Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
Hi everyone, I've been asked to do a shoot of some historical sites but there is a catch. 1. The client wants full ownership rights to the images. Ie I won't be able to use the shots for any other purpose. 2. I have to supply a selection of 50 images from which the customer will make his own selection. Ie I will select the best 50 from the shoot(s) and supply them with minimal editing. 3. I estimate that each shoot should take approximately 2 days per site. including an element of post processing. ( I know the sites quite well ) All extra expenses will be covered by the client. I don't normally do photography on a commercial basis but I'm interested in this job due to the subject matter plus the extra income will also be welcome. What sort of permium should I put on point 1 What's the going rate for this sort of work. (mainland europe). Regards Patrick Genovese -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
In a message dated 1/24/2007 7:21:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Regards Patrick Genovese I am not a professional photographer but I'd have real problems with not being able to show at least one photo/image in my portfolio. I think you should insist on that. Say you won't sell them again, but in the future you need to be able to show one or more to others to show what you can do and that someone paid you to do it. I expect the professionals have some recommendations on how to word that. Marnie aka Doe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
- Original Message - From: "Patrick Genovese" Subject: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited > Hi everyone, > > I've been asked to do a shoot of some historical sites but there is a > catch. > > 1. The client wants full ownership rights to the images. Ie I won't be > able to use the shots for any other purpose. > 2. I have to supply a selection of 50 images from which the customer > will make his own selection. Ie I will select the best 50 from the > shoot(s) and supply them with minimal editing. > 3. I estimate that each shoot should take approximately 2 days per > site. including an element of post processing. ( I know the sites > quite well ) > > All extra expenses will be covered by the client. > > I don't normally do photography on a commercial basis but I'm > interested in this job due to the subject matter plus the extra income > will also be welcome. > > What sort of permium should I put on point 1 > > What's the going rate for this sort of work. (mainland europe). Depending on the laws of your country, the person paying for the work may own first right of copy to it anyway, so point one may be moot. Check the copyright laws of your country on this. If the contract wouldn't allow me to use the images at all, I would put a premium on the pictures, and would ask permission of the site owners to return at a future date and retake the pictures for my own purposes, were I so inclined as to wish to use them. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
I charge $1500 a day plus expenses for that kind of work in the U.S. That seems to be about the going rate for a part-time workmanlike photographer. Top commercial pros charge as much as $30,000 a day, but that buys the client a crew as well as the photographer. Paul -- Original message -- From: "Patrick Genovese" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Hi everyone, > > I've been asked to do a shoot of some historical sites but there is a catch. > > 1. The client wants full ownership rights to the images. Ie I won't be > able to use the shots for any other purpose. > 2. I have to supply a selection of 50 images from which the customer > will make his own selection. Ie I will select the best 50 from the > shoot(s) and supply them with minimal editing. > 3. I estimate that each shoot should take approximately 2 days per > site. including an element of post processing. ( I know the sites > quite well ) > > All extra expenses will be covered by the client. > > I don't normally do photography on a commercial basis but I'm > interested in this job due to the subject matter plus the extra income > will also be welcome. > > What sort of permium should I put on point 1 > > What's the going rate for this sort of work. (mainland europe). > > > Regards > > Patrick Genovese > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
In a message dated 1/24/2007 7:42:13 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Generally, the photographer can't resell the photos from a commercial shoot nor can he use them editorially. But in almost all instances, he can include them in his own portfolio. Paul = Curious, Paul. Does it need to be spelled out that he/she CAN use them in their own portfolio? Marnie aka Doe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
