Re: PayPal Beware - seller tracking number mandatory for your safety
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 11:58:09 -0500, you wrote: Mike Ignatiev wrote: The problem is that PayPal instituted this policy without notification. This is of course is a serious problem, no matter whether the policy change itself is good or bad. I guess I misread your original posting. Best, Mishka Mishka, they DID notify us before doing it. ann Ann - they did NOT notify me, and I did not issue any agreement to new terms of service. This change in Terms of Service took place Oct 16, which is just a few days ago. If you got a notification, could you copy me on the relevant portions with personal info deleted? I'd like to see what date it was sent, exactly what they said, and maybe determine why I was not notified. I didn't have the opportunity to opt out because I didn't know they were changing the TOS. Again, I don't have any problem with buyer protection. But now I have a $100 refund pending, through no fault of my own. It is the direct result of good-heartedly offering the buyer the option of low-cost, untracked, uninsured shipping. My wife sent the item to the buyer's verified address using the method paid for by the buyer, as we have done many times in the past. The only document we have is a debit card receipt showing we paid the post office a few bucks on such-and-such a day. If I had known a tracking number was required TO PROTECT MYSELF my wife would have shipped using a tracking number for sure. PayPal is going to cost me a hundred bucks refund, even though we performed our part of the transaction *exactly as specified by the buyer*. But I know better now... Maybe my next five auctions will have a $20 tracking fee surcharge until I recoup my losses. Let's see, that lens cap will cost you $3, plus $15.50 shipping, plus $20 tracking fee surcharge. Thank you very much for your business, and come back son... -- John Mustarde www.photolin.com
Re: PayPal Beware - seller tracking number mandatory for your safety
That is most interesting to me, because I just sold three bodies and a couple of lenses, as well as a protein skimmer, on eBay, some with written waivers of insured shipping from international buyers (dumb on their part, IMHO). Thankfully the feedback is all in - everything was received as it should have been - because if it hadn't been, I'd be a bit nervous right now. I also received no notification of the change in PayPal terms of service. Time to look at BidPay? Quoting John Mustarde [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Ann - they did NOT notify me, and I did not issue any agreement to new terms of service. This change in Terms of Service took place Oct 16, which is just a few days ago. - This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
Re: PayPal Beware - seller tracking number mandatory for your safety
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, John Mustarde wrote: Mishka, they DID notify us before doing it. ann Ann - they did NOT notify me, and I did not issue any agreement to new terms of service. This change in Terms of Service took place Oct 16, which is just a few days ago. IIRC, the notification came when I logged into my PayPal account a while ago. They always make you look at some ad for a service they offer before you go to your account, but this one time it was a new service agreement. I think I had to click ok before proceeding. chris
Re: PayPal Beware - seller tracking number mandatory for your safety
They sent out the notice about 90 days before the change went into effect. -- Chris Brogden wrote: On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, John Mustarde wrote: Mishka, they DID notify us before doing it. ann Ann - they did NOT notify me, and I did not issue any agreement to new terms of service. This change in Terms of Service took place Oct 16, which is just a few days ago. IIRC, the notification came when I logged into my PayPal account a while ago. They always make you look at some ad for a service they offer before you go to your account, but this one time it was a new service agreement. I think I had to click ok before proceeding. chris -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com You might as well accept people as they are, you are not going to be able to change them anyway.
