Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?

[jireland]

Twilight sleep was OMNOPON AND SCOPOLAMINE and the babies survived very 
well I have used it about 25 yrs ago mostly for women having their baby adopted 
or having a stillborn baby they yelled with pain but remember on one leval 
nothing jan 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Lesley 
  Kuliukas 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 10:29 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
  delivery - or twilight baby?
  
  Rather ironically this was promoted by the feminist movement. It was a 
  German technique adopted by the Americans as a way to emancipate women from 
  the pain of labour and so free them from the sexist burden of childbirth 
  pain.
  Lesley
  .
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Mary 
Murphy 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 6:00 
PM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
delivery - or twilight baby?

Hi, My 88yr old mother, a midwife in a previous life, tells me that it 
was a mixture of morphine and scopolamine.  she was injected with it it 
in 1950, against her protests,  for the birth of my sister and nearly 
died with an anaphylactic shock reaction. It was a common injection for 
"painless labour".  It was painless alright because women were 
unconcious and sometimes couldn't remember giving birth MM
 - Original Message - 

  From: 
  Rhonda 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:19 
  PM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
  delivery - or twilight baby?
  
  


  
Hi, all of you knowledgable women,
 
I was talking to a friend today who said that her sister in law 
who was born in the 1940's claims to be a "twilight 
baby"?  Apparently her mother - who has passed away now and 
cannot explain the reason - had her first child as a natural 
delivery - the second was this weird delivery where she went into 
hospital on her due day not in labour  - got put to sleep 
and then woke up having delivered the baby vaginally while asleep or 
in twilight!  
The next two were normal, natural births.
Does anyone know about this practice - obviously not done now 
days - i presume!
 
She was curious about how it was done and why it may have been 
done.
 
Any ideas?
 
Regards
Rhonda.
 
 
 

  

  
  


  
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[ozmidwifery] Twilight Sleep

[Anne Clarke]

Dear All,
 
Twilight Sleep is still used today - not for birthing - but the drugs 
used were scopolomine and omnopon with a mixture of morphine derivatives - 
remember omnopon and scopolomine was given as a premed?
 
However, there is a myriad of drugs used for the twilight sleep regime in 
anaesthetics including (I don't know its name) a drug used when one of my 
mothers had a retained placenta and was given a 'twilight sleep' type of drug 
that the anaethetist said would let her forget what was happening in OT.
 
Anyway, the original twilight sleep came about when women in the US and UK 
demanded a pain free labour and found out about drugs that could be used during 
labour.  These women wrote about them in popular magazines and women 
started to demand them during labour.  Women were told in these 
magazine they they would go to sleep and wake up with the baby already 
birthed - so easy, but of course no information about the drugs and 
consequences.
 
The majority of women  were still giving birth at home and 
because of the use of the drugs at home some of the women died as they 
did not have the adequate care required when you are semi conscious.  Some 
women died because of inahlation of vomit, overdose etc. and doctors then 
actually wrote that this was not beneficial to the mother and the baby, there 
were too many risks. 
 
The doctors wrote this in Medical Journals and not the popular magazines 
that women read and therefore the women did not get the message.  The 
popular press did not write about it, as pregnancy, birth etc was not a 
'suitable subject' to write about.
 
The women continued to demand twilight sleep.  Therefore, the doctors 
said if they wish to have twilight sleep for labour and birth they had to move 
into the hospital for the procedure for their safety and the safety of the baby 
so correct care could be given by the medical team.  This is one of the 
primary reasons for getting women to birth in hospital at this time - for 
educated, well heeled middle class women who could afford this care at the 
time.
 
So doctors cried out (but used the wrong information 
channel-Medical journals) against drugs for twilight sleep and the need to move 
women into hospital for labour and birth - interesting isn't it!
 
The studies in Scandinavia about addiction and the use of twilight sleep 
drugs used by mothers during the 30's, 40's & 50's for labour and birth is 
another consequence of these drugs used during labour and birth - but that's 
another story.
 
Regards,
Anne Clarke
Brisbane

Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?

[Marilyn Kleidon]

I think Rhonda that in the USA this was the time period that a Dr. De Lee 
came into his own with episiotomies: wonder of wonders. Forceps were also used 
quite routinely as well as restraint for mothers (amazingly enough they did tend 
to thrash around a fair bit though supposedly not being "in pain". I have read 
in the intro or first chapter of Jean Sutton's book "Optimal Foetal Positioning" 
that despite this, up to 80% of women delivered without operative procedures, 
though this probably did not include episiotomy which had become pretty standard 
at the time. "Twilight sleep" was quite different fom chloroform. I think the 
childbirth education movement of the 50's and 60's in the USA saw the demise of 
the popular use of twilight sleep. Also the American College of Nurse Midwives 
was formed in the mid 1950's (1954 I think) and they were instrumental in 
removing it as a method of  pain relief in many though not all hospitals 
over time. In many ways I think yoiu could say that twilight sleep gave birth to 
the natural childbirth movement and consumer advocacy in childbirth as well as 
homebirth and many of the many forms of midwifery in the USA.
 
marilyn

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Rhonda 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 6:16 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
  delivery - or twilight baby?
  
  


  
Hmm - Thank you all so much.  Very interesting.  I would 
have thought that it would have created problems with bonding and 
feeding etc - however they probably promoted bottle feeding too??
 
