Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
2009/1/17 Peter Alling : > If birds are related to dinosaurs maybe they did. > Not much would be left of our civilization after a few million years. Here's another guy that think no previous civilisation-building species has ever existed: http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/nonfiction/dinofaq.htm I find his arguments quite credible. And also, I have no problem extrapolating the argument to apply to our civilisation in the eyes of a future palaeobiologist. Next to the fossilised remains of our species, there would probably be stuff. Depending on time and age, it could be anything from arrowpoints to digital wristwatches. From modern age it's also likely that concrete structures would give our civilisation away, given his description of how seashells are easily fossilised. Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
Copper lasts a long time in the environment because it forms a nice layer of oxide that protects the underlying metal, but even that would eventually weather away, given enough time. -Original Message- >From: Luiz Felipe >Sent: Jan 20, 2009 9:19 AM >To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >Subject: Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion > >... do you really thing that much copper is going to last more than a >decade??? Only if some very, very imposing and well armed priesthood >took charge of it... more likely to end up in cookware. > >LF > >John Sessoms escreveu: >> From: Peter Alling >>> In a few million years the pyramids will be weathered to less than >>> hillocks; iron, even stainless steel, will oxidize to dust; >>> micro-organisms will have eaten rubber and plastic; glass will have >>> been smoothed to pebbles; little recognizable as an artifact will >>> remain. For example not too long ago, it seems that a couple of Ford >>> Truck sparkplugs from the 1920's were initially misidentified as >>> "geoids". The earth's crust is very active, and the biosphere even >>> more so. >> >> Yeah, but some things will still be recognizable. >> >> http://graphic-engine.swarthmore.edu/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/apes_07.jpg >> >> >> http://www.crrel.usace.army.mil/ierd/icejam/nstatue.gif >> >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> >> > >-- >Luiz Felipe >luiz.felipe at techmit.com.br >http://techmit.com.br/luizfelipe/ > > >-- >PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >PDML@pdml.net >http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow >the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
... do you really thing that much copper is going to last more than a decade??? Only if some very, very imposing and well armed priesthood took charge of it... more likely to end up in cookware. LF John Sessoms escreveu: From: Peter Alling In a few million years the pyramids will be weathered to less than hillocks; iron, even stainless steel, will oxidize to dust; micro-organisms will have eaten rubber and plastic; glass will have been smoothed to pebbles; little recognizable as an artifact will remain. For example not too long ago, it seems that a couple of Ford Truck sparkplugs from the 1920's were initially misidentified as "geoids". The earth's crust is very active, and the biosphere even more so. Yeah, but some things will still be recognizable. http://graphic-engine.swarthmore.edu/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/apes_07.jpg http://www.crrel.usace.army.mil/ierd/icejam/nstatue.gif -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Luiz Felipe luiz.felipe at techmit.com.br http://techmit.com.br/luizfelipe/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
From: Peter Alling In a few million years the pyramids will be weathered to less than hillocks; iron, even stainless steel, will oxidize to dust; micro-organisms will have eaten rubber and plastic; glass will have been smoothed to pebbles; little recognizable as an artifact will remain. For example not too long ago, it seems that a couple of Ford Truck sparkplugs from the 1920's were initially misidentified as "geoids". The earth's crust is very active, and the biosphere even more so. Yeah, but some things will still be recognizable. http://graphic-engine.swarthmore.edu/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/apes_07.jpg http://www.crrel.usace.army.mil/ierd/icejam/nstatue.gif -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
Jostein, It doesn't worry me at all. It will be quite a puzzle to future researchers. You do know that archeology students in Arizona or New Mexico have been sent out to dig in the old city dumps. This is their way to learn the trade. I am facinated by the idea of what they find. Regards, Bob S. On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 6:29 AM, AlunFoto wrote: > 2009/1/19 Bob Sullivan : >> Jostein, >> Our garbage dumps will be a treasure trove for future records >> of our existance. > > Indeed! > Doesn't that make you the slightest bit worried? :-) > > Jostein > > -- > http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ > http://alunfoto.blogspot.com > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
2009/1/19 Luiz Felipe : > Jostein, for some artifact from the past to be found, it takes two - it > needs to survive, and someone needs to find it. Then it's more likely to be > labeled as fertility token or religious sculpture. It could. Depending on their ability as a species to recognise either. Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
Jostein, for some artifact from the past to be found, it takes two - it needs to survive, and someone needs to find it. Then it's more likely to be labeled as fertility token or religious sculpture. Assuming the next race will give a damn about the previous ones... Give it enough time, even our radioactive dumpster is going to disappear. LF AlunFoto escreveu: Peter, your initial argument was that few humans live where fossilisation takes place. I argue that many of our artifacts are deposited in places that do favour fossilisation. And I would say that shipwrecks in particular are prone to fossilisation because of the amount of detritus that rains down on them. Many wrecks will be covered in oxygen free mud long before they have had time to rot or rust, and then will have reasonable probability of reaching the fossil record. From echo sounding in eg. the Black Sea, we know that human artefacts are already preserved that way in the form of drowned settlements. In the Scandinavian countries, there are still untouched bronze-age burial mounds that do contain wooden ships preserved in peat, along with weaponry, jewelry and tools. In Denmark, nearly perfect specimens of stone-age people have been unearthed from marshlands which, incidentally, would also be likely candidates for future fossilisation. In short, I think you're overly pessimistic. The abundance of our species across the face of this planet is so extensive that fossilisation of enough artefacts to make a mark in history is more likely than not. Another matter is that future geologists will find sliver-thin strata in the sediments that are nearly saturated with non-natural chemical contaminants such as dioxins or moderately soluble mercury salts. And if they're lucky they'll stumble upon some very unlikely deposits of highly concentrated plutonium in concrete. That should be a good puzzle for them , but I think you know what I mean. Jostein 2009/1/19 Peter Alling : In a few million years the pyramids will be weathered to less than hillocks; iron, even stainless steel, will oxidize to