

So, it is like it used to be, Carlos? Really no need for antivirus
software?


Non-root users still don't have root abilities, so, no, of
course not.

Do downloaded files suddenly make themselves executable,
without you chmod'ing them?

The security model hasn't changed since 1970, BECAUSE IT
DOESN'T NEED TO BE!

Remember, the Unix security model was designed with the presumption
that ANY user might accidentally do something utterly stupid,
and so the whole system was designed to protect users from
each others' stupidity.


> Interesting that the windows machines are being protected

from themselve.


What cave have you been hiding in for the last 15 years?

> I assume some distros must be weaker than others? Or why

would clamav or antivir (Avira GmbH) been created.


To weed out Microsoft viruses.

Sheesh, John, name one Linux virus.

The last outbreak of malware in the *nix community was
over 20 years ago...and that was due to buffer overruns
(which have since been corrected) on hardware so obsolete
that you can't even find in operation any more (VAX-11
and Motorola 680x0 CPUs)

> I'm probably sticking

my foot in my mouth or worse my head where the sun doesn't bother
shining, but I'm really curious as to clamav and antivir. You don't have
to answer this if you don't want, Carlos. I can check it out! Thanks!
John


They're for the purpose of protecting Windows clients
from malware-infested Windows viruses.


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Re: [opensuse] antivirus

[Joe Sloan]

John B Pace wrote:
> So, it is like it used to be, Carlos? Really no need for antivirus
> software?  Interesting that the windows machines are being protected
> from themselve. I assume some distros must be weaker than others? Or why
> would clamav or antivir (Avira GmbH) been created. I'm probably sticking
> my foot in my mouth or worse my head where the sun doesn't bother
> shining, but I'm really curious as to clamav and antivir. You don't have
> to answer this if you don't want, Carlos. I can check it out! Thanks!

As I think Carlos hinted, clamav and the other linux AV players exist in
large part to protect windows clients whose files are stored on linux
servers.

Our company runs clamav on our (suse powered) mail servers since we have
thousands of internal users, most of them being windows users who need
virus protection.

But, clamav has evolved beyond it's windows virus roots, and now helps
us block phishing scams, PDF spam and other sorts of spam and malware.

Joe

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Re: [opensuse] antivirus

[James Knott]

John B Pace wrote:

So, it is like it used to be, Carlos? Really no need for antivirus
software?  Interesting that the windows machines are being protected
from themselve. I assume some distros must be weaker than others? Or why
would clamav or antivir (Avira GmbH) been created. I'm probably sticking
my foot in my mouth or worse my head where the sun doesn't bother
shining, but I'm really curious as to clamav and antivir. You don't have
to answer this if you don't want, Carlos. I can check it out! Thanks!
John



No, it has nothing to do with distro's, though some are better than 
others.  It's the whole design of the system.  Linux, like Unix was 
designed to be multiuser and also network aware.  As a result, it has 
proper security methods.  On the other hand, Windows evolved in a single 
user, stand alone world, where security is not much of an issue. 
Further, Microsoft has done some incredibly stupid things, such as tying 
 Internet Explorer to the kernel.  This means a browser problem becomes 
an operating system problem and leaves the door wide open for malware. 
Incidentally, this was done as the result of a law suit.  They were sued 
by Netscape over bundling of IE with Windows.  MS said that was 
necessary, as IE was part of the OS.  At that time it wasn't.  IE was 
simply another app, like Netscape.  However, with the next verion of 
Windows (W98 IIRC), IE was indeed intertwined with the OS.  Other 
reasons include the fact that something is not an executable, unless 
explicitly made so.  This means that if you get a virus in your email, 
you have to save it to disk, make it executable and then run it.  It 
will not run automatically.  The list of reasons continues...



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Re: [opensuse] antivirus

[Clayton]

> So, it is like it used to be, Carlos? Really no need for antivirus
> software?  Interesting that the windows machines are being protected
> from themselve. I assume some distros must be weaker than others? Or why
> would clamav or antivir (Avira GmbH) been created. I'm probably sticking
> my foot in my mouth or worse my head where the sun doesn't bother
> shining, but I'm really curious as to clamav and antivir. You don't have
> to answer this if you don't want, Carlos. I can check it out! Thanks!


So far, there is no pressing need to scan files specifically for
Linux.  This does not mean that viruses are not possible... they are
very definitely possible, just unlikely if you are using a proply
set-up and configured Linux workstation (ie not running as root).

 The antivirus utils for Linux--- such as clamav and antivir  are
primarily to protect Windows users from themselves and to stop
mailservers from sending on virus infected emails.  If you look at
what clamav does, its primary job is to scan emails for Windows
viruses so that they are "caught" and not forwarded on to recipients
who might be using Windows.

PandaAV... a quote from their website: "The aim of Panda Antivirus for
Linux is to scan and disinfect Windows and DOS workstations connected
to a Linux server, as well as the Linux server itself."  So there is
some definite merit and use to these anti virus programs... especially
in a mixed OS networked environment... and also to clean up the rare
Linux nasty that is floating about.

C.
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