Re: OT question for electronics geeks
JC OCONNELL wrote: > Hey there, Dont misquote me, I didnt state that, someone else did. Oops. Sorry about that. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
Going to hear the Philadelphia Orchestra tonight. It will be real music. Rick http://photo.net/photos/RickW - Original Message - From: "knarftheria...@gmail.com" To: ""Pentax-Discuss Mail List"" Cc: Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 11:25 PM Subject: Re: OT question for electronics geeks >snip< Even going to concerts doesn't guarantee hearing real, live music. Cheers, frank "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." -- Christopher Hitchens --- Original Message --- From: Doug Franklin Sent: February 3, 2012 2/3/12 To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Subject: Re: OT question for electronics geeks Lots of those people haven't heard, and don't listen to, actual music. :-) -- Doug "Lefty" Franklin NutDriver Racing http://NutDriver.org Facebook "NutDriver Racing" Sponsored by Murphy -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT question for electronics geeks
From: Igor Roshchin Rick Womer wrote: I have this nifty new receiver, which sounds great--a huge improvement over my 38-year-old Pioneer. What puzzles me is the volume control: Minimum volume is -90dB (mute), and maximum is +15dB. Huh? What is zero dB? Is it an arbitrary point? Is it linked to some undisclosed property of the unit? I can tell you that 0dB is too loud to be in the room with using the tuner, barely tolerable with a CD, and just a bit loud with an LP. Otherwise, the scale makes no sense to me. Typically, 0 dB represents 1 mW (milliWatt). The formula for power is L_dB= 10 log_10 * (P1 / P0), where P0=1 mW So, -90 dB - +15 dB would mean the range from 1 pW (picoWatt) [non-audible] to ~32 Watt. That is probably smaller than the max output of your tuner. What bothers me is that in this definition, 600 Ohm load is assumed. So, for the typical speaker load of 8 0hm , the same voltage will produce 75 times higher power.. But that would be way too much (32 Watt * 75)! But at the same time some sources suggest that 0 dB in case of audio tuners/amplifiers corresponds to the maximum output level with no noticable distortions. Then, I am not sure how the maximum output power relates to this. I can see two possibilities: 1) 15 dB corresponds to the max rated output power (say, 100 W). Then it would mean that you don't have distortions up to about 3 W, which is too small. 2) 0 dB corresponds to the max rated output power (say, 100 W). Then it would mean that the amplifier can drive up to 3200 W, which is way to much. So, I am confused by that specification. You're confused because you're trying to find an engineering definition in market-speak. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
A good read! On Feb 3, 2012, at 11:23 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > Since we're descending into a morass of audio geekdom: > http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2010/03/04/Record-Player (with > a decent picture, too). -T > > On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 8:06 PM, knarftheria...@gmail.com > wrote: >> It's even worse than that. >> >> I remember friends who bought receivers and bragged about how "powerful" >> their equipment was, proving it by getting ear-splitting volume by turning >> the knob up to 3 (out of 10). >> >> "CAN'T TURN IT ABOVE 3!", they'd shout over the music, "IT GETS TOO LOUD!" >> >> What they didn't mention is that beyond 3.1 the amp clipped so bad it made >> blood spurt out your ears. >> >> All it really meant is that the volume control was a waste of 3/4 of its >> rotation and therefore was able to do only a mediocre job (at best) of >> effectively modulating the volume. >> >> It was all marketing, wasn't it? >> >> cheers, >> frank >> >> "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." -- >> Christopher Hitchens >> >> --- Original Message --- >> >> From: Doug Franklin >> Sent: February 3, 2012 2/3/12 >> To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" >> Subject: Re: OT question for electronics geeks >> >> >> >> C'mon folks, it's really very simple. The "self-loudness" ratings that >> consumer electronics give themselves have NO ASSOCIATION WITH ANYTHING >> REAL! I mean, really, why are you kidding yourselves? The circuit does >> something, the "volume" knob turns through a certain arc. What the Hell >> does that have to do with the runes inscribed on the faceplate? >> Especially after some "designer" with a "name" gets hold of it? >> >> -- >> Doug "Lefty" Franklin >> NutDriver Racing >> http://NutDriver.org >> Facebook "NutDriver Racing" >> Sponsored by Murphy >> >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
On Feb 4, 2012, at 8:20 AM, steve harley wrote: > on 2012-02-03 12:10 Collin Brendemuehl wrote >> "0 db" is not an output. It is the amount of attenuation (resistance) >> that the volume knob puts in the electron path. It is equivalent to >> "full volume" and means nothing else -- it has no reference to what >> that maximum output might be. > > sounds great except the knob goes to +15 ... Yes, this means it has 15dB of gain available to compensate for low input signals. dB is all relative, it can be positive to indicate gain or negative to indicate attenuation. With preamplifiers 0dB simply means that the outgoing signal is at exactly the same level as the input. In an integrated amplifier the preamp is built into the same box as the power amplifier but the gain still refers to the preamp only, ie before the signal goes into the power amplifier which adds some extra gain to drive the speakers. FWIW my power amplifiers are about +24dB and +27 dB. I'm using active crossovers so I have to compensate for the different amplifier gains as well as the driver sensitivities, but that's getting a bit far off-topic. Because amplifiers tend to be quite sensitive, 0dB of input signal attenuation will usually send them well into clipping with most modern signal sources. So the actual dB figure is fairly meaningless and in a consumer environment I consider it nothing more than wankery. On a related note, a while ago I ended up attenuating my headphone amplifier to about -12 or -15dB because even 0dB gain (at the full volume setting) made the volume control too coarse for my headphones. It was a bit like Frank's friend with bleeding ears at 3/10. Now I have a comfortable listening level between about 10 and 12 o'clock depending on what I'm playing. One of these days I'll get around to making a nice stepped attenuator for it. Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
