RE: I think, I will start a support site too....(forum)
Good morning, Concerning the forum application, we have already developed one, you can find it at www.editnews.com. It is running under Orion and was completely designed using the J2EE technology using XML for user interface... let me know if people are interested. regards, Hans Bakker A-Net Internet Services bv http://www.a-net.nl/english > -Oorspronkelijk bericht- > Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Namens The elephantwalker > Verzonden: zaterdag 25 augustus 2001 0:59 > Aan: Orion-Interest > Onderwerp: RE: I think, I will start a support site too > > > Simon, > > We're trying to develop a better mousetrap here ;). Also, I think a good > forum application, news application, and portal app would go along way for > more companies using orion. We are starting with the forum > application, and > will expand later. > > One of the reasons companies purchase weblogic is it comes with > all of these > apps that can be used right out of the box. If we can provide the > same thing > for orion at a lower price point, then more companies will use this > technology. > > This is why we developed the forum application. We tried Jives and > OSContent...Jives was missing key features like attachments and > distributibility (can't be load-balanced), and OSContent was just > too young > (they are working on it, though). > > Regards, > > the elephantwalker > > .ps somehow my posts are doubling up on the latest orion-interest > server...can't figure that... > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Simon Evans > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 3:19 PM > To: Orion-Interest > Subject: Re: I think, I will start a support site too > > > i wish there was a news server, that automatically gives you all the > features you are talking about. this is how the support for weblogic is > done. > also you dont have to develop anything, all it needs is a host > computer and > install it. > > The elephantwalker wrote: > > Group, > > In order to battle the big boys, Orion needs us all. This is why I started > my support site. Although this is a commercial venture, our goal is to > provide a support community for Orion. If you take a look at the > submissions > on the Oracle container support list, you can see that even Oracle needs > some help in understanding some bits of Orion. > > For those of you who have already signed up at the site, thanks. I thought > about just providing a maillist server, but felt that what we > really needed > was some type of forum application. Several of you have made suggestions > about improving the site, and we are making these changes: > > 1. automatic logins. > 2. wider input forms for the messages. > 3. a message thread view as well as the default forum view. > 4. next and previous message buttons. > 5. message filters so that html tags in the message are not necessary. > 6. search engine for the messages and the site. > > We are also adding a news application so that members can > directly add news > to the site. The up-coming tips and hints page will include the steps that > were taken to build the forum application, including: > > 1. breaking the 4k barrier for clobs and lobs in Oracle. > 2. distributing the application so that session clustering works. > 3. encrypted user security. > > Regards, > > the elephantwalker > > >
RE: I think, I will start a support site too....
Group, In order to battle the big boys, Orion needs us all. This is why I started my support site. Although this is a commercial venture, our goal is to provide a support community for Orion. If you take a look at the submissions on the Oracle container support list, you can see that even Oracle needs some help in understanding some bits of Orion. For those of you who have already signed up at the site, thanks. I thought about just providing a maillist server, but felt that what we really needed was some type of forum application. Several of you have made suggestions about improving the site, and we are making these changes: 1. automatic logins. 2. wider input forms for the messages. 3. a message thread view as well as the default forum view. 4. next and previous message buttons. 5. message filters so that html tags in the message are not necessary. 6. search engine for the messages and the site. We are also adding a news application so that members can directly add news to the site. The up-coming tips and hints page will include the steps that were taken to build the forum application, including: 1. breaking the 4k barrier for clobs and lobs in Oracle. 2. distributing the application so that session clustering works. 3. encrypted user security. Regards, the elephantwalker
Re: I think, I will start a support site too....