I would expect that there would also have been problems with 
tearing and rupture etc - just thinking that the woman would have no 
control or feeling and so would not really know when to push etc and so 
it would interfere with the natural process.  Just my thoughts on 
it. 
 
Anyone know why it stopped - I guess it was because of problems but 
there would no doubt have been some sort of catalyst to 
stop it?
 
Thanks Again
Rhonda 
 
---Original 
Message---
 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wednesday, June 
18, 2003 23:01:09
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: 
[ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?
 
Queen Voctoria started it. Well, they experimented on her and it 
was she that advocated how wonderful it was!

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Rhonda 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 
  7:19 PM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
  delivery - or twilight baby?
  
  


  
Hi, all of you knowledgable women,
 
I was talking to a friend today who said that her sister in 
law who was born in the 1940's claims to be a 
"twilight baby"?  Apparently her mother - who has passed 
away now and cannot explain the reason - had her first child as 
a natural delivery - the second was this weird delivery where 
she went into hospital on her due day not in labour  - 
got put to sleep and then woke up having delivered the baby 
vaginally while asleep or in twilight!  
The next two were normal, natural births.
Does anyone know about this practice - obviously not done 
now days - i presume!
 
She was curious about how it was done and why it may have 
been done.
 
Any ideas?
 
Regards
Rhonda.
 
 
 

  

  
  



 

  

  
  


  IncrediMail - Email has finally 
  evolved - Click 
  Here 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?

[Mary Murphy]

 

  
  


  
You are quite right. It probably explains why so many women had so 
many pelvic floor problems, that led to the obstetric "solutions" eg 
episiotomy, to solve an iatrogenic problem that led to incontinence etc 
in later life.  Also the babies were so zonked out they didn't 
breast feed well. 
the effects of this medical intervention is still 
being felt now, especially the medical culture of control of women in 
childbirth.  MM
 
  "I would have thought that it would have created problems 
with bonding and feeding etc - however they probably promoted bottle 
feeding too??
 
I would expect that there would also have been problems with 
tearing and rupture etc" 
---Original 
Message---
 
 

  


  
 
 

  

  
  



 

  

  
  


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RE: [ozmidwifery] Twilight delivery - Still used

[Lyn Cottee]

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] Twilight delivery - Still used








I’ve just
finished reading the biography of natural childbirth campaigner Dr. Grantly
Dick Read, who despite massive protest and attempts to stop him, helped
thousands of women achieve natural, fear-free births. He practised from the
twenties to the late fifties/early sixties and spoke of his puzzlement and
distress at the routine rendering of women into various states of
unconsciousness during birth. All manner of analgesics, including chloroform
were used by obstetricians, even when the women firmly indicated that they did
not want this method. So “twilight delivery” was just one of the many “solutions”
to the “horrors” of childbirth.

Queen Elizabeth
(then Princess) had Prince Charles according to Dick Read’s methods, it was
stated in the book.

To comment
on an earlier thread: Dick Read never advocated hypnosis, just a state of relaxation
brought about by the birthing mother herself rather than an external party. His
goal was to allow mothers to be fully conscious at all times during labour.

Cheers,

Lyn Cottee

 

-Original
Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On
Behalf Of Jan Robinson
Sent: Thursday, 19 June 2003 8:48
AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery]
Twilight delivery - Still used

 

Most likely a
concoction of Pethidine, Valium with 5 I.U. Of oxytocin added to speed up the
dilation so the episiotomy could be performed and forceps applied.
That was the practice of some obstetricians in my early midwifery career in
Sydney hospitals.
Jan

On 19/6/03 1:21 AM, "Nikki Macfarlane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

Twilight sleep is
still used in some countries sadly. One of my colleagues is training with me as
a doula. She had her fourth baby with our group last year. Her first two were born
in the Phillipines 10 and 8 years ago. She had what she called twilight sleep -
administered through her IV when she said the pain was very strong - she was
almost fully dilated and had wanted a "Lamaze" birth. She was
completely unconscious and has absolutely no recollection of the birth at all.
Her babies were both born vaginally, she suspects with forceps. Her third and
fourth were born here in Singapore. Number 3 was an induction for supposed
hypertension at 38 weeks. Her fourth, when she moved to our group and the ob we
work with, was a wonderful natural birth. She talks about the exp[erience of
her first two births as being very frightening and having difficulty bonding
with her babies afterwards. She is unsure of the drugs that were used but the description
of the effects sounds veyr much like scopolamine. And we get frustrated about
evidence based care not being followed in the West!
 
Nikki Macfarlane
Childbirth International
www.childbirthinternational.com 
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Distance training for the world's childbirth educators and doulas

 

Re: [ozmidwifery] Twilight delivery - Still used

[Jan Robinson]

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] Twilight delivery - Still used



Most likely a concoction of Pethidine, Valium with 5 I.U. Of oxytocin added to speed up the dilation so the episiotomy could be performed and forceps applied.
That was the practice of some obstetricians in my early midwifery career in Sydney hospitals.
Jan

On 19/6/03 1:21 AM, "Nikki Macfarlane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Twilight sleep is still used in some countries sadly. One of my colleagues is training with me as a doula. She had her fourth baby with our group last year. Her first two were born in the Phillipines 10 and 8 years ago. She had what she called twilight sleep - administered through her IV when she said the pain was very strong - she was almost fully dilated and had wanted a "Lamaze" birth. She was completely unconscious and has absolutely no recollection of the birth at all. Her babies were both born vaginally, she suspects with forceps. Her third and fourth were born here in Singapore. Number 3 was an induction for supposed hypertension at 38 weeks. Her fourth, when she moved to our group and the ob we work with, was a wonderful natural birth. She talks about the exp[erience of her first two births as being very frightening and having difficulty bonding with her babies afterwards. She is unsure of the drugs that were used but the description of the effects sounds veyr much like scopolamine. And we get frustrated about evidence based care not being followed in the West!
 
