PAW - "Nazgul"

[David Mann]

Just a snapshot this week.
http://www.digistar.com/~dmann/cgi-bin/paw.cgi?date=28-Aug-2004
Cheers,
- Dave
http://www.digistar.com/~dmann/

Re: The end of film and a dry plate renaissance

[Frantisek]

Saturday, August 28, 2004, 7:28:03 AM, graywolf wrote:
g> Why would you want to use one of those new fangled dry plates? Real
g> photographers use wet plates.

Is it the reason real photographers look like Hunchback of Notre Dame
:-) ?
I can't afford a mule or llama to carry all the wet plate stuff
around, and I have never been into still-lifes.

Good light!
   fra

Re: kick-fitting a 500

[Cotty]

On 27/8/04, John Mustarde, discombobulated, unleashed:

>>Thanks to a generous offer from a member of this list, I'm now the proud 
>>owner of a 500/4.5 Takumar screw-mount howitzer.  While I can envision 
>>some genuine uses for this thing on my Spotmatics, I'd also love to find a 
>>way to attach it usefully to my Nikon DSLRs--to see what the chromatic 
>>aberration does if nothing else.
>
>
>I'm thinking some sort of adapter to fit Nikon, with some extension to
>it,  is the best available option. You'll need the extension to get to
>shorter min focus distance more than you'll need the infinity focus.
>If you end up with working distance of 20-40 feet the lens will at
>least be useful for birding from a blind.  I used a Spiratone K mount
>flange (from the front of a bellows) mated to an F bayonet (from the
>back of a bellows) to attach the FA* 600/4 to the D100.

SRB in the UK do an adapter.



navigate to 'Adapters', then 'View Adapter Price List' then 'Page 7'.

HTH




Cheers,
  Cotty


___/\__
||   (O)   | People, Places, Pastiche
||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps
_

Re: Anybody still using an external (analog) lightmeter

[Frantisek]

Saturday, August 28, 2004, 6:22:00 AM, graywolf wrote:
g> Wow, guys, they are the same meter. The L-28C is just an older model of the
g> L-398. The Norwood Director mentioned by someone else is an older version still.
g> Sekonic bought out Norwood long ago. I have actually owned all 3.

I have seen the Norwood Director! It somehow managed to get its way
onto the used market here... for around few euro, my friend now has
it. It seems even faster responding then all the L398 we had.

These are nice meters.

Good light!
   fra

Re: Was that based on my image?

[Cotty]

On 27/8/04, John Francis, discombobulated, unleashed:

>It looks like it's going to work out OK.  I've talked to
>some of the folks concerned, and we're trying to come up
>with an arrangement that is acceptable to all parties.
>
>So you can see what I'm talking about, here's the cover:
>
>
>
>And here's my Ferrari 512S image from the 2000 event:
>
>

I love the way they've removed the modern day driver and put a goggle-
clad 50's stig in there - I'll bet if you look close enough he has oil on
his cheek ;-)



Cheers,
  Cotty


___/\__
||   (O)   | People, Places, Pastiche
||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps
_

Re: I enjoy film

[Bob W]

Hi,

> I recall Valentin complaints were generated when he lived in Romania
> as well.
> Perhaps it is a cultural thing.

A culture of compaining, or a culture of bad labs? Romania is a poor
country. There are not enough wealthy photographers around to support
decent labs.

They spend all their money on gymnasts.

-- 
Cheers,
 Bob

Re: Wratten Filter Numbers

[Cotty]

On 28/8/04, Pat Curran, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Hi Guys,
>Does anyone know the wratten numbers of the following two Pentax
>filters:
>
>'Cloudy'
>'Morning & Evening'
>
>Thanks,
>
>Pat

No but I know the following:

'Too Shagged to Get Up for the Sunrise' - 69Y
'Pouring With Rain So I'm Staying Put' - 88C
'Lunchtime Mine's a Pint' - 6X (4X Aus)
'Afternoon Haze' - ZZZ
'Happy Hour Pink' - $1.00c
'Hello Love What's Your Name' - 36DDD
'Ambulance Blue/Red' - 911ER





Cheers,
  Cotty


___/\__
||   (O)   | People, Places, Pastiche
||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps
_

Re: Wratten Filter Numbers

[Mark Roberts]

Cotty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>On 28/8/04, Pat Curran, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
>>Does anyone know the wratten numbers of the following two Pentax
>>filters:
>>
>>'Cloudy'
>>'Morning & Evening'
>
>No but I know the following:
>
>'Too Shagged to Get Up for the Sunrise' - 69Y
>'Pouring With Rain So I'm Staying Put' - 88C
>'Lunchtime Mine's a Pint' - 6X (4X Aus)
>'Afternoon Haze' - ZZZ
>'Happy Hour Pink' - $1.00c
>'Hello Love What's Your Name' - 36DDD
>'Ambulance Blue/Red' - 911ER

'Hey, your web page is gone' - 404
'Color correction for eternal damnation' - 666

-- 
Mark Roberts
Photography and writing
www.robertstech.com

Re: 35 vs digi - Some points to ponder.

[Lon Williamson]

The *istD changed this list considerably, no?
graywolf wrote, in part:
You guys think you are so Avant-garde, while I was arguing for digital 
here on the list 5 years ago, and most of you were arguing against it 1 
year ago.

Re: Wratten Filter Numbers

[Cotty]

On 28/8/04, Mark Roberts, discombobulated, unleashed:

>>>Does anyone know the wratten numbers of the following two Pentax
>>>filters:
>>>
>>>'Cloudy'
>>>'Morning & Evening'
>>
>>No but I know the following:
>>
>>'Too Shagged to Get Up for the Sunrise' - 69Y
>>'Pouring With Rain So I'm Staying Put' - 88C
>>'Lunchtime Mine's a Pint' - 6X (4X Aus)
>>'Afternoon Haze' - ZZZ
>>'Happy Hour Pink' - $1.00c
>>'Hello Love What's Your Name' - 36DDD
>>'Ambulance Blue/Red' - 911ER
>
>'Hey, your web page is gone' - 404
>'Color correction for eternal damnation' - 666

Sorry, I got the number wrong above, of course it should be:

'Pouring With Rain So I'm Staying Put'  - H2O

and don't forget:

'Red Mist' GT40





Cheers,
  Cotty


___/\__
||   (O)   | People, Places, Pastiche
||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps
_

Re: PESO: What is this stuff?