Also this http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orionsupport this http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EJB-Developer this http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ejb-future this http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JavaSourcer Actually, It would make more sense as a Yahoo Club, since that would give you video and voice conferencing and test chat w/ whiteboards (as well as more file space). Michael J. Cannon PM/COO - hsqldb.org, Inc. - Original Message - From: "Mike Shoemaker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Orion-Interest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 1:43 PM Subject: Re: I think, I will start a support site too > Good idea to host it on yahoo. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orionserver > > > - Original Message - > From: Bill Clinton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: Orion-Interest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 10:06 AM > Subject: Re: I think, I will start a support site too > > > > Another good point on this lousy list. I am unable to comprehend how a > > mailing list like this could be so bad. Could whoever is responsible > > for this list please answer one of these threads and explain yourself? > > > > This list could be hosted on a free listserver like Yahoo lists with > > much better results. > > > > Is there anyone out there on the list that would be able to host it? We > > could then just start our own list with a competent administrator and > > let this one die. > > > > I would like to hear more opinions on this so when you get this message > > in 4 or 5 hours or so, please reply. I am looking forward to your > > responses, which I should get sometime tomorrow around 12:00 est. > > > > Bill > > > > Alex Paransky wrote: > > > > > (in style of Andy Rooney) > > > > > > I see everyone is starting their support sites for Orion. I think it's > a > > > poor solution for something that's broken, mainly, this mailing list. > How > > > many support sites do we actually have now? Why is it such a problem to > > > keep the mailing list up and running? > > > > > > Now, we need to post the message to at least 3 places to make sure it > gets > > > maximum exposure. I think I will start a support site, that posts to > all > > > other support sites, just so that people don't have to search various > > > support sites for help. > > > > > > I don't mind so many support sites starting up, I just think they are > > > starting up for poor reasons and fragmenting what little knowledge we > > > already have about this product. > > > > > > What is the problem with the list? Why is it down half the time? I hope > > > it's not running under Orion... > > > > > > -AP_ > > > > > _ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > >
RE: I think, I will start a support site too....
I like the link..Joe has a good point..the community should help. Funny thing is, I tried helping, a few times. I sent some emails to either you, or maybe it was Joe? I can't remember. I was going to demonstrate my Theseus MVC framework, which is built for speed and scalability including clustering support (by calling the setAttribute() method after every request on every bean an action uses to ensure it gets replicated incase any changes were made to it). I wanted to see if Orion would distirbute Theseus (and my examples of how to use it in general, and with Orion). I got no response. My company wanted to distribute an EJB server to a possible 10,000 or more clients. Orion was our choice until I got no response... JBoss has since assumed that responsibility and thus far has returned better performance and you can't beat it on the cost, not to mention the support for it is far better than I have seen from Orion. As a paying customer, I have asked Karl and/or Magnus directly (to them via email) about some detailed info on Orion that I needed to know so that I could properly load-test the site and monitor its scalability capabilities... all to no avail. I have been actively involved with Orion since the .7+ version of it, as I am sure you and a few others that know me are. If you want proof, you can feel free to call any of the developers I work with. They are so sick of hearing me talk about how great Orion is, and what new neat feature I can do with it now that we are deployed on Orion. Hell, even my wife knows more about Orion that most people. Every now and again, the Orion team disappears, not to be heard from. What this list needs to see is some responses from the team directly every week or two, that the product is going to continue or at least some status update of what to look forward to and for God's sake..in what time frame! When is EJB 2.0 going to be fully impelemnted? How about JSP 1.2? Servlet 2.3? I know there are some parts supported, and the final specs are not done yet, but there are many app servers now support the latest EJB 2.0, Servlet 2.3 and JSP 1.2, and Orion, the one app server that used to be dependable to be ahead of the game, is now behind. What is worse, noone has any clue as to when we will see the next build, what it will contain, when all these features that the rest of the pack now has implemented (or is close to it) will make its way into a new build. I haven't seen an update for two months, and there are still some users with production systems having problems because of bugs with Orion that are not getting fixed. HTTPS Clustering doesn't work and thats a big deal for a lot of big companies that would want a scalable app server that is secure. Needless to say, Orion is still a great product, and I have often thought they should charge more for it. But upon not receiving any sort of support from them despite that they say when you pay for it you get 1 year of support (or is it 6 months?), I don't feel that I can recommend Orion over other products that are comparable in price (or free) that offer better support and more features. JBoss is a great example of a damn good piece of software put together in an open-source effort and is free. Again, as soon as I get the rest of our site on EJB, and IF Orion and Jboss both support the same .ear file with no problems, I will definitely do some load testing and post the results so others can see. Oh well, Orion is simple to use, built by two developers which to me is damn impressive when you compare it to the other servers on the market. But still..if your going to have a product and make money from it, you should support it, at least via the very cheap email system. > -Original Message- > From: Michael J. Cannon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 11:50 AM > To: Orion-Interest > Subject: Re: I think, I will start a support site too > > > answers inline > - Original Message - > From: "Bill Clinton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Orion-Interest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 11:08 AM > Subject: Re: I think, I will start a support site too > > > > Um.. > > > > are you serious with this example? I am sure I can find an > example of a > > website running on IIS where some pre-teenage girl posts > pictures of her > > pet cat - that doesn't mean I can use it for a high-availablilty > > load-balanced application. > > > > I was just responding to Mr. Paransky, that, despite all of > his complaints > about using Orion as a basis for communications, he was doing > EXACTLY that. > > > I reread your post searching for where I missed the joke, > > Look at the sender of the original message I was replying to, > then look at > who owns the web page. > >
Re[2]: I think, I will start a support site too....