Nikki Macfarlane
Childbirth International
www.childbirthinternational.com   
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Distance training for the world's childbirth educators and doulas

[ozmidwifery] Twilight delivery - Still used

[Nikki Macfarlane]

Twilight sleep is still used in some countries sadly. One of my colleagues 
is training with me as a doula. She had her fourth baby with our group last 
year. Her first two were born in the Phillipines 10 and 8 years ago. She had 
what she called twilight sleep - administered through her IV when she said the 
pain was very strong - she was almost fully dilated and had wanted a "Lamaze" 
birth. She was completely unconscious and has absolutely no recollection of the 
birth at all. Her babies were both born vaginally, she suspects with forceps. 
Her third and fourth were born here in Singapore. Number 3 was an induction for 
supposed hypertension at 38 weeks. Her fourth, when she moved to our group and 
the ob we work with, was a wonderful natural birth. She talks about the 
exp[erience of her first two births as being very frightening and having 
difficulty bonding with her babies afterwards. She is unsure of the drugs that 
were used but the description of the effects sounds veyr much like scopolamine. 
And we get frustrated about evidence based care not being followed in the 
West!
 
Nikki MacfarlaneChildbirth Internationalwww.childbirthinternational.com 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Distance training for the world's childbirth educators and 
doulas

Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?

[Denise Hynd]

Dear Jo
Being a feminist does not ensure you make informed decisions!
Denise

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Jo 
  & Dean Bainbridge 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 4:25 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
  delivery - or twilight baby?
  
  USA feminists at the  time actually campaigned for 
  its use 
   
  I find the feminist stance on child birth to be really interesting - as I 
  can not understand why they advocate the rights of women to subject themselves 
  to major surgery to avoid the horrors of labour??  I say 'horrors' as 
  this was the term used when the first and last feminist argued with me against 
  women's rights in child birth.
  Does anyone have any idea as to why they just don't seem to get 
it??
  Jo Bainbridgefounding member CARES SAwww.cares-sa.org.au[EMAIL PROTECTED]phone: 08 8388 
  6918birth with trust, faith & love...
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Marilyn 
Kleidon 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:13 
PM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
delivery - or twilight baby?

Hi Rhonda: yes exactly as Mary said a mixture of scopolamine and 
morphine, quite commonly used in the USA from sometime around 1914 until 
1940's-1950's when it became less popular. I have met women in the USA in 
their fifties now who were administered "twilight sleep" as it was called 
during their labours in the 1960's. So, it hung around in some places for a 
while. I think it emerged at the turn of the 20th century in Germany was 
promoted by some doctor there as Mary said for "painless labour" and wealthy 
women from the USA and presumably other countries would travel to his clinic 
for their deliveries (which in fact they were). USA feminists at 
the  time actually campaigned for its use and such advocates along 
with "innovative" doctors were responsible for its introduction there. So 
much for consumer demand. Scopolamine of course eliminates memory and 
morphine, the pain. From all reports labour wards were horrendous places to 
be when it was commonly used as women would be screaming and were often 
restrained, although waking with no memory of the nightmare. Some women 
however liked it. I had a neigbour in Seattle: a lovely woman in her 80's 
who had had 3 of her 4 babies from the 30's to 40's with twilight sleep and 
loved it. Others hated it and some women and babies died because of it. Many 
of the babies were born quite flat and needed resusc. Became quite "normal" 
at the time. Weird heh?
 
marilyn

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Mary 
  Murphy 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 3:00 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
  delivery - or twilight baby?
  
  Hi, My 88yr old mother, a midwife in a previous life, tells me that 
  it was a mixture of morphine and scopolamine.  she was injected with 
  it it in 1950, against her protests,  for the birth of my sister and 
  nearly died with an anaphylactic shock reaction. It was a common 
  injection for "painless labour".  It was painless alright because 
  women were unconcious and sometimes couldn't remember giving 
  birth MM
   - Original Message - 
  
From: 
Rhonda 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:19 
PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
delivery - or twilight baby?


  
  

  Hi, all of you knowledgable women,
   
  I was talking to a friend today who said that her sister in 
  law who was born in the 1940's claims to be a "twilight 
  baby"?  Apparently her mother - who has passed away now and 
  cannot explain the reason - had her first child as a natural 
  delivery - the second was this weird delivery where she went into 
  hospital on her due day not in labour  - got put to 
  sleep and then woke up having delivered the baby vaginally while 
  asleep or in twilight!  
  The next two were normal, natural births.
  Does anyone know about this practice - obviously not done now 
  days - i presume!
   
  She was curious about how it was done and why it may have 
  been done.
   
  Any ideas?
   
  Regards
  Rhonda.
   
   
   
  

  


  
  
    IncrediMail - Email has 
finally evolved - Click 
Here 
  

Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?

[Debbie Slater]

Jo

But don't you think that - as in many things - if we don't understand 
something then it can fill us with horrors?  Many women see childbirth 
depicted so horribly and with nothing to compare it with - see those 
depictions as the reality.  It is not until we experience it - either 
through giving birth oureslves or coming into contact with the 
experience directly, e.g. by being with friends or relatives - that we 
can truly understand.