Generally, the photographer can't resell the photos from a commercial shoot nor can he use them editorially. But in almost all instances, he can include them in his own portfolio. Paul -- Original message -- From: "William Robb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > - Original Message - > From: "Patrick Genovese" > Subject: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I've been asked to do a shoot of some historical sites but there is a > > catch. > > > > 1. The client wants full ownership rights to the images. Ie I won't be > > able to use the shots for any other purpose. > > 2. I have to supply a selection of 50 images from which the customer > > will make his own selection. Ie I will select the best 50 from the > > shoot(s) and supply them with minimal editing. > > 3. I estimate that each shoot should take approximately 2 days per > > site. including an element of post processing. ( I know the sites > > quite well ) > > > > All extra expenses will be covered by the client. > > > > I don't normally do photography on a commercial basis but I'm > > interested in this job due to the subject matter plus the extra income > > will also be welcome. > > > > What sort of permium should I put on point 1 > > > > What's the going rate for this sort of work. (mainland europe). > > Depending on the laws of your country, the person paying for the work may > own first right of copy to it anyway, so point one may be moot. > Check the copyright laws of your country on this. > If the contract wouldn't allow me to use the images at all, I would put a > premium on the pictures, and would ask permission of the site owners to > return at a future date and retake the pictures for my own purposes, were I > so inclined as to wish to use them. > > William Robb > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
I've never seen it spelled out. Generally, it's just assumed that the photographer will show them in the portfolio if he or she chooses to do so. Paul -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > In a message dated 1/24/2007 7:42:13 AM Pacific Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Generally, the photographer can't resell the photos from a commercial shoot > nor can he use them editorially. But in almost all instances, he can include > them in his own portfolio. > Paul > = > Curious, Paul. Does it need to be spelled out that he/she CAN use them in > their own portfolio? > > Marnie aka Doe > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
"I've been asked to do a shoot of some historical sites but there is a catch. "1. The client wants full ownership rights to the images. Ie I won't be able to use the shots for any other purpose." - Serious question: In such a situation, what would prevent you from taking two identical digital frames of each shot, providing one to the client and keeping the second for yourself? If there was ever a question, the exif information would show that the image you supplied to the client was different from the one you kept for yourself. Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
I would guess that what this client is saying is that he wants to purchase exclusive rights to that particular visual. You can always keep a copy of the image -- without having to shoot more frames -- although I can't imagine shooting only one frame on any job. But regardless of how many frames you shoot, you can't sell the image again if you agreed that you would not. Paul -- Original message -- From: Joseph Tainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > "I've been asked to do a shoot of some historical sites but there is a > catch. > > "1. The client wants full ownership rights to the images. Ie I won't be > able to use the shots for any other purpose." > > - > > Serious question: In such a situation, what would prevent you from > taking two identical digital frames of each shot, providing one to the > client and keeping the second for yourself? If there was ever a > question, the exif information would show that the image you supplied to > the client was different from the one you kept for yourself. > > Joe > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
Joseph Tainter wrote: >Serious question: In such a situation, what would prevent you from >taking two identical digital frames of each shot, providing one to the >client and keeping the second for yourself? If there was ever a >question, the exif information would show that the image you supplied to >the client was different from the one you kept for yourself. If the images are substantially similar, it's just as much a violation of copyright even if they aren't absolutely identical. One court case I studied involved a photographer who was approached to license one of his photos for a CD booklet or cover. His rates were too high for the record company so they hired another photographer to go out and essentially duplicate the shot. After the CD went on sale the first photographer sued and won. You *really* don't want to mess with shady stuff like this. "One lawsuit can ruin your whole day" - Bob Shell -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
Tear sheets should be a demand that goes with any sale. Tear sheets are better than portfolio shots because they have obviously been paid for and published. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > In a message dated 1/24/2007 7:21:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Regards > > Patrick Genovese > > I am not a professional photographer but I'd have real problems with not > being able to show at least one photo/image in my portfolio. I think you > should > insist on that. Say you won't sell them again, but in the future you need to > be > able to show one or more to others to show what you can do and that someone > paid you to do it. > > I expect the professionals have some recommendations on how to word that. > > Marnie aka Doe > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