dust; micro-organisms will have eaten rubber and plastic; glass will have been smoothed to pebbles; little recognizable as an artifact will remain. For example not too long ago, it seems that a couple of Ford Truck sparkplugs from the 1920's were initially misidentified as "geoids". The earth's crust is very active, and the biosphere even more so. -Original Message- From: Bob Sullivan Sent: Jan 19, 2009 6:55 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion Jostein, Our garbage dumps will be a treasure trove for future records of our existance. Regards, Bob S. On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 4:03 AM, AlunFoto wrote: While human bodies stand little chance of fossilising, many of our cultural artefacts do. Structures such as pyramids, concrete, cast iron, shipwrecks in mud, etc, etc. We started out pondering whether a civilisation could have existed before the emergence of humans. I would argue that any such civilisation would have been discovered by fossilised remains of their artefacts. It is of course possible to imagine an intelligent species not building anything to support their existence, but that defies the definition of civilisation, doesn't it. On an eerie sidenote, I suspect human civilisation's largest contribution to a future fossil record will be fossilised garbage... :-( Jostein 2009/1/19 Luiz Felipe : Peter, I saw "Stan" (a T-Rex fossil) at Disney's Animal Kingdom and the folks at the exibition told me how few specimens existed. It's a very difficult puzzle indeed. There are lots of unexplained artifacts from pre-historic ages that suggest mankind did have a former civilization that vanished in some global catastrophe, leaving scattered groups with tales of destruction by flood and fire. We usually regard our achievements as important, but if mankind disappeared the next tenants would have little to remember us. LF Peter Alling escreveu: On a serious note, most people don't realize how little of the fossil record actually exists. I think the entire T-Rex species is known from fewer than 100 individuals with only a half a dozen considered "nearly complete", representing several hundred thousand years of the species' existence. The amount of time that hominids an entire group of mammalian species have been on earth is less time than the existence of that one species of dinosaur was. If the same amount of time elapsed between the rise of a new intelligent creature and our demise, as between us and the dinosaurs, I doubt enough would exist of our works to show that we were tool users. In fact though there are an awful lot of us, I doubt there would be many surviving fossils, as most of us live in areas not conducive to fossil formation. -Original Message--
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
Possible, previous human or non-human civilizations alike, our understanding of the past is flawed, IMHO. I wouldn't pretend to have real knowledge about the matter, but have read about some archaeological findings that were reexamined after a long time of their discovery and acquired a possible new role, a fairly advanced technological one. Like fragments of ceramic and metals that would be an ancient battery, a wooden sculpture of a stylish hawk that is said to glide as perfectly as modern scale planes, and others. Our knowledge gets thinner as we move into the past. Many things may happen in 50.000 years - many things may have happened and we may never know based on how little evidence actually survives such small (planetary scale here) time span. Just remember anything big enough to wipe out mankind probably would bring great geological changes too. That could wipe out coastlines and many important cities and structures. In low technology areas any metal get re-used as long as possible - the tools I throw away in recycle bins here in the city would be gladly forged into other utilities, in other places. Plastics and other sinthetics are harder to re-use in low tech areas, but burn rather easily. How long do you think the survivors of some really important catastrophe would take to dismantle the next abandoned small city? The kind of technology we have today was possible because lots of factors were present - and were used by some small number of specific individuals in the adequate moment. A human society could survive, being isolated and low tech enough to endure. After a time, they may even remember the giant waves, or the rains of fire, or how close they were to disappear. They would probably find unexplainable ruins, signs of former societies, and maybe even recognize those societies as human. But do you really think they would understand the difference between our banks and churches? I don't believe every toolmaker being is guaranteed to develop space travel - and after the right amount of time even our space dumpster may get cleaner. LF Bob W escreveu: Peter wrote: that one species of dinosaur was. If the same amount of time elapsed between the rise of a new intelligent creature and our demise, as between us and the dinosaurs, I doubt enough would exist of our works to show that we were tool users. In fossils already exist in association with stone tools. Assuming we haven't already dug them all up, if we were to disappear tomorrow I don't see any great reason why many of the fossils still in the ground shouldn't remain there for the next 65 million years. In addition, some of our artefacts are designed to last a long time. For example, the Hoover Dam is supposed to last as long as the rocks amongst which it is built. There's probably as much chance of our traces remaining for 65 million years as there was of the dinosaurs' traces lasting that long. Luiz wrote: There are lots of unexplained artifacts from pre-historic ages that suggest mankind did have a former civilization that vanished in some global catastrophe, leaving scattered groups with tales of destruction I'm late into this conversation, but from the gist of it I think people are referring to non-human civilisations. As far as prehistoric human civilisations go, there are some interesting peer-reviewed (as opposed to barking mad lunatic Graham Hancock types) books around - google Richard Rudgley, for example. He is an archaeologist who shows the transition from prehistoric hunter-gatherers to early agriculturalists. There are also many peoples (it might be a bit a a stretch to describe them as civilisations) who were destroyed by natural disasters, or barely scraped through by the skin of their teeth. By coincidence, I happened to be reading some reviews today of books about the Black Death of the 14th century. This event killed something like 30% of the population of the known world, and was described in one of the reviews as the worst natural disaster ever to strike mankind. However, that is probably not true as the Toba explosion about 74,000 years ago, which was the biggest eruption of the last 2 million years, appears to have come close to making humans extinct, reducing the population to fewer than 10,000 breeding pairs. Stephen Oppenheimer pushes this theory very interestingly in a number of his books, including Out Of Eden. Bob by flood and fire. We usually regard our achievements as important, but if mankind disappeared the next tenants would have little to remember us. -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Luiz Felipe Sent: 18 January 2009 23:08 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion Peter, I saw "Stan" (a T-Rex fossil) at Disney's Animal Kingdom and the folks at the e
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