[Paul Stenquist]

In NYC, Chock Full O' Nuts was what we used to call "a coffee shop," 
which was  a NY synonym for inexpensive restaurant with a counter and 
booths. There was one on the corner of 57th and 7th. I used to eat 
breakfast or lunch there from time to time.
On Aug 28, 2004, at 1:43 AM, graywolf wrote:

If you realized that "Chock Full of Nuts" used to be a doughnut shop 
chain here in the US that had a particularly good coffee (prior to 
Starbucks, et al) the name is not so strange at all. Come to think of 
it Starbucks is kind of a strange name for coffee.

--
Tanya Mayer Photography wrote:
Maybe, it was meant to be enjoyed with this extremely amusing 
beverage that
I discovered whilst I was at tv's house...
http://www.tanyamayer.com/gfm2004blog/065_std.jpg
Care for some "Chock full of nuts" with your "Spotted Dick"?
eee...

tan.
-Original Message-
From: Daniel J. Matyola [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 27 August 2004 8:09 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: PESO: What is this stuff?
On my recent trip to Maui, I spotted a can of this stuff:
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2615747
I understand this is a Brit "delicacy" of sorts, which was sent to an
English expat in Hawaii.  Can one of the British members of the list
explain what (and perhaps why) this stuff is?
The Hawaiians thought it was quite strange, and they regularly enjoy
Spam (the Armour kind, not the email kind.)
TIA,
Dan M

Re: Anybody still using an external (analog) lightmeter

[Keith Whaley]

graywolf wrote:
Wow, guys, they are the same meter. The L-28C is just an older model of 
the L-398. The Norwood Director mentioned by someone else is an older 
version still. Sekonic bought out Norwood long ago. I have actually 
owned all 3.

---
Goes to show...quality will out!
A couple of years ago I called Sekonic to ask if the selenium sensor chip 
might have some linearity problems, after all these years, and he said if 
the meter's needle will still zero and work smoothly thru it's travel, the 
chip and the movement are just fine.
You retire a battery-less meter when it will no longer zero the needle.

Just like me, still 'working' after all these years!  And that's all I'll 
say about that! 

keith
Frantisek wrote:
Still metering with my L398, it's a trusty tool. When? Whenever 
situation calls for incident metering :)

KW> Hah! How about my trusty L-28c2?  NO batteries!  

Re: I enjoy film

[Caveman]

Bob W wrote:
A culture of complaining, or a culture of bad labs?
Both.

Re: Wratten Filter Numbers

[Pat Curran]

Woops ... looks like I may have come across a real repository of technical
know how among some listies - I think I'll consult the dog just to confirm
you know what the heck you are on about - You understand I have to get
confirmation in cases like this ;)

Pat

> On 28/8/04, Mark Roberts, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
> >>>Does anyone know the wratten numbers of the following two Pentax
> >>>filters:
> >>>
> >>>'Cloudy'
> >>>'Morning & Evening'
> >>
> >>No but I know the following:
> >>
> >>'Too Shagged to Get Up for the Sunrise' - 69Y
> >>'Pouring With Rain So I'm Staying Put' - 88C
> >>'Lunchtime Mine's a Pint' - 6X (4X Aus)
> >>'Afternoon Haze' - ZZZ
> >>'Happy Hour Pink' - $1.00c
> >>'Hello Love What's Your Name' - 36DDD
> >>'Ambulance Blue/Red' - 911ER
> >
> >'Hey, your web page is gone' - 404
> >'Color correction for eternal damnation' - 666
>
> Sorry, I got the number wrong above, of course it should be:
>
> 'Pouring With Rain So I'm Staying Put'  - H2O
>
> and don't forget:
>
> 'Red Mist' GT40
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>   Cotty
>
>
> ___/\__
> ||   (O)   | People, Places, Pastiche
> ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps
> _
>
>
>
>

Re: The end of film and a dry plate renaissance

[graywolf]

Ever see that fameous drawing of young George Eastman going out to take some 
photographs? He was carrying his gear on his back, something like 80-90lbs of 
it. That is supposed to be what motivated him to start manufacturing dry plates 
and later develop photographic film.

--
Frantisek wrote:
Saturday, August 28, 2004, 7:28:03 AM, graywolf wrote:
g> Why would you want to use one of those new fangled dry plates? Real
g> photographers use wet plates.
Is it the reason real photographers look like Hunchback of Notre Dame
:-) ?
I can't afford a mule or llama to carry all the wet plate stuff
around, and I have never been into still-lifes.
Good light!
   fra

Re: PESO: What is this stuff?

[Peter J. Alling]

Which is not to be confused with a coffee house which is an expensive 
restaurant with tiny tables and sells over priced drinks sometimes 
loosely based on coffee and biscotti, (which is an Italian for stale 
cookie).

Paul Stenquist wrote:
In NYC, Chock Full O' Nuts was what we used to call "a coffee shop," 
which was  a NY synonym for inexpensive restaurant with a counter and 
booths. There was one on the corner of 57th and 7th. I used to eat 
breakfast or lunch there from time to time.
On Aug 28, 2004, at 1:43 AM, graywolf wrote:

If you realized that "Chock Full of Nuts" used to be a doughnut shop 
chain here in the US that had a particularly good coffee (prior to 
Starbucks, et al) the name is not so strange at all. Come to think of 
it Starbucks is kind of a strange name for coffee.