Hello Kevin, I did a stress-test some time ago. It was a JSP page that made a DB Query joining 2 tables and used a findByAll method on a entity bean. Both tables where populated with 5000 items. I ran Jtest with 2 groups of 10 threads, spacing each http query from the same thread by 300mls. The DB server was a IBM Netfinity Single Processor Pentium III 700Mhz, with 512 megs of RAM running Win 2k. Orion was running in a IBM PC-300GL Pentium III 600m 256 megs of RAM and Win NT 4 SP 5. Jtest ran on the same machine. The network was a Ethernet-100. JDK 1.3 and orion 1.2.? (long time ago, indeed) >From a clean start (all machines turned off and on), orion ceased to respond after 6 hours. Using oracle and orion on the same machine (the PC-300GL), orion ceased to responde after 1 1/2 hours. DK> On the note of support, has anyone load-tested the hell out of Orion to see DK> how much it really can handle before it crawls? I think these are issues DK> support (or perhaps a white paper) should address. -- Best regards, Rafaelmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I think, I will start a support site too....
answers inline - Original Message - From: "Bill Clinton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Orion-Interest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 11:08 AM Subject: Re: I think, I will start a support site too > Um.. > > are you serious with this example? I am sure I can find an example of a > website running on IIS where some pre-teenage girl posts pictures of her > pet cat - that doesn't mean I can use it for a high-availablilty > load-balanced application. > I was just responding to Mr. Paransky, that, despite all of his complaints about using Orion as a basis for communications, he was doing EXACTLY that. > I reread your post searching for where I missed the joke, Look at the sender of the original message I was replying to, then look at who owns the web page. >but I think > you are serious. So, I will agree with you: the quality of the orion > mailing list is appropriate for a product meant to host collections of > personal "under construction" pages. Actually, as I said, I think that it is a valuable exercise in valence and load testing of the app server in a 'worst-case' scenario. However, I too would like to see it on GNU Mailman. I don't think it will be, though. So, I've learned to live with it, because it does not belong to me. I would suggest the developers and owners of IronFlare read the ClueTrain Manifesto (at http://www.cluetrain.com/) but, they're Swedish, they're (hopefully) busy, and the site and maillist belongs to them (and they charge me nothing to subscribe). As to why it is hosted in the way it is, Orion is a private company, therefore, it's none of my business. Keep in mind, OC4J is Orion, therefore, Oracle OC4J maillists and fora at OTN and the Oracle USENET feed are available to you, if you wish (although there is a high amount of noise there), as are the other support sites that were Mr. Paransky's origin for this thread's beginning. BTW, when these issues concerned me, in April, I was pointed to the following link: http://www.orionsupport.com/articles/vision.html I now prefer to see this list as a node in that vision. If I need help, there are many places for me to find it and I always come back and post my experience here (if it is not already in the archive). Finally, keep in mind that we don't know for sure WHAT platform the server uses for this maillist. The problems could be hardware or incompetent hosting...or the whole thing could be a succesful experiment. Given the number of successful sites up and running Orion, as compared to Websphere and Weblogic, I think the case can be made for the latter, rather than any of the former. Mike > > Bill > > Michael J. Cannon wrote: > > snip > > and if Orion is good enough for you to run a web site - (and it is: > > http:/www.standardset.com/ ) > > well, it should be good enough for Orion, especially since they developed it > > and this is one of the 'load and valence test platforms (if it does indeed > > run on Orion) for the product. > > snip > > >
Re: I think, I will start a support site too....
Good idea to host it on yahoo. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orionserver - Original Message - From: Bill Clinton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Orion-Interest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 10:06 AM Subject: Re: I think, I will start a support site too > Another good point on this lousy list. I am unable to comprehend how a > mailing list like this could be so bad. Could whoever is responsible > for this list please answer one of these threads and explain yourself? > > This list could be hosted on a free listserver like Yahoo lists with > much better results. > > Is there anyone out there on the list that would be able to host it? We > could then just start our own list with a competent administrator and > let this one die. > > I would like to hear more opinions on this so when you get this message > in 4 or 5 hours or so, please reply. I am looking forward to your > responses, which I should get sometime tomorrow around 12:00 est. > > Bill > > Alex Paransky wrote: > > > (in style of Andy Rooney) > > > > I see everyone is starting their support sites for Orion. I think it's a > > poor solution for something that's broken, mainly, this mailing list. How > > many support sites do we actually have now? Why is it such a problem to > > keep the mailing list up and running? > > > > Now, we need to post the message to at least 3 places to make sure it gets > > maximum exposure. I think I will start a support site, that posts to all > > other support sites, just so that people don't have to search various > > support sites for help. > > > > I don't mind so many support sites starting up, I just think they are > > starting up for poor reasons and fragmenting what little knowledge we > > already have about this product. > > > > What is the problem with the list? Why is it down half the time? I hope > > it's not running under Orion... > > > > -AP_ > _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: I think, I will start a support site too....