Very interesting blog post, Tim! It was a sad day when my old Ariston RD40 with Benz Micro moving coil cartridge got crushed by a falling cd rack - how's that for irony? While my current cd playback system does a decent job, there was a certain "something" about vinyl that is missing in digital reproduction. Of course hi-fidelity sound reproduction will soon be a thing of the past for all but the well-heeled. Cd's will soon go the way of vinyl to be only available at garage sales and second hand stores or made in very small quantities for specialty dealers. In the meanwhile enjoy your record player. I envy you. Cheers, frank "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." -- Christopher Hitchens --- Original Message --- From: Tim Bray Sent: February 3, 2012 2/3/12 To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Subject: Re: OT question for electronics geeks Since we're descending into a morass of audio geekdom: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2010/03/04/Record-Player (with a decent picture, too). -T On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 8:06 PM, knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: > It's even worse than that. > > I remember friends who bought receivers and bragged about how "powerful" > their equipment was, proving it by getting ear-splitting volume by turning > the knob up to 3 (out of 10). > > "CAN'T TURN IT ABOVE 3!", they'd shout over the music, "IT GETS TOO LOUD!" > > What they didn't mention is that beyond 3.1 the amp clipped so bad it made > blood spurt out your ears. > > All it really meant is that the volume control was a waste of 3/4 of its > rotation and therefore was able to do only a mediocre job (at best) of > effectively modulating the volume. > > It was all marketing, wasn't it? > > cheers, > frank > > "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." -- > Christopher Hitchens > > --- Original Message --- > > From: Doug Franklin > Sent: February 3, 2012 2/3/12 > To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" > Subject: Re: OT question for electronics geeks > > > > C'mon folks, it's really very simple. The "self-loudness" ratings that > consumer electronics give themselves have NO ASSOCIATION WITH ANYTHING > REAL! I mean, really, why are you kidding yourselves? The circuit does > something, the "volume" knob turns through a certain arc. What the Hell > does that have to do with the runes inscribed on the faceplate? > Especially after some "designer" with a "name" gets hold of it? > > -- > Doug "Lefty" Franklin > NutDriver Racing > http://NutDriver.org > Facebook "NutDriver Racing" > Sponsored by Murphy > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
On 2012-02-03 23:25, knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: Much pop music is so over-produced that it can't possibly be reproduced in a live setting without manipulations and pre-recorded loops, etc. Even going to concerts doesn't guarantee hearing real, live music. That's exactly what I mean, and it isn't new. I don't know how far back it goes, but I remember Kansas losing a lawsuit over "lip syncing" long before Milli Vanilli got out of diapers. -- Doug "Lefty" Franklin NutDriver Racing http://NutDriver.org Facebook "NutDriver Racing" Sponsored by Murphy -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
On 2012-02-03 23:23, Tim Bray wrote: Since we're descending into a morass of audio geekdom: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2010/03/04/Record-Player (with a decent picture, too). -T You obviously don't have cats. :-) -- Doug "Lefty" Franklin NutDriver Racing http://NutDriver.org Facebook "NutDriver Racing" Sponsored by Murphy -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
On 2012-02-03 23:06, knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: It was all marketing, wasn't it? Was? -- Doug "Lefty" Franklin NutDriver Racing http://NutDriver.org Facebook "NutDriver Racing" Sponsored by Murphy -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
Much pop music is so over-produced that it can't possibly be reproduced in a live setting without manipulations and pre-recorded loops, etc. Even going to concerts doesn't guarantee hearing real, live music. Cheers, frank "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." -- Christopher Hitchens --- Original Message --- From: Doug Franklin Sent: February 3, 2012 2/3/12 To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Subject: Re: OT question for electronics geeks Lots of those people haven't heard, and don't listen to, actual music. :-) -- Doug "Lefty" Franklin NutDriver Racing http://NutDriver.org Facebook "NutDriver Racing" Sponsored by Murphy -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
Since we're descending into a morass of audio geekdom: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2010/03/04/Record-Player (with a decent picture, too). -T On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 8:06 PM, knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: > It's even worse than that. > > I remember friends who bought receivers and bragged about how "powerful" > their equipment was, proving it by getting ear-splitting volume by turning > the knob up to 3 (out of 10). > > "CAN'T TURN IT ABOVE 3!", they'd shout over the music, "IT GETS TOO LOUD!" > > What they didn't mention is that beyond 3.1 the amp clipped so bad it made > blood spurt out your ears. > > All it really meant is that the volume control was a waste of 3/4 of its > rotation and therefore was able to do only a mediocre job (at best) of > effectively modulating the volume. > > It was all marketing, wasn't it? > > cheers, > frank > > "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." -- > Christopher Hitchens > > --- Original Message --- > > From: Doug Franklin > Sent: February 3, 2012 2/3/12 > To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" > Subject: Re: OT question for electronics geeks > > > > C'mon folks, it's really very simple. The "self-loudness" ratings that > consumer electronics give themselves have NO ASSOCIATION WITH ANYTHING > REAL! I mean, really, why are you kidding yourselves? The circuit does > something, the "volume" knob turns through a certain arc. What the Hell > does that have to do with the runes inscribed on the faceplate? > Especially after some "designer" with a "name" gets hold of it? > > -- > Doug "Lefty" Franklin > NutDriver Racing > http://NutDriver.org > Facebook "NutDriver Racing" > Sponsored by Murphy > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
It's even worse than that. I remember friends who bought receivers and bragged about how "powerful" their equipment was, proving it by getting ear-splitting volume by turning the knob up to 3 (out of 10). "CAN'T TURN IT ABOVE 3!", they'd shout over the music, "IT GETS TOO LOUD!" What they didn't mention is that beyond 3.1 the amp clipped so bad it made blood spurt out your ears. All it really meant is that the volume control was a waste of 3/4 of its rotation and therefore was able to do only a mediocre job (at best) of effectively modulating the volume. It was all marketing, wasn't it? cheers, frank "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." -- Christopher Hitchens --- Original Message --- From: Doug Franklin Sent: February 3, 2012 2/3/12 To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Subject: Re: OT question for electronics geeks C'mon folks, it's really very simple. The "self-loudness" ratings that consumer electronics give themselves have NO ASSOCIATION WITH ANYTHING REAL! I mean, really, why are you kidding yourselves? The circuit does something, the "volume" knob turns through a certain arc. What the Hell does that have to do with the runes inscribed on the faceplate? Especially after some "designer" with a "name" gets hold of it? -- Doug "Lefty" Franklin NutDriver Racing http://NutDriver.org Facebook "NutDriver Racing" Sponsored by Murphy -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
