Re: Printer reccomendations
On 4/7/19, Godfrey DiGiorgi, discombobulated, unleashed: >I'm just a red-blooded American boy inspired by the holiday ... > https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48198139996_49a73d07a7_o.jpg > >Mmm ... NQSFW, perhaps. ]:-) THANKS I NEEDED THAT!!! -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__UK Shoot / Edit and || (O) |Live Broadcast News -- _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
You could have at least Photoshopped your own head into that image...;-) -p On 7/4/2019 12:33 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: I'm just a red-blooded American boy inspired by the holiday ... https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48198139996_49a73d07a7_o.jpg Mmm ... NQSFW, perhaps. ]:-) Happy Fourth of July, all'y'all Americans! Everyone else have a happy day too! G On Jul 4, 2019, at 10:26 AM, Steve Cottrell wrote: On 4/7/19, Godfrey DiGiorgi, discombobulated, unleashed: I see we're now entering the generalized, universal, mostly inaccurate/ inappropriate grouching stage Mark! Godders on a roll today ;-) -- Paul Sorenson Studio1941 Sooner or later "different" scares people. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 11:03:06PM +0200, Ralf R Radermacher wrote: > Am 03.07.19 um 22:50 schrieb P. J. Alling: > > > Kodak didn't care about > > making cameras really, they sold film which every camera needed, one of > > their engineers was once said to have remarked that the packaging of a > > 35mm film cartridge cost more than the film inside. > > If these cameras had been made by Epson they would have wasted half a > dozen frames each time you changed the lens. > > Ralf Well, 35mm cartridges *did* waste several frames every time you loaded new film (which is a closer analogy to changing an ink cartridge). You had one or two frames worth of film as leader to connect to the take-up spool, the two frames you had to advance once you'd closed the back of the camera, and that extra bit of film after the last full frame you could expose. That's something like 10% or more of overhead even on a 36-shot roll of film. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
I'm just a red-blooded American boy inspired by the holiday ... https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48198139996_49a73d07a7_o.jpg Mmm ... NQSFW, perhaps. ]:-) Happy Fourth of July, all'y'all Americans! Everyone else have a happy day too! G > On Jul 4, 2019, at 10:26 AM, Steve Cottrell wrote: > > On 4/7/19, Godfrey DiGiorgi, discombobulated, unleashed: > >> I see we're now entering the generalized, universal, mostly inaccurate/ >> inappropriate grouching stage > > Mark! > > Godders on a roll today ;-) > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
On 4/7/19, Godfrey DiGiorgi, discombobulated, unleashed: >I see we're now entering the generalized, universal, mostly inaccurate/ >inappropriate grouching stage Mark! Godders on a roll today ;-) -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__UK Shoot / Edit and || (O) |Live Broadcast News -- _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
Ah, I see we're now entering the generalized, universal, mostly inaccurate/inappropriate grouching stage of the conversation. G > On Jul 4, 2019, at 7:15 AM, Igor PDML-StR wrote: > Bravo! > >> Ralf R Radermacher Wed, 03 Jul 2019 14:04:10 -0700 wrote: >> >>>Kodak didn't care about >>>making cameras really, they sold film which every camera needed, one of >>>their engineers was once said to have remarked that the packaging of a >>>35mm film cartridge cost more than the film inside. >>> >> >> If these cameras had been made by Epson they would have wasted half a >> dozen frames each time you changed the lens. >> >> Ralf -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
Bravo! Ralf R Radermacher Wed, 03 Jul 2019 14:04:10 -0700 wrote: Am 03.07.19 um 22:50 schrieb P. J. Alling: Kodak didn't care about making cameras really, they sold film which every camera needed, one of their engineers was once said to have remarked that the packaging of a 35mm film cartridge cost more than the film inside. If these cameras had been made by Epson they would have wasted half a dozen frames each time you changed the lens. Ralf -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
Am 03.07.19 um 22:50 schrieb P. J. Alling: Kodak didn't care about making cameras really, they sold film which every camera needed, one of their engineers was once said to have remarked that the packaging of a 35mm film cartridge cost more than the film inside. If these cameras had been made by Epson they would have wasted half a dozen frames each time you changed the lens. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
I think they effectively do give them away. Printer company's follow the Gillette company's or Kodak's old film marketing plan. Gillette gave away a moderately expensive razor and made their money selling the refill blades for more than they were worth, Kodak didn't care about making cameras really, they sold film which every camera needed, one of their engineers was once said to have remarked that the packaging of a 35mm film cartridge cost more than the film inside. Sadly in their death throws Kodak tried to sell printers for what they cost plus a reasonable profit margin and ink for what it cost to make plus a reasonable profit margin. They apparently failed miserably at that, people were more willing to buy the almost free printer from the other manufactures and pay through the nose for inks. On 7/3/2019 4:23 AM, Ralf R Radermacher wrote: Am 03.07.19 um 04:56 schrieb P. J. Alling: It may not be an engineer's fault. To me, the trouble appears to be that too many technical design decisions are nowadays made in marketing or controlling departments. I still insist that if ever there is a feature in which those Epson printers have really been optimised its their ink consumption. They could give them away for free and still make a profit. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- America wasn't founded so that we could all be better. America was founded so we could all be anything we damn well please. - P.J. O'Rourke -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
Related to that is a very old joke, but a good one: A college physics professor was explaining a particularly complicated concept to his class when a pre-med student interrupted him. "Why do we have to learn this stuff?" The young man blurted out. "Physics saves lives," the professor responded before continuing the lecture. A few minutes later the student interrupted again: "So how does physics save lives?" The professor stared at the student for a moment. "Physics saves lives," he said, "because it keeps the idiots out of medical school." Postmaster Tue, 02 Jul 2019 14:11:36 -0700 wrote: Igor PDML-StR wrote: "C-grade students also get a job." Q: What do you call the guy who graduates medical school at the bottom of his class? A: Doctor. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
Am 03.07.19 um 04:56 schrieb P. J. Alling: It may not be an engineer's fault. To me, the trouble appears to be that too many technical design decisions are nowadays made in marketing or controlling departments. I still insist that if ever there is a feature in which those Epson printers have really been optimised its their ink consumption. They could give them away for free and still make a profit. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
Only if he passes the state exam. On 7/2/2019 5:10 PM, Postmaster wrote: Igor PDML-StR wrote: "C-grade students also get a job." Q: What do you call the guy who graduates medical school at the bottom of his class? A: Doctor. -- America wasn't founded so that we could all be better. America was founded so we could all be anything we damn well please. - P.J. O'Rourke -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
