RE: spotmatics and unexposed film and gfm, oh my
Nice idea John - I did try something similar, but the negatives had curled so much during poor storage in a humid sub-tropical location I still ran out of time (and patience!) to get them satisfactorily scanned. John in Brisbane -Original Message- From: PDML On Behalf Of John Sent: Tuesday, 17 December 2019 2:21 AM To: pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: spotmatics and unexposed film and gfm, oh my On 12/13/2019 21:00:07, jco...@iinet.net.au wrote: > I have the Epson V500: when my mother reached her 100th. birthday in > 2018, my brother and I scanned all of her negatives, ranging in size > from 1.5inches square to 6x9cm and going back in time to the 1900's. > We were unable to scan the > 110 size negs as the scanner's holders can't really hold them flat > enough. The scanner did an excellent job (I have to confess we used > the Epson software for this job!) overall, even with some really flat > and mushy originals: makes me think some early cheap cameras really did have bottle-bottoms for a lens. > > John in Brisbane > > > When I was in school we just used a piece of glass to hold paper flat while exposing it. I wonder if that would work to hold negatives flat on the scanner bed? Maybe cut out an appropriate sized hole in a piece of black construction paper to fit the 110 negatives and hold both down with the sheet of glass? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: spotmatics and unexposed film and gfm, oh my
For most flatbed scanners, the focus is fixed and their DOF is such that they can easily accommodate a mm or two of film curvature. For best results, a glass plate works well to hold the negative flat, with the caveat that the glass itself must be extremely clean and the thinner the better to prevent optical effects. You have to be careful that the shiny side of the film (opposite the emulsion side) is not in contact with polished glass (ANR glass is best, but expensive). My film scanning rig for medium format and Minox is a glass plate hinged over a channel which I made from a couple of pieces of 300gsm paper and taped into position on my flat panel light box. This nets about a 0.8mm high channel through which the film can be drawn The light box's panel is not glossy so I capture the negs with the emulsion side up, preventing all Newton rings, and flip them for correct orientation in image processing. The captures are all made using raw mode on the camera which nets the greatest flexibility in tonal capture and editability. With my usual copy camera setup (Leica CL and one of two or three Leica R lenses that I find useful) this nets a 24 Mpixel image (at the limit, depending upon format proportions and/or how much 'slop space' I want to have to make centering the negative in post accurate. If find this to be quite good enough for most any size prints or web presentations I have in mind, even if it's nowhere near what the Nikon Super Coolscan 9000ED scanner could resolve from a 6x6 cm negative (and more than it could resolve from a Minox negative!). I can use the same setup for 35mm film formats but there I find the Nikon Coolscan V ED is still a better choice, since it makes handling lots of frames semi-automatic (set up a six frame strip, then say "scan" and walk away for 20 minutes while it works and outputs both VueScan TIFF and raw files at the same time). It's not much different time-wise for setup, just a bit more time consuming to do the actual scanning with the carriers I have. One key thing is that with the Nikon I have the APS film scanning carrier, and it's the only way I can scan APS film without destroying the film cassette. For the little APS film that I have to scan, it proves to be a plus to see it retrieved nicely. For Minox and Disk Camera formats, the negatives are indeed teensy so I go to the Leica Summicron-R 50mm or Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm fitted to the bellows and have to rack out a 2.5x to 3x magnification for a decent capture. Holding the Disk film is pain, I made a little jig with a small C clamp to hold the film from the center hub, but luckily the disk itself is rigid and doesn't need to be flattened or clamped. I only did Disk once or twice, my brother had one of those cameras, and it is really very difficult to get any quality out of those tiny negatives. Minox negs are only a tiny bit larger but the MInox lenses have all be of superlative quality and the film is much, much easier to handle, making getting decent results out of them far easier. Fun fun fun... I have the last rolls of both Minox C and Hasselblad 500CM film sitting on my desk to scan today. It's somewhat amusing: the aggregate film area of a roll of 36 exposure Minox film is about equal to one frame from the Hasselblad... The whole roll of Minox frames is only 32 square mm larger than one 6x6cm film negative. :) G > On Dec 16, 2019, at 8:21 AM, John wrote: > > On 12/13/2019 21:00:07, jco...