On 2012-02-03 16:37, steve harley wrote: on 2012-02-03 13:35 George Sinos wrote This discussion is very interesting. My guess is the numbers don't really correspond to any particular value. The designer probably thought the fairly technical numbers gave the front panel a feeling of "technicality." my Yamaha RX-1100 (same brand as Rick's receiver, but about 20 years C'mon folks, it's really very simple. The "self-loudness" ratings that consumer electronics give themselves have NO ASSOCIATION WITH ANYTHING REAL! I mean, really, why are you kidding yourselves? The circuit does something, the "volume" knob turns through a certain arc. What the Hell does that have to do with the runes inscribed on the faceplate? Especially after some "designer" with a "name" gets hold of it? -- Doug "Lefty" Franklin NutDriver Racing http://NutDriver.org Facebook "NutDriver Racing" Sponsored by Murphy -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
On 2012-02-03 15:35, George Sinos wrote: Most of these people said they wanted their music to sound "good." The them, as long as it thumped real loud, it sounded good. Lots of those people haven't heard, and don't listen to, actual music. :-) -- Doug "Lefty" Franklin NutDriver Racing http://NutDriver.org Facebook "NutDriver Racing" Sponsored by Murphy -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
on 2012-02-03 17:06 Ralf R. Radermacher wrote Faders in studio equipment, e.g. mixing consoles, are usually labelled from minus infinity through 0 dB (the normal "open" position) to +15 dB. I suppose the manufacturer of the amplifier has put these dB values around the volume knob to make it look more professional. i think that makes the source of Rick's receiver's markings fairly clear -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT question for electronics geeks
Setting tape recording levels is a tradeoff between distortion and noise. VU meters are different from peak reading digital meters, it gets tricky To find ideal recording levels but for home use with dolby I always liked To use good tape and err on the side of recording too low rather than Recording too high a level. Hiss I could tolerate, distortion, not so much. -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 7:28 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT question for electronics geeks John Francis wrote: >I'm pretty sure the meters on my tape decks, etc. all had a "0" >setting around 3/4 of the way along. On the old mechanical ones >the area behind the needle past that point was painted red; on the >later electronic ones that was where the colour of the indicator >lights changed from green to red. > >The zero point was where the best signal-to-noise ratio could be >attained. Conventional wisdom said you tried to keep sustained >recording levels below that point, but as close to it as possible; >occasional (brief) peaks into the red were OK. > >[Very much like "exposing to the right" by using the histogram] Wow. A lot of nostalgia here! Being a bit of an audio geek (and working as a technician in recording studios) I did a lot of tape deck calibration. The "0" point was supposed to represent a specific level of magnetization of the tape, which was determined by the tape manufacturer, IIRC by measuring distortion levels as the signal level approached saturation (the magnetic tape equivalent of 255-255-255 RGB clipping in a digital image). The thing is, this was different for every specific tape formulation. What a pain it was dealing with all the different tape types! Of course, at the recording studio we just standardized on one single tape and I'd just have to align the machines at the start of every new project. You'd start with a lab-calibrated alignment tape (very expensive) and get the playback calibrated. They you'd make recordings and play them back, adjusting the recording settings until you get the correct playback characteristics. The thing was, the manufacturers kept improving tape formulations. Ironically enough, this was happening at the fastest rate during the final years of analog recording tape manufacture by 3M. It seemed that every year there would be a new formula that could take a stronger signal before saturation - say, an extra 3dB. Now since the lab-made calibration tape was a fixed standard, you'd have to calibrate playback levels to -3db as shown by the meters (the tape came with instructions for the exact level) and then re-calibrate the *meters* to show that new level as 0db. And then re-calibrate recording levels (which would work out 3dB hotter). In the end I think we were calibrating to be hitting the tape 9 or 12 dB hotter than the reference tape and still not coming near saturation with the tape formulations in use! So 0dB in tape recording was very far indeed from a fixed standard! -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
I think I got my Creek in the mid to late 80s. I had considered the NAD and Rotel but for various reasons ended up with the Creek, a decision I never regretted. It's currently fed by a Technics cd player with a Kimber optical link from the transport directly into an MSB d/a converter. It drives a pair of Klipsch kg2 speakers (the later version with passive radiators) through Monitor cable. The speakers sit on sand-filled Target stands and the components on a Sound Organization table - all fully spiked of course. It sounds pretty good, and barring breakdown will likely be the system that I die with. :-) cheers, frank "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." -- Christopher Hitchens --- Original Message --- From: Larry Colen Sent: February 3, 2012 2/3/12 To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Subject: Re: OT question for electronics geeks On 2/3/2012 2:07 PM, knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: > It's all bull do-do isn't it? > > As George said earlier, it's to make it look more "technical"; I'm sure the > numbers on the faceplate bear little relation to any real output, ratios, > volts, watts, or anything else. > > My Creek CAS 4040 has no numbers. Ya turns the volume knob clockwise and the > volume goes up. When it reaches an acceptable level ya stops turning. Too > loud? Ya turns the knob the other way. > > Easy-peasy. > > We don't need no stinking numbers. Just like my NAD 3020, the one I got in November '79, and is within arms reach of where I sit. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com (from dos4est) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT question for electronics geeks
Hey there, Dont misquote me, I didnt state that, someone else did. Seriously, jco PS. I stated the 0dB marking was just arbitrary and the rest Of the dial was marked in dB for reference only to the Arbitrary 0dB marking. In reality an amplifer has a voltage Gain in dB at specific settings of the volume control dial. I would venture to say that at the marked 0dB setting there is actually A voltage gain of something on the order of 25 dB. What they Did was probably just mark the typical volume control setting as 0 dB Arbitrarily, and show all other "non-typical" settings of the Volume control in dB relative to that arbitrary 0 dB marking. The whole thing is nearly moot as most people just adjust the volume They want by ear and really couldnt care less about how many dB they Are changing the setting up or down. -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Ralf R. Radermacher Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 7:06 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT question for electronics geeks JC OCONNELL wrote: > Typically, 0 dB represents 1 mW (milliWatt). This is only the case with dBm where 0 dBm is indeed 1 mW across 600 Ohm, corresponding to a voltage of 0.775 V. dB with nothing behind expresses any kind of logarithmic ratio. Amplification, attenuation, signal-to-noise, whatever. You could define the price of a K-5 as 0 dB and then give the prices of all other cameras as plus (or minus) x dB. A camera costing +6 dB would be twice as expensive. -6 dB would be half price etc. Faders in studio equipment, e.g. mixing consoles, are usually labelled from minus infinity through 0 dB (the normal "open" position) to +15 dB. I suppose the manufacturer of the amplifier has put these dB values around the volume knob to make it look more professional. But don't take my word for it. I'm just a simple audio engineer. ;-) Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