--
Tanya Mayer Photography wrote:
Maybe, it was meant to be enjoyed with this extremely amusing 
beverage that
I discovered whilst I was at tv's house...
http://www.tanyamayer.com/gfm2004blog/065_std.jpg
Care for some "Chock full of nuts" with your "Spotted Dick"?
eee...

tan.
-Original Message-
From: Daniel J. Matyola [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 27 August 2004 8:09 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: PESO: What is this stuff?
On my recent trip to Maui, I spotted a can of this stuff:
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2615747
I understand this is a Brit "delicacy" of sorts, which was sent to an
English expat in Hawaii.  Can one of the British members of the list
explain what (and perhaps why) this stuff is?
The Hawaiians thought it was quite strange, and they regularly enjoy
Spam (the Armour kind, not the email kind.)
TIA,
Dan M



--
Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is a virtue. Fleas are interested 
in dogs.
   P. J. O'Rourke

Re: In-camera sharpening question (take 2)

[Caveman]

Bill,
In your experience, do you get better results when you apply sharpening 
in the machine to an initially softer image, or when you get a sharper 
image and you apply lower or no sharpening in the machine ? (I ask this 
since the camera's / machine's algorithms are probably different)

And do you usually adjust that parameter to each customer's set of 
files, or do you have a "default" setting that you rarely adjust ?

Is color balance an issue for you or is it easily corrected/adjusted ?
Except the over sharpening issue you noticed with canons, is there any 
other issue related to these digicams that you noticed ?

And since I can't refrain from asking it: are there any brands that 
consistently give the best / worst prints ?

William Robb wrote:
You'll have to work that out with your lab.
I can set sharpening in lab from 0 sharpening to quite a lot higher
than what you are describing in camera.
The more your lab is sharpening, the less you will have to.
Canon seems to have gone a bit overboard WRT sharpening, most of the
stuff I see coming off Canon cameras appear oversharpened, and often
have lots of cool aliasing artifacts as well.

RE: Anybody still using an external (analog) lightmeter

[handmaid]

A Gossen Lunasix 3s for incident readings (it's spot on, no pun intended) and a 
(digital) Gossen SpotMaster for spot readings and flash (when I'm not letting the LX 
take care of the flash) 

AB

-- 

Whatever you Wanadoo:
http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/

This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at: 
http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm

PAW: Norwegian Impressions

[Boris Liberman]

Hi!

Just technical details: Voigtlander Perkeo I, Color Skopar 80/3.5,
Agfa APX 100, Epson 2450...

I will make proper web page on my site, but later. Meanwhile, please
use this link:

http://www.webaperture.com/gallery/photos/46727

Thanks.

-- 
Boris
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: More 35mm vs digital (price, upgradability...)

[Antonio]

Are you seriously suggesting that there are still markets out there that
cannot support film?


Where exactly where you thinking of?

A.

>> "William Robb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>> We've had this discussion before. My opinion, not shared by most of
>>> the list, it seems, is that by the time a developing maket can afford
>>> to support film to the extent needed to keep it a viable commodity,
>>> it will probably be able to support digital.

Re: More 35mm vs digital (price, upgradability...)

[Antonio]

Are you seriously suggesting that there are still markets out there that
cannot support film?


Where exactly where you thinking of?

A.

>> "William Robb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>> We've had this discussion before. My opinion, not shared by most of
>>> the list, it seems, is that by the time a developing maket can afford
>>> to support film to the extent needed to keep it a viable commodity,
>>> it will probably be able to support digital.

Re: Wratten Filter Numbers

[Joseph Tainter]

From time to time, Cotty, you truly brighten my day. Thanks.
Joe

Re: Has Pentax Ever Made.......

[Bob Blakely]

No.
Regards,
Bob...
From: "Don Sanderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

a camera similar in quality/specs to the Olympus 35RC, or XA, or Stylus
Epic?
Three "generations" of wonderful little cameras.
I've never seen one, if they did I'd love to have one!
Don

Re: Was that based on my image?

[Frantisek]

Good luck with it! I just saw the cover and your original, and I would
say, they are some bastards if they did take it intentionally.

Good light!
   fra

Re: The end of film and a dry plate renaissance

[Frantisek]

Saturday, August 28, 2004, 3:33:03 PM, graywolf wrote:
g> Ever see that fameous drawing of young George Eastman going out to take some
g> photographs? He was carrying his gear on his back, something like 80-90lbs of

All the mobile darkrooms, mobile tents for field use, it was the age
of unbeliavable inventions, some of them decidedly weird...

Good light!
   fra

Re: PAW: Norwegian Impressions

[Keith Whaley]

I really liike this one, Boris!
Peaceful indeed.
If you listen hard...you can hear the tiny noises. Clicks and pops. Ticks. A 
rustle somewhere off a bit.
An insect, persistent.

I like it!
keith whaley
Boris Liberman wrote:
Hi!
Just technical details: Voigtlander Perkeo I, Color Skopar 80/3.5,
Agfa APX 100, Epson 2450...
I will make proper web page on my site, but later. Meanwhile, please
use this link:
http://www.webaperture.com/gallery/photos/46727
Thanks.

Re: PAW - rainydaybouquet

[Bruce Dayton]

I have been backlogged due to a computer switchover and lots of work.
Anyway, just getting to the PAW's I haven't been able to comment on.

Ann, you have a way of seeing common things and photographing them in
a way that makes them seem much more than perhaps they were.

I really like this one.  It has a slight painted look to me that
enhances the subject.  Nice job, especially as you are just getting
into the digital capture arena.

-- 
Best regards,
Bruce


Saturday, August 14, 2004, 3:42:42 PM, you wrote:

AS> with the Canon Powershot A80
AS> early attempt with the digi cam

AS> I think the setting on this was 1/250, no flash
AS> and as if it were ISO 400
AS> But I changed cards and I think I also erased the
AS> first one I used so
AS> I'm not sure what I did .

AS> But I did notice that when I saved this to jpg it
AS> came up as sRGB color space
AS> instead of Adobe 1998 - even though that is the
AS> way my PHotoshop elements is set
AS> on my computer.  

AS> anyway - go at it, guys  I really don't know what
AS> I'm doing here yet

AS> annsan

AS> http://users.rcn.com/annsan/rainydaybouquet

AS> p.s. I cropped but did not futz with it much in
AS> photoshop -- just a bit less bright,
AS> a tad more contrast

Re: PESO: Journey's End

[Bruce Dayton]

Hello David,

Thanks for sharing this with us.  I really like the fact that there is
just a wee bit of visible detail in the boat instead of it being a
stark silhouette.