It may not be an engineer's fault. I was once given an assignment to create a utility to display some stored information. The specified query could have returned, in fact was likely to return, multiple hundreds of "pages" of information that the user would then have to page through to find the item they were looking for. After finishing writing the code, I tested it and went off to find my superior, (and I use that term lightly), explained that after one use no one was likely to ever use this function again, and why. He agreed with me, but didn't have the authority to allow me to make a change, not a simple change, but not more than a couple of hours work, which was already in the schedule for this module, I had finished way early. So we set off on the yellow brick road, to find the wizard who could grant permission. After literally several hours, of being shunted from one minor bureaucrat to the next, we finally were before the managing partner for the project, where we made our case. His response, you may ask? The module is done to specification, and we're giving the client that capability for free anyway, so don't worry about it, it's done. It literally took more time to get to the only authority who could authorize the change than it would have taken to modify the specification, rewrite the pseudo code, which was the basis for the actual code, write a new SQL query that allowed for narrowing the scope of the search, and the new code, redesign and rewrite the user interface, then test it and ship the whole thing off to QA, only to have it denied. I learned valuable lessons from that project, including how to write a CYA memo, they were a necessity. On 7/2/2019 3:45 PM, Igor PDML-StR wrote: Godfrey, thanks a lot for posting this quotation from the manual. From that, I would agree with your conjecture of what Epson did. The last "Why" question was rather rhetorical. I understand that you weren't the engineer who designed this printer. But I disagree with the sentiment that we cannot criticize engineers for what they've done. Every so often I see things that are done awkwardly (often for saving some money, while creating huge inconvenience or waste, sometimes because of lack of proper thinking). When I encounter such things, I am always trying to find at least *some* rational for what they've done (even if I would disagree with it). Often, it is hard to imagine anything even remotely sane. For those cases, I've found the mantra that helps me to keep my own sanity: "C-grade students also get a job." (The origin of this phrase might become more clear from the following background fact: I've taught many (several hundreds) students with various engineering majors, and some of those felt they were entitled for a good grade just because they attended the class, even though they didn't put enough effort in it, if at all.) Here is one example of a rather drastic engineering "oops": The stairwell case in a family-oriented, reasonably spacious recently built apartment complex was just a bit too narrow for a queen-size spring box (for the bed) to pass at the turn/corner (straight, diagonally, vertically, - we've tried all), so that the only way to get it to the 2nd and 3rd floor was to lift it with ropes from the balcony. Cheers, Igor PS. And the numbers quoted by Paul are huge! 3 ml, or even 1 ml?! Switching some 12-15 times would consume the entire cartridge. If true, that's a robbery! Godfrey DiGiorgi Mon, 01 Jul 2019 18:40:40 -0700 wrote: You ask questions for which I can only conjecture, and I don't do that. I can only say for sure what the manual says. "EPSON P600 User Manual - page 137 Switching the Black Ink Type Switching the black ink type takes several minutes and consumes some ink in the process. Check the black ink type media list to select the correct type for the media you loaded. 1. Press the home button. 2. Press the black ink change button. 3. Select Proceed and select one of these types of black ink to switch to: • Photo Black to Matte Black—switching takes about 1.5 minutes • Matte Black to Photo Black—switching takes about 3.5 minutes" I would imagine that the two Black inks use the same feed lines in the head from this, and likely because of the added cost of doing independent feed lines (and whatever other complications that it might entail). But that's as far as I am willing to conjecture. I don't design this stuff, I use it. Far be it from me to tell the engineers how to do their job. I turned off autoswitching because I only rarely print on papers that don't take Matte Black ink and found that if I chose the wrong paper type at first then later changed to the correct paper type, the printer needlessly cycled back and forth wasting a lot of time and a bit of ink. G On Mon, 1 Jul 2019, Igor PDML-StR wrote: Godfrey, That information that the printer has an ink-changing cycle is interesting.
Re: Printer reccomendations
Larry Colen wrote: > >> On Jul 2, 2019, at 6:09 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: >> >> I didn't mean to say that we cannot criticize designs and wonder why they >> were >made the way they were. I said I don't pretend to tell engineers how to do >what >they do. Engineers generally have good reasons why they do the things they do >that >are not obvious to us on the outside and cannot be we don't have enough >information to judge the engineers' decisions. > >It has been my experience after several decades of engineering that the reason >for >an awful lot of WTF engineering decisions boil down to someone with pointy >hair >insisting that things be done that way. Absolutely. Jesus, I'm glad I got out of that business. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
> On Jul 2, 2019, at 6:09 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: > > I didn't mean to say that we cannot criticize designs and wonder why they > were made the way they were. I said I don't pretend to tell engineers how to > do what they do. Engineers generally have good reasons why they do the things > they do that are not obvious to us on the outside and cannot be … we don't > have enough information to judge the engineers' decisions. It has been my experience after several decades of engineering that the reason for an awful lot of WTF engineering decisions boil down to someone with pointy hair insisting that things be done that way. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
I didn't mean to say that we cannot criticize designs and wonder why they were made the way they were. I said I don't pretend to tell engineers how to do what they do. Engineers generally have good reasons why they do the things they do that are not obvious to us on the outside and cannot be … we don't have enough information to judge the engineers' decisions. When something doesn't work, it's fine to criticize it. It's not sensible to obsess over perceived flaws in a design and spend all your energy crabbing about it, however, because the only person losing out by doing that too much is the person doing it. In my many years in high tech, the most consistent reasons why something didn't work the way I thought it ought to boiled down to the cost and time to do it better while still making deadlines and turning a profit. The second most consistent reasons were that I tend to use some things in ways that no marketing or functional requirements were ever written to consider. I can't be there to assist all engineering groups of all products that I use be sure that the marketing and functional requirements meet all my needs and uses. So it comes down to looking at what has been produced, for the most part, and figuring out how to get what I want out of it, despite whatever design issues it might have, and accepting some things as the "cost of doing business." I feel quite comfortable that I've done my bit in the (small) sphere of things that I actually had some influence on to make sure that they worked as they ought to. :-) Regards the notes on the Red River Paper site about ink usage in the switch over process, it's unclear whether that is the amount of black