John Francis wrote: >I'm pretty sure the meters on my tape decks, etc. all had a "0" >setting around 3/4 of the way along. On the old mechanical ones >the area behind the needle past that point was painted red; on the >later electronic ones that was where the colour of the indicator >lights changed from green to red. > >The zero point was where the best signal-to-noise ratio could be >attained. Conventional wisdom said you tried to keep sustained >recording levels below that point, but as close to it as possible; >occasional (brief) peaks into the red were OK. > >[Very much like "exposing to the right" by using the histogram] Wow. A lot of nostalgia here! Being a bit of an audio geek (and working as a technician in recording studios) I did a lot of tape deck calibration. The "0" point was supposed to represent a specific level of magnetization of the tape, which was determined by the tape manufacturer, IIRC by measuring distortion levels as the signal level approached saturation (the magnetic tape equivalent of 255-255-255 RGB clipping in a digital image). The thing is, this was different for every specific tape formulation. What a pain it was dealing with all the different tape types! Of course, at the recording studio we just standardized on one single tape and I'd just have to align the machines at the start of every new project. You'd start with a lab-calibrated alignment tape (very expensive) and get the playback calibrated. They you'd make recordings and play them back, adjusting the recording settings until you get the correct playback characteristics. The thing was, the manufacturers kept improving tape formulations. Ironically enough, this was happening at the fastest rate during the final years of analog recording tape manufacture by 3M. It seemed that every year there would be a new formula that could take a stronger signal before saturation - say, an extra 3dB. Now since the lab-made calibration tape was a fixed standard, you'd have to calibrate playback levels to -3db as shown by the meters (the tape came with instructions for the exact level) and then re-calibrate the *meters* to show that new level as 0db. And then re-calibrate recording levels (which would work out 3dB hotter). In the end I think we were calibrating to be hitting the tape 9 or 12 dB hotter than the reference tape and still not coming near saturation with the tape formulations in use! So 0dB in tape recording was very far indeed from a fixed standard! -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
JC OCONNELL wrote: > Typically, 0 dB represents 1 mW (milliWatt). This is only the case with dBm where 0 dBm is indeed 1 mW across 600 Ohm, corresponding to a voltage of 0.775 V. dB with nothing behind expresses any kind of logarithmic ratio. Amplification, attenuation, signal-to-noise, whatever. You could define the price of a K-5 as 0 dB and then give the prices of all other cameras as plus (or minus) x dB. A camera costing +6 dB would be twice as expensive. -6 dB would be half price etc. Faders in studio equipment, e.g. mixing consoles, are usually labelled from minus infinity through 0 dB (the normal "open" position) to +15 dB. I suppose the manufacturer of the amplifier has put these dB values around the volume knob to make it look more professional. But don't take my word for it. I'm just a simple audio engineer. ;-) Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 04:16:53PM -0700, steve harley wrote: > on 2012-02-03 14:49 Mark Roberts wrote > >steve harley wrote: > >>so Yamaha apparently has a tradition of indicating volume in dB; > > > >They aren't really indicating volume in dB, they are, as you noted, > >showing the amount of *attenuation* between pre-amp and power amp in > >dB. Very different thing. > > hmmm ... > well, if you look at the "tradition" i was trying to point out, > while the number on the dial seems to literally mean attenuation in > the case of my receiver, it's clearly something else in the case of > Rick's; the reference point and the direction are different, but > what is consistent is that effective relative _volume_ is being > _indicated_ in dB; so i think my use of the term "indicating" is > accurate whether or not actual spl (sound pressure level) is in > direct proportion to these values WHS. I'm pretty sure the meters on my tape decks, etc. all had a "0" setting around 3/4 of the way along. On the old mechanical ones the area behind the needle past that point was painted red; on the later electronic ones that was where the colour of the indicator lights changed from green to red. The zero point was where the best signal-to-noise ratio could be attained. Conventional wisdom said you tried to keep sustained recording levels below that point, but as close to it as possible; occasional (brief) peaks into the red were OK. [Very much like "exposing to the right" by using the histogram] -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
on 2012-02-03 14:49 Mark Roberts wrote steve harley wrote: so Yamaha apparently has a tradition of indicating volume in dB; They aren't really indicating volume in dB, they are, as you noted, showing the amount of *attenuation* between pre-amp and power amp in dB. Very different thing. hmmm ... well, if you look at the "tradition" i was trying to point out, while the number on the dial seems to literally mean attenuation in the case of my receiver, it's clearly something else in the case of Rick's; the reference point and the direction are different, but what is consistent is that effective relative _volume_ is being _indicated_ in dB; so i think my use of the term "indicating" is accurate whether or not actual spl (sound pressure level) is in direct proportion to these values -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
on 2012-02-03 15:07 knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote We don't need no stinking numbers. i use the numbers so that i can put the control to a good spot before i actually play the music; it's true, though, that i don't really care what they mean; only venturing to guess what they mean because it was asked -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
