Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Talks between OpenWrt and LEDE

2016-12-22 Thread Ben Rosser 
On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 8:22 AM, Stefan Monnier 
wrote:

> Currently, LEDE has the same problem as LibreOffice, but compounded by
> the fact that most people have no idea what LEDE is, let alone that it's
> somehow related to OpenWRT.


Not only this, but LibreOffice and OpenOffice are both, well, clearly
office application suites from the name. LEDE stands for "Linux Embedded
Development Environment", which to me, doesn't really even imply "Linux
distribution". A development environment could be an IDE and some various
tools-- I'm not sure "development environment" is a great way to
characterize this project. There's also the problem that if you search for
LEDE, at the very least Google wanted to know if I'd misspelled "lead", or
if I was referring to the journalistic definition of "lede"-- it's kind of
a generic name.

While personally I like the idea of keeping the name OpenWRT, the argument
for potentially rebranding does make some sense-- but it might be a good
idea to consider other potential names too, that might be a bit less
generic? Although this might be rehashing a discussion that already
happened a number of months ago.

Ben Rosser
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Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Talks between OpenWrt and LEDE

2016-12-22 Thread Stefan Monnier 
>> - While brands have value, you can change a name without losing all the
>> brand recognition.  I'm thinking here of cases like XBMC->Kodi or
>> OpenOffice-> LibreOffice.
> I would point at OpenOffice -> LibreOffice as a failure of name changes.

There are several aspects in a name change.  E.g. whether someone who
hears the new name is likely to know what it is and that it's related to
the old name.  In the case of LibreOffice, I think this part of the name
change worked just fine: all people I know who know OpenOffice also
recognize LibreOffice as "the name as some OpenOffice-derivative".
So it does carry over the brand recognition.

Yes, there are a lot of people who still download OO, but that part of
the problem is linked to the fact that the two projects didn't merge, so
there was no effort on the OO part to educate people about the new name
and redirect them to the LibreOffice web site, doc, etc...

Currently, LEDE has the same problem as LibreOffice, but compounded by
the fact that most people have no idea what LEDE is, let alone that it's
somehow related to OpenWRT.


Stefan
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Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Talks between OpenWrt and LEDE

2016-12-22 Thread John Crispin 


On 22/12/2016 09:40, David Lang wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> 
>> - While brands have value, you can change a name without losing all the
>>  brand recognition.  I'm thinking here of cases like XBMC->Kodi or
>>  OpenOffice->LibreOffice.
> 
> I would point at OpenOffice -> LibreOffice as a failure of name changes.
> 
> David Lang

again, they did not change the name as a team but were split. if we
choose to not use owrt but some different name then a simple http
redirect can help solve the problem.

John

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Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Talks between OpenWrt and LEDE

2016-12-22 Thread David Lang 

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016, Stefan Monnier wrote:


- While brands have value, you can change a name without losing all the
 brand recognition.  I'm thinking here of cases like XBMC->Kodi or
 OpenOffice->LibreOffice.


I would point at OpenOffice -> LibreOffice as a failure of name changes.

David Lang
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Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Talks between OpenWrt and LEDE

2016-12-22 Thread David Lang 

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016, Dave Taht wrote:


On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 12:29 PM, David Lang  wrote:

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016, Kathy Giori wrote:


From a PR perspective, I strongly suggest keeping the term OpenWrt as
part of the branding of the project moving forward. It can just be
cosmetic (web site, etc.) but the name has so much history, and
positive connotation, that you don't want to lose that brand attached
to the development moving forward.



I agree, I think this is an obvious choice to make. OpenWRT has a lot of
name recognition, it would be foolish to throw that away.


Just to take the other side for rhetorical purposes, a purpose of a
re-branding exercise is to show a change in the "product" or
organisation behind it. OpenWrt is widely known... as a bleeding edge,
sometimes unstable, somewhat hard to use 3rd party firmware. DD-Wrt
and Tomato get a lot more press for some reason. So do things like
Yocto. If lede were to succeed in meeting its other goals, coherently,
preserving "lede" and moving forward as a separate project does make
sense.


I'll point out OpenOffice vs LibreOffice and the fact that years after 
development of OO has really stopped, people are still finding it and 
downloading it instead of LO (it's replacement)


there's a lot of stuff out there pointing at OpenWRT, unless you are going to 
replace all the OpenWRT stuff with pointers to LEDE, you are better off taking 
advantage of the millions of references to OpenWRT.