ink consumed in the process or whether that is the 'total' amount of ink used, since all ink cartridges do get some exercise in switchover and activation processes in my experience. If it's the total amount of ink used, 3ml distributed across eight 25 ml cartridges is about a 1.5% ink consumption hit for purging lines and optimizing printing. If it's what is lost solely from the black ink, it's a 12% hit, which seems quite a lot: that high a consumption isn't reflected in the ink status of the black ink cartridges before and after a switchover event on my printer, and I haven't seen anything to indicate otherwise that I had reduced the total number of prints I could make by that gross a number. Regardless, it is best to minimize black ink switchover to save ink. I print almost exclusively on matte surface papers, so I only switch over to Photo Black ink when I decide a particular set of prints will work better on the Epson Exhibition Fiber paper (a beautiful, deep semigloss paper) and bunch all my printing for that paper type up so that I switch over just twice—once to Photo Black and then back to Matte Black. I do this very rarely, it hasn't proven to be a major cost. The R2000 printer the article talks about is simply inappropriate for my needs since I print about 80% B and the R2000 is optimized for glossy surface printing; it lacks the full B inkset and the ABW control capabilities. The fact that there's a cost involved in switching inks in the P600 is mostly lost in the noise since with the bigger tanks and the practices of most photographers, switching blacks is something done relatively rarely: Most sophisticated photographers I know settle on two or three papers for the vast majority of their prints and learn how to get the most out of printing to those papers rather than changing papers all the time. Of course, it's in their best interest to pick papers that all use the same black ink type... :-) G > On Jul 2, 2019, at 12:45 PM, Igor PDML-StR wrote: > > > Godfrey, thanks a lot for posting this quotation from the manual. > From that, I would agree with your conjecture of what Epson did. > > The last "Why" question was rather rhetorical. I understand that you > weren't the engineer who designed this printer. > > But I disagree with the sentiment that we cannot criticize engineers for what > they've done. … -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
Igor PDML-StR wrote: >"C-grade students also get a job." Q: What do you call the guy who graduates medical school at the bottom of his class? A: Doctor. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
Godfrey, thanks a lot for posting this quotation from the manual. From that, I would agree with your conjecture of what Epson did. The last "Why" question was rather rhetorical. I understand that you weren't the engineer who designed this printer. But I disagree with the sentiment that we cannot criticize engineers for what they've done. Every so often I see things that are done awkwardly (often for saving some money, while creating huge inconvenience or waste, sometimes because of lack of proper thinking). When I encounter such things, I am always trying to find at least *some* rational for what they've done (even if I would disagree with it). Often, it is hard to imagine anything even remotely sane. For those cases, I've found the mantra that helps me to keep my own sanity: "C-grade students also get a job." (The origin of this phrase might become more clear from the following background fact: I've taught many (several hundreds) students with various engineering majors, and some of those felt they were entitled for a good grade just because they attended the class, even though they didn't put enough effort in it, if at all.) Here is one example of a rather drastic engineering "oops": The stairwell case in a family-oriented, reasonably spacious recently built apartment complex was just a bit too narrow for a queen-size spring box (for the bed) to pass at the turn/corner (straight, diagonally, vertically, - we've tried all), so that the only way to get it to the 2nd and 3rd floor was to lift it with ropes from the balcony. Cheers, Igor PS. And the numbers quoted by Paul are huge! 3 ml, or even 1 ml?! Switching some 12-15 times would consume the entire cartridge. If true, that's a robbery! Godfrey DiGiorgi Mon, 01 Jul 2019 18:40:40 -0700 wrote: You ask questions for which I can only conjecture, and I don't do that. I can only say for sure what the manual says. "EPSON P600 User Manual - page 137 Switching the Black Ink Type Switching the black ink type takes several minutes and consumes some ink in the process. Check the black ink type media list to select the correct type for the media you loaded. 1. Press the home button. 2. Press the black ink change button. 3. Select Proceed and select one of these types of black ink to switch to: • Photo Black to Matte Black—switching takes about 1.5 minutes • Matte Black to Photo Black—switching takes about 3.5 minutes" I would imagine that the two Black inks use the same feed lines in the head from this, and likely because of the added cost of doing independent feed lines (and whatever other complications that it might entail). But that's as far as I am willing to conjecture. I don't design this stuff, I use it. Far be it from me to tell the engineers how to do their job. I turned off autoswitching because I only rarely print on papers that don't take Matte Black ink and found that if I chose the wrong paper type at first then later changed to the correct paper type, the printer needlessly cycled back and forth wasting a lot of time and a bit of ink. G On Mon, 1 Jul 2019, Igor PDML-StR wrote: Godfrey, That information that the printer has an ink-changing cycle is interesting. But what is actually done during that cycle? I assumed that having both blacks simultaneously spares you from any ink waste, and what I am reading from your suggests (if I understood it correctly), that could be a wrong assumption. But I am still curious, - what do they actually do? Purge the nozzles from one black and initialize them with the other one? That would mean that despite having both black cartridges installed at the same time, they are multiplexing the head nozzles. But why? Why wouldn't they have separate sets of nozzles, just considering each black as a separate color (like they do for Light Black and Light-Light Black [LK and LLK])? Igor Godfrey DiGiorgi Sun, 30 Jun 2019 18:14:15 -0700 wrote: BTW: the P600 ink tanks are much larger than R2400 and R2880. They're up in the 20-25 ml range. And the Photo Black and Matte Black inks are installed simultaneously … the printer will even change ink mode automatically based upon the paper you select, if you enable that option. (I don't, because it means more possibilities of an ink change cycle which takes time and costs ink.) I've found the P600's ink tanks and general economy in printing reduce the per print cost quite significantly over the R2400. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