Peter, your initial argument was that few humans live where fossilisation takes place. I argue that many of our artifacts are deposited in places that do favour fossilisation. And I would say that shipwrecks in particular are prone to fossilisation because of the amount of detritus that rains down on them. Many wrecks will be covered in oxygen free mud long before they have had time to rot or rust, and then will have reasonable probability of reaching the fossil record. From echo sounding in eg. the Black Sea, we know that human artefacts are already preserved that way in the form of drowned settlements. In the Scandinavian countries, there are still untouched bronze-age burial mounds that do contain wooden ships preserved in peat, along with weaponry, jewelry and tools. In Denmark, nearly perfect specimens of stone-age people have been unearthed from marshlands which, incidentally, would also be likely candidates for future fossilisation. In short, I think you're overly pessimistic. The abundance of our species across the face of this planet is so extensive that fossilisation of enough artefacts to make a mark in history is more likely than not. Another matter is that future geologists will find sliver-thin strata in the sediments that are nearly saturated with non-natural chemical contaminants such as dioxins or moderately soluble mercury salts. And if they're lucky they'll stumble upon some very unlikely deposits of highly concentrated plutonium in concrete. That should be a good puzzle for them , but I think you know what I mean. Jostein 2009/1/19 Peter Alling : > In a few million years the pyramids will be weathered to less than hillocks; > iron, even stainless steel, will oxidize to dust; micro-organisms will have > eaten rubber and plastic; glass will have been smoothed to pebbles; little > recognizable as an artifact will remain. For example not too long ago, it > seems that a couple of Ford Truck sparkplugs from the 1920's were initially > misidentified as "geoids". The earth's crust is very active, and the > biosphere even more so. > > > -Original Message- >>From: Bob Sullivan >>Sent: Jan 19, 2009 6:55 AM >>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>Subject: Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion >> >>Jostein, >>Our garbage dumps will be a treasure trove for future records of our >>existance. >>Regards, Bob S. >> >>On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 4:03 AM, AlunFoto wrote: >>> While human bodies stand little chance of fossilising, many of our >>> cultural artefacts do. Structures such as pyramids, concrete, cast >>> iron, shipwrecks in mud, etc, etc. We started out pondering whether a >>> civilisation could have existed before the emergence of humans. I >>> would argue that any such civilisation would have been discovered by >>> fossilised remains of their artefacts. It is of course possible to >>> imagine an intelligent species not building anything to support their >>> existence, but that defies the definition of civilisation, doesn't it. >>> >>> On an eerie sidenote, I suspect human civilisation's largest >>> contribution to a future fossil record will be fossilised garbage... >>> :-( >>> >>> Jostein >>> >>> 2009/1/19 Luiz Felipe : >>>> Peter, I saw "Stan" (a T-Rex fossil) at Disney's Animal Kingdom and the >>>> folks at the exibition told me how few specimens existed. It's a very >>>> difficult puzzle indeed. >>>> >>>> There are lots of unexplained artifacts from pre-historic ages that suggest >>>> mankind did have a former civilization that vanished in some global >>>> catastrophe, leaving scattered groups with tales of destruction by flood >>>> and >>>> fire. We usually regard our achievements as important, but if mankind >>>> disappeared the next tenants would have little to remember us. >>>> >>>> LF >>>> >>>> Peter Alling escreveu: >>>>> >>>>> On a serious note, most people don't realize how little of the fossil >>>>> record actually exists. I think the entire T-Rex species is known from >>>>> fewer than 100 individuals with only a half a dozen considered "nearly >>>>> complete", representing several hundred thousand years of the species' >>>>> existence. The amount of time that hominids an entire group of mammalian >>>>> species have been on earth is less time than the existence of that one >>>>> species of dinosaur was. If the same amount of time elapse
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
In a few million years the pyramids will be weathered to less than hillocks; iron, even stainless steel, will oxidize to dust; micro-organisms will have eaten rubber and plastic; glass will have been smoothed to pebbles; little recognizable as an artifact will remain. For example not too long ago, it seems that a couple of Ford Truck sparkplugs from the 1920's were initially misidentified as "geoids". The earth's crust is very active, and the biosphere even more so. -Original Message- >From: Bob Sullivan >Sent: Jan 19, 2009 6:55 AM >To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >Subject: Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion > >Jostein, >Our garbage dumps will be a treasure trove for future records of our existance. >Regards, Bob S. > >On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 4:03 AM, AlunFoto wrote: >> While human bodies stand little chance of fossilising, many of our >> cultural artefacts do. Structures such as pyramids, concrete, cast >> iron, shipwrecks in mud, etc, etc. We started out pondering whether a >> civilisation could have existed before the emergence of humans. I >> would argue that any such civilisation would have been discovered by >> fossilised remains of their artefacts. It is of course possible to >> imagine an intelligent species not building anything to support their >> existence, but that defies the definition of civilisation, doesn't it. >> >> On an eerie sidenote, I suspect human civilisation's largest >> contribution to a future fossil record will be fossilised garbage... >> :-( >> >> Jostein >> >> 2009/1/19 Luiz Felipe : >>> Peter, I saw "Stan" (a T-Rex fossil) at Disney's Animal Kingdom and the >>> folks at the exibition told me how few specimens existed. It's a very >>> difficult puzzle indeed. >>> >>> There are lots of unexplained artifacts from pre-historic ages that suggest >>> mankind did have a former civilization that vanished in some global >>> catastrophe, leaving scattered groups with tales of destruction by flood and >>> fire. We usually regard our achievements as important, but if mankind >>> disappeared the next tenants would have little to remember us. >>> >>> LF >>> >>> Peter Alling escreveu: >>>> >>>> On a serious note, most people don't realize how little of the fossil >>>> record actually exists. I think the entire T-Rex species is known from >>>> fewer than 100 individuals with only a half a dozen considered "nearly >>>> complete", representing several hundred thousand years of the species' >>>> existence. The amount of time that hominids an entire group of mammalian >>>> species have been on earth is less time than the existence of that one >>>> species of dinosaur was. If the same amount of time elapsed between the >>>> rise of a new intelligent creature and our demise, as between us and the >>>> dinosaurs, I doubt enough would exist of our works to show that we were >>>> tool >>>> users. In fact though there are an awful lot of us, I doubt there would be >>>> many surviving fossils, as most of us live in areas not conducive to fossil >>>> formation. >>>> >>>> -Original Message- >>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: AlunFoto >>>>> Sent: Jan 17, 2009 3:45 PM >>>>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>>> Subject: Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion >>>>> >>>>> 2009/1/17 Peter Alling : >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If birds are related to dinosaurs maybe they did. >>>>>> Not much would be left of our civilization after a few million years. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> True enough. But since there are fossilised remains of early hominids >>>>> like Lucy, then one has to wonder how a previous civilisation of >>>>> another species could have come and gone without as much as a trace in >>>>> the fossil record. >>>>> >>>>> Unless, of course, the fossil record is a hoax planted by the previous >>>>> civilisation. >>>>> >>>>> No, wait! That doesn't hold with the fact that Noah's flood caused all >>>>> the fossils. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jostein >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ >>>>> http://alunfoto.blogspot.com