Nowadays most pubs send you a PDF of the page layout. Other clients should be willing to do the same. The PDF is even better than a tear sheet because you can print it on good photo paper. Paul -- Original message -- From: graywolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Tear sheets should be a demand that goes with any sale. Tear sheets are > better than portfolio shots because they have obviously been paid for > and published. > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > In a message dated 1/24/2007 7:21:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > Regards > > > > Patrick Genovese > > > > I am not a professional photographer but I'd have real problems with not > > being able to show at least one photo/image in my portfolio. I think you > should > > insist on that. Say you won't sell them again, but in the future you need > > to > be > > able to show one or more to others to show what you can do and that someone > > paid you to do it. > > > > I expect the professionals have some recommendations on how to word that. > > > > Marnie aka Doe > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
Hi everyone, Thank you for your advice... Your input is very apreceated. My thoughts on the matter are a bit clearer now Regards Patrick -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
> > From: > "Patrick Genovese" > Hi everyone, > > I've been asked to do a shoot of some historical sites but there is a > catch. > > 1. The client wants full ownership rights to the images. Ie I won't be > able to use the shots for any other purpose. > 2. I have to supply a selection of 50 images from which the customer > will make his own selection. Ie I will select the best 50 from the > shoot(s) and supply them with minimal editing. > 3. I estimate that each shoot should take approximately 2 days per > site. including an element of post processing. ( I know the sites > quite well ) > > All extra expenses will be covered by the client. > > I don't normally do photography on a commercial basis but I'm > interested in this job due to the subject matter plus the extra income > will also be welcome. > > What sort of permium should I put on point 1 > It sounds like a solicitation for "work for hire". Does the client retain rights to ALL of the images from the shoot or just the 50 or so images submitted? > What's the going rate for this sort of work. (mainland europe). Ask for a €1200 day rate plus travel expenses. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
> It sounds like a solicitation for "work for hire". Does the client > retain rights to ALL of the images from the shoot or just the 50 or so > images submitted? Effectively that's what it is but the rights are to the 50 submitted images only although i'm not sure where I stand if I shoot very similar images and keep some for myself. > > What's the going rate for this sort of work. (mainland europe). > Ask for a €1200 day rate plus travel expenses. That's sounds reasonable. > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > -- Regards Patrick Genovese -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
Silly question: What's tear sheets? Tim Mostly harmless (just plain Norwegian) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of graywolf Sent: 24. januar 2007 18:29 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited Tear sheets should be a demand that goes with any sale. Tear sheets are better than portfolio shots because they have obviously been paid for and published. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > In a message dated 1/24/2007 7:21:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Regards > > Patrick Genovese > > I am not a professional photographer but I'd have real problems with not > being able to show at least one photo/image in my portfolio. I think you should > insist on that. Say you won't sell them again, but in the future you need to be > able to show one or more to others to show what you can do and that someone > paid you to do it. > > I expect the professionals have some recommendations on how to word that. > > Marnie aka Doe > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Tear+Sheets : tear sheet n. A page cut or torn from a periodical and used chiefly to provide evidence to an advertiser of the publication of an advertisement. On Jan 25, 2007, at 7:54 AM, Tim Øsleby wrote: > Silly question: What's tear sheets? > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
One question you should ask are the asking for exclusive rights? "Exclusive rights" means that they are the only one that can use the photos. If they are then you can not sell even out takes. But being a historical organization they my only want "unrestricted rights" which means that they can do anything they want with the photos, but you can use them for non-competing purposes as well. The thing is that all this needs to be negotiated, and put into writing before you do a bit of work on it. Newcomers to the photo business are always afraid of this step for some reason, but it is the only way both sides are going to know exactly what the other expects. Do it! -graywolf Patrick Genovese wrote: >> It sounds like a solicitation for "work for hire". Does the client >> retain rights to ALL of the images from the shoot or just the 50 or so >> images submitted? > > Effectively that's what it is but the rights are to the 50 submitted > images only although i'm not sure where I stand if I shoot very > similar images and keep some for myself. > >>> What's the going rate for this sort of work. (mainland europe). >> Ask for a €1200 day rate plus travel expenses. > > That's sounds reasonable. > >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