The sky seems a bit drab - quite a bit of it without much of interest
other than just orange.  I guess what I am saying is that the
foreground could be just a little more dominant to offset the sky.
Showcase some specific point of interest (patch of sunlight reflecting off
something of interest, starburst, etc).

-- 
Best regards,
Bruce


Saturday, August 14, 2004, 6:23:22 PM, you wrote:

DS> Finally! I have my handy-dandy scanner in place, and I am now completely
DS> armed and dangerous (well, I've always been a little bit dangerous, I
DS> guess ). In other words...fresh meat! 

DS> Here is my first PESO: http://www.fringe.com/peso/0001.php
DS> (I, um...borrowed, and morphed and merged, several designs for
DS> displaying pictures I have seen lately. Apologies to everyone.) 

DS> This was shot at a marina in Key West, Florida, circa June 2002. It was
DS> with my Pentax Super Program (sorry, no idea what the settings were) on
DS> Kodak 100 (or maybe 200). The shot was taken at the end of the day as
DS> the boats came in. I was hanging around the docks, and shot this.

DS> I Photoshopped a scan of a 4x6, crudely (because I have NO IDEA what I
DS> am doing in Photoshop yet) to remove some speckles which seem to be on
DS> the scanner, and Windex does not seem to remove. But I am stubborn, and
DS> will clean it again. And again. And again.

DS> Oddly, this was a very private, very exclusive marina. I just walked
DS> down to the piers with my camera around my neck acting like I knew what
DS> I was doing. Lots of people saw me, some even said hello, and NOT ONE
DS> even bothered to ask who I was, let alone what I was doing there. Which
DS> is odd, because everyone seemed to know everyone, and certainly no one
DS> knew me. Ah, the joys of a camera. Now I need a fedora and a card that
DS> says "PRESS" on it and I shall be set.

DS> I ramble.

DS> Anyway! Comments ARE MORE THAN WELCOME, but I'll probably just blame the
DS> scanner . Part of why I am on this list is to learn and better
DS> my technique. I don't know a lot about AOV, et. al, but I hope to learn
DS> to take better pictures.

DS> Thank you and enjoy (I hope),
DS> david

DS> ---
DS> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
DS> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
DS> Version: 6.0.736 / Virus Database: 490 - Release Date: 8/9/2004
 

RE: Polarizer

[Markus Maurer]

Hi Shaun
does it really make sense replacing a $30 circular pol filter with software
costing much, much more and
having all the work done in Photoshop?

I prefer having 2 polfilter in different filter sizes.
Some people must love sitting in front of a computer :-)
Just wondering
greetings
Markus



>
> Try getting hold of Nik Color Effects Pro. It WILL NOT remove all glare
> or reflections (for all of the reason mentioned), however, it will
> remove/modify some of the effects of said glare/reflections, minimizing
> the detrimental effect evident in some photos
>
> Cheers
>
> Shaun
>
>

Pentax Filters

[Pat Curran]

Hi All,
  My dog and myself have been trawling the Net today trying to track
down the wratten numbers for Pentax's 'Morning & Evening' and 'Cloudy'
filters.

It turns out that the 'Cloudy' is in fact an 81A light balancing (as opposed
to light conversion) filter which decreases the colour temperature slightly
to give warmer tones.

The 'Morning & Evening' filter is said to be an 85A. The 85s are, however,
colour conversion filters which lower the temperature in big chunks. I
suspect this is an error as my 'Morning & Evening' has a blue cast - I
suspect it's the direct opposite to the 'Cloudy' (81A), which is the 82A.

Strange that I found no reference to any of the other filters listed in the
two "helpful" replies to my initial post on this subject - my dog told that
these were cruel jokes played on me by some bad apples on PDML, but I stood
up for you guys and tonight my dog went to bed with no dinner. So there,
that will teach him to mistrust PDML posts.

Pat

RE: Pentax Filters

[Don Sanderson]

Uh, I think maybe a puppy treat is in order. :-(



> -Original Message-
> From: Pat Curran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 4:19 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Pentax Filters
>
>
> Hi All,
>   My dog and myself have been trawling the Net today
> trying to track
> down the wratten numbers for Pentax's 'Morning & Evening' and 'Cloudy'
> filters.
>
> It turns out that the 'Cloudy' is in fact an 81A light balancing
> (as opposed
> to light conversion) filter which decreases the colour
> temperature slightly
> to give warmer tones.
>
> The 'Morning & Evening' filter is said to be an 85A. The 85s are, however,
> colour conversion filters which lower the temperature in big chunks. I
> suspect this is an error as my 'Morning & Evening' has a blue cast - I
> suspect it's the direct opposite to the 'Cloudy' (81A), which is the 82A.
>
> Strange that I found no reference to any of the other filters
> listed in the
> two "helpful" replies to my initial post on this subject - my dog
> told that
> these were cruel jokes played on me by some bad apples on PDML,
> but I stood
> up for you guys and tonight my dog went to bed with no dinner. So there,
> that will teach him to mistrust PDML posts.
>
> Pat
>

Re: Polarizer

[John Francis]

What $30 filter?  B&H want $95.50 for the 58mm B+W MRC circular polarizer,
and $59.50 for the uncoated version.  The Hoya HMC is $70.50, or $122.50
for the S-HMC variety.   Larger sizes, of course, cost somewhat more.

Like I said - a polarizer plus 2X & 4X ND filters in 58mm and 77mm sizes
will end up costing me pretty much the same as a full copy of PhotoShop.