How about running the list on yahoogroups? My 2c, Nicki - Original Message - From: "Rabi Satter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Orion-Interest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 3:23 PM Subject: RE: I think, I will start a support site too I usually don't step into these times of discussions but I must object to your statement about sites going down. In the bad old days before the web, client/server, etc. a system manager would be fired for having a system go down as many times as this list and the sites you mentioned have. It is time the IT world stops saying gee that's life stuff doesn't work every now and then. In the mainframe/minicomputer world 99.9% up time is the norm. That is what the IT world needs to have as a goal 100% reliable. The list reliability is very poor even by Internet standards. Simply moving the list to a list service would solve the issue once and for all if Ironflare would do that the list would be stable. Having the list stable is the first step to projecting a sense of support and stability of Ironflare. That would stop the complaints about support. Heck if Ironflare [hell I would do] take about an hour to setup a list on the list services this issue would die. Secondly, spending a week or less to build a portal site and have it hosted at tier1 or tier2 web hosting companying would handle the minimum that Ironflare's owners wish to put out on support. Total cost to Ironflare probably less than $2k a year or the revenue from the sale of one copy of Orion. -Original Message- From: Michael J. Cannon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 11:43 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: I think, I will start a support site too I personally think third-party support sites are a good thing. All of them I have seen so far are primarily commercial in nature, in order to counter the complaints of the corporate users that there was no 'credible support.' It's capitalism in action: see a need in the market and meet it. ...as to what the maillist runs, it really doesn't matter. All websites go down...Hotmail, Yahoo, even Slashdot...the rumor - never confirmed - was that it did indeed run on Orionserver. So what? Now you have another place to go when it is down (the new support sites). ...and if Orion is good enough for you to run a web site - (and it is: http:/www.standardset.com/ ) well, it should be good enough for Orion, especially since they developed it and this is one of the 'load and valence test platforms (if it does indeed run on Orion) for the product. Finally, the more info the merrier, and, given the levels of interest and participation by the people who have started these support sites and the support they have shown everyone on this maillist, I don't think any of us are going to suffer. Michael J. Cannon - Original Message - From: "Alex Paransky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Orion-Interest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 9:13 PM Subject: I think, I will start a support site too > (in style of Andy Rooney) > > I see everyone is starting their support sites for Orion. I think it's a > poor solution for something that's broken, mainly, this mailing list. How > many support sites do we actually have now? Why is it such a problem to > keep the mailing list up and running? > > Now, we need to post the message to at least 3 places to make sure it gets > maximum exposure. I think I will start a support site, that posts to all > other support sites, just so that people don't have to search various > support sites for help. > > I don't mind so many support sites starting up, I just think they are > starting up for poor reasons and fragmenting what little knowledge we > already have about this product. > > What is the problem with the list? Why is it down half the time? I hope > it's not running under Orion... > > -AP_ > >
RE: I think, I will start a support site too....