Not a silly question at all. Tear sheets are pages cut out of the publications where your photos appeared. Usually they simply give you several copies of the publication and you cut them out yourself. In the case of expensive books you usually get just the pages before they are bound into books. I am not sure the PDF's Paul mentioned are really an equivalent as anyone can do a layout, the actual pages prove that the work was published. A working photographers portfolio usually consists of tear sheets and a few carefully aimed photos that show he can do work for that client that has even more impact that his previously published work. -graywolf Tim Øsleby wrote: > Silly question: What's tear sheets? > > > Tim > Mostly harmless (just plain Norwegian) > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > graywolf > Sent: 24. januar 2007 18:29 > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > Subject: Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited > > Tear sheets should be a demand that goes with any sale. Tear sheets are > better than portfolio shots because they have obviously been paid for > and published. > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> In a message dated 1/24/2007 7:21:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >> Regards >> >> Patrick Genovese >> >> I am not a professional photographer but I'd have real problems with not >> being able to show at least one photo/image in my portfolio. I think you > should >> insist on that. Say you won't sell them again, but in the future you need > to be >> able to show one or more to others to show what you can do and that > someone >> paid you to do it. >> >> I expect the professionals have some recommendations on how to word that. >> >> Marnie aka Doe >> > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
I find that only lower echelon pros include tear sheets in portfolios. The top guys let their work speak for them, and it's understood that they're widely published. As far as PDFs are concerned, PDFs, printed on photo paper, are nice because you get a much more finished look than with an offset printed page. They're less interruptive in an attractive portfolio. One would have to be a cretin to falsify publications. Paul -- Original message -- From: graywolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Not a silly question at all. Tear sheets are pages cut out of the > publications where your photos appeared. Usually they simply give you > several copies of the publication and you cut them out yourself. In the > case of expensive books you usually get just the pages before they are > bound into books. I am not sure the PDF's Paul mentioned are really an > equivalent as anyone can do a layout, the actual pages prove that the > work was published. > > A working photographers portfolio usually consists of tear sheets and a > few carefully aimed photos that show he can do work for that client that > has even more impact that his previously published work. > > -graywolf > > > Tim Øsleby wrote: > > Silly question: What's tear sheets? > > > > > > Tim > > Mostly harmless (just plain Norwegian) > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > > graywolf > > Sent: 24. januar 2007 18:29 > > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > > Subject: Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited > > > > Tear sheets should be a demand that goes with any sale. Tear sheets are > > better than portfolio shots because they have obviously been paid for > > and published. > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> In a message dated 1/24/2007 7:21:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > >> Regards > >> > >> Patrick Genovese > >> > >> I am not a professional photographer but I'd have real problems with not > >> being able to show at least one photo/image in my portfolio. I think you > > should > >> insist on that. Say you won't sell them again, but in the future you need > > to be > >> able to show one or more to others to show what you can do and that > > someone > >> paid you to do it. > >> > >> I expect the professionals have some recommendations on how to word that. > >> > >> Marnie aka Doe > >> > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
On 25/1/07, Tim Øsleby, discombobulated, unleashed: >Silly question: What's tear sheets? Handkerchiefs. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >I find that only lower echelon pros include tear sheets in portfolios. >The top guys let their work speak for them, and it's understood >that they're widely published. As far as PDFs are concerned, PDFs, >printed on photo paper, are nice because you get a much more >finished look than with an offset printed page. They're less >interruptive in an attractive portfolio. Indeed, I have made PDFs from many of my hard copy tearsheets. It's been particularly useful for large format (like tabloid) publications because I can shrink everything down enough to show the whole page on a standard 8.5 x 11 sheet and thus show the image in context. >One would have to be a cretin to falsify publications. No argument there! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