 
> Hi Shaun
> does it really make sense replacing a $30 circular pol filter with software
> costing much, much more and
> having all the work done in Photoshop?
> 
> I prefer having 2 polfilter in different filter sizes.
> Some people must love sitting in front of a computer :-)
> Just wondering
> greetings
> Markus
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > Try getting hold of Nik Color Effects Pro. It WILL NOT remove all glare
> > or reflections (for all of the reason mentioned), however, it will
> > remove/modify some of the effects of said glare/reflections, minimizing
> > the detrimental effect evident in some photos
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Shaun
> >
> >
> 
> 

RE: Anybody still using an external (analog) lightmeter

[Markus Maurer]

Thanks to anybody answering my question, namely:
Dag, David, Sid, Jim, Frantisek,Alan, Paul, Bob,Mat, Bruce, Handmaid, Otis,
Brooks, William, David, CRB, John,
Keith and all the lurkers out there too.

As far I see, some use digital light metering mostly with medium format
cameras but nobody uses an old separate analog light meter like the "Gossen
Sixtar2 SBC" and nobody knows the brand I got.

Digital seems to take over everywhere :-)

thanks for answering
Markus



> Subject: Re: Anybody still using an external (analog) lightmeter
>
>
>
> På 26. aug. 2004 kl. 23.29 skrev Markus Maurer:
> > Is anybody here still using hand metering and if yes, when?

RE: Polarizer

[Markus Maurer]

Hi John and others

when I tried to use a 58mm polarizer with a rubber hood on a 52mm Tokina
3.5-45. 28-70mm zoom with a step up ring from 52 to 58mm , my SFX could not
auto focus anymore.
When I remove the rubber hood, it works.
The motor of the SFX (SF1) seems not to be strong enough for the filter and
hood.

greetings
Markus

>
> A step-up ring from a 58 to a 77 looks more than a little odd.
>
>

RE: *ist (35mm) custom functions & 360FGZ flash

[John L]

Don,

You're an absolute genius

I feel so lame.  I now understand it.  The CF9 function actually controls the "pop up 
flash button" which in turn wirelessly controls the 360FGZ.  It's like using the 
camera as a wireless control module with a studio flash so you don't have to walk 
across the room. I get it now!  That's kinda handy.

The manual isn't real clear about which flash it's controlling.  It made it sound as 
though it changed the built-in flash operation and I kept firing the shutter like a 
dummy.

I'm sure I'll have more questions when I get down to using it w/ film.

Thanks again.
--
John Lingelbach
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"You're dumb as a mule and just as 
ugly!  And if a strange man asks 
to give you a ride, I'd say take 
it!"  - Grandpa Simpson to a Young 
Homer

PESO:ArtBar have a break - delay with MS Silvretta photos

[Markus Maurer]

Hi Pentax users
I promised several  days ago to show you the rest of the MS "Silvretta"
journey photos but will have to delete some more photos first on photo.net
because I reach the limit of 100 free photos.


This PESO shows a real nice place for a break in the old part of Zurich
(Niederdorf) Switzerland.
It was an art gallery only when it opened first but later the added a bar
too to make some more cash out of it.

As a side note: On the first print and later the big enlargement  the lab
easily managed to crop the
name of the gallery "Susi Brunner". This PESO is from the negative scan and
shows an example how much ist
lost at the edges in the lab when making prints. I was not amused


I like the wonderful decoration of the gallery and the red and blue colors
of this shot, what do you think?
I made a single snapshot only.

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2587362

comments welcome
greetings
Markus

Re: Pentax Filters

[Cotty]

On 28/8/04, Pat Curran, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Strange that I found no reference to any of the other filters listed in the
>two "helpful" replies to my initial post on this subject - my dog told that
>these were cruel jokes played on me by some bad apples on PDML, but I stood
>up for you guys and tonight my dog went to bed with no dinner. So there,
>that will teach him to mistrust PDML posts.

I'll be your dog.




Cheers,
  Cotty


___/\__
||   (O)   | People, Places, Pastiche
||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps
_

RE: *ist (35mm) custom functions & 360FGZ flash

[Don Sanderson]

Don't feel bad, I don't think most Pentax manuals are clear about much of
anything.
Especially flash!

Don

> -Original Message-
> From: John L [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 5:19 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: *ist (35mm) custom functions & 360FGZ flash
>
>
> Don,
>
> You're an absolute genius
>
> I feel so lame.  I now understand it.  The CF9 function actually
> controls the "pop up flash button" which in turn wirelessly
> controls the 360FGZ.  It's like using the camera as a wireless
> control module with a studio flash so you don't have to walk
> across the room. I get it now!  That's kinda handy.
>
> The manual isn't real clear about which flash it's controlling.
> It made it sound as though it changed the built-in flash
> operation and I kept firing the shutter like a dummy.
>
> I'm sure I'll have more questions when I get down to using it w/ film.
>
> Thanks again.
> --
> John Lingelbach
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "You're dumb as a mule and just as
> ugly!  And if a strange man asks
> to give you a ride, I'd say take
> it!"  - Grandpa Simpson to a Young
> Homer

Huge price differences for photo equipment (Was" polarizer" before)

[Markus Maurer]

Hi John

I often wondered before:
On some parts of the world you really have to pay premium prices, I'm sorry
for you...
I saw what prices Frank quoted for Canada for example and I could make a
small profit
buying used equipment here and sell it to KEH if they really pay their
suggested trade in prices.

BTW, has anybody sold to KEH and what where your experiences?


We seem to really have very low prices here in Switzerland especially for
used equipment
but also for new items in normal stores.
I paid ca. $30 for my new 58mm Hoya circular polarizer at MediaMarkt, and $2
for a 52mm second hand
b+w circular pol filter in my favorite second hand store. Normally the want
$$5-7 per filter there
but I know the staff quite well and usually get some extra discount.


As written before, I got an nearly unused SFXn + Data Back FB + Makinon zoom
80-200 + M50mm 1.4 lens
+ manual for less than $70 and nobody was bidding on that on www.ricardo.ch.
Instant buy price was  ~$110.

I see a *fabric new* Pentax K 300mm 4.0 lens now for "instant buy price" of
~$200 and a minimum price
of ~$ 70. No biddings so far Maybe all the photo lovers are still on
vacation but I see some pretty
attractive prices here for Pentax stuff. Maybe it is simple a side effect of
that move to digital.
On the other side, I see higher prices in Germany on www.ebay.de for Pentax
stuff.