According to this article - tests done on the P600 by Red River Paper the ink used during black conversion is... * Matte to Photo Black approx. 3 ml * Photo to Matte Black approx. 1 ml Scroll about half way down the page... https://www.redrivercatalog.com/infocenter/articles/compare-epson-r2000-vs-epson-p600-which-to-purchase.html -p On 7/1/2019 7:10 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: You ask questions for which I can only conjecture, and I don't do that. I can only say for sure what the manual says. "EPSON P600 User Manual - page 137 Switching the Black Ink Type Switching the black ink type takes several minutes and consumes some ink in the process. Check the black ink type media list to select the correct type for the media you loaded. 1. Press the home button. 2. Press the black ink change button. 3. Select Proceed and select one of these types of black ink to switch to: • Photo Black to Matte Black—switching takes about 1.5 minutes • Matte Black to Photo Black—switching takes about 3.5 minutes" I would imagine that the two Black inks use the same feed lines in the head from this, and likely because of the added cost of doing independent feed lines (and whatever other complications that it might entail). But that's as far as I am willing to conjecture. I don't design this stuff, I use it. Far be it from me to tell the engineers how to do their job. I turned off autoswitching because I only rarely print on papers that don't take Matte Black ink and found that if I chose the wrong paper type at first then later changed to the correct paper type, the printer needlessly cycled back and forth wasting a lot of time and a bit of ink. G On Jul 1, 2019, at 3:16 PM, Igor PDML-StR wrote: Godfrey, That information that the printer has an ink-changing cycle is interesting. But what is actually done during that cycle? I assumed that having both blacks simultaneously spares you from any ink waste, and what I am reading from your suggests (if I understood it correctly), that could be a wrong assumption. But I am still curious, - what do they actually do? Purge the nozzles from one black and initialize them with the other one? That would mean that despite having both black cartridges installed at the same time, they are multiplexing the head nozzles. But why? Why wouldn't they have separate sets of nozzles, just considering each black as a separate color (like they do for Light Black and Light-Light Black [LK and LLK])? Igor Godfrey DiGiorgi Sun, 30 Jun 2019 18:14:15 -0700 wrote: BTW: the P600 ink tanks are much larger than R2400 and R2880. They're up in the 20-25 ml range. And the Photo Black and Matte Black inks are installed simultaneously … the printer will even change ink mode automatically based upon the paper you select, if you enable that option. (I don't, because it means more possibilities of an ink change cycle which takes time and costs ink.) I've found the P600's ink tanks and general economy in printing reduce the per print cost quite significantly over the R2400. -- Paul Sorenson Studio1941 Sooner or later "different" scares people. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
On 1/7/19, Godfrey DiGiorgi, discombobulated, unleashed: >You ask questions for which I can only conjecture, and I don't do that. Gotta be a MARK ;-) -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__UK Shoot / Edit and || (O) |Live Broadcast News -- _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
You ask questions for which I can only conjecture, and I don't do that. I can only say for sure what the manual says. "EPSON P600 User Manual - page 137 Switching the Black Ink Type Switching the black ink type takes several minutes and consumes some ink in the process. Check the black ink type media list to select the correct type for the media you loaded. 1. Press the home button. 2. Press the black ink change button. 3. Select Proceed and select one of these types of black ink to switch to: • Photo Black to Matte Black—switching takes about 1.5 minutes • Matte Black to Photo Black—switching takes about 3.5 minutes" I would imagine that the two Black inks use the same feed lines in the head from this, and likely because of the added cost of doing independent feed lines (and whatever other complications that it might entail). But that's as far as I am willing to conjecture. I don't design this stuff, I use it. Far be it from me to tell the engineers how to do their job. I turned off autoswitching because I only rarely print on papers that don't take Matte Black ink and found that if I chose the wrong paper type at first then later changed to the correct paper type, the printer needlessly cycled back and forth wasting a lot of time and a bit of ink. G > On Jul 1, 2019, at 3:16 PM, Igor PDML-StR wrote: > > > Godfrey, > > That information that the printer has an ink-changing cycle is interesting. > But what is actually done during that cycle? > I assumed that having both blacks simultaneously spares you from any > ink waste, and what I am reading from your suggests (if I understood it > correctly), that could be a wrong assumption. > > But I am still curious, - what do they actually do? Purge the nozzles from > one black and initialize them with the other one? That would mean > that despite having both black cartridges installed at the same time, they > are multiplexing the head nozzles. > But why? Why wouldn't they have separate sets of nozzles, just considering > each black as a separate color (like they do for Light Black and Light-Light > Black [LK and LLK])? > > > Igor > > > > Godfrey DiGiorgi Sun, 30 Jun 2019 18:14:15 -0700 wrote: > >> BTW: the P600 ink tanks are much larger than R2400 and R2880. They're up in >> the 20-25 ml range. And the Photo Black and Matte Black inks are installed >> simultaneously … the printer will even change ink mode automatically based >> upon the paper you select, if you enable that option. (I don't, because it >> means more possibilities of an ink change cycle which takes time and costs >> ink.) I've found the P600's ink tanks and general economy in printing reduce >> the per print cost quite significantly over the R2400. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
You ask questions for which I can only conjecture, and I don't do that. I can only say for sure what the manual says. "EPSON P600 User Manual - page 137 Switching the Black Ink Type Switching the black ink type takes several minutes and consumes some ink in the process. Check the black ink type media list to select the correct type for the media you loaded. 1. Press the home button. 2. Press the black ink change button. 3. Select Proceed and select one of these types of black ink to switch to: • Photo Black to Matte Black—switching takes about 1.5 minutes • Matte Black to Photo Black—switching takes about 3.5 minutes" I would imagine that the two Black inks use the same feed lines in the head from this, and likely because of the added cost of doing independent feed lines (and whatever other complications that it might entail). But that's as far as I am willing to conjecture. I don't design this stuff, I use it. Far be it from me to tell the engineers how to do their job. I turned off autoswitching because I only rarely print on papers that don't take Matte Black ink and found that if I chose the wrong paper type at first then later changed to the correct paper type, the printer needlessly cycled back and forth wasting a lot of time and a bit of ink. G > On Jul 1, 2019, at 3:16 PM, Igor PDML-StR wrote: > > > Godfrey, > > That information that the printer has an ink-changing cycle is interesting. > But what is actually done during that cycle? > I assumed that having both blacks simultaneously spares you from any > ink waste, and what I am reading from your suggests (if I understood it > correctly), that could be a wrong assumption. > > But I am still curious, - what do they actually do? Purge the nozzles from > one black and initialize them with the other one? That would mean > that despite having both black cartridges installed at the same time, they > are multiplexing the head nozzles. > But why? Why wouldn't they have separate sets of nozzles, just considering > each black as a separate color (like they do for Light Black and Light-Light > Black [LK and LLK])? > > > Igor > > > > Godfrey DiGiorgi Sun, 30 Jun 2019 18:14:15 -0700 wrote: > >> BTW: the P600 ink tanks are much larger than R2400 and R2880. They're up in >> the 20-25 ml range. And the Photo Black and Matte Black inks are installed >> simultaneously … the printer will even change ink mode automatically based >> upon the paper you select, if you enable that option. (I don't, because it >> means more possibilities of an ink change cycle which takes time and costs >> ink.) I've found the P600's ink tanks and general economy in printing reduce >> the per print cost quite significantly over the R2400. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