> > From: > Patrick Genovese >> It sounds like a solicitation for "work for hire". Does the client >> retain rights to ALL of the images from the shoot or just the 50 or so >> images submitted? > > Effectively that's what it is but the rights are to the 50 submitted > images only although i'm not sure where I stand if I shoot very > similar images and keep some for myself. It would depend on just how closely similar they are. Anything of the same scene taken from the same place, similar framing, time of day ... would probably violate your contract. I wouldn't be anxious to use images from the same shoot for other clients. It's just asking for hassles down the road somewhere. Other photographs of the same location taken from a different point of view, different time, different weather ... should not. Others have pointed out that even though you give up the rights to the images, you still should be able to use them for your portfolio as an example of previous work, although I'd want that explicitly spelled out in the contract just to avoid any future questions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
> > From: > Tim Øsleby > Silly question: What's tear sheets? > > > Tim Literally, the pages from the publication where the images appear. Often you'll get courtesy copies of the publication and have to tear the sheets out yourself. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
> >> >> From: >> Patrick Genovese >>> It sounds like a solicitation for "work for hire". Does the client >>> retain rights to ALL of the images from the shoot or just the 50 or so >>> images submitted? >> >> Effectively that's what it is but the rights are to the 50 submitted >> images only although i'm not sure where I stand if I shoot very >> similar images and keep some for myself. > > It would depend on just how closely similar they are. Let me correct this. What the buyer gets, and what you keep and can use elsewhere, depends on your contract with the buyer. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
I will accept your comments, I am 20 years out of the business, and you certainly know more about current practice than I. However you still have to demand the PDF's, correct? My experience was that editors volunteered nothing, and I don't think that has changed much. And, I was a lower echelon pro, as will be anyone trying trying to break into the business. You do not start out with the world beating on your door A few wind up with that happening. Very few, I believe. My knowledge of how the big guys work came from popping into their studio and shooting the shit, something they were surprisingly willing to do as long as they were not in the middle of a shoot. I did not start out with connections in the business like you (how long did you say you were in advertising?), so I do know how hard it is to break in as a nobody. Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately , I had a couple of other decent paying trades and was not willing to go hungry long enough to make it above the LE level. I do suggest a couple of courses on business management and basic accounting for anyone wanting to be self-employed. They have stood me in good stead in my old age; my therapist is amazed that I can manage my limited income so well, most of her clients can not. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I find that only lower echelon pros include tear sheets in portfolios. The > top guys let their work speak for them, and it's understood that they're > widely published. As far as PDFs are concerned, PDFs, printed on photo > paper, are nice because you get a much more finished look than with an offset > printed page. They're less interruptive in an attractive portfolio. One would > have to be a cretin to falsify publications. > Paul > -- Original message -- > From: graywolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Not a silly question at all. Tear sheets are pages cut out of the >> publications where your photos appeared. Usually they simply give you >> several copies of the publication and you cut them out yourself. In the >> case of expensive books you usually get just the pages before they are >> bound into books. I am not sure the PDF's Paul mentioned are really an >> equivalent as anyone can do a layout, the actual pages prove that the >> work was published. >> >> A working photographers portfolio usually consists of tear sheets and a >> few carefully aimed photos that show he can do work for that client that >> has even more impact that his previously published work. >> >> -graywolf >> >> >> Tim Øsleby wrote: >>> Silly question: What's tear sheets? >>> >>> >>> Tim >>> Mostly harmless (just plain Norwegian) >>> >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of >>> graywolf >>> Sent: 24. januar 2007 18:29 >>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> Subject: Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited >>> >>> Tear sheets should be a demand that goes with any sale. Tear sheets are >>> better than portfolio shots because they have obviously been paid for >>> and published. >>> >>> >>> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>>> In a message dated 1/24/2007 7:21:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Patrick Genovese >>>> >>>> I am not a professional photographer but I'd have real problems with not >>>> being able to show at least one photo/image in my portfolio. I think you >>> should >>>> insist on that. Say you won't sell them again, but in the future you need >>> to be >>>> able to show one or more to others to show what you can do and that >>> someone >>>> paid you to do it. >>>> >>>> I expect the professionals have some recommendations on how to word that. >>>> >>>> Marnie aka Doe >>>> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651 - Release Date: 1/24/2007 > 6:48 PM -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