"Bull do-do" is flattery. It can be useful fertilizer. The numbers, on the other hand, are useless. Rick http://photo.net/photos/RickW From: "knarftheria...@gmail.com" To: ""Pentax-Discuss Mail List"" Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 5:07 PM Subject: Re: OT question for electronics geeks It's all bull do-do isn't it? As George said earlier, it's to make it look more "technical"; I'm sure the numbers on the faceplate bear little relation to any real output, ratios, volts, watts, or anything else. My Creek CAS 4040 has no numbers. Ya turns the volume knob clockwise and the volume goes up. When it reaches an acceptable level ya stops turning. Too loud? Ya turns the knob the other way. Easy-peasy. We don't need no stinking numbers. ;-) cheers, frank "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." -- Christopher Hitchens --- Original Message --- From: Mark Roberts Sent: February 3, 2012 2/3/12 To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Subject: Re: OT question for electronics geeks steve harley wrote: >on 2012-02-03 13:35 George Sinos wrote >> This discussion is very interesting. >> >> My guess is the numbers don't really correspond to any particular >> value. The designer probably thought the fairly technical numbers >> gave the front panel a feeling of "technicality." > > >my Yamaha RX-1100 (same brand as Rick's receiver, but about 20 years older) >has >a volume knob that goes ? 60 50 40 34 and by increasingly small increments >"up" >to 0, the maximum volume; i believe the lowest number i've used is 24, which >is >about 1/3 of the way "up" from ?; i interpret these as numbers as dB >attenuation from max (expressed as such they are clear without being negative) > >so Yamaha apparently has a tradition of indicating volume in dB; They aren't really indicating volume in dB, they are, as you noted, showing the amount of *attenuation* between pre-amp and power amp in dB. Very different thing. >yet i could >see marketing dweebs in the mid-90s or later expressing concern that topping >out at zero would hurt sales and thus a concept of a 0dB reference was >substituted for attenuation from max Yep, I can see that! >or it could be that as with many newer AV receivers, there is a calibration >tool included that can listen to the system and balance it, and if possible >set >0dB to the 85dB listening reference as mentioned above; You'd have to have a separate calibration for every input source (including internal ones like the AM and FM tuners) and use a known signal. And even then it wouldn't be accurate for tapes, records or CDs because there is so much variation between recording levels. Still, being able to trim input sources would be a good idea. -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
[sighs heavily] The NAD 3020 was one of the greats. My wife uses my old one downstairs to drive some PSBs plugged into her computer. There's a bit of a scratch in the volume control these days, but otherwise perfect. -T On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Larry Colen wrote: > > > On 2/3/2012 2:07 PM, knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> It's all bull do-do isn't it? >> >> As George said earlier, it's to make it look more "technical"; I'm sure >> the numbers on the faceplate bear little relation to any real output, >> ratios, volts, watts, or anything else. >> >> My Creek CAS 4040 has no numbers. Ya turns the volume knob clockwise and >> the volume goes up. When it reaches an acceptable level ya stops turning. >> Too loud? Ya turns the knob the other way. >> >> Easy-peasy. >> >> We don't need no stinking numbers. > > > Just like my NAD 3020, the one I got in November '79, and is within arms > reach of where I sit. > > > -- > Larry Colen l...@red4est.com (from dos4est) > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
On 2/3/2012 2:07 PM, knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: It's all bull do-do isn't it? As George said earlier, it's to make it look more "technical"; I'm sure the numbers on the faceplate bear little relation to any real output, ratios, volts, watts, or anything else. My Creek CAS 4040 has no numbers. Ya turns the volume knob clockwise and the volume goes up. When it reaches an acceptable level ya stops turning. Too loud? Ya turns the knob the other way. Easy-peasy. We don't need no stinking numbers. Just like my NAD 3020, the one I got in November '79, and is within arms reach of where I sit. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com (from dos4est) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
I think I've had it for over 20 years now and it is a wonderful sounding amp. Toroidal transformer, discrete components, mosfet power transistors, high current capability. Most important, it sounds great. And it has a very useful volume control. Seriously. ;-) Cheers, frank "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." -- Christopher Hitchens --- Original Message --- From: Mark Roberts Sent: February 3, 2012 2/3/12 To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Subject: Re: OT question for electronics geeks knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: >My Creek CAS 4040 has no numbers. Ya turns the volume knob clockwise and the >volume goes up. When it reaches an acceptable level ya stops turning. Too >loud? Ya turns the knob the other way. By the way, that Creek 4040 is a *superb* integrated amp. Far better than any major-brand receiver you could buy. -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: >My Creek CAS 4040 has no numbers. Ya turns the volume knob clockwise and the >volume goes up. When it reaches an acceptable level ya stops turning. Too >loud? Ya turns the knob the other way. By the way, that Creek 4040 is a *superb* integrated amp. Far better than any major-brand receiver you could buy. -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: >It's all bull do-do isn't it? Well yes, that's the short version. :) -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
It's all bull do-do isn't it? As George said earlier, it's to make it look more "technical"; I'm sure the numbers on the faceplate bear little relation to any real output, ratios, volts, watts, or anything else. My Creek CAS 4040 has no numbers. Ya turns the volume knob clockwise and the volume goes up. When it reaches an acceptable level ya stops turning. Too loud? Ya turns the knob the other way. Easy-peasy. We don't need no stinking numbers. ;-) cheers, frank "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." -- Christopher Hitchens --- Original Message --- From: Mark Roberts Sent: February 3, 2012 2/3/12 To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Subject: Re: OT question for electronics geeks steve harley wrote: >on 2012-02-03 13:35 George Sinos wrote >> This discussion is very interesting. >> >> My guess is the numbers don't really correspond to any particular >> value. The designer probably thought the fairly technical numbers >> gave the front panel a feeling of "technicality." > > >my Yamaha RX-1100 (same brand as Rick's receiver, but about 20 years older) >has >a volume knob that goes ? 60 50 40 34 and by increasingly small increments >"up" >to 0, the maximum volume; i believe the lowest number i've used is 24, which >is >about 1/3 of the way "up" from ?; i interpret these as numbers as dB >attenuation from max (expressed as such they are clear without being negative) > >so Yamaha apparently has a tradition of indicating volume in dB; They aren't really indicating volume in dB, they are, as you noted, showing the amount of *attenuation* between pre-amp and power amp in dB. Very different thing. >yet i could >see marketing dweebs in the mid-90s or later expressing concern that topping >out at zero would hurt sales and thus a concept of a 0dB reference was >substituted for attenuation from max Yep, I can see that! >or it could be that as with many newer AV receivers, there is a calibration >tool included that can listen to the system and balance it, and if possible >set >0dB to the 85dB listening reference as mentioned above; You'd have to have a separate calibration for every input source (including internal ones like the AM and FM tuners) and use a known signal. And even then it wouldn't be accurate for tapes, records or CDs because there is so much variation between recording levels. Still, being able to trim input sources would be a good idea. -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