> On Jul 1, 2019, at 4:58 AM, Ralf R Radermacher wrote: > > Am 01.07.19 um 00:33 schrieb Godfrey DiGiorgi: > >> The worst thing you can do to a quality printer is let it sit. > > This appears to be the point. I've simply never printed enough. > > I was quite happy with my old 1270 which never gave me any problem. I > still have a number of prints hanging here after well over 10 years - > behind glass - that still look fine. The trouble started when Epson > repaired my 1270 to death and offered me a discount on a 2400 which I > thought I couldn't refuse. Little did I know. > > I've never even contemplated making money from my photography. I want it > to be fun and nothing else. > > In the last 20 years, I've sold exactly two prints. The rest is hanging > on my own walls. Obviously not enough to keep a printer with > pigment-based inks happy. That last is an interesting statement. Generally speaking, printers for dye-based inks tend to have a far greater chance of clogging because the nozzles have smaller orifices than the ones for pigment-based inks. My prior dye-based Epson 1160 (think that's the right number) and 1270 both died because the dye-based ink printing heads became irretrievably clogged and it was too expensive to replace the heads. None of the pigment-based printers I've had have ever had a clog. G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
This goes beyond the original questions, - but I've never known about the principal differences in the printer head technologies between Epson on one end and Canon & HP on the other. Some PDMLers might find it interesting. https://largeformatscanners.com/blog/4142/What-is-a-print-head-and-how-does-it-work- I don't know if that difference is applicable to the printers segment we are discussing here or only to the wide-format (17"+ or 24"+) printers (also sometimes called "poster printers" or even "plotters"). Igor -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
Godfrey, That information that the printer has an ink-changing cycle is interesting. But what is actually done during that cycle? I assumed that having both blacks simultaneously spares you from any ink waste, and what I am reading from your suggests (if I understood it correctly), that could be a wrong assumption. But I am still curious, - what do they actually do? Purge the nozzles from one black and initialize them with the other one? That would mean that despite having both black cartridges installed at the same time, they are multiplexing the head nozzles. But why? Why wouldn't they have separate sets of nozzles, just considering each black as a separate color (like they do for Light Black and Light-Light Black [LK and LLK])? Igor Godfrey DiGiorgi Sun, 30 Jun 2019 18:14:15 -0700 wrote: BTW: the P600 ink tanks are much larger than R2400 and R2880. They're up in the 20-25 ml range. And the Photo Black and Matte Black inks are installed simultaneously … the printer will even change ink mode automatically based upon the paper you select, if you enable that option. (I don't, because it means more possibilities of an ink change cycle which takes time and costs ink.) I've found the P600's ink tanks and general economy in printing reduce the per print cost quite significantly over the R2400. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
On 6/30/2019 19:33:46, Larry Colen wrote: There are, however, some advantages to printing myself, such as paper selection and being able to print any of my images, not just the family friendly ones. TMI -- Science - Questions we may never find answers for. Religion - Answers we must never question. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
I found that the break even point for prints is about 8x10, especially using the bargain Illford Gallery paper I picked up a few years back, it worked out to about 10¢ per sheet, which even with ink costs made an 8x10, or, 8 1/2 x 11 really, considerably less expensive than any of the local printers would charge. If I need to print anything smaller even Milford Photo can make any standard size print up to 5x7 for less than I can*. At $1.00 a sheet of more for paper I'm still able to make 8x10s for less, and I have at least nominal control over every step in the process from camera to print. *That is except for 4x6 proofs, until I run out of the Canon glossy paper that someone gave me a couple of years ago. I don't make a lot of those and even with the free paper I think I spend more on ink for the 2x6s than they would cost me at Walmart. On 6/30/2019 7:33 PM, Larry Colen wrote: mike wilson wrote on 6/30/19 1:34 PM: I don't have walls enough to hang all the prints I could make there with the money I've saved by not buying more ink for that stupid Epson printer. I'm with Ralf. I realised, well over a decade ago, that I had spent a four figure sum on hardware alone to print a three figure sum's worth of prints. After a prolonged bout of self-butt-kicking, I discarded the lot and have never been happier. When I got back into photography about 12 years ago, I asked a friend about prints. He said he had them done at Costco, it costs less per print than doing them himself and they have a better printer than he'd ever be able to afford. On top of that, they publish the ICC color profiles. About a month ago, the local Costco closed down their photo center, so it's no longer a thirty minute wait and a 15 minute drive to pick up prints. Fortunately, the Costco near my current jobsite still has photo printing. There are, however, some advantages to printing myself, such as paper selection and being able to print any of my images, not just the family friendly ones. -- America wasn't founded so that we could all be better. America was founded so we could all be anything we damn well please. - P.J. O'Rourke -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
Am 01.07.19 um 00:33 schrieb Godfrey DiGiorgi: The worst thing you can do to a quality printer is let it sit. This appears to be the point. I've simply never printed enough. I was quite happy with my old 1270 which never gave me any problem. I still have a number of prints hanging here after well over 10 years - behind glass - that still look fine. The trouble started when Epson repaired my 1270 to death and offered me a discount on a 2400 which I thought I couldn't refuse. Little did I know. I've never even contemplated making money from my photography. I want it to be fun and nothing else. In the last 20 years, I've sold exactly two prints. The rest is hanging on my own walls. Obviously not enough to keep a printer with pigment-based inks happy. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
I print my own for two reasons: - complete control of the imaging process (same reason I always process my own B film) - absolute freedom over what content I choose to print Never mind that I can make a print any time I want to, and at a materials cost of about $1 to $2 for ink and $4.50 for high quality, fine art grade 13x19 printing paper. I worked in a photofinishing lab for four years. No photofinishing lab can achieve the quality of the prints I make with the Epson P600, or offer the level of paper selection that I have at my disposal. A custom print shop might, but that would cost many times over what the cost of running my P600 is. BTW: the P600 ink tanks are much larger than R2400 and R2880. They're up in the 20-25 ml range. And the Photo Black and Matte Black inks are installed simultaneously … the printer will even change ink mode automatically based upon the paper you select, if you enable that option. (I don't, because it means more possibilities of an ink change cycle which takes time and costs ink.) I've found the P600's ink tanks and general economy in printing reduce the per print cost quite significantly over the R2400. B Photo is offering the Epson P600 at present for $693.00 along with a mail-in $200 rebate. That seems a great deal. Good luck deciding what you want. G > On Jun 30, 2019, at 