Well, what I don't understand is how after getting at least some sum of money, Orion hasn't hired people to do the job of support. Maybe they haven't got any money yet because Orion still has alot of bugs and is a ways away from what Oracle 9i promises in their app server. You gotta believe Oracle licensing Orion is a great thing for Orion, and perhaps they are very very busy working on alot of fixes for Oracle's version of Orion. I can say that if clustering isn't working (at least from what I have tried), and HTTPS clustering doesn't work, and there are other bugs too, that Oracle isn't going to launch 9i with a buggy product, even though Orion is pretty stable for most things. I still can't figure out why it hangs randomly when I am working, but it has proved pretty stable in production. On the note of support, has anyone load-tested the hell out of Orion to see how much it really can handle before it crawls? I think these are issues support (or perhaps a white paper) should address. What the hell am I talking about anyways? Oh well..Orion still rocks, but JBoss is much more enticing with its better architecture (at least in the EJB container), open source, and free price for deployment, production, distribution, etc. Now if only I could find a free open-source powerful scalable servlet 2.3/JSP 1.2 engine with a built in web server that is as good as orion. > -Original Message- > From: Rabi Satter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 6:24 AM > To: Orion-Interest > Subject: RE: I think, I will start a support site too > > > I usually don't step into these times of discussions but I > must object to > your statement about sites going down. In the bad old days > before the web, > client/server, etc. a system manager would be fired for > having a system go > down as many times as this list and the sites you mentioned > have. It is time > the IT world stops saying gee that's life stuff doesn't work > every now and > then. In the mainframe/minicomputer world 99.9% up time > is the norm. > That is what the IT world needs to have as a goal 100% reliable. > > The list reliability is very poor even by Internet standards. > Simply moving > the list to a list service would solve the issue once and for all if > Ironflare would do that the list would be stable. Having the > list stable is > the first step to projecting a sense of support and stability > of Ironflare. > That would stop the complaints about support. Heck if > Ironflare [hell I > would do] take about an hour to setup a list on the list > services this issue > would die. Secondly, spending a week or less to build a > portal site and have > it hosted at tier1 or tier2 web hosting companying would > handle the minimum > that Ironflare's owners wish to put out on support. Total > cost to Ironflare > probably less than $2k a year or the revenue from the sale of > one copy of > Orion. > > > > -----Original Message- > From: Michael J. Cannon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 11:43 PM > To: Orion-Interest > Subject: Re: I think, I will start a support site too > > > I personally think third-party support sites are a good > thing. All of them > I have seen so far are primarily commercial in nature, in > order to counter > the complaints of the corporate users that there was no > 'credible support.' > It's capitalism in action: see a need in the market and meet it. > > ...as to what the maillist runs, it really doesn't matter. > All websites go > down...Hotmail, Yahoo, even Slashdot...the rumor - never > confirmed - was > that it did indeed run on Orionserver. So what? Now you > have another place > to go when it is down (the new support sites). > > ...and if Orion is good enough for you to run a web site - (and it is: > http:/www.standardset.com/ ) > well, it should be good enough for Orion, especially since > they developed it > and this is one of the 'load and valence test platforms (if > it does indeed > run on Orion) for the product. > > Finally, the more info the merrier, and, given the levels of > interest and > participation by the people who have started these support > sites and the > support they have shown everyone on this maillist, I don't > think any of us > are going to suffer. > > Michael J. Cannon > - Original Message - > From: "Alex Paransky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Orion-Interest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 9:13 PM > Subject: I think, I will start a support site too > > > >
Re: I think, I will start a support site too....
Elephant walker is capable and I registered oionsig.org a while ago (when this was an issue for me - I think it was April). My ISP allows GNU Mailman, so that shouldn't be a problem. Also, you're free to start a Yahoo Club, or host the site on SourceForge (you could set it up so that it was a MBSD or ASL licensed site for extensions, mods, etc. specifically slanted to Orion's implementation of J2EE). What do you suggest, keeping in mind that this only accomplishes the task of further fragmenting the community (as IronFlare will still only post the link to their mailserver on their site, so part of the admin's job would be to spam this list with announcements and run copy-to scripts). Michael J. Cannon PM/COO - hsqldb.org, Inc. - Original Message - From: "Bill Clinton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Orion-Interest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 10:06 AM Subject: Re: I think, I will start a support site too > Another good point on this lousy list. I am unable to comprehend how a > mailing list like this could be so bad. Could whoever is responsible > for this list please answer one of these threads and explain yourself? > > This list could be hosted on a free listserver like Yahoo lists with > much better results. > > Is there anyone out there on the list that would be able to host it? We > could then just start our own list with a competent administrator and > let this one die. > > I would like to hear more opinions on this so when you get this message > in 4 or 5 hours or so, please reply. I am looking forward to your > responses, which I should get sometime tomorrow around 12:00 est. > > Bill > > Alex Paransky wrote: > > > (in style of Andy Rooney) > > > > I see everyone is starting their support sites for Orion. I think it's a > > poor solution for something that's broken, mainly, this mailing list. How > > many support sites do we actually have now? Why is it such a problem to > > keep the mailing list up and running? > > > > Now, we need to post the message to at least 3 places to make sure it gets > > maximum exposure. I think I will start a support site, that posts to all > > other support sites, just so that people don't have to search various > > support sites for help. > > > > I don't mind so many support sites starting up, I just think they are > > starting up for poor reasons and fragmenting what little knowledge we > > already have about this product. > > > > What is the problem with the list? Why is it down half the time? I hope > > it's not running under Orion... > > > > -AP_ > >
Re: I think, I will start a support site too....