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
2009/1/19 Bob Sullivan : > Jostein, > Our garbage dumps will be a treasure trove for future records > of our existance. Indeed! Doesn't that make you the slightest bit worried? :-) Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
Jostein, Our garbage dumps will be a treasure trove for future records of our existance. Regards, Bob S. On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 4:03 AM, AlunFoto wrote: > While human bodies stand little chance of fossilising, many of our > cultural artefacts do. Structures such as pyramids, concrete, cast > iron, shipwrecks in mud, etc, etc. We started out pondering whether a > civilisation could have existed before the emergence of humans. I > would argue that any such civilisation would have been discovered by > fossilised remains of their artefacts. It is of course possible to > imagine an intelligent species not building anything to support their > existence, but that defies the definition of civilisation, doesn't it. > > On an eerie sidenote, I suspect human civilisation's largest > contribution to a future fossil record will be fossilised garbage... > :-( > > Jostein > > 2009/1/19 Luiz Felipe : >> Peter, I saw "Stan" (a T-Rex fossil) at Disney's Animal Kingdom and the >> folks at the exibition told me how few specimens existed. It's a very >> difficult puzzle indeed. >> >> There are lots of unexplained artifacts from pre-historic ages that suggest >> mankind did have a former civilization that vanished in some global >> catastrophe, leaving scattered groups with tales of destruction by flood and >> fire. We usually regard our achievements as important, but if mankind >> disappeared the next tenants would have little to remember us. >> >> LF >> >> Peter Alling escreveu: >>> >>> On a serious note, most people don't realize how little of the fossil >>> record actually exists. I think the entire T-Rex species is known from >>> fewer than 100 individuals with only a half a dozen considered "nearly >>> complete", representing several hundred thousand years of the species' >>> existence. The amount of time that hominids an entire group of mammalian >>> species have been on earth is less time than the existence of that one >>> species of dinosaur was. If the same amount of time elapsed between the >>> rise of a new intelligent creature and our demise, as between us and the >>> dinosaurs, I doubt enough would exist of our works to show that we were tool >>> users. In fact though there are an awful lot of us, I doubt there would be >>> many surviving fossils, as most of us live in areas not conducive to fossil >>> formation. >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> >>>> >>>> From: AlunFoto >>>> Sent: Jan 17, 2009 3:45 PM >>>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>> Subject: Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion >>>> >>>> 2009/1/17 Peter Alling : >>>> >>>>> >>>>> If birds are related to dinosaurs maybe they did. >>>>> Not much would be left of our civilization after a few million years. >>>>> >>>> >>>> True enough. But since there are fossilised remains of early hominids >>>> like Lucy, then one has to wonder how a previous civilisation of >>>> another species could have come and gone without as much as a trace in >>>> the fossil record. >>>> >>>> Unless, of course, the fossil record is a hoax planted by the previous >>>> civilisation. >>>> >>>> No, wait! That doesn't hold with the fact that Noah's flood caused all >>>> the fossils. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jostein >>>> >>>> -- >>>> http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ >>>> http://alunfoto.blogspot.com >>>> >>>> -- >>>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>> PDML@pdml.net >>>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >>>> follow the directions. >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> PDML@pdml.net >>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >>> follow the directions. >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Luiz Felipe >> luiz.felipe at techmit.com.br >> http://techmit.com.br/luizfelipe/ >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> > > > > -- > http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ > http://alunfoto.blogspot.com > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
While human bodies stand little chance of fossilising, many of our cultural artefacts do. Structures such as pyramids, concrete, cast iron, shipwrecks in mud, etc, etc. We started out pondering whether a civilisation could have existed before the emergence of humans. I would argue that any such civilisation would have been discovered by fossilised remains of their artefacts. It is of course possible to imagine an intelligent species not building anything to support their existence, but that defies the definition of civilisation, doesn't it. On an eerie sidenote, I suspect human civilisation's largest contribution to a future fossil record will be fossilised garbage... :-( Jostein 2009/1/19 Luiz Felipe : > Peter, I saw "Stan" (a T-Rex fossil) at Disney's Animal Kingdom and the > folks at the exibition told me how few specimens existed. It's a very > difficult puzzle indeed. > > There are lots of unexplained artifacts from pre-historic ages that suggest > mankind did have a former civilization that vanished in some global > catastrophe, leaving scattered groups with tales of destruction by flood and > fire. We usually regard our achievements as important, but if mankind > disappeared the next tenants would have little to remember us. > > LF > > Peter Alling escreveu: >> >> On a serious note, most people don't realize how little of the fossil >> record actually exists. I think the entire T-Rex species is known from >> fewer than 100 individuals with only a half a dozen considered "nearly >> complete", representing several hundred thousand years of the species' >> existence. The amount of time that hominids an entire group of mammalian >> species have been on earth is less time than the existence of that one >> species of dinosaur was. If the same amount of time elapsed between the >> rise of a new intelligent creature and our demise, as between us and the >> dinosaurs, I doubt enough would exist of our works to show that we were tool >> users. In fact though there are an awful lot of us, I doubt there would be >> many surviving fossils, as most of us live in areas not conducive to fossil >> formation. >> >> -Original Message- >> >>> >>> From: AlunFoto >>> Sent: Jan 17, 2009 3:45 PM >>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> Subject: Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion >>> >>> 2009/1/17 Peter Alling : >>> >>>> >>>> If birds are related to dinosaurs maybe they did. >>>> Not much would be left of our civilization after a few million years. >>>> >>> >>> True enough. But since there are fossilised remains of early hominids >>> like Lucy, then one has to wonder how a previous civilisation of >>> another species could have come and gone without as much as a trace in >>> the fossil record. >>> >>> Unless, of course, the fossil record is a hoax planted by the previous >>> civilisation. >>> >>> No, wait! That doesn't hold with the fact that Noah's flood caused all >>> the fossils. >>> >>> >>> Jostein >>> >>> -- >>> http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ >>> http://alunfoto.blogspot.com >>> >>> -- >>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> PDML@pdml.net >>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >>> follow the directions. >>> >> >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> >> >> > > -- > Luiz Felipe > luiz.felipe at techmit.com.br > http://techmit.com.br/luizfelipe/ > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
Peter wrote: > that one species of dinosaur was. If the same amount of time > elapsed between the rise of a new intelligent creature and > our demise, as between us and the dinosaurs, I doubt enough > would exist of our works to show that we were tool users. In fossils already exist in association with stone tools. Assuming we haven't already dug them all up, if we were to disappear tomorrow I don't see any great reason why many of the fossils still in the ground shouldn't remain there for the next 65 million years. In addition, some of our artefacts are designed to last a long time. For example, the Hoover Dam is supposed to last as long as the rocks amongst which it is built. There's probably as much chance of our traces remaining for 65 million years as there was of the dinosaurs' traces lasting that long. Luiz wrote: > There are lots of unexplained artifacts from pre-historic ages that > suggest mankind did have a former civilization that vanished in some > global catastrophe, leaving scattered groups with tales of > destruction I'm late into this conversation, but from the gist of it I think people are referring to non-human civilisations. As far as prehistoric human civilisations go, there are some interesting peer-reviewed (as opposed to barking mad lunatic Graham Hancock types) books around - google Richard Rudgley, for example. He is an archaeologist who shows the transition from prehistoric hunter-gatherers to early agriculturalists. There are also many peoples (it might be a bit a a stretch to describe them as civilisations) who were destroyed by natural disasters, or barely scraped through by the skin of their teeth. By coincidence, I happened to be reading some reviews today of books about the Black Death of the 14th century. This event killed something like 30% of the population of the known world, and was described in one of the reviews as the worst natural disaster ever to strike mankind. However, that is probably not true as the Toba explosion about 74,000 years ago, which was the biggest eruption of the last 2 million years, appears to have come close to making humans extinct, reducing the population to fewer than 10,000 breeding pairs. Stephen Oppenheimer pushes this theory very interestingly in a number of his books, including Out Of Eden. Bob > by flood and fire. > We usually regard our achievements as > important, but > if mankind disappeared the next tenants would have little to > remember us. > -Original Message- > From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On > Behalf Of Luiz Felipe > Sent: 18 January 2009 23:08 > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > Subject: Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion > > Peter, I saw "Stan" (a T-Rex fossil) at Disney's Animal > Kingdom and the > folks at the exibition told me how few specimens existed. It's a very > difficult puzzle indeed. > > There are lots of unexplained artifacts from pre-historic ages that > suggest mankind did have a former civilization that vanished in some > global catastrophe, leaving scattered groups with tales of > destruction > by flood and fire. We usually regard our achievements as > important, but > if mankind disappeared the next tenants would have little to > remember us. > > LF > > Peter Alling escreveu: > > On a serious note, most people don't realize how little of > the fossil record actually exists. I think the entire T-Rex > species is known from fewer than 100 individuals with only a > half a dozen considered "nearly complete", representing > several hundred thousand years of the species' existence. > The amount of time that hominids an entire group of mammalian > species have been on earth is less time than the existence of > that one species of dinosaur was. If the same amount of time > elapsed between the rise of a new intelligent creature and > our demise, as between us and the dinosaurs, I doubt enough > would exist of our works to show that we were tool users. In > fact though there are an awful lot of us, I doubt there would > be many surviving fossils, as most of us live in areas not > conducive to fossil formation. > > > > -Original Message- > > > >> From: AlunFoto > >> Sent: Jan 17, 2009 3:45 PM > >> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > >> Subject: Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion > >> > >> 2009/1/17 Peter Alling : > >> > >>> If birds are related to dinosaurs maybe they did. > >>> Not much would be left of our civilization after a few > million years. > >>> > >> True enough. But since there are fossilised remains of > early hominids > >> like
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
Peter, I saw "Stan" (a T-Rex fossil) at Disney's Animal Kingdom and the folks at the exibition told me how few specimens existed. It's a very difficult puzzle indeed. There are lots of unexplained artifacts from pre-historic ages that suggest mankind did have a former civilization that vanished in some global catastrophe, leaving scattered groups with tales of destruction by flood and fire. We usually regard our achievements as important, but if mankind disappeared the next tenants would have little to remember us. LF Peter Alling escreveu: On a serious note, most people don't realize how little of the fossil record actually exists. I think the entire T-Rex species is known from fewer than 100 individuals with only a half a dozen considered "nearly complete", representing several hundred thousand years of the species' existence. The amount of time that hominids an entire group of mammalian species have been on earth is less time than the existence of that one species of dinosaur was. If the same amount of time elapsed between the rise of a new intelligent creature and our demise, as between us and the dinosaurs, I doubt enough would exist of our works to show that we were tool users. In fact though there are an awful lot of us, I doubt there would be many surviving fossils, as most of us live in areas not conducive to fossil formation. -Original Message- From: AlunFoto Sent: Jan 17, 2009 3:45 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion 2009/1/17 Peter Alling : If birds are related to dinosaurs maybe they did. Not much would be left of our civilization after a few million years. True enough. But since there are fossilised remains of early hominids like Lucy, then one has to wonder how a previous civilisation of another species could have come and gone without as much as a trace in the fossil record. Unless, of course, the fossil record is a hoax planted by the previous civilisation. No, wait! That doesn't hold with the fact that Noah's flood caused all the fossils. Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Luiz Felipe luiz.felipe at techmit.com.br http://techmit.com.br/luizfelipe/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