We still have the legacy too - of the 'days of yore' when childbirth 
could be truly horrible, and it did - in many cases - enslave women and 
disempower them.

Debbie



Jo & Dean Bainbridge wrote:
USA feminists at the  time actually campaigned for its use
 
I find the feminist stance on child birth to be really interesting - as 
I can not understand why they advocate the rights of women to subject 
themselves to major surgery to avoid the horrors of labour??  I say 
'horrors' as this was the term used when the first and last feminist 
argued with me against women's rights in child birth.
Does anyone have any idea as to why they just don't seem to get it??
Jo Bainbridge
founding member CARES SA
www.cares-sa.org.au 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
phone: 08 8388 6918
birth with trust, faith & love...

- Original Message -
From: Marilyn Kleidon 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?
Hi Rhonda: yes exactly as Mary said a mixture of scopolamine and
morphine, quite commonly used in the USA from sometime around 1914
until 1940's-1950's when it became less popular. I have met women in
the USA in their fifties now who were administered "twilight sleep"
as it was called during their labours in the 1960's. So, it hung
around in some places for a while. I think it emerged at the turn of
the 20th century in Germany was promoted by some doctor there as
Mary said for "painless labour" and wealthy women from the USA and
presumably other countries would travel to his clinic for their
deliveries (which in fact they were). USA feminists at the  time
actually campaigned for its use and such advocates along with
"innovative" doctors were responsible for its introduction there. So
much for consumer demand. Scopolamine of course eliminates memory
and morphine, the pain. From all reports labour wards were
horrendous places to be when it was commonly used as women would be
screaming and were often restrained, although waking with no memory
of the nightmare. Some women however liked it. I had a neigbour in
Seattle: a lovely woman in her 80's who had had 3 of her 4 babies
from the 30's to 40's with twilight sleep and loved it. Others hated
it and some women and babies died because of it. Many of the babies
were born quite flat and needed resusc. Became quite "normal" at the
time. Weird heh?
 
marilyn

- Original Message -
From: Mary Murphy 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 3:00 AM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?
Hi, My 88yr old mother, a midwife in a previous life, tells me
that it was a mixture of morphine and scopolamine.  she was
injected with it it in 1950, against her protests,  for the
birth of my sister and nearly died with an anaphylactic shock
reaction. It was a common injection for "painless labour".  It
was painless alright because women were unconcious and sometimes
couldn't remember giving birth MM
 - Original Message -
From: Rhonda 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:19 PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?
Hi, all of you knowledgable women,
 
I was talking to a friend today who said that her sister in
law who was born in the 1940's claims to be a "twilight
baby"?  Apparently her mother - who has passed away now and
cannot explain the reason - had her first child as a natural
delivery - the second was this weird delivery where she went
into hospital on her due day not in labour  - got put to
sleep and then woke up having delivered the baby vaginally
while asleep or in twilight! 
The next two were normal, natural births.
Does anyone know about this practice - obviously not done
now days - i presume!
 
She was curious about how it was done and why it may have
been done.
 
Any idea

Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?

[Rhonda]

  Hmm - Thank you all so much.  Very interesting.  I would 
  have thought that it would have created problems with bonding and feeding 
  etc - however they probably promoted bottle feeding too??
   
  I would expect that there would also have been problems with tearing 
  and rupture etc - just thinking that the woman would have no control or 
  feeling and so would not really know when to push etc and so it would 
  interfere with the natural process.  Just my thoughts on it. 
   
  Anyone know why it stopped - I guess it was because of problems but 
  there would no doubt have been some sort of catalyst to 
stop it?
   
  Thanks Again
  Rhonda 
   
  ---Original Message---
   
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Date: Wednesday, June 
  18, 2003 23:01:09
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re: 
  [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?
   
  Queen Voctoria started it. Well, they experimented on her and it was 
  she that advocated how wonderful it was!
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Rhonda 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 7:19 
PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
delivery - or twilight baby?


  
  

  Hi, all of you knowledgable women,
   
  I was talking to a friend today who said that her sister in 
  law who was born in the 1940's claims to be a "twilight 
  baby"?  Apparently her mother - who has passed away now and 
  cannot explain the reason - had her first child as a natural 
  delivery - the second was this weird delivery where she went into 
  hospital on her due day not in labour  - got put to 
  sleep and then woke up having delivered the baby vaginally while 
  asleep or in twilight!  
  The next two were normal, natural births.
  Does anyone know about this practice - obviously not done now 
  days - i presume!
   
  She was curious about how it was done and why it may have 
  been done.
   
  Any ideas?
   
  Regards
  Rhonda.
   
   
   
  

  


  
  
  
   





	
	
	
	
	
	
	




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[ozmidwifery] Fw: Aviva's New Play + More

[Vance & Edwina]

 
- Original Message - 
From: Aviva Sheb'a 

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 10:18 PM
Subject: Aviva's New Play + More



Dear Colleagues and Friends,
My recently finished play, Beyond 
Forgiveness, is being read at the Bakehouse Theatre, Sunday July 6th. On 
the same bill, I'm reading Marian Devitt's play Now...In Terms of Your 
Life, Irene, with Ron Hoenig. Please pass on the details below to anyone 
you think would be interested in coming along. Of course, if you're in Adelaide 
at the time, it would be wonderful to see you there!
Thank you all for your support. I 
wish you a warm winter,
Aviva Sheb'a Tel: (08) 8338 3983 http://www.chariot.net.au/~aviva 

 
~~
South Australian 
Writers’ Theatre Inc.
Presents
Sunday with SAWT 2003
A 
series of monthly play readings at the Bakehouse Theatre
Sunday 6 July 
2003:
Our Speaker over lunch is Pat Rix, well-known 
playwright. 
Among her plays is the 
musical  "My Life, My Love"  performed by the State Theatre during the 2002 Festival of the Arts, 
and also "Bananas."  Pat works with 
intellectually disabled children and is involved in community 
theatre.