Um.. are you serious with this example? I am sure I can find an example of a website running on IIS where some pre-teenage girl posts pictures of her pet cat - that doesn't mean I can use it for a high-availablilty load-balanced application. I reread your post searching for where I missed the joke, but I think you are serious. So, I will agree with you: the quality of the orion mailing list is appropriate for a product meant to host collections of personal "under construction" pages. Bill Michael J. Cannon wrote: snip > and if Orion is good enough for you to run a web site - (and it is: > http:/www.standardset.com/ ) > well, it should be good enough for Orion, especially since they developed it > and this is one of the 'load and valence test platforms (if it does indeed > run on Orion) for the product. snip
RE: I think, I will start a support site too....
How about moving the mailing list onto yahoogroups? They seem to be quite reliable. -Original Message- From: Christopher J. Woods [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 23 August 2001 15:53 To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: I think, I will start a support site too Rabi Satter wrote: > > I usually don't step into these times of discussions but I must object to > your statement about sites going down. In the bad old days before the web, > client/server, etc. a system manager would be fired for having a system go > down as many times as this list and the sites you mentioned have. It is time > the IT world stops saying gee that's life stuff doesn't work every now and > then. In the mainframe/minicomputer world 99.9% up time is the norm. > That is what the IT world needs to have as a goal 100% reliable. [...] Of course, your point is completely moot, since nobody gets paid to maintain this mailing list. Who're you going to fire? cheers, Chris http://www.iii.co.uk Interactive Investor International is a leading UK Internet personal finance service that provides individuals with the capability to identify, compare, monitor and buy online a number of financial products and services. Interactive Investor Trading Limited, a subsidiary of Interactive Investor International plc, is regulated by the SFA.
Re: I think, I will start a support site too....
Another good point on this lousy list. I am unable to comprehend how a mailing list like this could be so bad. Could whoever is responsible for this list please answer one of these threads and explain yourself? This list could be hosted on a free listserver like Yahoo lists with much better results. Is there anyone out there on the list that would be able to host it? We could then just start our own list with a competent administrator and let this one die. I would like to hear more opinions on this so when you get this message in 4 or 5 hours or so, please reply. I am looking forward to your responses, which I should get sometime tomorrow around 12:00 est. Bill Alex Paransky wrote: > (in style of Andy Rooney) > > I see everyone is starting their support sites for Orion. I think it's a > poor solution for something that's broken, mainly, this mailing list. How > many support sites do we actually have now? Why is it such a problem to > keep the mailing list up and running? > > Now, we need to post the message to at least 3 places to make sure it gets > maximum exposure. I think I will start a support site, that posts to all > other support sites, just so that people don't have to search various > support sites for help. > > I don't mind so many support sites starting up, I just think they are > starting up for poor reasons and fragmenting what little knowledge we > already have about this product. > > What is the problem with the list? Why is it down half the time? I hope > it's not running under Orion... > > -AP_
Re: I think, I will start a support site too....
Rabi Satter wrote: > > I usually don't step into these times of discussions but I must object to > your statement about sites going down. In the bad old days before the web, > client/server, etc. a system manager would be fired for having a system go > down as many times as this list and the sites you mentioned have. It is time > the IT world stops saying gee that's life stuff doesn't work every now and > then. In the mainframe/minicomputer world 99.9% up time is the norm. > That is what the IT world needs to have as a goal 100% reliable. [...] Of course, your point is completely moot, since nobody gets paid to maintain this mailing list. Who're you going to fire? cheers, Chris
FW: I think, I will start a support site too....
