Re: OT: Journey of Man
Hi! Interestingly, in Boris' first site reference, we see several branches go out from the origin in East Central Africa and come to a stop. While all the other branches were doing their thing, these particular end points were just sitting there, cooking! And making variations on a theme, as you suggest? Just to set the record straight. The first sight reference was posted by Bob W, not me. Though our names start with the same letter :). Boris
RE: OT: Journey of Man
H. Floresiensis is very, very, very different though. The weight of informed opinion & evidence seems to suggest it is not a H. Sapiens. It will be an interesting story to follow, whatever the outcome. -- Cheers, Bob > -Original Message- > From: John Forbes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 02 May 2005 20:18 > To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net > Subject: Re: OT: Journey of Man > > The Wa Tutsi, the Wa Ndorobo, the Congo pygmy and the > Hottentot are all > examples of homo sapiens, despite being very different from > each other. > And they are all from one continent. > > John
Re: OT: Journey of Man
Indeed. They were adapting. The forests dwellers became small, the plains dwellers became tall, and the desert dwellers developed buttocks that can only be likened to the humps on a camel. They didn't need chairs. John On Mon, 02 May 2005 20:57:39 +0100, Keith Whaley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Interestingly, in Boris' first site reference, we see several branches go out from the origin in East Central Africa and come to a stop. While all the other branches were doing their thing, these particular end points were just sitting there, cooking! And making variations on a theme, as you suggest? Probably! keith whaley John Forbes wrote: The Wa Tutsi, the Wa Ndorobo, the Congo pygmy and the Hottentot are all examples of homo sapiens, despite being very different from each other. And they are all from one continent. John On Mon, 02 May 2005 16:29:25 +0100, Bob W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: For anybody who's interested, and can get British TV Channel 4, there is a programme on tonight at 9pm about Homo Floresiensis, the so-called Hobbit they found on Flores Island last year. http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/S/science/body/hobbit.html -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/2005
Re: OT: Journey of Man
Interestingly, in Boris' first site reference, we see several branches go out from the origin in East Central Africa and come to a stop. While all the other branches were doing their thing, these particular end points were just sitting there, cooking! And making variations on a theme, as you suggest? Probably! keith whaley John Forbes wrote: The Wa Tutsi, the Wa Ndorobo, the Congo pygmy and the Hottentot are all examples of homo sapiens, despite being very different from each other. And they are all from one continent. John On Mon, 02 May 2005 16:29:25 +0100, Bob W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: For anybody who's interested, and can get British TV Channel 4, there is a programme on tonight at 9pm about Homo Floresiensis, the so-called Hobbit they found on Flores Island last year. http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/S/science/body/hobbit.html
Re: OT: Journey of Man
The Wa Tutsi, the Wa Ndorobo, the Congo pygmy and the Hottentot are all examples of homo sapiens, despite being very different from each other. And they are all from one continent. John On Mon, 02 May 2005 16:29:25 +0100, Bob W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: For anybody who's interested, and can get British TV Channel 4, there is a programme on tonight at 9pm about Homo Floresiensis, the so-called Hobbit they found on Flores Island last year. http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/S/science/body/hobbit.html Not everyone is convinced that it's a new species: http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,1388500,00.html Cheers, Bob Absolutely right! There are a lot of conclusions able to be drawn from seeing how that original group spread out, who stayed where and on and on... I found it fascinating! keith -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/2005
Re: OT: Journey of Man
I'm much impressed with the ideas set forth in the Guardian article. Given that I read it first, when I went back and read the 'channel 4' description, I was less inclined to believe what they set forth.. I will be following the story, as time goes on. Thanks, keith Bob W wrote: For anybody who's interested, and can get British TV Channel 4, there is a programme on tonight at 9pm about Homo Floresiensis, the so-called Hobbit they found on Flores Island last year. http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/S/science/body/hobbit.html Not everyone is convinced that it's a new species: http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,1388500,00.html Cheers, Bob Absolutely right! There are a lot of conclusions able to be drawn from seeing how that original group spread out, who stayed where and on and on... I found it fascinating! keith