4:33 PM, Larry Colen wrote: > > > > mike wilson wrote on 6/30/19 1:34 PM: > >>> >>> I don't have walls enough to hang all the prints I could make there with >>> the money I've saved by not buying more ink for that stupid Epson printer. >> I'm with Ralf. I realised, well over a decade ago, that I had spent a four >> figure sum on hardware alone to print a three figure sum's worth of prints. >> After a prolonged bout of self-butt-kicking, I discarded the lot and have >> never been happier. > > When I got back into photography about 12 years ago, I asked a friend about > prints. He said he had them done at Costco, it costs less per print than > doing them himself and they have a better printer than he'd ever be able to > afford. On top of that, they publish the ICC color profiles. > > About a month ago, the local Costco closed down their photo center, so it's > no longer a thirty minute wait and a 15 minute drive to pick up prints. > Fortunately, the Costco near my current jobsite still has photo printing. > > There are, however, some advantages to printing myself, such as paper > selection and being able to print any of my images, not just the family > friendly ones. > > > -- > Larry Colen l...@red4est.com http://red4est.com/lrc > https://www.flickr.com/photos/ellarsee/collections/72157612824732477/ > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
mike wilson wrote on 6/30/19 1:34 PM: I don't have walls enough to hang all the prints I could make there with the money I've saved by not buying more ink for that stupid Epson printer. I'm with Ralf. I realised, well over a decade ago, that I had spent a four figure sum on hardware alone to print a three figure sum's worth of prints. After a prolonged bout of self-butt-kicking, I discarded the lot and have never been happier. When I got back into photography about 12 years ago, I asked a friend about prints. He said he had them done at Costco, it costs less per print than doing them himself and they have a better printer than he'd ever be able to afford. On top of that, they publish the ICC color profiles. About a month ago, the local Costco closed down their photo center, so it's no longer a thirty minute wait and a 15 minute drive to pick up prints. Fortunately, the Costco near my current jobsite still has photo printing. There are, however, some advantages to printing myself, such as paper selection and being able to print any of my images, not just the family friendly ones. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com http://red4est.com/lrc https://www.flickr.com/photos/ellarsee/collections/72157612824732477/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
Cant find the original question. But if you want to print your own work, you need a printer. I always print my own work. I’ve had extremely good experiences with the Epson R2400 and then the Epson P600. I used the 2400 for about a decade, produced thousands of prints with it. I replaced it with the P600 and have similarly made thousands of prints with it. No clogs, no jams, superb printing quality, easy to use. Lots of compatible papers and paper profiles for these printers. That said, making quality prints is never just a button press. It takes some understanding and effort. If you’re not willing to put that into it, have others make your prints. The money I’ve made selling prints has paid for both printers many times over. Oh yes: The worst thing you can do to a quality printer is let it sit. Printers, like cameras, need to be exercised regularly or they get cranky. Inks dry out and clog, mechanisms get sticky, etc. Make a print or two every week and any printer will last much longer and have fewer problems. G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
> On 30 June 2019 at 19:11 Ralf R Radermacher wrote: > > > Am 30.06.19 um 18:29 schrieb Igor PDML-StR: > > > 1. The ink cartridges are very small, only 11.4 ml, and considerable > > amount of that ink is consumed when you do "head cleaning" (through the > > internal [comes with the printer driver] software utility), after you > > haven't used the printer for a while. Also it purges ink every time you > > power it up. > > Also, when you replace one ink, I believe, all inks are re-initiated, > > which also wastes some ink. > > Exactly. > > > That sometimes forces me to replace a cartridge that is not completely > > empty yet, when I am replacing an empty one, because otherwise, the > > almost-empty one will become empty shortly (or immediately) after the > > re-initialization, and then more ink would be wasted in 2 > > re-initialization procedures. > > Quite so. > > > 2. Photo black and matte black cannot be installed at the same time. > > If you switch them, _all_ the inks are re-initialized/purged. > > What a brilliant concept. For Epson. > > I've had the same trouble, over and over, eventually gave up when half > the colours were clogged yet again and I would have had to spend a few > hundred on ink, still not knowing if that would have got the printer > going and for how long. So I put it on ebay - with an honest > description, of course - and it still went for 60 euros. > > There's a drugstore with a decent printing station, at the next street > corner, and the town's biggest photo store with a whole selection of > printing options is a little over 5 minutes away. > > I don't have walls enough to hang all the prints I could make there with > the money I've saved by not buying more ink for that stupid Epson printer. I'm with Ralf. I realised, well over a decade ago, that I had spent a four figure sum on hardware alone to print a three figure sum's worth of prints. After a prolonged bout of self-butt-kicking, I discarded the lot and have never been happier. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
Am 30.06.19 um 18:29 schrieb Igor PDML-StR: 1. The ink cartridges are very small, only 11.4 ml, and considerable amount of that ink is consumed when you do "head cleaning" (through the internal [comes with the printer driver] software utility), after you haven't used the printer for a while. Also it purges ink every time you power it up. Also, when you replace one ink, I believe, all inks are re-initiated, which also wastes some ink. Exactly. That sometimes forces me to replace a cartridge that is not completely empty yet, when I am replacing an empty one, because otherwise, the almost-empty one will become empty shortly (or immediately) after the re-initialization, and then more ink would be wasted in 2 re-initialization procedures. Quite so. 2. Photo black and matte black cannot be installed at the same time. If you switch them, _all_ the inks are re-initialized/purged. What a brilliant concept. For Epson. I've had the same trouble, over and over, eventually gave up when half the colours were clogged yet again and I would have had to spend a few hundred on ink, still not knowing if that would have got the printer going and for how long. So I put it on ebay - with an honest description, of course - and it still went for 60 euros. There's a drugstore with a decent printing station, at the next street corner, and the town's biggest photo store with a whole selection of printing options is a little over 5 minutes away. I don't have walls enough to hang all the prints I could make there with the money I've saved by not buying more ink for that stupid Epson printer. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