resend to list -Original Message- From: Rabi Satter Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 8:24 AM To: 'Orion-Interest' Subject: RE: I think, I will start a support site too I usually don't step into these times of discussions but I must object to your statement about sites going down. In the bad old days before the web, client/server, etc. a system manager would be fired for having a system go down as many times as this list and the sites you mentioned have. It is time the IT world stops saying gee that's life stuff doesn't work every now and then. In the mainframe/minicomputer world 99.9% up time is the norm. That is what the IT world needs to have as a goal 100% reliable. The list reliability is very poor even by Internet standards. Simply moving the list to a list service would solve the issue once and for all if Ironflare would do that the list would be stable. Having the list stable is the first step to projecting a sense of support and stability of Ironflare. That would stop the complaints about support. Heck if Ironflare [hell I would do] take about an hour to setup a list on the list services this issue would die. Secondly, spending a week or less to build a portal site and have it hosted at tier1 or tier2 web hosting companying would handle the minimum that Ironflare's owners wish to put out on support. Total cost to Ironflare probably less than $2k a year or the revenue from the sale of one copy of Orion. -Original Message- From: Michael J. Cannon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 11:43 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: I think, I will start a support site too I personally think third-party support sites are a good thing. All of them I have seen so far are primarily commercial in nature, in order to counter the complaints of the corporate users that there was no 'credible support.' It's capitalism in action: see a need in the market and meet it. ...as to what the maillist runs, it really doesn't matter. All websites go down...Hotmail, Yahoo, even Slashdot...the rumor - never confirmed - was that it did indeed run on Orionserver. So what? Now you have another place to go when it is down (the new support sites). ...and if Orion is good enough for you to run a web site - (and it is: http:/www.standardset.com/ ) well, it should be good enough for Orion, especially since they developed it and this is one of the 'load and valence test platforms (if it does indeed run on Orion) for the product. Finally, the more info the merrier, and, given the levels of interest and participation by the people who have started these support sites and the support they have shown everyone on this maillist, I don't think any of us are going to suffer. Michael J. Cannon - Original Message - From: "Alex Paransky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Orion-Interest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 9:13 PM Subject: I think, I will start a support site too > (in style of Andy Rooney) > > I see everyone is starting their support sites for Orion. I think it's a > poor solution for something that's broken, mainly, this mailing list. How > many support sites do we actually have now? Why is it such a problem to > keep the mailing list up and running? > > Now, we need to post the message to at least 3 places to make sure it gets > maximum exposure. I think I will start a support site, that posts to all > other support sites, just so that people don't have to search various > support sites for help. > > I don't mind so many support sites starting up, I just think they are > starting up for poor reasons and fragmenting what little knowledge we > already have about this product. > > What is the problem with the list? Why is it down half the time? I hope > it's not running under Orion... > > -AP_ > >
I think, I will start a support site too....
This is great -- the more the merrier. Just like other little guys like Orion, such as Jboss (www.jboss.org) and Blazix (www.blazix.com), give the competition like BEA and Websphere a run for the money, databases like mysql (www.mysql.com), postgresql (www.postgresql.org), firebird interbase (http://firebird.sourceforge.org) and sapdb (www.sapdb.oeg) give Oracle competition. If I don't like picking the high cost application servers like BEA and Websphere, or the high priced databases like Oracle, I have more options to choose from. And if the third party support is no good, I can pick another third party support candidate and try them out. * From: Michael J. Cannon * Subject: Re: I think, I will start a support site too * Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:34:58 -0700 I personally think third-party support sites are a good thing. All of them I have seen so far are primarily commercial in nature, in order to counter the complaints of the corporate users that there was no 'credible support.' It's capitalism in action: see a need in the market and meet it. ...as to what the maillist runs, it really doesn't matter. All websites go down...Hotmail, Yahoo, even Slashdot...the rumor - never confirmed - was that it did indeed run on Orionserver. So what? Now you have another place to go when it is down (the new support sites). ...and if Orion is good enough for you to run a web site - (and it is: http:/www.standardset.com/ ) well, it should be good enough for Orion, especially since they developed it and this is one of the 'load and valence test platforms (if it does indeed run on Orion) for the product. Finally, the more info the merrier, and, given the levels of interest and participation by the people who have started these support sites and the support they have shown everyone on this maillist, I don't think any of us are going to suffer. Michael J. Cannon - Original Message - From: "Alex Paransky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Orion-Interest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 9:13 PM Subject: I think, I will start a support site too > (in style of Andy Rooney) > > I see everyone is starting their support sites for Orion. I think it's a > poor solution for something that's broken, mainly, this mailing list. How > many support sites do we actually have now? Why is it such a problem to > keep the mailing list up and running? > > Now, we need to post the message to at least 3 places to make sure it gets > maximum exposure. I think I will start a support site, that posts to all > other support sites, just so that people don't have to search various > support sites for help. > > I don't mind so many support sites starting up, I just think they are > starting up for poor reasons and fragmenting what little knowledge we > already have about this product. > > What is the problem with the list? Why is it down half the time? I hope > it's not running under Orion... > > -AP_ > > * References: * I think, I will start a support site too * From: Alex Paransky <-- Chronological --> <-- Thread --> Top of Form 1 <<...OLE_Obj...>> <<...OLE_Obj...>> <<...OLE_Obj...>> <<...OLE_Obj...>> Reply via email to <<...OLE_Obj...>> Bottom of Form 1
RE: I think, I will start a support site too....