David Lang

Yes, the name is pointing at a product that doesn't exist any longer, but Deb 
and Ian aren't involved with Debian any longer either. At some point the fact 
that a name is known matters far more than the historical reasons for the name.

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Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Talks between OpenWrt and LEDE

2016-12-21 Thread Dana Myers 

On 12/21/2016 6:01 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote:

So maybe it's a good idea to use the (still hypothetical, but hopefully
close) merge to advertise a rename which will both aim to carry-over the
brand recognition at the same time as it sends the message that it's
something "new and better" (i.e. keep the good brand recognition and
try to shed the bad one).


Much +1 here.

Keep in mind, who is the audience of the branding? Us 
(developers/contributors?) or
consumers (that aren't developers or early adopters)? I assert the real audience
is consumers of products that incorporate "the thing".

How do we communicate the unity of developers/contributors to a production
distro without losing the value of the "mother project"?

From a very high level, this is another Linux distro evolution. How do we
communicate that?

Cheers,
Dana
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Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Talks between OpenWrt and LEDE

2016-12-21 Thread Stefan Monnier 
> Yocto. If lede were to succeed in meeting its other goals, coherently,
> preserving "lede" and moving forward as a separate project does make
> sense.

I don't have a clear opinion either way, but I think there are several
points to take into account:
- OpenWRT indeed has a fair bit of positive name recognition, but mostly
  within a fairly small community.
- The OpenWRT name has downsides:
  - "Open" clearly hints at Open Source, whereas I'd personally
appreciate a reference to Free Software.
  - "WRT" is inherited from the venerable wrt54g, whereas the project
has grown past those "wrt" devices.
- While brands have value, you can change a name without losing all the
  brand recognition.  I'm thinking here of cases like XBMC->Kodi or
  OpenOffice->LibreOffice.

So maybe it's a good idea to use the (still hypothetical, but hopefully
close) merge to advertise a rename which will both aim to carry-over the
brand recognition at the same time as it sends the message that it's
something "new and better" (i.e. keep the good brand recognition and
try to shed the bad one).


Stefan
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Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Talks between OpenWrt and LEDE

2016-12-21 Thread Dave Taht 
On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 12:29 PM, David Lang  wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016, Kathy Giori wrote:
>
>> From a PR perspective, I strongly suggest keeping the term OpenWrt as
>> part of the branding of the project moving forward. It can just be
>> cosmetic (web site, etc.) but the name has so much history, and
>> positive connotation, that you don't want to lose that brand attached
>> to the development moving forward.
>
>
> I agree, I think this is an obvious choice to make. OpenWRT has a lot of
> name recognition, it would be foolish to throw that away.

Just to take the other side for rhetorical purposes, a purpose of a
re-branding exercise is to show a change in the "product" or
organisation behind it. OpenWrt is widely known... as a bleeding edge,
sometimes unstable, somewhat hard to use 3rd party firmware. DD-Wrt
and Tomato get a lot more press for some reason. So do things like
Yocto. If lede were to succeed in meeting its other goals, coherently,
preserving "lede" and moving forward as a separate project does make
sense.

> David Lang
>
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-- 
Dave Täht
Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software!
http://blog.cerowrt.org
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Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Talks between OpenWrt and LEDE

2016-12-21 Thread David Lang 

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016, Kathy Giori wrote:


From a PR perspective, I strongly suggest keeping the term OpenWrt as
part of the branding of the project moving forward. It can just be
cosmetic (web site, etc.) but the name has so much history, and
positive connotation, that you don't want to lose that brand attached
to the development moving forward.


I agree, I think this is an obvious choice to make. OpenWRT has a lot of name 
recognition, it would be foolish to throw that away.


David Lang
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Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Talks between OpenWrt and LEDE

2016-12-21 Thread Zoltan HERPAI 

Hi all,

To clarify, the reason for integrating the OpenWrt patches into the LEDE 
tree is that in the future, at an agreed point in time for both parties, 
the OpenWrt trunk would be rebased from the LEDE tree, giving the 
community a "clean" trunk going forward.


(Hopefully at that time, the "two parties" will be one.)

Thanks Hauke for managing these talks and meetings.