I too use a ten year old Epson 2880. It’s my third Epson photo stylus printer and I wouldn’t consider anytime else. It turns out beautiful prints in BW or color, and when it dies I’ll replace it with the current equivalent or the top 17-inch model. My workflow and calibrated monitor turn out perfect prints on the first try. A 13 x19 borderless print on Epson Premium Luster paper costs me less than $3, and I sell quite a few for $25 each. Paul > On Jun 30, 2019, at 1:27 PM, Paul Sorenson wrote: > > I'll tack on to what PJ and Igor have mentioned. I've been using an Epson > R2000 since shortly after it was introduced in 2011 and as long as it keeps > working I'm happy with its output. I seldom use OEM paper, having settled > with Red River Paper as my paper of choice. That said, I'll include some > links below to reviews and printing cost tests that Red River has done. > > The Epson P400 is essentially a new version of the R2000. Matte black and > Photo black automatically switch according to paper type without any purging > of ink. The P600 and P800 use a different inkset than the P400 and while > they have all the black cartridges onboard they still go through a purge > cycle when switching from Matte black to Photo black and back again. Red > River has done some testing to get a feel for the amount of ink wasted during > the purge cycles. > > Here is a link to the reviews Red River has done on both Epson and Canon > printers... > > https://www.redrivercatalog.com/infocenter/articles/ > > And one to their reports on ink useage... > > https://www.redrivercatalog.com/cost-of-inkjet-printing.html > > Hope this helps some. > > -p > >> On 6/30/2019 11:29 AM, Igor PDML-StR wrote: >> >> Larry, >> >> I agree with what P.J. has written in his response. >> >> I have a couple thoughts to add to that. >> I've been using Epson R2880 for some 10 years. >> I am completely satisfied with the quality of the prints, but I am not very >> happy with two factors: >> 1. The ink cartridges are very small, only 11.4 ml, and considerable amount >> of that ink is consumed when you do "head cleaning" (through the internal >> [comes with the printer driver] software utility), after you haven't used >> the printer for a while. Also it purges ink every time you power it up. >> Also, when you replace one ink, I believe, all inks are re-initiated, which >> also wastes some ink. >> >> That sometimes forces me to replace a cartridge that is not completely empty >> yet, when I am replacing an empty one, because otherwise, the almost-empty >> one will become empty shortly (or immediately) after the re-initialization, >> and then more ink would be wasted in 2 re-initialization procedures. >> >> >> 2. Photo black and matte black cannot be installed at the same time. >> If you switch them, _all_ the inks are re-initialized/purged. >> >> The subsequent models have taken care of #2, but I am not sure if they made >> any part related to #1 more efficient. >> >> I don't know how other brand printers deal with the issue in #1, but I know >> that Canon imagePROGRAF (a step-up line of wider printers, 17" and up) >> initializes only the cartridge that you replaced. >> >> So, I would consider how the printer you are going to buy deals with >> various re-initialization and power-up procedures. >> (It is actually rather hard to find that information, short of trying the >> printer... ) >> >> >> >> But what I like is the UltraChrome die ink that Epson uses in this line of >> printers. >> >> The current models, I believe are Epson SureColor P400 and P600, >> and their current price after MIR is $379 and $493 at B >> The ink cartridge is slightly larger: 14 ml and 26 ml, respectively, >> with the prices about $18 per cartridge (or lower for some colors) >> for P400, and $31-32 for P600. (B offers a bundle where you save a few $ >> for a complete set). >> >> >> PS. I just found this page from ConsumerReports: >> https://www.consumerreports.org/printers/the-high-cost-of-wasted-printer-ink/ >> >> where they calculate the ink price per gallon (~$6400) and compare that >> to the price of other frequently purchase liquids, such as gas, milk >> and expensive Champagne. ;-) >> Both gas and milk are about 2000 times less expensive than printer ink. It's >> shocking to think about it that way, isn't it? >> >> >> Good luck, and let us know what you will find in the end! >> >> Igor >> >> >> >> Larry Colen Sat, 29 Jun 2019 18:16:18 -0700 wrote: >> >> Last fall I picked up a Pixma ix6820 primarily because I got a really good >> deal on it. I've since bought ink and am somewhat less enamored. I've mostly >> been using it to print out floor plans for my boss and might have the option >> of selling it to him and picking up something that suits my needs a bit >> better. >> >> >> Ideal specs would be: >> able to print at least 12" wide >> photo quality >> reasonably inexpensive to purchase and to
Re: Printer reccomendations
I'll tack on to what PJ and Igor have mentioned. I've been using an Epson R2000 since shortly after it was introduced in 2011 and as long as it keeps working I'm happy with its output. I seldom use OEM paper, having settled with Red River Paper as my paper of choice. That said, I'll include some links below to reviews and printing cost tests that Red River has done. The Epson P400 is essentially a new version of the R2000. Matte black and Photo black automatically switch according to paper type without any purging of ink. The P600 and P800 use a different inkset than the P400 and while they have all the black cartridges onboard they still go through a purge cycle when switching from Matte black to Photo black and back again. Red River has done some testing to get a feel for the amount of ink wasted during the purge cycles. Here is a link to the reviews Red River has done on both Epson and Canon printers... https://www.redrivercatalog.com/infocenter/articles/ And one to their reports on ink useage... https://www.redrivercatalog.com/cost-of-inkjet-printing.html Hope this helps some. -p On 6/30/2019 11:29 AM, Igor PDML-StR wrote: Larry, I agree with what P.J. has written in his response. I have a couple thoughts to add to that. I've been using Epson R2880 for some 10 years. I am completely satisfied with the quality of the prints, but I am not very happy with two factors: 1. The ink cartridges are very small, only 11.4 ml, and considerable amount of that ink is consumed when you do "head cleaning" (through the internal [comes with the printer driver] software utility), after you haven't used the printer for a while. Also it purges ink every time you power it up. Also, when you replace one ink, I believe, all inks are re-initiated, which also wastes some ink. That sometimes forces me to replace a cartridge that is not completely empty yet, when I am replacing an empty one, because otherwise, the almost-empty one will become empty shortly (or immediately) after the re-initialization, and then more ink would be wasted in 2 re-initialization procedures. 2. Photo black and matte black cannot be installed at the same time. If you switch them, _all_ the inks are re-initialized/purged. The subsequent models have taken care of #2, but I am not sure if they made any part related to #1 more efficient. I don't know how other brand printers deal with the issue in #1, but I know that Canon imagePROGRAF (a step-up line of wider printers, 17" and up) initializes only the cartridge that you replaced. So, I would consider how the printer you are going to buy deals with various re-initialization and power-up procedures. (It is actually rather hard to find that information, short of trying the printer... ) But what I like is the UltraChrome die ink that Epson uses in this line of printers. The current models, I believe are Epson SureColor P400 and P600, and their current price after MIR is $379 and $493 at B The ink cartridge is slightly larger: 14 ml and 26 ml, respectively, with the prices about $18 per cartridge (or lower for some colors) for P400, and $31-32 for P600. (B offers a bundle where you save a few $ for a complete set). PS. I just found this page from ConsumerReports: https://www.consumerreports.org/printers/the-high-cost-of-wasted-printer-ink/ where they calculate the ink price per gallon (~$6400) and compare that to the price of other frequently purchase liquids, such as gas, milk and expensive Champagne. ;-) Both gas and milk are about 2000 times less expensive than printer ink. It's shocking to think about it that way, isn't it? Good luck, and let us know what you will find in the end! Igor Larry Colen Sat, 29 Jun 2019 18:16:18 -0700 wrote: Last fall I picked up a Pixma ix6820 primarily because I got a really good deal on it. I've since bought ink and am somewhat less enamored. I've mostly been using it to print out floor plans for my boss and might have the option of selling it to him and picking up something that suits my needs a bit better. Ideal specs would be: able to print at least 12" wide photo quality reasonably inexpensive to purchase and to feed reasonably good quality/longevity 1) Are there any specific printers that you would recommend buying or avoiding? 2) Are there any details in particular that I should try to look for? -- Paul Sorenson Studio1941 Sooner or later "different" scares people. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