I get the filters mostly from second hand stores or flee markets and never
pay more than $5-7,
when I buy more than one I even get a nice discount. I even started to sell
some again with a small profit over
the internet. I never would buy filters new anymore, I can wait for the
"second hand chance" :-)
I got Skylight, ND4, colored filters, close up lenses and much more in 49mm,
55mm, 58mm and even 77mm
for these prices, all brands like HOYA, B+W, Nikon, Olympus, Tamron and even
1 Pentax yellow filter lately  :-)

I must live in photographic (filter) heaven here:-)

greetings
Markus




>
> What $30 filter?  B&H want $95.50 for the 58mm B+W MRC circular polarizer,
> and $59.50 for the uncoated version.  The Hoya HMC is $70.50, or $122.50
> for the S-HMC variety.   Larger sizes, of course, cost somewhat more.
>
> Like I said - a polarizer plus 2X & 4X ND filters in 58mm and 77mm sizes
> will end up costing me pretty much the same as a full copy of PhotoShop.
>
>
> > Hi Shaun
> > does it really make sense replacing a $30 circular pol filter
> with software
> > costing much, much more and
> > having all the work done in Photoshop?
> >
> > I prefer having 2 polfilter in different filter sizes.
> > Some people must love sitting in front of a computer :-)
> > Just wondering
> > greetings
> > Markus
>

Re: PAW: Norwegian Impressions

[Keith Whaley]

Tinnitis is frequently compared to a summer's day at the swamp!  
Bob W wrote:
Hi,
Saturday, August 28, 2004, 9:16:32 PM, Keith wrote:

I really liike this one, Boris!
Peaceful indeed.
If you listen hard...you can hear the tiny noises. Clicks and pops. Ticks. A
rustle somewhere off a bit.
An insect, persistent.

Hmm. Sounds like tinnitus.

Re: PESO: vacation pics

[Herb Chong]

yeah, there are a bunch there to look at.

Herb...
- Original Message - 
From: "Joseph Tainter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "pdml" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: PESO: vacation pics


> The first one is lovely, Herb. I'll look at the other on Monday, when I 
> have my office's high-speed connection.

Re: Pentax Filters

[Peter J. Alling]

Cotty wrote:
On 28/8/04, Pat Curran, discombobulated, unleashed:
 

Strange that I found no reference to any of the other filters listed in the
two "helpful" replies to my initial post on this subject - my dog told that
these were cruel jokes played on me by some bad apples on PDML, but I stood
up for you guys and tonight my dog went to bed with no dinner. So there,
that will teach him to mistrust PDML posts.
   

I'll be your dog.
 

Now this is just sick...  But can I sell the tickets?

Cheers,
 Cotty
___/\__
||   (O)   | People, Places, Pastiche
||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps
_

 


--
Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is a virtue. Fleas are interested 
in dogs.
   P. J. O'Rourke

PESO:FT style maybe?

[Markus Maurer]

Hi Frank
this picture is made in 1984 some minutes before the demonstration started.
Dome of the demonstrants unrolled the flag and the woman really had to rush
to serve the champagne

hope you don't mind :-)

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2649941


greetings
Markus

Re: Huge price differences for photo equipment (Was" polarizer" before)

[John Francis]

> 
> I paid ca. $30 for my new 58mm Hoya circular polarizer at MediaMarkt.

Uncoated?  HMC?  S-HMC?  That makes a big difference to the price.

I'm happy with the performance of my SMC lenses.  I don't see the
point of wasting most of that benefit by putting uncoated glass
at the first interface to the outside world.   It's the old, old
argument - why bother to buy an expensive lens if you're only
going to stick a cheap filter on the front of it?  I probably
wouldn't pay $100 for a filter if it were only going on a $100
lens, but my FA 28-105 also takes the standard 58mm filter size.

And, unfortunately, it's mostly the cheap uncoated filters that
show up at the second-hand sales.

An Enzo at the Dream Cruise

[Paul Stenquist]

Enzo Ferarris are, well, really expensive. I was surprised to see one 
out in traffic among the other 40,000 cars at the Woodward Avenue Dream 
Cruise in Detroit last weekend. Of course it's not as surprising as 
seeing a million dollar F1 car in a vintage race. If you can afford to 
break it, you can do what you want. In any case, I shot the Enzo with 
my SMC A 400/5.6 on the *ist D. ISO 200, tripod, RAW.
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2639520&size=lg

Re: Polarizer

[Dr. Shaun Canning]

Absolutely not Markus. The glass polarizers are a much better choice. I 
don't enjoy sitting in front of a PC more than anyone else. However, we 
do have 4-6 months of the year up here where it is too bloody hot to be 
outside taking photos, so lots of time in the aircon to work on 
photoshop :-) .

I always used glass pol's wherever possible prior to the *ist D. And 
there is no substitute for having one when you need it. In fact, I will 
probably go back to using a circ pol on my WA lens, as soon as I am 
satisfied that the one I have is a keeper (in case of different filter 
sizes if I decide to swap). The other issue up here is that I really 
don't need to worry too much about reflections of waterthere isn't 
any! (unless I am on the coast).

Cheers
Shaun
Markus Maurer wrote:
Hi Shaun
does it really make sense replacing a $30 circular pol filter with software
costing much, much more and
having all the work done in Photoshop?
I prefer having 2 polfilter in different filter sizes.
Some people must love sitting in front of a computer :-)
Just wondering
greetings
Markus

 

Try getting hold of Nik Color Effects Pro. It WILL NOT remove all glare
or reflections (for all of the reason mentioned), however, it will
remove/modify some of the effects of said glare/reflections, minimizing
the detrimental effect evident in some photos
Cheers
Shaun
   


 

--
_
Dr. Shaun Canning
P.O. Box 21, 
Dampier, WA,
6714, Australia.

m: 0414 967644
http://www.heritageservices.com.au
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
_

Re: I enjoy film

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob W"
Subject: Re: I enjoy film


>
> A culture of compaining, or a culture of bad labs? Romania is a
poor
> country. There are not enough wealthy photographers around to
support
> decent labs.