steve harley wrote: >on 2012-02-03 13:35 George Sinos wrote >> This discussion is very interesting. >> >> My guess is the numbers don't really correspond to any particular >> value. The designer probably thought the fairly technical numbers >> gave the front panel a feeling of "technicality." > > >my Yamaha RX-1100 (same brand as Rick's receiver, but about 20 years older) >has >a volume knob that goes ? 60 50 40 34 and by increasingly small increments >"up" >to 0, the maximum volume; i believe the lowest number i've used is 24, which >is >about 1/3 of the way "up" from ?; i interpret these as numbers as dB >attenuation from max (expressed as such they are clear without being negative) > >so Yamaha apparently has a tradition of indicating volume in dB; They aren't really indicating volume in dB, they are, as you noted, showing the amount of *attenuation* between pre-amp and power amp in dB. Very different thing. >yet i could >see marketing dweebs in the mid-90s or later expressing concern that topping >out at zero would hurt sales and thus a concept of a 0dB reference was >substituted for attenuation from max Yep, I can see that! >or it could be that as with many newer AV receivers, there is a calibration >tool included that can listen to the system and balance it, and if possible >set >0dB to the 85dB listening reference as mentioned above; You'd have to have a separate calibration for every input source (including internal ones like the AM and FM tuners) and use a known signal. And even then it wouldn't be accurate for tapes, records or CDs because there is so much variation between recording levels. Still, being able to trim input sources would be a good idea. -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
on 2012-02-03 13:35 George Sinos wrote This discussion is very interesting. My guess is the numbers don't really correspond to any particular value. The designer probably thought the fairly technical numbers gave the front panel a feeling of "technicality." my Yamaha RX-1100 (same brand as Rick's receiver, but about 20 years older) has a volume knob that goes ∞ 60 50 40 34 and by increasingly small increments "up" to 0, the maximum volume; i believe the lowest number i've used is 24, which is about 1/3 of the way "up" from ∞; i interpret these as numbers as dB attenuation from max (expressed as such they are clear without being negative) so Yamaha apparently has a tradition of indicating volume in dB; yet i could see marketing dweebs in the mid-90s or later expressing concern that topping out at zero would hurt sales and thus a concept of a 0dB reference was substituted for attenuation from max or it could be that as with many newer AV receivers, there is a calibration tool included that can listen to the system and balance it, and if possible set 0dB to the 85dB listening reference as mentioned above; i believe one or both of these is why the dial goes to +15dB -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
George Sinos wrote: >This discussion is very interesting. > >My guess is the numbers don't really correspond to any particular >value. The designer probably thought the fairly technical numbers >gave the front panel a feeling of "technicality." This has to be the case: Unless your input is a fixed waveform at a known amplitude there is literally no way to know where the 0dB setting on the volume knob should be. -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
This discussion is very interesting. My guess is the numbers don't really correspond to any particular value. The designer probably thought the fairly technical numbers gave the front panel a feeling of "technicality." Kind of like deciding to make the volume knob go from 1-11 rather than 1-10. It doesn't really mean much, other than you can expect the bigger numbers to be louder than the smaller numbers. In the years that I sold and repaired consumer sound equipment, turning any of the volume knobs past about 1 or 2 o'clock didn't do anything but add more distortion. The guys in the shop always used to laugh at the amps and receivers that came in for repair. The majority of them came in with blown output transistors. You could almost predict the Bass knob would be all the way up. The Treble knob would be all the way down. And the loudness feature would be turned on. Most of these people said they wanted their music to sound "good." The them, as long as it thumped real loud, it sounded good. George Sinos gsi...@gmail.com www.georgesphotos.net plus.georgesinos.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
>on 2012-02-03 12:10 Collin Brendemuehl wrote >> "0 db" is not an output. It is the amount of attenuation (resistance) >> that the volume knob puts in the electron path. It is equivalent to >> "full volume" and means nothing else -- it has no reference to what >> that maximum output might be. >. >sounds great except the knob goes to +15 ... Sounds like your electron flow is running in reverse. Flip the plug the other way in the socket and it will work correctly. Sincerely, Collin Brendemuehl "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose" -- Jim Elliott -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
on 2012-02-03 12:10 Collin Brendemuehl wrote "0 db" is not an output. It is the amount of attenuation (resistance) that the volume knob puts in the electron path. It is equivalent to "full volume" and means nothing else -- it has no reference to what that maximum output might be. sounds great except the knob goes to +15 ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
"0 db" is not an output. It is the amount of attenuation (resistance) that the volume knob puts in the electron path. It is equivalent to "full volume" and means nothing else -- it has no reference to what that maximum output might be. Therefore ... The more powerful the amplifier the greater the the "-n db" will be at the low end of the volume knob to indicate no output. Sincerely, Collin Brendemuehl "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose" -- Jim Elliott -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT question for electronics geeks
The 0dB marking is just an arbitrary reference on the unit and volume is marked in dB instead of "numbers" like 0 thru 10. jco -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Igor Roshchin Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 12:56 PM To: PDML@pdml.net Subject: OT question for electronics geeks Rick Womer wrote: >I have this nifty new receiver, which sounds great--a huge improvement >over my 38-year-old Pioneer. > >What puzzles me is the volume control: Minimum volume is -90dB (mute), >and maximum is +15dB. > >Huh? > >What is zero dB? Is it an arbitrary point? Is it linked to some >undisclosed property of the unit? > >I can tell you that 0dB is too loud to be in the room with using the >tuner, barely tolerable with a CD, and just a bit loud with an LP. > >Otherwise, the scale makes no sense to me. Typically, 0 dB represents 1 mW (milliWatt). The formula for power is L_dB= 10 log_10 * (P1 / P0), where P0=1 mW So, -90 dB - +15 dB would mean the range from 1 pW (picoWatt) [non-audible] to ~32 Watt. That is probably smaller than the max output of your tuner. What bothers me is that in this definition, 600 Ohm load is assumed. So, for the typical speaker load of 8 0hm , the same voltage will produce 75 times higher power.. But that would be way too much (32 Watt * 75)! But at the same time some sources suggest that 0 dB in case of audio tuners/amplifiers corresponds to the maximum output level with no noticable distortions. Then, I am not sure how the maximum output power relates to this. I can see two possibilities: 1) 15 dB corresponds to the max rated output power (say, 100 W). Then it would mean that you don't have distortions up to about 3 W, which is too small. 2) 0 dB corresponds to the max rated output power (say, 100 W). Then it would mean that the amplifier can drive up to 3200 W, which is way to much. So, I am confused by that specification. Igor -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