Re: PayPal Beware - seller tracking number mandatory for your safety
This is totally stupid to blame a business for covering itself from online fraud liabilities! Guess what: if were there no fraud, there wouldn't have been this issue either. They provide a service, with nothing coming close in terms of cost and convenience. I suppose, they run into problems with dealing with fraud ($, PR, and so on) Do you want *them* to absorb it all, and give you a free lunch? The only viable alternative, from business pow is to raise the service charges, and I prefer their current approach a lot! best, Mishka
RE: PayPal Beware - seller tracking number mandatory for your safety
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, Len Paris wrote: I find it comforting to know that I, as a buyer, now have some protection through eBay and PayPal. I find it interesting that Paul protests so much. It makes it impossible to sell items in person to people who pay with PayPal (unless you want me to ship the item a couple of miles away... where it would be easier to just bike or drive it over). alex
Re: PayPal Beware - seller tracking number mandatory for your safety
The problem is that PayPal instituted this policy without notification. This is of course is a serious problem, no matter whether the policy change itself is good or bad. I guess I misread your original posting. Best, Mishka
Re: PayPal Beware - seller tracking number mandatory for your safety
John, PAYPAL (Which is, after all, ebay) DID notify the sellers - they updated their user agreement and told us all to read it and agree again -- I can't remember exactly when this was, and I'm as sloppy as the next about reading fine print, but they did tell us ahead of time. I get annoyed at Paypal too, but can't complain about this annsan
Re: PayPal Beware - seller tracking number mandatory for your safety
Mike Ignatiev wrote: The problem is that PayPal instituted this policy without notification. This is of course is a serious problem, no matter whether the policy change itself is good or bad. I guess I misread your original posting. Best, Mishka Mishka, they DID notify us before doing it. ann
Re: PayPal Beware - seller tracking number mandatory for your safety
Are you sure that you didn't just blow the notice off without reading it? Len --- From: John Mustarde [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: PayPal Beware - seller tracking number mandatory for your safety Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 05:30:58 -0700 On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:26:14 -0500, you wrote: Why would any seller have a problem with it? Just make sure you add the extra postage for the tracking # for all your final amounts. This way the buyer pays for the added peace of mind. I think it's a good move, for both, the seller and the buyer. And, of course, for Ebay's PR. Just make sure you read the terms. Mishka The problem is that PayPal instituted this policy without notification. So I was unaware I needed a tracking number to protect myself in instances where they buyer refused to pay extra for insurance. Yes, it is good protection for buyers, but the lack of notification to sellers created a huge hidden risk to sellers. So, in one case, I offered low shipping of 4.50, insurance optional for 1.50. The buyer declined the insurance. So the package was sent cheapest method, no insurance, and now PayPal says I have to refund this guys's money because he says he didn't get the item. Assuming the guy is telling the truth, and the package is lost or significantly delayed, to me its a simple case of tough luck, buddy - you should have paid the extra buck fifty for insurance.. Case closed. The solution for me is to up the shipping charges and protect myself completely at the buyer's expense. Now I know why some Ebayers' charge fifteen bucks plus a three dollar handling fee to mail a one ounce lens cap. -- John Mustarde www.photolin.com _ Say goodbye to busy signals and slow downloads with a high-speed Internet connection! Prices start at less than $1 a day average. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.)
RE: PayPal Beware - seller tracking number mandatory for your safety
I pretty much doubt that. I regularly do business with a couple of folks locally that use PayPal that way. If there is no report of non-receipt of the item, then there is no tracking number required. Len --- * There's no place like 127.0.0.1 From: alex wetmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: PayPal Beware - seller tracking number mandatory for your safety Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 06:53:27 -0800 (PST) On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, Len Paris wrote: I find it comforting to know that I, as a buyer, now have some protection through eBay and PayPal. I find it interesting that Paul protests so much. It makes it impossible to sell items in person to people who pay with PayPal (unless you want me to ship the item a couple of miles away... where it would be easier to just bike or drive it over). alex _ Share holiday photos without swamping your Inbox. Get MSN Extra Storage now! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es
RE: PayPal Beware - seller tracking number mandatory for your safety