Regards,
Zoltan H

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016, Hauke Mehrtens wrote:


We had multiple meetings to find a solution to solve the problems
between the OpenWrt and the LEDE project and to discuss a possible
merge. Everyone with commit access to LEDE and all OpenWrt core
developers were invited to these meetings. We had productive and
friendly discussions about the problems and our goals.

To be more open and to involve the wider community in these discussions
we would like to publish the meeting minutes from the meetings.

The first in person meeting took place in Berlin at the OpenWrt Summit
on 13. October 2016, but no one took any minutes so we do not have
anything to publish.
The second meeting was an audio conference on 5. November 2016 and
Florian took minutes which are attached to this mail.
At the third audio conference meeting on 3. December 2016 Jow took
minutes which are also attached to this mail.
The last meeting took place on 19. December 2016.
These minutes are representing the current state of the discussions and
are not PR polished.

We agreed on giving Imre, Zoltan and Luka commit access to the LEDE
repository so they can migrate changes they care about and which are not
in LEDE, from the OpenWrt repository to the LEDE repository. We also
encouraging everyone who sent a patch, which got merged into OpenWrt and
which is not in LEDE to send it also to LEDE for integration.

It is still not decided that both project will finally merge and we
haven't decided on the name to use, which parts of the infrastructure
and many other things. In general we are agreeing on many parts and I am
looking forward to a good merged ending for all of us.


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Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Talks between OpenWrt and LEDE

2016-12-21 Thread Fernando Frediani 
Great achievement. Congratulations to all involved.

On the naming topic have in mind the weight OpenWRT has given its history
in all these years. I personally think this point is the easiest.

Given the agreements continue hopefully there will be a single one great
project again soon with all benefits LEDE has brought in terms of
flexibility, agility and transparency to all contributors.

Thanks
Fernando Frediani

On 21 December 2016 at 16:06, Hauke Mehrtens  wrote:

> We had multiple meetings to find a solution to solve the problems
> between the OpenWrt and the LEDE project and to discuss a possible
> merge. Everyone with commit access to LEDE and all OpenWrt core
> developers were invited to these meetings. We had productive and
> friendly discussions about the problems and our goals.
>
> To be more open and to involve the wider community in these discussions
> we would like to publish the meeting minutes from the meetings.
>
> The first in person meeting took place in Berlin at the OpenWrt Summit
> on 13. October 2016, but no one took any minutes so we do not have
> anything to publish.
> The second meeting was an audio conference on 5. November 2016 and
> Florian took minutes which are attached to this mail.
> At the third audio conference meeting on 3. December 2016 Jow took
> minutes which are also attached to this mail.
> The last meeting took place on 19. December 2016.
> These minutes are representing the current state of the discussions and
> are not PR polished.
>
> We agreed on giving Imre, Zoltan and Luka commit access to the LEDE
> repository so they can migrate changes they care about and which are not
> in LEDE, from the OpenWrt repository to the LEDE repository. We also
> encouraging everyone who sent a patch, which got merged into OpenWrt and
> which is not in LEDE to send it also to LEDE for integration.
>
> It is still not decided that both project will finally merge and we
> haven't decided on the name to use, which parts of the infrastructure
> and many other things. In general we are agreeing on many parts and I am
> looking forward to a good merged ending for all of us.
>
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Re: [OpenWrt-Devel] Talks between OpenWrt and LEDE

2016-12-21 Thread Kathy Giori 
On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 10:06 AM, Hauke Mehrtens  wrote:
> We had multiple meetings to find a solution to solve the problems
> between the OpenWrt and the LEDE project and to discuss a possible
> merge. Everyone with commit access to LEDE and all OpenWrt core
> developers were invited to these meetings. We had productive and
> friendly discussions about the problems and our goals.

Thanks for the update Hauke and those who took notes. A merger would
be a nice Christmas present, or at least something to look forward to
in the New Year! ;)

> It is still not decided that both project will finally merge and we
> haven't decided on the name to use, which parts of the infrastructure
> and many other things. In general we are agreeing on many parts and I am
> looking forward to a good merged ending for all of us.

From a PR perspective, I strongly suggest keeping the term OpenWrt as
part of the branding of the project moving forward. It can just be
cosmetic (web site, etc.) but the name has so much history, and
positive connotation, that you don't want to lose that brand attached
to the development moving forward.

happy holidays all!
kg
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[OpenWrt-Devel] Talks between OpenWrt and LEDE

2016-12-21 Thread Hauke Mehrtens 
We had multiple meetings to find a solution to solve the problems
between the OpenWrt and the LEDE project and to discuss a possible
merge. Everyone with commit access to LEDE and all OpenWrt core
developers were invited to these meetings. We had productive and
friendly discussions about the problems and our goals.