  
  

  


  

  ..and TWO READINGS:
IRENE 

By 
Marian Devitt
Directed by Paula 
Carter
With Aviva Sheb'a & Ron 
Hoenig
 A poignant short play about life, and love 
from inside the poverty trap. 
BEYOND 
FORGIVENESS
Written 
and directed by Aviva Sheb’a
with
Joanna Tsalikis, Ron Hoenig, 
Rosaella Sheb'a, Leslie 
Marsh
In her forties, Liz confronts Mario 
about their meeting over twenty years before. No-holds-barred, gutsy, 
honest, Beyond Forgiveness is about power, sex, love, compassion, 
change and triumph.
A Speaker, a lunchtime bowl of SAWT’s famous 
soups with crusty bread, and two exciting 
performances…
All for $6.
1 pm, Sunday 6 July 
2003
Bakehouse Theatre, Cnr Angus & 
Cardwell Sts, Adelaide
---
Checked by AVG anti-virus system 
(http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 
6.0.489 / Virus Database: 288 - Release Date: 
10/06/03

Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?

[Denise Hynd]

I also understand that from Queen Victoria into the 50's women in labour 
were given ether and this was called Twilight sleep?Denise

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Mary 
  Murphy 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 3:00 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
  delivery - or twilight baby?
  
  Hi, My 88yr old mother, a midwife in a previous life, tells me that it 
  was a mixture of morphine and scopolamine.  she was injected with it it 
  in 1950, against her protests,  for the birth of my sister and nearly 
  died with an anaphylactic shock reaction. It was a common injection for 
  "painless labour".  It was painless alright because women were unconcious 
  and sometimes couldn't remember giving birth MM
   - Original Message - 
  
From: 
Rhonda 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:19 
PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
delivery - or twilight baby?


  

  Hi, all of you knowledgable women,
   
  I was talking to a friend today who said that her sister in law 
  who was born in the 1940's claims to be a "twilight 
  baby"?  Apparently her mother - who has passed away now and 
  cannot explain the reason - had her first child as a natural delivery 
  - the second was this weird delivery where she went into hospital on 
  her due day not in labour  - got put to sleep and then woke 
  up having delivered the baby vaginally while asleep or in 
  twilight!  
  The next two were normal, natural births.
  Does anyone know about this practice - obviously not done now 
  days - i presume!
   
  She was curious about how it was done and why it may have been 
  done.
   
  Any ideas?
   
  Regards
  Rhonda.
   
   
   
  

  


  
  
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evolved - Click 
Here 

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Fw: [ozmidwifery] Fw: SOY IS BAD IN PREGNANCY AND INFANCY

[Julie Garratt]

 
- Original Message - 
From: Julie 
Garratt 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: SOY IS BAD IN PREGNANCY AND 
INFANCY

Dear Denise, 
The South Australian Government use to subsidise 
prescriptions of Soy based  formulary for babies that were deemed lactose 
intolerant. Because of the subsidy I was aware that many mothers in the early 
nineties were going to their Doctors for prescriptions because they were so much 
cheaper than buying milk based formulary off the shelf $ 2.50 as compared to 10 
or 12 dollars. I did hear that there was going to be a move towards hospital 
based testing before giving prescriptions and I suppose this was because 
there was a huge increase in lactose intolerant babies! I hate to think how much 
damage has been done and I wonder if there will be a study done on the children 
tahr received those prescriptions? It would be an easy way to identify the 
target group for research. 
I will keep an eye on this one and I hope that 
someone here picks it up as I think it could be a very interesting study. 

Cheers, Julie G'',
 
 
- Original Message - 

  From: 
  Denise Hynd 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 4:36 
AM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] Fw: SOY IS BAD IN 
  PREGNANCY AND INFANCY
  
   
  
   
  
   
  
   
  
   
  "Infant feeding with soy formula milk: effects on the testis 
  and on blood testosterone levels in marmoset monkeys during the period of 
  neonatal testicular activity." See   http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12093826&dopt=Abstract  In 
  short, it reduces male infants' testosterone by up to 
  70%.
  
  
  WOULD YOU ALLOW THAT TO BE DONE TO 
  YOUR SON? Because products in your local supermarkets could do 
  it!
  
  
   
  "Dietary Flavonoids  
  Induce Cleavage in the MLL gene and may contribute to Infant Leukemia" 
  See  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10758153&dopt=Abstract
   
  "Exposure to genistein during gestation and lactation 
  demasculinizes the reproductive system in rats". See  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12629420&dopt=Abstract
   
   
  Valerie James  for www.soyonlineservice.co.nz 
  

Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?

[Kirsten Blacker]

As I understand it Queen Victoria was one of the first to use chloroform 
for labour, which popularised it's use. Twilight sleep used different drugs as 
described by MM
Kirsten Blacker
expat in MN for 15 more days!