Hi Tom, Editors usually send me something, at least a magazine or two. I usually have to ask for PDFs, but they don't mind sending them. They're basically a no-cost extra. I've worked in advertising for 25 years, but my advertising role hasn't done much to get me photo assignments, due to separation of church and state. (Agencies never use staff to do work that can be billed at a markup.) But the agency connections did get me some work with the television production companies that shot my commercials. However, most of my photo connections came from my days in editorial, which preceded my ad career and has continued sporadically on a freelance basis. As a journalist, I provide both copy and photos. Paul On Jan 25, 2007, at 10:18 PM, graywolf wrote: > I will accept your comments, I am 20 years out of the business, and you > certainly know more about current practice than I. However you still > have to demand the PDF's, correct? My experience was that editors > volunteered nothing, and I don't think that has changed much. > > And, I was a lower echelon pro, as will be anyone trying trying to > break > into the business. You do not start out with the world beating on your > door A few wind up with that happening. Very few, I believe. > > My knowledge of how the big guys work came from popping into their > studio and shooting the shit, something they were surprisingly willing > to do as long as they were not in the middle of a shoot. I did not > start > out with connections in the business like you (how long did you say you > were in advertising?), so I do know how hard it is to break in as a > nobody. Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately , I had a couple of other > decent paying trades and was not willing to go hungry long enough to > make it above the LE level. > > I do suggest a couple of courses on business management and basic > accounting for anyone wanting to be self-employed. They have stood me > in > good stead in my old age; my therapist is amazed that I can manage my > limited income so well, most of her clients can not. > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> I find that only lower echelon pros include tear sheets in >> portfolios. The top guys let their work speak for them, and it's >> understood that they're widely published. As far as PDFs are >> concerned, PDFs, printed on photo paper, are nice because you get a >> much more finished look than with an offset printed page. They're >> less interruptive in an attractive portfolio. One would have to be a >> cretin to falsify publications. >> Paul >> -- Original message -- >> From: graywolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> Not a silly question at all. Tear sheets are pages cut out of the >>> publications where your photos appeared. Usually they simply give you >>> several copies of the publication and you cut them out yourself. In >>> the >>> case of expensive books you usually get just the pages before they >>> are >>> bound into books. I am not sure the PDF's Paul mentioned are really >>> an >>> equivalent as anyone can do a layout, the actual pages prove that the >>> work was published. >>> >>> A working photographers portfolio usually consists of tear sheets >>> and a >>> few carefully aimed photos that show he can do work for that client >>> that >>> has even more impact that his previously published work. >>> >>> -graywolf >>> >>> >>> Tim Øsleby wrote: >>>> Silly question: What's tear sheets? >>>> >>>> >>>> Tim >>>> Mostly harmless (just plain Norwegian) >>>> >>>> >>>> -Original Message- >>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >>>> Behalf Of >>>> graywolf >>>> Sent: 24. januar 2007 18:29 >>>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>> Subject: Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited >>>> >>>> Tear sheets should be a demand that goes with any sale. Tear sheets >>>> are >>>> better than portfolio shots because they have obviously been paid >>>> for >>>> and published. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2007 7:21:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, >>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >>>>> Regards >>>>> >>>>> Patrick Genovese >>>>> >>>>
RE: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited
Ah. At last an explanation I can understand ;-) It is what you always should carry when travelling in space. And thanks to the others who tried to enlighten me :-) Tim Mostly harmless (just plain Norwegian) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cotty Sent: 25. januar 2007 21:32 To: pentax list Subject: Re: Opportunity or Rip Off ? Advice Solicited On 25/1/07, Tim Øsleby, discombobulated, unleashed: >Silly question: What's tear sheets? Handkerchiefs. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