On a serious note, most people don't realize how little of the fossil record actually exists. I think the entire T-Rex species is known from fewer than 100 individuals with only a half a dozen considered "nearly complete", representing several hundred thousand years of the species' existence. The amount of time that hominids an entire group of mammalian species have been on earth is less time than the existence of that one species of dinosaur was. If the same amount of time elapsed between the rise of a new intelligent creature and our demise, as between us and the dinosaurs, I doubt enough would exist of our works to show that we were tool users. In fact though there are an awful lot of us, I doubt there would be many surviving fossils, as most of us live in areas not conducive to fossil formation. -Original Message- >From: AlunFoto >Sent: Jan 17, 2009 3:45 PM >To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >Subject: Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion > >2009/1/17 Peter Alling : >> If birds are related to dinosaurs maybe they did. >> Not much would be left of our civilization after a few million years. > >True enough. But since there are fossilised remains of early hominids >like Lucy, then one has to wonder how a previous civilisation of >another species could have come and gone without as much as a trace in >the fossil record. > >Unless, of course, the fossil record is a hoax planted by the previous >civilisation. > >No, wait! That doesn't hold with the fact that Noah's flood caused all >the fossils. > > >Jostein > >-- >http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ >http://alunfoto.blogspot.com > >-- >PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >PDML@pdml.net >http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow >the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
2009/1/17 Peter Alling : > If birds are related to dinosaurs maybe they did. > Not much would be left of our civilization after a few million years. True enough. But since there are fossilised remains of early hominids like Lucy, then one has to wonder how a previous civilisation of another species could have come and gone without as much as a trace in the fossil record. Unless, of course, the fossil record is a hoax planted by the previous civilisation. No, wait! That doesn't hold with the fact that Noah's flood caused all the fossils. Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
If birds are related to dinosaurs maybe they did. Not much would be left of our civilization after a few million years. -Original Message- >From: AlunFoto >Sent: Jan 17, 2009 3:11 PM >To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >Subject: Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion > >Peter, >All birds are dumb. If they weren't they would have evolved >civilisation long before the mammals. :-) > >Cheers, >Jostein >The newbie bird guy. > >2009/1/15 Peter Alling : >> Is that "dumb bird" guy, or dumb "bird guy", it's important to know... >> >> -Original Message- >>>From: Christian >>>Sent: Jan 13, 2009 9:34 PM >>>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>Subject: Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion >>> >>>AlunFoto wrote: >>>> Hi gang, >>>> >>>> One time has to be the first, right? >>>> http://turl.no/2ro >>>> >>>> How can I do this better? - Apart from that silly mat and frame with >>>> the writing on, of course. Please ignore that... >>>> >>>> Jostein >>>> >>> >>>I've read the other replies, but I'm gonna say that the subject of >>>"Rainy coast" works with this rendition. I liked it immediately and >>>then thought "I must be stupid or something because everyone else >>>thought it was too muddy or converted incorrectly or whatever." Well >>>for me the atmosphere oozes, rainy, nasty, weather so it totally worked. >>> What the f*** so I know? I'm just the dumb bird guy. >>> >>>Christian >>> >>>-- >>>PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>PDML@pdml.net >>>http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>>to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >>>follow the directions. >> >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> > > > >-- >http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ >http://alunfoto.blogspot.com > >-- >PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >PDML@pdml.net >http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow >the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
2009/1/14 Christian : > I've read the other replies, but I'm gonna say that the subject of "Rainy > coast" works with this rendition. I liked it immediately and then thought > "I must be stupid or something because everyone else thought it was too > muddy or converted incorrectly or whatever." Well for me the atmosphere > oozes, rainy, nasty, weather so it totally worked. What the f*** so I know? > I'm just the dumb bird guy. Thanks Christian! Makes me think I must have been somewhere along the right track. Ï'm just back to my good old calibrated screen, and I think I understand what the others are talking about. The lower midtones do look muddy here. However, that is not a result of pulling down the midtones, but rather lifting the shadows a bit too much. There should be even more tones down in the deep if I am to achieve what I'm after. I will see about doing a new version of this, and hope you all will have the patience to comment on the difference. Best, Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
Peter, All birds are dumb. If they weren't they would have evolved civilisation long before the mammals. :-) Cheers, Jostein The newbie bird guy. 2009/1/15 Peter Alling : > Is that "dumb bird" guy, or dumb "bird guy", it's important to know... > > -Original Message- >>From: Christian >>Sent: Jan 13, 2009 9:34 PM >>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>Subject: Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion >> >>AlunFoto wrote: >>> Hi gang, >>> >>> One time has to be the first, right? >>> http://turl.no/2ro >>> >>> How can I do this better? - Apart from that silly mat and frame with >>> the writing on, of course. Please ignore that... >>> >>> Jostein >>> >> >>I've read the other replies, but I'm gonna say that the subject of >>"Rainy coast" works with this rendition. I liked it immediately and >>then thought "I must be stupid or something because everyone else >>thought it was too muddy or converted incorrectly or whatever." Well >>for me the atmosphere oozes, rainy, nasty, weather so it totally worked. >> What the f*** so I know? I'm just the dumb bird guy. >> >>Christian >> >>-- >>PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>PDML@pdml.net >>http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow >>the directions. > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