RE: OT: Journey of Man
For anybody who's interested, and can get British TV Channel 4, there is a programme on tonight at 9pm about Homo Floresiensis, the so-called Hobbit they found on Flores Island last year. http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/S/science/body/hobbit.html Not everyone is convinced that it's a new species: http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,1388500,00.html Cheers, Bob > > Absolutely right! > There are a lot of conclusions able to be drawn from seeing > how that original group spread out, who stayed where and on and on... > I found it fascinating! > > keith > > > >
Re: OT: Journey of Man
Boris Liberman wrote: Hi! [...] Keith, I did not think of this in terms of population percentage left after the disaster. I was thinking more in terms of how little people came to give life to all this multitude of races, skin colors, characters, appearances, and so on... This is what amazes me - just 10,000 being the basis of all the folks that populate this globe today... Boris Absolutely right! There are a lot of conclusions able to be drawn from seeing how that original group spread out, who stayed where and on and on... I found it fascinating! keith
Re: OT: Journey of Man
Hi! Yes, but you must figure there might only have been 20,000 people on earth, total, at that time! That there were only 10,000 people left is not quite as much a disaster as you might imagine, from one standpoint. I suspect you may have lost something like 50% of the population then. Had there been 150,000 people on earth then, the loss would have been HUGE! An 87% population loss! A big hit to the gene pool! The whole thing is amazing, truth be known... Very, very interesting indeed. Keith, I did not think of this in terms of population percentage left after the disaster. I was thinking more in terms of how little people came to give life to all this multitude of races, skin colors, characters, appearances, and so on... This is what amazes me - just 10,000 being the basis of all the folks that populate this globe today... Boris
Re: OT: Journey of Man
I agree on fascinating! I've bookmarked it for future viewing. Boris Liberman wrote: Hi! Many of you are probably as fascinated as I am by human origins, so I'd like to post this animation which reconstructs the spread of people out of Africa, according to current theory. It seems to match the paths traced by Stephen Oppenheimer in his recent book. Warning: if you think it all started 6,000 years ago underneath an apple tree you might not want to look at this. http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/ Very fascinating although very un-pentaxian :). There is one thing that strikes me as particularly amazing. I've also seen something like this on TV in one of the popular science shows... So there was this volcano eruption that left order of 10,000 people on Earth. From these 10,000 the rest evolved... When I stop and think of it, it just amazes me. Don't you agree? > > Boris Yes, but you must figure there might only have been 20,000 people on earth, total, at that time! That there were only 10,000 people left is not quite as much a disaster as you might imagine, from one standpoint. I suspect you may have lost something like 50% of the population then. Had there been 150,000 people on earth then, the loss would have been HUGE! An 87% population loss! A big hit to the gene pool! The whole thing is amazing, truth be known... Very, very interesting indeed. keith whaley
Re: OT: Journey of Man
Hi! I dunno about you guys (n gals) but I come from a comet :-) Where do you hide your second head, messier Startiblafast (spelling)? Slartibartfast only had one head. Zaphod Beeblebrox had two heads (although I believe only one shows up in the forthcoming movie). Like I said - my spelling is (always) questionable :). Boris
Re: OT: Journey of Man
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:46:35 -0400, frank theriault wrote: > -frank, off to find more aluminium foil You need to ground the aluminum foil for it to provide a useful level of protection. :-) TTYL, DougF KG4LMZ
Re: OT: Journey of Man
On 4/23/05, Cotty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I dunno about you guys (n gals) but I come from a comet :-) Are you the guy who keeps beaming radio waves directly into my brain? -frank, off to find more aluminium foil -- "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson
Re: OT: Journey of Man
Boris Liberman mused: > > Hi! > > > On 23/4/05, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed: > > > > I dunno about you guys (n gals) but I come from a comet :-) > > Where do you hide your second head, messier Startiblafast (spelling)? Slartibartfast only had one head. Zaphod Beeblebrox had two heads (although I believe only one shows up in the forthcoming movie).