@iinet.net.au wrote: >> I have the Epson V500: when my mother reached her 100th. birthday in 2018, >> my brother and I scanned all of her negatives, ranging in size from 1.5inches >> square to 6x9cm and going back in time to the 1900's. We were unable to scan >> the >> 110 size negs as the scanner's holders can't really hold them flat enough. >> The >> scanner did an excellent job (I have to confess we used the Epson software >> for >> this job!) overall, even with some really flat and mushy originals: makes me >> think some early cheap cameras really did have bottle-bottoms for a lens. > > > > John in Brisbane > > > > > > > > When I was in school we just used a piece of glass to hold paper flat while > exposing it. I wonder if that would work to hold negatives flat on the > scanner bed? > > Maybe cut out an appropriate sized hole in a piece of black construction > paper to fit the 110 negatives and hold both down with the sheet of glass? > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: spotmatics and unexposed film and gfm, oh my
Holding negs down with a piece of glass works after a fashion, but you usually get some moire. Special glass or plastic made for that purpose works better. I think Epson sells it. > On Dec 16, 2019, at 11:20 AM, John wrote: > > On 12/13/2019 21:00:07, jco...@iinet.net.au wrote: >> I have the Epson V500: when my mother reached her 100th. birthday in 2018, >> my brother and I scanned all of her negatives, ranging in size from 1.5inches >> square to 6x9cm and going back in time to the 1900's. We were unable to scan >> the >> 110 size negs as the scanner's holders can't really hold them flat enough. >> The >> scanner did an excellent job (I have to confess we used the Epson software >> for >> this job!) overall, even with some really flat and mushy originals: makes me >> think some early cheap cameras really did have bottle-bottoms for a lens. >> >> John in Brisbane >> >> >> > > When I was in school we just used a piece of glass to hold paper flat while > exposing it. I wonder if that would work to hold negatives flat on the > scanner bed? > > Maybe cut out an appropriate sized hole in a piece of black construction > paper to fit the 110 negatives and hold both down with the sheet of glass? > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: spotmatics and unexposed film and gfm, oh my
On 12/13/2019 21:00:07, jco...@iinet.net.au wrote: I have the Epson V500: when my mother reached her 100th. birthday in 2018, my brother and I scanned all of her negatives, ranging in size from 1.5inches square to 6x9cm and going back in time to the 1900's. We were unable to scan the 110 size negs as the scanner's holders can't really hold them flat enough. The scanner did an excellent job (I have to confess we used the Epson software for this job!) overall, even with some really flat and mushy originals: makes me think some early cheap cameras really did have bottle-bottoms for a lens. > > John in Brisbane > > > When I was in school we just used a piece of glass to hold paper flat while exposing it. I wonder if that would work to hold negatives flat on the scanner bed? Maybe cut out an appropriate sized hole in a piece of black construction paper to fit the 110 negatives and hold both down with the sheet of glass? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
PESO 2019 - 136 - GDG
Out for a bicycle ride last Thursday and looking for holiday themed snappies with the Polaroid, I spied these guys by the side of the road in someone's front yard and couldn't resist... https://flic.kr/p/2i1ayX2 Bring on the holidays! :D enjoy! G — "We all get to be young and foolish in our lives. If we survive that, we get to be old and foolish." -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Photo Theme idea
Be careful you don’t make an ass of yourself. -Original Message- >From: Larry Colen >Subject: Photo Theme idea > >I’m tempted to work on a theme next year photographing derrières, it would of >course be named 2020 hindsight. > >-- >Larry Colen >l...@red4est.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: spotmatics and unexposed film and gfm, oh my