> From s...@trantor.komkon.org Fri Feb 3 12:55:53 2012 > Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 12:55:51 -0500 (EST) > From: Igor Roshchin > To: PDML@pdml.net > Subject: OT question for electronics geeks > > > > Rick Womer wrote: > > >I have this nifty new receiver, which sounds great--a huge improvement > >over my 38-year-old Pioneer. > > > >What puzzles me is the volume control: Minimum volume is -90dB (mute), > >and maximum is +15dB. > > > >Huh? > > > >What is zero dB? Is it an arbitrary point? Is it linked to some > >undisclosed property of the unit? > > > >I can tell you that 0dB is too loud to be in the room with using the > >tuner, barely tolerable with a CD, and just a bit loud with an LP. > > > >Otherwise, the scale makes no sense to me. > > > Typically, 0 dB represents 1 mW (milliWatt). > The formula for power is L_dB= 10 log_10 * (P1 / P0), where P0=1 mW > So, -90 dB - +15 dB would mean the range from 1 pW (picoWatt) > [non-audible] to ~32 Watt. That is probably smaller than the max output > of your tuner. > > What bothers me is that in this definition, 600 Ohm load is assumed. > So, for the typical speaker load of 8 0hm , the same voltage will > produce 75 times higher power.. But that would be way too much > (32 Watt * 75)! > > But at the same time some sources suggest that 0 dB in case of > audio tuners/amplifiers corresponds to the maximum output level with > no noticable distortions. > Then, I am not sure how the maximum output power relates to this. I can > see two possibilities: > 1) 15 dB corresponds to the max rated output power (say, 100 W). > Then it would mean that you don't have distortions up to about 3 W, > which is too small. > > 2) 0 dB corresponds to the max rated output power (say, 100 W). > Then it would mean that the amplifier can drive up to 3200 W, which is > way to much. > > So, I am confused by that specification. > > Igor > While doing some search, I found this definition on one of the forums: "0dB is supposed to be used as the "Reference Level", meaning that in room, at the listening position all speakers will produce average levels of 85dB SPL. This is relative to the speaker efficiency, the amplifiers sensitivity and the room acoustics." See this reference related to this definition: http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-technology/thx-reference-level/ Igor -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
On Feb 3, 2012, at 9:55 AM, Igor Roshchin wrote: >> >> What is zero dB? Is it an arbitrary point? Is it linked to some >> undisclosed property of the unit? >> > > Typically, 0 dB represents 1 mW (milliWatt). > The formula for power is L_dB= 10 log_10 * (P1 / P0), where P0=1 mW > So, -90 dB - +15 dB would mean the range from 1 pW (picoWatt) > [non-audible] to ~32 Watt. That is probably smaller than the max output > of your tuner. > snip > > 2) 0 dB corresponds to the max rated output power (say, 100 W). > Then it would mean that the amplifier can drive up to 3200 W, which is > way to much. > > So, I am confused by that specification. > > Igor Why not put a scope, or at least a DMM, on it and find out? Or, is it possible that Rick doesn't own an oscilloscope? -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
Yeah, well I have an amp that goes up to 11. That's louder than 10. One louder. Cheers, frank "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." -- Christopher Hitchens --- Original Message --- From: Rick Womer Sent: February 2, 2012 2/2/12 To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Subject: Re: OT question for electronics geeks Thanks, all. I suspect that Walt may have the answer, that 0dB is the point at which further power brings an increase in noise or distortion. Rick http://photo.net/photos/RickW - Original Message - From: Mark Roberts To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Cc: Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 6:57 PM Subject: Re: OT question for electronics geeks Rick Womer wrote: >I have this nifty new receiver, which sounds great--a huge improvement over my >38-year-old Pioneer. > >What puzzles me is the volume control: Minimum volume is -90dB (mute), and >maximum is +15dB. > >Huh? > >What is zero dB? Is it an arbitrary point? Is it linked to some undisclosed >property of the unit? > >I can tell you that 0dB is too loud to be in the room with using the tuner, >barely tolerable with a CD, and just a bit loud with an LP. > >Otherwise, the scale makes no sense to me. For all practical purposes, in this instance 0dB is an arbitrary number. They could be referencing the signal level between the pre-amp and power amp stages, at the output of the volume control. But even then we don't know what reference they're using for 0dB. The old standard was 0dBm = 0.7 Volts RMS into 600 Ohms. This was back in the days of vacuum tubes when everything was transformer coupled and power transfer was important to know. A more modern standard is dBv which is just 1 Volt RMS into the typical high impedance solid state input stage of an amplifier (loading is so slight at the impedances you're likely to encounter that you don't need to specify impedance precisely). But even that doesn't tell you anything useful unless you know the voltage gain of your power amp. Come to think of it, it doesn't tell you anything useful even if you *do* know ;-) So, for all practical purposes, in this instance 0dB is an arbitrary number. -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
Thanks, all. I suspect that Walt may have the answer, that 0dB is the point at which further power brings an increase in noise or distortion. Rick http://photo.net/photos/RickW - Original Message - From: Mark Roberts To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Cc: Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 6:57 PM Subject: Re: OT question for electronics geeks Rick Womer wrote: >I have this nifty new receiver, which sounds great--a huge improvement over my >38-year-old Pioneer. > >What puzzles me is the volume control: Minimum volume is -90dB (mute), and >maximum is +15dB. > >Huh? > >What is zero dB? Is it an arbitrary point? Is it linked to some undisclosed >property of the unit? > >I can tell you that 0dB is too loud to be in the room with using the tuner, >barely tolerable with a CD, and just a bit loud with an LP. > >Otherwise, the scale makes no sense to me. For all practical purposes, in this instance 0dB is an arbitrary number. They could be referencing the signal level between the pre-amp and power amp stages, at the output of the volume control. But even then we don't know what reference they're using for 0dB. The old standard was 0dBm = 0.7 Volts RMS into 600 Ohms. This was back in the days of vacuum tubes when everything was transformer coupled and power transfer was important to know. A more modern standard is dBv which is just 1 Volt RMS into the typical high impedance solid state input stage of an amplifier (loading is so slight at the impedances you're likely to encounter that you don't need to specify impedance precisely). But even that doesn't tell you anything useful unless you know the voltage gain of your power amp. Come to think of it, it doesn't tell you anything useful even if you *do* know ;-) So, for all practical purposes, in this instance 0dB is an arbitrary number. -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