I usually don't step into these times of discussions but I must object to your statement about sites going down. In the bad old days before the web, client/server, etc. a system manager would be fired for having a system go down as many times as this list and the sites you mentioned have. It is time the IT world stops saying gee that's life stuff doesn't work every now and then. In the mainframe/minicomputer world 99.9% up time is the norm. That is what the IT world needs to have as a goal 100% reliable. The list reliability is very poor even by Internet standards. Simply moving the list to a list service would solve the issue once and for all if Ironflare would do that the list would be stable. Having the list stable is the first step to projecting a sense of support and stability of Ironflare. That would stop the complaints about support. Heck if Ironflare [hell I would do] take about an hour to setup a list on the list services this issue would die. Secondly, spending a week or less to build a portal site and have it hosted at tier1 or tier2 web hosting companying would handle the minimum that Ironflare's owners wish to put out on support. Total cost to Ironflare probably less than $2k a year or the revenue from the sale of one copy of Orion. -Original Message- From: Michael J. Cannon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 11:43 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: I think, I will start a support site too I personally think third-party support sites are a good thing. All of them I have seen so far are primarily commercial in nature, in order to counter the complaints of the corporate users that there was no 'credible support.' It's capitalism in action: see a need in the market and meet it. ...as to what the maillist runs, it really doesn't matter. All websites go down...Hotmail, Yahoo, even Slashdot...the rumor - never confirmed - was that it did indeed run on Orionserver. So what? Now you have another place to go when it is down (the new support sites). ...and if Orion is good enough for you to run a web site - (and it is: http:/www.standardset.com/ ) well, it should be good enough for Orion, especially since they developed it and this is one of the 'load and valence test platforms (if it does indeed run on Orion) for the product. Finally, the more info the merrier, and, given the levels of interest and participation by the people who have started these support sites and the support they have shown everyone on this maillist, I don't think any of us are going to suffer. Michael J. Cannon - Original Message - From: "Alex Paransky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Orion-Interest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 9:13 PM Subject: I think, I will start a support site too > (in style of Andy Rooney) > > I see everyone is starting their support sites for Orion. I think it's a > poor solution for something that's broken, mainly, this mailing list. How > many support sites do we actually have now? Why is it such a problem to > keep the mailing list up and running? > > Now, we need to post the message to at least 3 places to make sure it gets > maximum exposure. I think I will start a support site, that posts to all > other support sites, just so that people don't have to search various > support sites for help. > > I don't mind so many support sites starting up, I just think they are > starting up for poor reasons and fragmenting what little knowledge we > already have about this product. > > What is the problem with the list? Why is it down half the time? I hope > it's not running under Orion... > > -AP_ > >
Re: I think, I will start a support site too....
I personally think third-party support sites are a good thing. All of them I have seen so far are primarily commercial in nature, in order to counter the complaints of the corporate users that there was no 'credible support.' It's capitalism in action: see a need in the market and meet it. ...as to what the maillist runs, it really doesn't matter. All websites go down...Hotmail, Yahoo, even Slashdot...the rumor - never confirmed - was that it did indeed run on Orionserver. So what? Now you have another place to go when it is down (the new support sites). ...and if Orion is good enough for you to run a web site - (and it is: http:/www.standardset.com/ ) well, it should be good enough for Orion, especially since they developed it and this is one of the 'load and valence test platforms (if it does indeed run on Orion) for the product. Finally, the more info the merrier, and, given the levels of interest and participation by the people who have started these support sites and the support they have shown everyone on this maillist, I don't think any of us are going to suffer. Michael J. Cannon - Original Message - From: "Alex Paransky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Orion-Interest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 9:13 PM Subject: I think, I will start a support site too > (in style of Andy Rooney) > > I see everyone is starting their support sites for Orion. I think it's a > poor solution for something that's broken, mainly, this mailing list. How > many support sites do we actually have now? Why is it such a problem to > keep the mailing list up and running? > > Now, we need to post the message to at least 3 places to make sure it gets > maximum exposure. I think I will start a support site, that posts to all > other support sites, just so that people don't have to search various > support sites for help. > > I don't mind so many support sites starting up, I just think they are > starting up for poor reasons and fragmenting what little knowledge we > already have about this product. > > What is the problem with the list? Why is it down half the time? I hope > it's not running under Orion... > > -AP_ > >
I think, I will start a support site too....
(in style of Andy Rooney) I see everyone is starting their support sites for Orion. I think it's a poor solution for something that's broken, mainly, this mailing list. How many support sites do we actually have now? Why is it such a problem to keep the mailing list up and running? Now, we need to post the message to at least 3 places to make sure it gets maximum exposure. I think I will start a support site, that posts to all other support sites, just so that people don't have to search various support sites for help. I don't mind so many support sites starting up, I just think they are starting up for poor reasons and fragmenting what little knowledge we already have about this product. What is the problem with the list? Why is it down half the time? I hope it's not running under Orion... -AP_