That hasn't entered  into the conversation until now.
Running a good photo lab costs money. All the little things that are
done that keep the standards up add up to a significant outlay of
money.
The customer has to be both rich enough to be able to afford, and
also willing to afford the quality that they want.

>
> They spend all their money on gymnasts.

That explains much.

William Robb

Re: It's over (was Re: Ilford in trouble? and digi snappers)

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Alexandru-Cristian Sarbu"
Subject: Re: It's over (was Re: Ilford in trouble? and digi snappers)


>
> Ok, I'll start talking about the death of the digital. Who wants to
join?
> 

I do.
Back in the late 1980s, compact video cameras started to become very
popular. For a while, we sold more of them than SLR's, though I never
managed to sell one myself.
For about a year, film processing saw a small slump.
Then it bounced back with a vengeance when people relaized that what
they wanted was pictures, not bad television.
For me, this is a good thing, as digital is a huge market to have
open up from my perspective.
Not that this means anything to the conversation, but I have just
shot a wedding, and had a lot of wine immediately after.
Now, for the next hour or so, I will sit here and spew.
HAR!!

William Robb

Re: Objectif du Jour

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Joseph Tainter"
Subject: Objectif du Jour


> I am wondering why there has been a sudden surge of interest in the
FA
> 77. Just curiousity. I wanted one, other PDMLers want one, someone
of
> dpreview wanted one, someone else not on either list wanted one -- 
and
> those are just the ones I know of. Possible reasons:

I got my 77 well before I got the istD, and found it ot be a very
limited application lens.
It is definitely a better lens on the istD.

William Robb

Re: Pentax Filters

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Pat Curran"
Subject: Pentax Filters



> Strange that I found no reference to any of the other filters
listed in the
> two "helpful" replies to my initial post on this subject - my dog
told that
> these were cruel jokes played on me by some bad apples on PDML, but
I stood
> up for you guys and tonight my dog went to bed with no dinner. So
there,
> that will teach him to mistrust PDML posts.

Well, then, now you should quietly shake your head and go feed your
dog.
He's a friggin dog for Lord's sake, you expect him to be the smart
one of the group?

You ever fake throwing a ball for your dog and then laugh about how
easily fooled he is?
Feel really smart about it, you just fooled a dog, whos inherent
tendency is to trust you.

Ya, you accidentaly kit one of my buttons.

William Robb

Occasional gallery

[Derby Chang]

I posted a small gallery of pics taken of my friend's CD release. All 
pics taken with the 77mm Ltd. It was the first time I did this - 
usually, I had my security blanket along as well (the FA*85). Shooting 
directly into the lights is fun.

http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~derbyc/SlightDelay/index.htm
D
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~derbyc

RE: An Enzo at the Dream Cruise

[David Schneider]

Paul:

Nice Shot!

However, one has to question just what the blond in the pickup truck
just behind the Ferarri found so interesting, especially with such a
wonderful car in front of her!  I would have thought that everyone
stared, and kept starting at that car!

One of the criticisms that I heard about the *ist D was that the
pictures were soft. I guess shooting in RAW mode takes that away, as the
colors on the car and the amount of detail are very pleasing to me.

Anyway... nice!
david

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.736 / Virus Database: 490 - Release Date: 8/9/2004
 

Re: It's over (was Re: Ilford in trouble? and digi snappers)

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Alexandru-Cristian Sarbu wrote:
Ok, I'll start talking about the death of the digital. Who wants to join?

Alex Sarbu
- Original Message -
From: "Frantisek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CRB" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: It's over (was Re: Ilford in trouble? and digi snappers)
 

And it functions just as social problems I studied in sociology - a
lobby group can create enough talk about a supposed problem that it
then really translates into reality and becomes a problem. Easy to do.
What you say so lightly (death of film) is in fact helping the film to
die.
Good light!
  fra
   


---
http://www.videomax.ro/  -  Cautam cinefili pentru premiere!
 

With my system down all day I guess I missed Fra's message. But  it says 
about what I have been trying to say all along. I think you digital guys 
are trying to destroy the future of my hobby. GRINNING SLIGHTLY.

Re: Keep Rollei 6003 6x6 or get Pentax 645N II?

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "John L"
Subject: Keep Rollei 6003 6x6 or get Pentax 645N II?



> My SECOND question is to anyone that has used BOTH Pentax 645N II
system
> and Rollei 600x series.  Should I dump the Rollei and get on w/
life and
> easy to find lenses at reasonable prices?  Or should I wait it out
to
> get the lenses I want (sees like it could be a long time)?

Keep the Rollei and enjoy it.
Don't be married to the idea of only having one brand of film camera.
A Pentax 645 may come along at some point, and then you have two
systems to build upon.

William Robb

Re: In-camera sharpening question (take 2)

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Caveman"
Subject: Re: In-camera sharpening question (take 2)


> Bill,
>
> In your experience, do you get better results when you apply
sharpening
> in the machine to an initially softer image, or when you get a
sharper
> image and you apply lower or no sharpening in the machine ? (I ask
this
> since the camera's / machine's algorithms are probably different)

I can't say. I rarely touch the machine sharpening parameter.

>
> And do you usually adjust that parameter to each customer's set of
> files, or do you have a "default" setting that you rarely adjust ?

Mine is set to zero. I don't adjust it for customers files.

>
> Is color balance an issue for you or is it easily
corrected/adjusted ?

Colour balance is either very easy, or else impossible. Nothing in
between.
Most of the time, printing digital is done by pushing "start'. I have
my machine well in line, what I see, really is what I get, so I do my
quality control at the monitor, and rarely inspect the prints that
closely. I look at prints from film much more closely.

>
> Except the over sharpening issue you noticed with canons, is there
any
> other issue related to these digicams that you noticed ?

Canon 3.2 megapixel cameras as a family seemed at one time to be
prone to aliasing. Honestly, I don't know if that is fixed now or
not. You have one, you tell me.

>
> And since I can't refrain from asking it: are there any brands that
> consistently give the best / worst prints ?

For that, I would have to be checking EXIF data, which I don't do.