Unless you implement your own online tracking system! Seriously, are there rules defining which delivery services are viable? If not then it would be easy to implement a simple web page which lets them type in a tracking number and says the goods have been delivered! Anyone even slightly dodgy could get arount the rules if that were the case!! -Original Message- From: alex wetmore [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 26 November 2003 14:53 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: PayPal Beware - seller tracking number mandatory for your safety On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, Len Paris wrote: I find it comforting to know that I, as a buyer, now have some protection through eBay and PayPal. I find it interesting that Paul protests so much. It makes it impossible to sell items in person to people who pay with PayPal (unless you want me to ship the item a couple of miles away... where it would be easier to just bike or drive it over). alex
Re: PayPal Beware - seller tracking number mandatory for your safety
Why would any seller have a problem with it? Just make sure you add the extra postage for the tracking # for all your final amounts. This way the buyer pays for the added peace of mind. I think it's a good move, for both, the seller and the buyer. And, of course, for Ebay's PR. Just make sure you read the terms. Mishka
Re: PayPal Beware - seller tracking number mandatory for your safety
- Original Message - From: mishka Subject: Re: PayPal Beware - seller tracking number mandatory for your safety Why would any seller have a problem with it? Just make sure you add the extra postage for the tracking # for all your final amounts. This way the buyer pays for the added peace of mind. I think it's a good move, for both, the seller and the buyer. And, of course, for Ebay's PR. Just make sure you read the terms. Three problems. 1) It adds to the cost of doing business. In the course of rounding out my equipment, I have made a lot of small ebay purchases over the past couple of years, and have enjoyed the convenience of paypal. Extra shipping and handling costs to get a tracking number can add significantly to the cost of a small ticket item. 2) It is a sad commentary when two people can't even make an honest transaction without one party trying to screw the other one. 3) There is no impartiality in the system. The seller is presumed to be attempting to defraud the buyer right from the start. It makes one wonder if Paypal just got bought by UPS. William Robb
Re: PayPal Beware - seller tracking number mandatory for your safety
Whether or not you use paypal, it sure is a good thing to use tracking slips - it only costs the buyer another 50 cents - and if you tell them up front you are doing it there should be no problem. I only insist on the buyer paying insurance if I'm mailing something breakable, though. The tracking slips have been a useful way of keeping info on buyers that I can get at even if the computer is asleep or cranky. I make a dup label with the number and item name on it. Once bitten by someone saying they had never gotten the first class mail letter that had a scarf in it, I felt safer to do that. Too bad we can't use them for mail to Canada. annsan the cautious
Re: PayPal Beware - seller tracking number mandatory for your safety
Well, anything I sell via Ebay is shipped insured. So it automatically has a tracking number. Therefore, this is a non-problem to me. Shipping insurance does not protect the buyer, it protects the shipper. -- John Mustarde wrote: I just found out PayPal recently modified their Terms of Service (October 16). Unknown to me, they created a loophole which allows them to take MY money and give it to a crafty and fraudulent buyer, calling it a refund. Here's the deal: any buyer can simply email PayPal and say they did not receive the item. PayPal will automatically refund the money, taking it out of my PayPal funds (or debiting my bank account or credit card on file), unless I can provide a tracking number for the item the buyer says he didn't get. Problem is, some items don't get tracking numbers. Maybe the buyer chose to avoid paying for insurance and tracking, maybe the package was just sent cheapest method without tracking, maybe it got delayed in transit past PayPal's 30 day reporting window, whatever. So 7 days after the guy reports he didn't get the item, PayPal takes the money from the seller and gives it to the buyer - unless the seller comes up with a tracking number. There are no exceptions allowed. There's not even a provision for explanation - PayPal's response form will not even activate unless a tracking number is filled in. Beware of PayPal. This new service is called Buyer Protection Plan and if you are a Verified Premier Member you are now participating. You were automatically opted in whether you wanted to provide this service or not. So do not, absolutely do not send any items paid by PayPal unless you have a tracking number. If you don't have a tracking number, the buyer can just say I didn't get the item and PayPal gives them your money. And of course they get to keep whatever you sent them. PayPal's decision is final. No appeals. Needless to say, I am no longer using PayPal. -- John Mustarde www.photolin.com -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com You might as well accept people as they are, you are not going to be able to change them anyway.