Is that "dumb bird" guy, or dumb "bird guy", it's important to know... -Original Message- >From: Christian >Sent: Jan 13, 2009 9:34 PM >To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >Subject: Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion > >AlunFoto wrote: >> Hi gang, >> >> One time has to be the first, right? >> http://turl.no/2ro >> >> How can I do this better? - Apart from that silly mat and frame with >> the writing on, of course. Please ignore that... >> >> Jostein >> > >I've read the other replies, but I'm gonna say that the subject of >"Rainy coast" works with this rendition. I liked it immediately and >then thought "I must be stupid or something because everyone else >thought it was too muddy or converted incorrectly or whatever." Well >for me the atmosphere oozes, rainy, nasty, weather so it totally worked. > What the f*** so I know? I'm just the dumb bird guy. > >Christian > >-- >PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >PDML@pdml.net >http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow >the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 12:05 PM, AlunFoto wrote: > Thanks everyone for the input! Much appreciated. I never offered a suggestion, for obvious reason.:-) Dave -- Equine Photography www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ Ontario Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
2009/1/14 Mark Roberts : > David Savage wrote: >> >> 2009/1/14 Mark Roberts : >>> >>> Christian wrote: AlunFoto wrote: > > Hi gang, > > One time has to be the first, right? > http://turl.no/2ro > > How can I do this better? - Apart from that silly mat and frame with > the writing on, of course. Please ignore that... I've read the other replies, but I'm gonna say that the subject of "Rainy coast" works with this rendition. I liked it immediately and then thought "I must be stupid or something because everyone else thought it was too muddy or converted incorrectly or whatever." Well for me the atmosphere oozes, rainy, nasty, weather so it totally worked. What the f*** so I know? I'm just the dumb bird guy. >>> >>> No, no, Christian. You agreed with me, which makes you insightful and >>> intelligent by definition ;-) >> >> Fools never differ. > > I agree completely! D'oh :-) Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
Mark Roberts wrote: No, no, Christian. You agreed with me, which makes you insightful and intelligent by definition ;-) If not slightly insane... or at least a little bit inebriated. -- Christian http://404mohawknotfound.blogspot.com/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
David Savage wrote: 2009/1/14 Mark Roberts : Christian wrote: AlunFoto wrote: Hi gang, One time has to be the first, right? http://turl.no/2ro How can I do this better? - Apart from that silly mat and frame with the writing on, of course. Please ignore that... I've read the other replies, but I'm gonna say that the subject of "Rainy coast" works with this rendition. I liked it immediately and then thought "I must be stupid or something because everyone else thought it was too muddy or converted incorrectly or whatever." Well for me the atmosphere oozes, rainy, nasty, weather so it totally worked. What the f*** so I know? I'm just the dumb bird guy. No, no, Christian. You agreed with me, which makes you insightful and intelligent by definition ;-) Fools never differ. I agree completely! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
2009/1/14 Mark Roberts : > Christian wrote: >> >> AlunFoto wrote: >>> >>> Hi gang, >>> >>> One time has to be the first, right? >>> http://turl.no/2ro >>> >>> How can I do this better? - Apart from that silly mat and frame with >>> the writing on, of course. Please ignore that... >> >> I've read the other replies, but I'm gonna say that the subject of "Rainy >> coast" works with this rendition. I liked it immediately and then thought >> "I must be stupid or something because everyone else thought it was too >> muddy or converted incorrectly or whatever." Well for me the atmosphere >> oozes, rainy, nasty, weather so it totally worked. What the f*** so I know? >> I'm just the dumb bird guy. > > No, no, Christian. You agreed with me, which makes you insightful and > intelligent by definition ;-) Fools never differ. :-) DS -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
Christian wrote: AlunFoto wrote: Hi gang, One time has to be the first, right? http://turl.no/2ro How can I do this better? - Apart from that silly mat and frame with the writing on, of course. Please ignore that... I've read the other replies, but I'm gonna say that the subject of "Rainy coast" works with this rendition. I liked it immediately and then thought "I must be stupid or something because everyone else thought it was too muddy or converted incorrectly or whatever." Well for me the atmosphere oozes, rainy, nasty, weather so it totally worked. What the f*** so I know? I'm just the dumb bird guy. No, no, Christian. You agreed with me, which makes you insightful and intelligent by definition ;-) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
AlunFoto wrote: Hi gang, One time has to be the first, right? http://turl.no/2ro How can I do this better? - Apart from that silly mat and frame with the writing on, of course. Please ignore that... Jostein I've read the other replies, but I'm gonna say that the subject of "Rainy coast" works with this rendition. I liked it immediately and then thought "I must be stupid or something because everyone else thought it was too muddy or converted incorrectly or whatever." Well for me the atmosphere oozes, rainy, nasty, weather so it totally worked. What the f*** so I know? I'm just the dumb bird guy. Christian -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
Thanks everyone for the input! Much appreciated. I will look at this again when back in Oslo with access to a proper screen and PS CS3. On this laptop screen the midtones doesn't really look very muddy, but I suspect the gamut is rather narrow. Mark guessed right about the intent of the shot. I wanted this to be a real low-key shot because there was a truly leaden sky in the last half-hour of usable light yesterday afternoon. A respectable winter storm was just about to hit land. He also observed that I had whitened the surf, and that I had overdone it. I suspect I will agree when I see it on a different screen. :-) Ann: there wasn't much colour around in the first place. I liked the b&w better than the blueish tint in the colour version. Thanks again Jostein 2009/1/12 AlunFoto : > Hi gang, > > One time has to be the first, right? > http://turl.no/2ro > > How can I do this better? - Apart from that silly mat and frame with > the writing on, of course. Please ignore that... > > Jostein > > -- > http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ > http://alunfoto.blogspot.com > -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
Thanks Christina, Tim and Bob W. Lightroom is not part of my arsenal i'm afraid. This week I'm reduced to PS elements 6; working from a small laptop. Jostein 2009/1/13 Christine Aguila : > I agree with Tim & Bob W. If you have Lightroom, try that. The BW dropper > is great to use & creating virtual copies of the pic and trying different > renderings is so easy & makes it fun to experiment. Cheers, Christine > > > > > > - Original Message - From: "AlunFoto" > To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" > Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 11:34 AM > Subject: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion > > >> Hi gang, >> >> One time has to be the first, right? >> http://turl.no/2ro >> >> How can I do this better? - Apart from that silly mat and frame with >> the writing on, of course. Please ignore that... >> >> Jostein >> >> -- >> http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ >> http://alunfoto.blogspot.com >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