Ive got the V500 - acquired on the recommendation of you list guys a while back -- very happy with it.. except I've managed to get a couple of scratches on the glass :-( from putting things on it to scan for ebay that I shouldn't have I guess. for 35mm negs and chromes I can avoid the scratched spots ann On 12/14/2019 7:06 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote: The Epson software is far superior to Vuescan on Epson flatbeds. The V500 does a good job. The V850 Is superb Paul On Dec 13, 2019, at 9:01 PM, jco...@iinet.net.au wrote: I have the Epson V500: when my mother reached her 100th. birthday in 2018, my brother and I scanned all of her negatives, ranging in size from 1.5inches square to 6x9cm and going back in time to the 1900's. We were unable to scan the 110 size negs as the scanner's holders can't really hold them flat enough. The scanner did an excellent job (I have to confess we used the Epson software for this job!) overall, even with some really flat and mushy originals: makes me think some early cheap cameras really did have bottle-bottoms for a lens. John in Brisbane -Original Message- From: PDML On Behalf Of P. J. Alling Sent: Saturday, 14 December 2019 9:03 AM To: pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: spotmatics and unexposed film and gfm, oh my I'm a little late to this but the Epson Perfection V550 is supposed to be pretty much the same engine as the V500. I keep looking at one but I haven't fired up my film scanner in such a long time... On 12/10/2019 1:03 AM, Bulent Celasun wrote: Flatbeds are ok, preferably with 35mm and 120 holders. I have Epson V500 with those adapters (no longer on the shelves). And I am a happy user of VueScan. It is simply too good for a business model from the customer's point of view. I also have a Nikon Coolscan V ED, a dedicated film scanner which is no longer supported. It does a better scanning of 135 but it can not take 120. Bulent - http://patoloji.gen.tr http://celasun.wordpress.com/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/bc_the_path/ http://photo.net/photodb/user?user_id=2226822 http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/artists/bulentcelasun Scott Loveless , 10 Ara 2019 Sal, 02:46 tarihinde şunu yazdı: It's me again, Margaret. My basement is full. Not "there's some stuff on the shelves we don't need and I'd like to clean them off to make room for the new Christmas decorations" full, but "tiny, narrow paths that don't quite get me to where I need to be, and if I don't come out in fifteen minutes call the paramedics and hope they have the jaws of life" full. If you'd asked me about my SP500 I'd have responded in the affirmative, but without a clue which box it was actually inside. Nevertheless, I found it the other day, along with a 135/3.5 Super Takumar and a 55/1.8 SMC Takumar. (I do like the feel of a Super Takumar lens.) The battery was surprisingly not dead and the operation of the mechanical parts smooth and effortless. The knurled bit on the end of the film advance lever is possibly one of my favorite features to be found on any camera. Which leads me to film. I need some. Voilà! The very next box I opened was full of film. Some of it was exposed, but the vast majority was unexposed 35mm. Lots of slide film and not an insignificant amount of b And another unexposed roll of Kodachrome. (Sigh. I find one of these every once in a while, crammed into a coat pocket, or a shoe box.) It's all past its best by date, but I think we're in business. A certain person, who shall remain anonymous, but who's name rhymes with Spark McRoberts, suggested I drag the black and white lab to GFM one more time. (Some of you may recall that I protested the photo competition's switch to digital by souping and then scanning my own film on-site.) Plans are to be there this year with enough chemicals to make your average state trooper call for SORT backup. Which leads me to film scanners. I need one. The Canon 8400turdbucket is no longer supported. They say the previous drivers should work with DOS10, but they don't. Flatbeds are ok, preferably with 35mm and 120 holders. I'm open to suggestion. See you in May/June. Don't say you weren't warned. -- Scott Loveless Camp Hill, PA USA http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/ __o _'\<,_ (*)/ (*) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Any idiot can shoot with a Canon, Nikon, or Sony, it takes a special kind of idiot to use a Pentax. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link