To be more open and to involve the wider community in these discussions
we would like to publish the meeting minutes from the meetings.

The first in person meeting took place in Berlin at the OpenWrt Summit
on 13. October 2016, but no one took any minutes so we do not have
anything to publish.
The second meeting was an audio conference on 5. November 2016 and
Florian took minutes which are attached to this mail.
At the third audio conference meeting on 3. December 2016 Jow took
minutes which are also attached to this mail.
The last meeting took place on 19. December 2016.
These minutes are representing the current state of the discussions and
are not PR polished.

We agreed on giving Imre, Zoltan and Luka commit access to the LEDE
repository so they can migrate changes they care about and which are not
in LEDE, from the OpenWrt repository to the LEDE repository. We also
encouraging everyone who sent a patch, which got merged into OpenWrt and
which is not in LEDE to send it also to LEDE for integration.

It is still not decided that both project will finally merge and we
haven't decided on the name to use, which parts of the infrastructure
and many other things. In general we are agreeing on many parts and I am
looking forward to a good merged ending for all of us.
[please fill in missing stuff]

1) Initiate vorting on granting voting rights to wiki people -> Mail will be 
sent tomorrow
2) Ethical guidelines on the usage of project mail addresses based on Debian
 - who?
 - when?
3) Agreed LEDE work flow:
- Patches through mailing lists
- Patches through pull requests
- Changes aggregated, shaped up in developers own staging tree(s)
- Criticial fixes may go directly into the tree (typo, brick-fixes etc.)
4) Current OpenWrt work flow:
- Patchwork is lingering atm
- Main source are Github PRs
- Defer decision on whose infra to use until later
5) LEDE ticket/bug tracking explained
- bugs.lede-project.org
- github issues disabled
- no formalized process for ticket timeout
- atm. manual closing after like 4 weeks
- formalized/automatic process can be established if needed
6) Summarized LEDE infrastructure
- 3 Hetzner servers (2x EX40, 1x EX51), about 150 Euro/Month
- Digital Ocean Hosting Credits $3000 / Year, currentling running four 
small instances
for forum, wiki, git and utility stuff
- Domain about 20 Euro/Year
- Infra paid by Felix (1x EX40), by John (1x EX40), by Jo (1x EX51, Domain)
7) Summarized OpenWrt infrastructure
- drone.io - backed by one server operated by Luka (?)
- [discussion about insufficient resources for full coverage]
- Zoltan hosts: buildbot, wiki on virtual servers at a private company 
(would take 80-100EUR/month if it would be from the market)
- Imre operates server sponsored by Lantiq: 640GB disks? Monthly hosting 
costs TBD with Imre
- [discussion on build CI capabilities, pro/cons of buildbot]
- release manual is needed for lede
8) on releases
- releases need to be automated
- release procedure manual needs to be written
- volunteers needed for backporting
9) on naming / domain
- LEDE is willing to hand over the domain to 3rd party
- using OpenWrt.org would require it to be handed over to an independant 
party like SPI
- lede-project.org as well
- John, Jo are willing to donate money for covering domain expenses during 
the next years
- PROPOSAL:
- Domain holder (SPI, SLFC etc.) shall only react to domain change 
request publically 
  communicated on the projects mailing lists
- John suggested to have name server maintenance at domain holder as 
well
- Imre wants to stay with SPI
10) on server access
- distribute root access to 4+ people
- avoid trust issues by avoiding "secrets" on the servers like personal 
mail boxes
- [John and Jo explained current server admin model]
11) summarizing LEDE position
- grant repository push access to openwrt developers
- grant sserver root access to openwrt developers
- merge outstanding openwrt changes to lede tree
- use common codebase for openwrt and lede
- John explains that there is no real role distinction, there should be a 
rough consent
  among *still active* contributors
- Thrive for broad agreement, resolve issues through voting
12) summarizing openwrt position
- stance regarding repository usage changed since last meeting, lede shall 
notify the 
  community about that as well
- project name ("flag to sail under") should be sorted out before deciding 
on repository
  situation
- Felix