William Robb

Re: Weird "Scratch" on a negative

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Billy Abbott"
Subject: Weird "Scratch" on a negative



> http://cowfish.org.uk/paw/rob-scratched.jpg

> Anyone have any ideas what could have caused it?

Lint or a hair or some such dried onto the emulsion more than likely.
Soaking the negative in a wetting agent (a couple of drops of dish
soap in a liter of room temp water will do might loosen it enough
that it will wipe off with a light finger scrubbing.

William Robb

Re: Keep Rollei 6003 6x6 or get Pentax 645N II?

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Buy the 645 and send the Rollei to me (GRIN). How can you ask others to 
make a choice like that for you. I would prefer the Rollei by a vast 
margin even if I had to live with only one lens forever. But that is me. 
YMMV!

--
John L wrote:
Hi group, been lurking for awhile.  I've posted this to the Pentax group 
too.

I'm in pretty deep with Pentax 35mm equipment.
But, I've always wanted a Rollei MF camera.  Saw a 6003 w/ 80mm f2.8 on 
ebay and at a decent price, so I bought it.

I knew going into it, new lenses are not cheap, but had seen reasonable
prices on a few used.  But did not realize the availablity of reasonably
priced used ones are slim to none.  (I would even settle for either
using old lenses w/ stop down metering OR even renting them 
occasionally, I live in Chicago and no one rents them).  I'm getting 
antsy waiting for lenses to come around at a fair price.

My question is to anyone that has used BOTH Pentax 645N II system
and Rollei 600x series.  I'm wondering if I dump the Rollei and get on 
w/ life and easy to find lenses at reasonable prices?  Or should I wait 
it out to get the lenses I want (seems like it could be a long time)?

I can use the Pentax MF lenses w/ adaptor on my 35mm equipment.
Are Zeiss and Schneider lenses that much better than Pentax to justify 
waiting?  Can I really look at a picture and tell if it was take with 
either?  Can anyone answer without letting emotion of liking one system 
better than another answer take over?

Lastly, I'm greatful I can ponder such questions in my life, I know 
others are not so fortunate.

Looking forward to everyone's opinion.
TIA,
John

Re: It's over (was Re: Ilford in trouble? and digi snappers)

[Caveman]

From: "Alexandru-Cristian Sarbu"
Ok, I'll start talking about the death of the digital. Who wants to
join?
LOL. Actually if someone will kill it would be the manufacturers 
continuing the megapixel race instead of addressing the real issues. 
Like making oooh aaah 7 MPixels digicams with f 1:6.3 at zoom's long end 
and a maximum usable ISO speed of 100. You have to chose between camera 
shake and completely drowning the image in noise. Compared to a decent 
film P&S with 400 or 800 ISO film, there's absolutely no contest in low 
light conditions.

Re: An Enzo at the Dream Cruise

[John Francis]

> 
> One of the criticisms that I heard about the *ist D was that the
> pictures were soft. I guess shooting in RAW mode takes that away, as the
> colors on the car and the amount of detail are very pleasing to me.

You can't really judge sharpness on a downsized (900x600) jpeg image.
The colour is nice - that A400 is definitely a very nice piece of glass.
And Paul has a very good eye for light - did you see his recent Bel-Air?

The images I put up recently  were all shot
on the *ist-D using best-quality JPEG (I would usually have switched to
RAW for the F1 car, but it was an unscheduled appearance and I forgot).
There are a couple of then (the 250TR, for one) that I'm going to try
printing at 13x19. If they're sharp and/or detailed enough for that,
I'm happy.   Caveat:  I hang my prints on the wall - I don't pore over
them with a loupe.  Perhaps I'm too easily satisfied.

Lens identification ?

[Caveman]

Can someone help poor caveman identify this lens ?
http://www.pbase.com/image/33130041

RE: Pentax Filters

[David Miers]

Please let that be a bad joke!  Feed the dog or else!!!

> Strange that I found no reference to any of the other filters 
> listed in the
> two "helpful" replies to my initial post on this subject - my dog 
> told that
> these were cruel jokes played on me by some bad apples on PDML, 
> but I stood
> up for you guys and tonight my dog went to bed with no dinner. So there,
> that will teach him to mistrust PDML posts.
> 
> Pat
> 

Re: Lens identification ?

[Peter J. Alling]

Looks like a black light socket with a flood light screwed into it.
Caveman wrote:
Can someone help poor caveman identify this lens ?
http://www.pbase.com/image/33130041


--
Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is a virtue. Fleas are interested 
in dogs.
   P. J. O'Rourke

PAW - NOT a bug or a bird

[Christian Skofteland]

http://home.mindspring.com/~c_skofteland/id26.html

I found this little guy crawling through the grass while on a walk with my
wife and daughters.  It was right around 1pm, over 90F and really humid.

details: Pentax *ist D; Vivitar Series 1 105mm F2.5 Macro f8 @ 1/160 ISO
400; Shot as a JPEG; no cropping; resized for the web.

Comments always appreciated.

Christian

Re: Lens identification ?

[Caveman]

Great, that is correct:
http://www.pbase.com/image/33130914
You win a ride with da' Montreal gals:
http://www.pbase.com/image/33130923
;-)
Peter J. Alling wrote:
Looks like a black light socket with a flood light screwed into it.
Caveman wrote:
Can someone help poor caveman identify this lens ?
http://www.pbase.com/image/33130041

Re: Lens identification ?

[Dr. Shaun Canning]

Damn, really?
I thought it might have been the new DA* 400mm  F/2.0 IF ED with IS, and 
the wireless bluetooth connection I had been hearing rumours about...

That silver thingy on-top sure looks like a wireless aerial too me :-)
Cheers
Shaun
Peter J. Alling wrote:
Looks like a black light socket with a flood light screwed into it.
Caveman wrote:
Can someone help poor caveman identify this lens ?
http://www.pbase.com/image/33130041


--
_
Dr. Shaun Canning
P.O. Box 21, 
Dampier, WA,
6714, Australia.

m: 0414 967644
http://www.heritageservices.com.au
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
_