Re: Photo Theme idea
> On Dec 16, 2019, at 6:50 AM, David J Brooks wrote: > > I think we have officially bottomed out It tucchus long enough. > > Dave > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 9:13 AM Scott Loveless wrote: > >> Fantasstic idea! >> >> On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 8:51 AM mike wilson >> wrote: >>> >>> On 16 December 2019 at 13:36 Mark Roberts >> wrote: Larry Colen wrote: > I’m tempted to work on a theme next year photographing derrières, it >> would of course be named 2020 hindsight. Well, as long as you don't mind being the butt of everyone's jokes... >>> They need to be good looking, as well. You wouldn't want an annus >> horribilis. >>> >>> -- >>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> PDML@pdml.net >>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> >> >> >> -- >> Scott Loveless >> Camp Hill, PA USA >> http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/ >>__o >> _'\<,_ >> (*)/ (*) >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> > > > -- > Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. > www.caughtinmotion.com > http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ > York Region, Ontario, Canada > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Photo Theme idea
I think we have officially bottomed out Dave On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 9:13 AM Scott Loveless wrote: > Fantasstic idea! > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 8:51 AM mike wilson > wrote: > > > > > > > On 16 December 2019 at 13:36 Mark Roberts > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Larry Colen wrote: > > > > > > >I’m tempted to work on a theme next year photographing derrières, it > would of course be named 2020 hindsight. > > > > > > Well, as long as you don't mind being the butt of everyone's jokes... > > > > > They need to be good looking, as well. You wouldn't want an annus > horribilis. > > > > -- > > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > > PDML@pdml.net > > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > > > > -- > Scott Loveless > Camp Hill, PA USA > http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/ > __o > _'\<,_ > (*)/ (*) > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Photo Theme idea
Fantasstic idea! On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 8:51 AM mike wilson wrote: > > > > On 16 December 2019 at 13:36 Mark Roberts > > wrote: > > > > > > Larry Colen wrote: > > > > >I’m tempted to work on a theme next year photographing derrières, it would > > >of course be named 2020 hindsight. > > > > Well, as long as you don't mind being the butt of everyone's jokes... > > > They need to be good looking, as well. You wouldn't want an annus horribilis. > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- Scott Loveless Camp Hill, PA USA http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/ __o _'\<,_ (*)/ (*) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Photo Theme idea
> On 16 December 2019 at 13:36 Mark Roberts wrote: > > > Larry Colen wrote: > > >Im tempted to work on a theme next year photographing derrières, it would > >of course be named 2020 hindsight. > > Well, as long as you don't mind being the butt of everyone's jokes... > They need to be good looking, as well. You wouldn't want an annus horribilis. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Photo Theme idea
Larry Colen wrote: >Im tempted to work on a theme next year photographing derrières, it would of >course be named 2020 hindsight. Well, as long as you don't mind being the butt of everyone's jokes... -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: spotmatics and unexposed film and gfm, oh my
Some long-obsolete Epson model was my first choice way back when, but everyone was out of stock so I bought the 8400f. Wow, was that a big mistake. So far, the VueScan software is far superior to the Canon software. I'd still rather have something else, but for $90 I can nurse it along for another year or two. On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 7:07 AM Paul Stenquist wrote: > > The Epson software is far superior to Vuescan on Epson flatbeds. The V500 > does a good job. The V850 Is superb > > Paul > > > On Dec 13, 2019, at 9:01 PM, jco...