I agree with Tim & Bob W. If you have Lightroom, try that. The BW dropper is great to use & creating virtual copies of the pic and trying different renderings is so easy & makes it fun to experiment. Cheers, Christine - Original Message - From: "AlunFoto" To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 11:34 AM Subject: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion Hi gang, One time has to be the first, right? http://turl.no/2ro How can I do this better? - Apart from that silly mat and frame with the writing on, of course. Please ignore that... Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
AlunFoto wrote: Hi gang, One time has to be the first, right? http://turl.no/2ro How can I do this better? - Apart from that silly mat and frame with the writing on, of course. Please ignore that... I'm going to go against the masses and say that I rather like the effect of the conversion. It's not the typical "get in every zone from 0 to X" approach but it's a valid interpretation of the scene if it's the look you're after. If it *is* the look you're after, I might say that the white surf around the rocks looks a little *too* bright, as if it's been dodged a little excessively. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
Jostein - what are you using for the conversion? I go back and forth in Elements 5 between desaturating and converting - sometimes one or the other works better. I like the mood but think I'd like to see a tad more contrast.. or possibly and overall brightening - again, not very much. Would like to see the color version, too Not sure I'm of any help here - it is a stunner even if you don't change it -- I'm just nitting a bit ann AlunFoto wrote: Hi gang, One time has to be the first, right? http://turl.no/2ro How can I do this better? - Apart from that silly mat and frame with the writing on, of course. Please ignore that... Jostein -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
use Lightroom. The midtones are too muddy. With LR it's a doddle. > > Hi gang, > > One time has to be the first, right? > http://turl.no/2ro > > How can I do this better? - Apart from that silly mat and frame with > the writing on, of course. Please ignore that... > > Jostein -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
I should probably also urge you to play with the sliders at the right Tab Panel. The point with trying the Presets is that they will provide you with different starting points for later experiments. Use them as is, or as a bank full of sketches and ideas. -- MaritimTim 2009/1/12 Tim Øsleby : > I think there's room for improvement in that one yes. > > Steady's advice is good. > Another idea is to try Lightroom, presuming you have access to it. > > Try the different Presets. Most of them are pretty good. If you are > lucky, one of them will give you what you are after. > But that's not my point. Go further in your search for knowledge. > Study the difference in the results from the differnt Presets. Also > have a closer inspection on the sliders at the right tab panel. The > sliders will tell you what is going on under the hood. Have special > attention to the Grayscalemix sliders. All this will give you a good > idea on how to think when converting a picture. This basic > understanding will bring you further. > > I think this knowledge will be usefull, even if you prefer to use the > PS Channel Mixer. > > -- > MaritimTim > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
Paul Stenquist wrote: If you have a later version of PhotoShop, you'll also find a "Black and White" choice under Image/Adjustment. This functions in a similar way to the channel mixer but allows conversion of six colors, each independent of the other. It also provides filters that can be applied to achieve results similar to those of BW film shot through filters. I know it's in CS4, not sure about CS3. It is there in CS3; I use it and really like it. It works similarly to the b&w mixer in ACR. -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
I think there's room for improvement in that one yes. Steady's advice is good. Another idea is to try Lightroom, presuming you have access to it. Try the different Presets. Most of them are pretty good. If you are lucky, one of them will give you what you are after. But that's not my point. Go further in your search for knowledge. Study the difference in the results from the differnt Presets. Also have a closer inspection on the sliders at the right tab panel. The sliders will tell you what is going on under the hood. Have special attention to the Grayscalemix sliders. All this will give you a good idea on how to think when converting a picture. This basic understanding will bring you further. I think this knowledge will be usefull, even if you prefer to use the PS Channel Mixer. -- MaritimTim 2009/1/12 AlunFoto : > Hi gang, > > One time has to be the first, right? > http://turl.no/2ro > > How can I do this better? - Apart from that silly mat and frame with > the writing on, of course. Please ignore that... > > Jostein > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
That should have read "Start with 80% red, 10% blue and 10% green with the monochrome box checked. If you have a later version of PhotoShop, you'll also find a "Black and White" choice under Image/Adjustment. This functions in a similar way to the channel mixer but allows conversion of six colors, each independent of the other. It also provides filters that can be applied to achieve results similar to those of BW film shot through filters. I know it's in CS4, not sure about CS3. Paul On Jan 12, 2009, at 1:15 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote: I think it's too muddy, even for a rainy day. I don't know how you did the conversion, but I'd recommend using the channel mixer in PhotoShop and work on your blue, green and red values until you get midrange tones and contrast that you like. Start with 80% red, 10% blue and 10% green with the monotone box checked. Then work each slider back and forth until you find a happy answer. If you have a later version of PhotoShop, you'll also find a "Black and White" choice under Image/Adjustment. This functions in a similar way to the channel mixer but allows conversion of six colors, each independent of the other. It also provides filters that can be applied to achieve results similar to those of BW film shot through filters. I know it's in CS4, not sure about CS3. Paul Paul On Jan 12, 2009, at 12:34 PM, AlunFoto wrote: Hi gang, One time has to be the first, right? http://turl.no/2ro How can I do this better? - Apart from that silly mat and frame with the writing on, of course. Please ignore that... Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
I think it's too muddy, even for a rainy day. I don't know how you did the conversion, but I'd recommend using the channel mixer in PhotoShop and work on your blue, green and red values until you get midrange tones and contrast that you like. Start with 80% red, 10% blue and 10% green with the monotone box checked. Then work each slider back and forth until you find a happy answer. Paul On Jan 12, 2009, at 12:34 PM, AlunFoto wrote: Hi gang, One time has to be the first, right? http://turl.no/2ro How can I do this better? - Apart from that silly mat and frame with the writing on, of course. Please ignore that... Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
PESO - attempt at B/W conversion
Hi gang, One time has to be the first, right? http://turl.no/2ro How can I do this better? - Apart from that silly mat and frame with the writing on, of course. Please ignore that... Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