Yup, I knew that. The sound energy changes by a factor of 10 for every 10 dB, and the ear perceives that as a doubling of loudness. The smallest change in sound intensity the ear can reliably discern is about 3 dB. Rick http://photo.net/photos/RickW - Original Message - From: Larry Colen To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Cc: Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 6:51 PM Subject: Re: OT question for electronics geeks dB is a logarithmic scale of ratios. 10 deciBell is one Bell, or a factor of 10. 3dB is a factor of two, or a stop. So if you have your camera to change settings by 1/3 stop, they change by about 1dB. Note, that depending on whether you're talking amplitude or power, 10dB could mean a factor of either 10 or 20, I never really did sort the math out on that. In the case of your new toy, I would presume that 0dB means full volume, without clipping any of the peaks that you are likely to see in normal listening. So my guess is that +15dB means pushing things into the red, in case you're playing music with less dynamic range, pure sine waves, or you don't mind a little distortion for when you just simply have to rattle your neighbor's windows. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com (from dos4est) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
Rick Womer wrote: >I have this nifty new receiver, which sounds great--a huge improvement over my >38-year-old Pioneer. > >What puzzles me is the volume control: Minimum volume is -90dB (mute), and >maximum is +15dB. > >Huh? > >What is zero dB? Is it an arbitrary point? Is it linked to some undisclosed >property of the unit? > >I can tell you that 0dB is too loud to be in the room with using the tuner, >barely tolerable with a CD, and just a bit loud with an LP. > >Otherwise, the scale makes no sense to me. For all practical purposes, in this instance 0dB is an arbitrary number. They could be referencing the signal level between the pre-amp and power amp stages, at the output of the volume control. But even then we don't know what reference they're using for 0dB. The old standard was 0dBm = 0.7 Volts RMS into 600 Ohms. This was back in the days of vacuum tubes when everything was transformer coupled and power transfer was important to know. A more modern standard is dBv which is just 1 Volt RMS into the typical high impedance solid state input stage of an amplifier (loading is so slight at the impedances you're likely to encounter that you don't need to specify impedance precisely). But even that doesn't tell you anything useful unless you know the voltage gain of your power amp. Come to think of it, it doesn't tell you anything useful even if you *do* know ;-) So, for all practical purposes, in this instance 0dB is an arbitrary number. -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
I'm pretty sure they don't rate receivers and amplifiers at absolute maximum output. Beyond "0 db" there's considerable degradation in the signal-to-noise ratio, so they rate them at some point below that. On 2/2/2012 5:47 PM, David Parsons wrote: Kind of hard for that to be the case when the dial goes to +15. On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Walt Gilbert wrote: If I'm not mistaken, the "0 db" point is the maximum rated output power. But that's a big "if". -- Walt On 2/2/2012 5:41 PM, Rick Womer wrote: I have this nifty new receiver, which sounds great--a huge improvement over my 38-year-old Pioneer. What puzzles me is the volume control: Minimum volume is -90dB (mute), and maximum is +15dB. Huh? What is zero dB? Is it an arbitrary point? Is it linked to some undisclosed property of the unit? I can tell you that 0dB is too loud to be in the room with using the tuner, barely tolerable with a CD, and just a bit loud with an LP. Otherwise, the scale makes no sense to me. Cheers, Rick http://photo.net/photos/RickW -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
On 2/2/2012 3:41 PM, Rick Womer wrote: I have this nifty new receiver, which sounds great--a huge improvement over my 38-year-old Pioneer. What puzzles me is the volume control: Minimum volume is -90dB (mute), and maximum is +15dB. Huh? What is zero dB? Is it an arbitrary point? Is it linked to some undisclosed property of the unit? I can tell you that 0dB is too loud to be in the room with using the tuner, barely tolerable with a CD, and just a bit loud with an LP. Otherwise, the scale makes no sense to me. dB is a logarithmic scale of ratios. 10 deciBell is one Bell, or a factor of 10. 3dB is a factor of two, or a stop. So if you have your camera to change settings by 1/3 stop, they change by about 1dB. Note, that depending on whether you're talking amplitude or power, 10dB could mean a factor of either 10 or 20, I never really did sort the math out on that. In the case of your new toy, I would presume that 0dB means full volume, without clipping any of the peaks that you are likely to see in normal listening. So my guess is that +15dB means pushing things into the red, in case you're playing music with less dynamic range, pure sine waves, or you don't mind a little distortion for when you just simply have to rattle your neighbor's windows. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com (from dos4est) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
Kind of hard for that to be the case when the dial goes to +15. On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Walt Gilbert wrote: > If I'm not mistaken, the "0 db" point is the maximum rated output power. > > But that's a big "if". > > -- Walt > > > On 2/2/2012 5:41 PM, Rick Womer wrote: >> >> I have this nifty new receiver, which sounds great--a huge improvement >> over my 38-year-old Pioneer. >> >> What puzzles me is the volume control: Minimum volume is -90dB (mute), >> and maximum is +15dB. >> >> Huh? >> >> What is zero dB? Is it an arbitrary point? Is it linked to some >> undisclosed property of the unit? >> >> I can tell you that 0dB is too loud to be in the room with using the >> tuner, barely tolerable with a CD, and just a bit loud with an LP. >> >> Otherwise, the scale makes no sense to me. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Rick >> http://photo.net/photos/RickW >> > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. -- David Parsons Photography http://www.davidparsonsphoto.com Aloha Photographer Photoblog http://alohaphotog.blogspot.com/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT question for electronics geeks
If I'm not mistaken, the "0 db" point is the maximum rated output power. But that's a big "if". -- Walt On 2/2/2012 5:41 PM, Rick Womer wrote: I have this nifty new receiver, which sounds great--a huge improvement over my 38-year-old Pioneer. What puzzles me is the volume control: Minimum volume is -90dB (mute), and maximum is +15dB. Huh? What is zero dB? Is it an arbitrary point? Is it linked to some undisclosed property of the unit? I can tell you that 0dB is too loud to be in the room with using the tuner, barely tolerable with a CD, and just a bit loud with an LP. Otherwise, the scale makes no sense to me. Cheers, Rick http://photo.net/photos/RickW -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