@iinet.net.au wrote: > > > > I have the Epson V500: when my mother reached her 100th. birthday in 2018, > > my brother and I scanned all of her negatives, ranging in size from > > 1.5inches square to 6x9cm and going back in time to the 1900's. We were > > unable to scan the 110 size negs as the scanner's holders can't really hold > > them flat enough. The scanner did an excellent job (I have to confess we > > used the Epson software for this job!) overall, even with some really flat > > and mushy originals: makes me think some early cheap cameras really did > > have bottle-bottoms for a lens. > > > > > > John in Brisbane > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: PDML On Behalf Of P. J. Alling > > Sent: Saturday, 14 December 2019 9:03 AM > > To: pdml@pdml.net > > Subject: Re: spotmatics and unexposed film and gfm, oh my > > > > I'm a little late to this but the Epson Perfection V550 is supposed to be > > pretty much the same engine as the V500. I keep looking at one but I > > haven't fired up my film scanner in such a long time... > > > > On 12/10/2019 1:03 AM, Bulent Celasun wrote: > >>> Flatbeds are ok, preferably with 35mm and 120 holders. > >> I have Epson V500 with those adapters (no longer on the shelves). > >> And I am a happy user of VueScan. > >> It is simply too good for a business model from the customer's point of > >> view. > >> > >> I also have a Nikon Coolscan V ED, a dedicated film scanner which is > >> no longer supported. > >> It does a better scanning of 135 but it can not take 120. > >> > >> Bulent > >> > >> - > >> http://patoloji.gen.tr > >> http://celasun.wordpress.com/ > >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bc_the_path/ > >> http://photo.net/photodb/user?user_id=2226822 > >> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/artists/bulentcelasun > >> > >> Scott Loveless , 10 Ara 2019 Sal, 02:46 > >> tarihinde şunu yazdı: > >>> It's me again, Margaret. > >>> > >>> My basement is full. Not "there's some stuff on the shelves we don't > >>> need and I'd like to clean them off to make room for the new > >>> Christmas decorations" full, but "tiny, narrow paths that don't quite > >>> get me to where I need to be, and if I don't come out in fifteen > >>> minutes call the paramedics and hope they have the jaws of life" > >>> full. If you'd asked me about my SP500 I'd have responded in the > >>> affirmative, but without a clue which box it was actually inside. > >>> Nevertheless, I found it the other day, along with a 135/3.5 Super > >>> Takumar and a > >>> 55/1.8 SMC Takumar. (I do like the feel of a Super Takumar lens.) > >>> The battery was surprisingly not dead and the operation of the > >>> mechanical parts smooth and effortless. The knurled bit on the end > >>> of the film advance lever is possibly one of my favorite features to > >>> be found on any camera. Which leads me to film. I need some. > >>> > >>> Voilà! The very next box I opened was full of film. Some of it was > >>> exposed, but the vast majority was unexposed 35mm. Lots of slide > >>> film and not an insignificant amount of b And another unexposed > >>> roll of Kodachrome. (Sigh. I find one of these every once in a > >>> while, crammed into a coat pocket, or a shoe box.) It's all past its > >>> best by date, but I think we're in business. > >>> > >>> A certain person, who shall remain anonymous, but who's name rhymes > >>> with Spark McRoberts, suggested I drag the black and white lab to GFM > >>> one more time. (Some of you may recall that I protested the photo > >>> competition's switch to digital by souping and then scanning my own > >>> film on-site.) Plans are to be there this year with enough chemicals > >>> to make your average state trooper call for SORT backup. > >>> > >>> Which leads me to film scanners. I need one. The Canon > >>> 8400turdbucket is no longer supported. They say the previous drivers > >>> should work with DOS10, but they don't. Flatbeds are ok, preferably > >>> with 35mm and 120 holders. I'm open to suggestion. > >>> > >>> See you in May/June. Don't say you weren't warned. > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Scott Loveless > >>> Camp Hill, PA USA > >>> http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/ > >>> __o > >>> _'\<,_ > >>> (*)/ (*) > >>> > >>> -- > >>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > >>> PDML@pdml.net > >>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from
Re: Photo Theme idea
Well at least you won't get Busted! Alan C On 16-Dec-19 07:49 AM, Larry Colen wrote: I’m tempted to work on a theme next year photographing derrières, it would of course be named 2020 hindsight. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