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Robin 
  Moon 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 7:48 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
  delivery - or twilight baby?
  
  Queen Voctoria started it. Well, they experimented on her and it was she 
  that advocated how wonderful it was!
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Rhonda 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 7:19 
PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
delivery - or twilight baby?


  

  Hi, all of you knowledgable women,
   
  I was talking to a friend today who said that her sister in law 
  who was born in the 1940's claims to be a "twilight 
  baby"?  Apparently her mother - who has passed away now and 
  cannot explain the reason - had her first child as a natural delivery 
  - the second was this weird delivery where she went into hospital on 
  her due day not in labour  - got put to sleep and then woke 
  up having delivered the baby vaginally while asleep or in 
  twilight!  
  The next two were normal, natural births.
  Does anyone know about this practice - obviously not done now 
  days - i presume!
   
  She was curious about how it was done and why it may have been 
  done.
   
  Any ideas?
   
  Regards
  Rhonda.
   
   
   
  

  


  
  
    IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - 
Click 
Here 

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Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?

[Robin Moon]

Queen Voctoria started it. Well, they experimented on her and it was she 
that advocated how wonderful it was!

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Rhonda 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 7:19 
  PM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery 
  - or twilight baby?
  
  


  
Hi, all of you knowledgable women,
 
I was talking to a friend today who said that her sister in law 
who was born in the 1940's claims to be a "twilight 
baby"?  Apparently her mother - who has passed away now and cannot 
explain the reason - had her first child as a natural delivery - the 
second was this weird delivery where she went into hospital on her due 
day not in labour  - got put to sleep and then woke up having 
delivered the baby vaginally while asleep or in twilight!  
The next two were normal, natural births.
Does anyone know about this practice - obviously not done now days 
- i presume!
 
She was curious about how it was done and why it may have been 
done.
 
Any ideas?
 
Regards
Rhonda.
 
 
 

  

  
  


  IncrediMail - Email has finally 
  evolved - Click 
  Here 
<>

Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?

[Lesley Kuliukas]

Rather ironically this was promoted by the feminist movement. It was a 
German technique adopted by the Americans as a way to emancipate women from the 
pain of labour and so free them from the sexist burden of childbirth pain.
Lesley
.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Mary 
  Murphy 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 6:00 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
  delivery - or twilight baby?
  
  Hi, My 88yr old mother, a midwife in a previous life, tells me that it 
  was a mixture of morphine and scopolamine.  she was injected with it it 
  in 1950, against her protests,  for the birth of my sister and nearly 
  died with an anaphylactic shock reaction. It was a common injection for 
  "painless labour".  It was painless alright because women were unconcious 
  and sometimes couldn't remember giving birth MM
   - Original Message - 
  
From: 
Rhonda 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:19 
PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
delivery - or twilight baby?


  

  Hi, all of you knowledgable women,
   
  I was talking to a friend today who said that her sister in law 
  who was born in the 1940's claims to be a "twilight 
  baby"?  Apparently her mother - who has passed away now and 
  cannot explain the reason - had her first child as a natural delivery 
  - the second was this weird delivery where she went into hospital on 
  her due day not in labour  - got put to sleep and then woke 
  up having delivered the baby vaginally while asleep or in 
  twilight!  
  The next two were normal, natural births.
  Does anyone know about this practice - obviously not done now 
  days - i presume!
   
  She was curious about how it was done and why it may have been 
  done.
   
  Any ideas?
   
  Regards
  Rhonda.
   
   
   
  

  


  
  
    IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - 
Click 
Here 

<>

Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?

[Jo & Dean Bainbridge]

Actually! Come to think of it, to avoid twilight sleep was one of the 
reasons why my g.mother birthed all of her children at home.  Her other 
reasons included not wanting anyone from the hospital to steal her babies, and 
the other was as she said "it was during the war love, in London, and even 
though the Germans were not meant to bomb hospitals, you just couldn't trust 
em!"
gotta love her!  five kids born at home on a third floor flat in the 
middle of London with hubby in service and bombs falling.  She recalls 
quite vividly the "doodle bug" bombs whilst in labour with my mum!
Jo Bainbridgefounding member CARES SAwww.cares-sa.org.au[EMAIL PROTECTED]phone: 08 8388 
6918birth with trust, faith & love...

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Marilyn 
  Kleidon 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:13 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
  delivery - or twilight baby?
  
  Hi Rhonda: yes exactly as Mary said a mixture of scopolamine and 
  morphine, quite commonly used in the USA from sometime around 1914 until 
  1940's-1950's when it became less popular. I have met women in the USA in 
  their fifties now who were administered "twilight sleep" as it was called 
  during their labours in the 1960's. So, it hung around in some places for a 
  while. I think it emerged at the turn of the 20th century in Germany was 
  promoted by some doctor there as Mary said for "painless labour" and wealthy 
  women from the USA and presumably other countries would travel to his clinic 
  for their deliveries (which in fact they were). USA feminists at 
  the  time actually campaigned for its use and such advocates along 
  with "innovative" doctors were responsible for its introduction there. So much 
  for consumer demand. Scopolamine of course eliminates memory and morphine, the 
  pain. From all reports labour wards were horrendous places to be when it was 
  commonly used as women would be screaming and were often restrained, although 
  waking with no memory of the nightmare. Some women however liked it. I had a 
  neigbour in Seattle: a lovely woman in her 80's who had had 3 of her 4 babies 
  from the 30's to 40's with twilight sleep and loved it. Others hated it and 
  some women and babies died because of it. Many of the babies were born quite 
  flat and needed resusc. Became quite "normal" at the time. Weird heh?
   
  marilyn
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Mary 
Murphy 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 3:00 
AM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
delivery - or twilight baby?