Larry, I agree with what P.J. has written in his response. I have a couple thoughts to add to that. I've been using Epson R2880 for some 10 years. I am completely satisfied with the quality of the prints, but I am not very happy with two factors: 1. The ink cartridges are very small, only 11.4 ml, and considerable amount of that ink is consumed when you do "head cleaning" (through the internal [comes with the printer driver] software utility), after you haven't used the printer for a while. Also it purges ink every time you power it up. Also, when you replace one ink, I believe, all inks are re-initiated, which also wastes some ink. That sometimes forces me to replace a cartridge that is not completely empty yet, when I am replacing an empty one, because otherwise, the almost-empty one will become empty shortly (or immediately) after the re-initialization, and then more ink would be wasted in 2 re-initialization procedures. 2. Photo black and matte black cannot be installed at the same time. If you switch them, _all_ the inks are re-initialized/purged. The subsequent models have taken care of #2, but I am not sure if they made any part related to #1 more efficient. I don't know how other brand printers deal with the issue in #1, but I know that Canon imagePROGRAF (a step-up line of wider printers, 17" and up) initializes only the cartridge that you replaced. So, I would consider how the printer you are going to buy deals with various re-initialization and power-up procedures. (It is actually rather hard to find that information, short of trying the printer... ) But what I like is the UltraChrome die ink that Epson uses in this line of printers. The current models, I believe are Epson SureColor P400 and P600, and their current price after MIR is $379 and $493 at B The ink cartridge is slightly larger: 14 ml and 26 ml, respectively, with the prices about $18 per cartridge (or lower for some colors) for P400, and $31-32 for P600. (B offers a bundle where you save a few $ for a complete set). PS. I just found this page from ConsumerReports: https://www.consumerreports.org/printers/the-high-cost-of-wasted-printer-ink/ where they calculate the ink price per gallon (~$6400) and compare that to the price of other frequently purchase liquids, such as gas, milk and expensive Champagne. ;-) Both gas and milk are about 2000 times less expensive than printer ink. It's shocking to think about it that way, isn't it? Good luck, and let us know what you will find in the end! Igor Larry Colen Sat, 29 Jun 2019 18:16:18 -0700 wrote: Last fall I picked up a Pixma ix6820 primarily because I got a really good deal on it. I've since bought ink and am somewhat less enamored. I've mostly been using it to print out floor plans for my boss and might have the option of selling it to him and picking up something that suits my needs a bit better. Ideal specs would be: able to print at least 12" wide photo quality reasonably inexpensive to purchase and to feed reasonably good quality/longevity 1) Are there any specific printers that you would recommend buying or avoiding? 2) Are there any details in particular that I should try to look for? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Printer reccomendations
I've been using a Pixma ix6520 which I believe is the model that your printer replaced. Probably uses the same ink set just lacking wireless support. Ink's can be expensive to put it mildly, but, I haven't found an inexpensive printer that has better image longevity, using good quality paper. I've been using it since my HP wide carriage printer died when it's print head jammed in the locked position and HP wanted nothing to do with repairing it. None of the inexpensive 13x19 printers are cheap to feed, you can sometimes find bargains on paper, but ink, if you don't buy OEM, you're just asking for trouble in my experience, and the bulk ink systems that can bring the cost per picoliter into something resembling physical sanity, that are sometimes designed for more expensive "professional" printers just don't seem to be available for the less expensive printers, the last is especially true of Canon due to design considerations. With careful image choice and preparation the results are good. It just takes practice, and a bit of work, to get the parts of the system that can be calibrated so that soft proofing is possible to work right. I haven't found the longevity of the images all that bad either. When displayed behind glass out of direct sunlight I've seen no noticeable degradation of any the images I've printed with it so far, some are several years old, (and Canon has claimed a 75 year lifespan, not much shorter than the 100 years claimed for their pigment ink printers), Much better than supposedly archival images I printed with previous printers. Honestly I don't know what inexpensive 13"x19" printer I could recommend that would be better. I know that Canon now makes an 8 ink printer that sells for a bit under three times what I paid for the ix6520 that uses a couple of additional colors in addition to the CMYK dye inkset, and a grey cartridge for improved B printing, but you'll run into the same cost per print issues but with more inks. The higher end printers are easier to calibrate, on some systems, but the price of the next real step up in the Canon line the Pixma Pro 100 using an 8 color pigment ink system, is about $500 though I think Amazon has it on sale now for $350. You'll still be buying ink in cartridges and no OEM continuous ink supply system available. I On 6/29/2019 9:15 PM, Larry Colen wrote: Last fall I picked up a Pixma ix6820 primarily because I got a really good deal on it. I've since bought ink and am somewhat less enamored. I've mostly been using it to print out floor plans for my boss and might have the option of selling it to him and picking up something that suits my needs a bit better. Ideal specs would be: able to print at least 12" wide photo quality reasonably inexpensive to purchase and to feed reasonably good quality/longevity 1) Are there any specific printers that you would recommend buying or avoiding? 2) Are there any details in particular that I should try to look for? -- America wasn't founded so that we could all be better. America was founded so we could all be anything we damn well please. - P.J. O'Rourke -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Printer reccomendations
Last fall I picked up a Pixma ix6820 primarily because I got a really good deal on it. I've since bought ink and am somewhat less enamored. I've mostly been using it to print out floor plans for my boss and might have the option of selling it to him and picking up something that suits my needs a bit better. Ideal specs would be: able to print at least 12" wide photo quality reasonably inexpensive to purchase and to feed reasonably good quality/longevity 1) Are there any specific printers that you would recommend buying or avoiding? 2) Are there any details in particular that I should try to look for? -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com http://red4est.com/lrc https://www.flickr.com/photos/ellarsee/collections/72157612824732477/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