Hi, My 88yr old mother, a midwife in a previous life, tells me that it 
was a mixture of morphine and scopolamine.  she was injected with it it 
in 1950, against her protests,  for the birth of my sister and nearly 
died with an anaphylactic shock reaction. It was a common injection for 
"painless labour".  It was painless alright because women were 
unconcious and sometimes couldn't remember giving birth MM
 - Original Message - 

  From: 
  Rhonda 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:19 
  PM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
  delivery - or twilight baby?
  
  


  
Hi, all of you knowledgable women,
 
I was talking to a friend today who said that her sister in law 
who was born in the 1940's claims to be a "twilight 
baby"?  Apparently her mother - who has passed away now and 
cannot explain the reason - had her first child as a natural 
delivery - the second was this weird delivery where she went into 
hospital on her due day not in labour  - got put to sleep 
and then woke up having delivered the baby vaginally while asleep or 
in twilight!  
The next two were normal, natural births.
Does anyone know about this practice - obviously not done now 
days - i presume!
 
She was curious about how it was done and why it may have been 
done.
 
Any ideas?
 
Regards
Rhonda.
 
 
 

  

  
  


  IncrediMail - Email has 
  finally evolved - Click 
  Here 

<>

Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?

[Jo & Dean Bainbridge]

USA feminists at the  time actually campaigned for its 
use 
 
I find the feminist stance on child birth to be really interesting - as I 
can not understand why they advocate the rights of women to subject themselves 
to major surgery to avoid the horrors of labour??  I say 'horrors' as this 
was the term used when the first and last feminist argued with me against 
women's rights in child birth.
Does anyone have any idea as to why they just don't seem to get it??
Jo Bainbridgefounding member CARES SAwww.cares-sa.org.au[EMAIL PROTECTED]phone: 08 8388 
6918birth with trust, faith & love...

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Marilyn 
  Kleidon 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:13 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
  delivery - or twilight baby?
  
  Hi Rhonda: yes exactly as Mary said a mixture of scopolamine and 
  morphine, quite commonly used in the USA from sometime around 1914 until 
  1940's-1950's when it became less popular. I have met women in the USA in 
  their fifties now who were administered "twilight sleep" as it was called 
  during their labours in the 1960's. So, it hung around in some places for a 
  while. I think it emerged at the turn of the 20th century in Germany was 
  promoted by some doctor there as Mary said for "painless labour" and wealthy 
  women from the USA and presumably other countries would travel to his clinic 
  for their deliveries (which in fact they were). USA feminists at 
  the  time actually campaigned for its use and such advocates along 
  with "innovative" doctors were responsible for its introduction there. So much 
  for consumer demand. Scopolamine of course eliminates memory and morphine, the 
  pain. From all reports labour wards were horrendous places to be when it was 
  commonly used as women would be screaming and were often restrained, although 
  waking with no memory of the nightmare. Some women however liked it. I had a 
  neigbour in Seattle: a lovely woman in her 80's who had had 3 of her 4 babies 
  from the 30's to 40's with twilight sleep and loved it. Others hated it and 
  some women and babies died because of it. Many of the babies were born quite 
  flat and needed resusc. Became quite "normal" at the time. Weird heh?
   
  marilyn
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Mary 
Murphy 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 3:00 
AM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
delivery - or twilight baby?

Hi, My 88yr old mother, a midwife in a previous life, tells me that it 
was a mixture of morphine and scopolamine.  she was injected with it it 
in 1950, against her protests,  for the birth of my sister and nearly 
died with an anaphylactic shock reaction. It was a common injection for 
"painless labour".  It was painless alright because women were 
unconcious and sometimes couldn't remember giving birth MM
 - Original Message - 

  From: 
  Rhonda 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:19 
  PM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
  delivery - or twilight baby?
  
  


  
Hi, all of you knowledgable women,
 
I was talking to a friend today who said that her sister in law 
who was born in the 1940's claims to be a "twilight 
baby"?  Apparently her mother - who has passed away now and 
cannot explain the reason - had her first child as a natural 
delivery - the second was this weird delivery where she went into 
hospital on her due day not in labour  - got put to sleep 
and then woke up having delivered the baby vaginally while asleep or 
in twilight!  
The next two were normal, natural births.
Does anyone know about this practice - obviously not done now 
days - i presume!
 
She was curious about how it was done and why it may have been 
done.
 
Any ideas?
 
Regards
Rhonda.
 
 
 

  

  
  


  IncrediMail - Email has 
  finally evolved - Click 
  Here 

<>

Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?

[Graham & Helen]

I think it was chlorophyll inhaled?  not sure.
 
Helen

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Rhonda 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 7:19 
  PM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery 
  - or twilight baby?
  
  


  
Hi, all of you knowledgable women,
 
I was talking to a friend today who said that her sister in law 
who was born in the 1940's claims to be a "twilight 
baby"?  Apparently her mother - who has passed away now and cannot 
explain the reason - had her first child as a natural delivery - the 
second was this weird delivery where she went into hospital on her due 
day not in labour  - got put to sleep and then woke up having 
delivered the baby vaginally while asleep or in twilight!  
The next two were normal, natural births.
Does anyone know about this practice - obviously not done now days 
- i presume!
 
She was curious about how it was done and why it may have been 
done.
 
Any ideas?
 
Regards
Rhonda.
 
 
 

  

  
  


  IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - 
  Click 
  Here 
<>

Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?

[Marilyn Kleidon]

Hi Rhonda: yes exactly as Mary said a mixture of scopolamine and morphine, 
quite commonly used in the USA from sometime around 1914 until 1940's-1950's 
when it became less popular. I have met women in the USA in their fifties now 
who were administered "twilight sleep" as it was called during their labours in 
the 1960's. So, it hung around in some places for a while. I think it emerged at 
the turn of the 20th century in Germany was promoted by some doctor there as 
Mary said for "painless labour" and wealthy women from the USA and presumably 
other countries would travel to his clinic for their deliveries (which in fact 
they were). USA feminists at the  time actually campaigned 
for its use and such advocates along with "innovative" doctors were responsible 
for its introduction there. So much for consumer demand. Scopolamine of course 
eliminates memory and morphine, the pain. From all reports labour wards were 
horrendous places to be when it was commonly used as women would be screaming 
and were often restrained, although waking with no memory of the nightmare. Some 
women however liked it. I had a neigbour in Seattle: a lovely woman in her 80's 
who had had 3 of her 4 babies from the 30's to 40's with twilight sleep and 
loved it. Others hated it and some women and babies died because of it. Many of 
the babies were born quite flat and needed resusc. Became quite "normal" at the 
time. Weird heh?
 
marilyn

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Mary 
  Murphy 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 3:00 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
  delivery - or twilight baby?
  
  Hi, My 88yr old mother, a midwife in a previous life, tells me that it 
  was a mixture of morphine and scopolamine.  she was injected with it it 
  in 1950, against her protests,  for the birth of my sister and nearly 
  died with an anaphylactic shock reaction. It was a common injection for 
  "painless labour".  It was painless alright because women were unconcious 
  and sometimes couldn't remember giving birth MM
   - Original Message - 
  
From: 
Rhonda 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:19 
PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] twilight 
delivery - or twilight baby?


  

  Hi, all of you knowledgable women,
   
  I was talking to a friend today who said that her sister in law 
  who was born in the 1940's claims to be a "twilight 
  baby"?  Apparently her mother - who has passed away now and 
  cannot explain the reason - had her first child as a natural delivery 
  - the second was this weird delivery where she went into hospital on 
  her due day not in labour  - got put to sleep and then woke 
  up having delivered the baby vaginally while asleep or in 
  twilight!  
  The next two were normal, natural births.
  Does anyone know about this practice - obviously not done now 
  days - i presume!
   
  She was curious about how it was done and why it may have been 
  done.
   
  Any ideas?
   
  Regards
  Rhonda.
   
   
   
  

  


  
  
    IncrediMail - Email has finally 
evolved - Click 
Here 

<>

Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?

[Dierdre Bowman]

Thanks for that info Mary. That is really 
interesting. Sounds dreadfull but things are that great today, just 
different.
Dierdre

Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?

[Dierdre Bowman]

Yes, I remember my mother talking about twighlight 
sleep. Don't know what the drug was but it sort of made women feel almost 
unconscious but yet still aware they were having a baby. If anyone knows more 
about the drug I would like to hear about it also.
Dierdre

Re: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?

[Mary Murphy]

Hi, My 88yr old mother, a midwife in a previous life, tells me that it was 
a mixture of morphine and scopolamine.  she was injected with it it in 
1950, against her protests,  for the birth of my sister and nearly died 
with an anaphylactic shock reaction. It was a common injection for 
"painless labour".  It was painless alright because women were unconcious 
and sometimes couldn't remember giving birth MM
 - Original Message - 

  From: 
  Rhonda 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:19 
  PM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] twilight delivery 
  - or twilight baby?
  
  


  
Hi, all of you knowledgable women,
 
I was talking to a friend today who said that her sister in law 
who was born in the 1940's claims to be a "twilight 
baby"?  Apparently her mother - who has passed away now and cannot 
explain the reason - had her first child as a natural delivery - the 
second was this weird delivery where she went into hospital on her due 
day not in labour  - got put to sleep and then woke up having 
delivered the baby vaginally while asleep or in twilight!  
The next two were normal, natural births.
Does anyone know about this practice - obviously not done now days 
- i presume!
 
She was curious about how it was done and why it may have been 
done.
 
Any ideas?
 
Regards
Rhonda.
 
 
 

  

  
  


  IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - 
  Click 
  Here 
<>

[ozmidwifery] twilight delivery - or twilight baby?

[Rhonda]

  Hi, all of you knowledgable women,
   
  I was talking to a friend today who said that her sister in law 
  who was born in the 1940's claims to be a "twilight baby"?  
  Apparently her mother - who has passed away now and cannot explain the 
  reason - had her first child as a natural delivery - the second was this 
  weird delivery where she went into hospital on her due day not in 
  labour  - got put to sleep and then woke up having delivered the 
  baby vaginally while asleep or in twilight!  
  The next two were normal, natural births.
  Does anyone know about this practice - obviously not done now days - 
  i presume!
   
  She was curious about how it was done and why it may have been 
  done.
   
  Any ideas?
   
  Regards
  Rhonda.
   
   
   





	
	
	
	
	
	
	




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