Re: OT: Journey of Man
- Original Message - From: "Cotty" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I dunno about you guys (n gals) but I come from a comet :-) The last survivor of Shoemaker-Levi. Which goes a long way to express his favourite exclamation "Jumping Jupiter"...:-) Jostein
Re: OT: Journey of Man
On 24/4/05, Boris Liberman, discombobulated, unleashed: >Where do you hide your second head, messier Startiblafast (spelling)? I gave it away. ;-) Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
Re: OT: Journey of Man
- Original Message - From: "Cotty" Subject: Re: OT: Journey of Man On 23/4/05, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed: I dunno about you guys (n gals) but I come from a comet :-) That what you call fast wimmen in your part of the world? WW
Re: OT: Journey of Man
Hi! On 23/4/05, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed: I dunno about you guys (n gals) but I come from a comet :-) Where do you hide your second head, messier Startiblafast (spelling)? Boris
Re: OT: Journey of Man
On 23/4/05, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed: I dunno about you guys (n gals) but I come from a comet :-) Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
RE: OT: Journey of Man
> > http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/ > > Very fascinating although very un-pentaxian :). It's entirely on-topic. Many of the descendants of those people settled in Japan where they learnt to make Pentax cameras for the benefit of their travelling companions who settled in other parts of the world. > > There is one thing that strikes me as particularly amazing. > I've also seen something like this on TV in one of the > popular science shows... > > So there was this volcano eruption that left order of 10,000 > people on Earth. From these 10,000 the rest evolved... When I > stop and think of it, it just amazes me. Don't you agree? > the bottleneck caused by the migration across the Bab al Mendeb was even smaller. It amazes me to learn how often the human race was on the verge of extinction during its early history. Even within Africa, where the genetic diversity is greatest, it is still significantly less than for other related species such as chimpanzees and gorillas. This suggests that there were some spectacular population crashes back in the old days. You might enjoy the book which was the basis of that map, and probably also of the TV programme you saw: "Out of Eden", by Stephen Oppenheimer. Bob
Re: OT: Journey of Man
Hi! Many of you are probably as fascinated as I am by human origins, so I'd like to post this animation which reconstructs the spread of people out of Africa, according to current theory. It seems to match the paths traced by Stephen Oppenheimer in his recent book. Warning: if you think it all started 6,000 years ago underneath an apple tree you might not want to look at this. http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/ Very fascinating although very un-pentaxian :). There is one thing that strikes me as particularly amazing. I've also seen something like this on TV in one of the popular science shows... So there was this volcano eruption that left order of 10,000 people on Earth. From these 10,000 the rest evolved... When I stop and think of it, it just amazes me. Don't you agree? Boris
Re: OT: Journey of Man
Hi, Sunday, April 17, 2005, 11:53:32 PM, John wrote: > How exactly do we know what people (who have left no written record) > thought about psychology a million or so years ago? > These palaeontologists are clever chaps to have worked all this out. Or > highly imaginitive. I think in this case Greywolf was referring to more recent humans, who left paintings on caves, decorated tools, jewellery etc. These palaeontologists appear to be clever _and_ highly imaginative. -- Cheers, Bob
Re: OT: Journey of Man
How exactly do we know what people (who have left no written record) thought about psychology a million or so years ago? These palaeontologists are clever chaps to have worked all this out. Or highly imaginitive. John On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 14:58:39 -0400, Graywolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: And that pre-historic man was far more advanced than was ever before believed. In fact in some areas (medicine/psychology) more advanced than the 18-19th century folks who formed those theories. graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com "Idiot Proof" <==> "Expert Proof" --- Bob W wrote: Hi, Many of you are probably as fascinated as I am by human origins, so I'd like to post this animation which reconstructs the spread of people out of Africa, according to current theory. It seems to match the paths traced by Stephen Oppenheimer in his recent book. Warning: if you think it all started 6,000 years ago underneath an apple tree you might not want to look at this. http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/ -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.15 - Release Date: 16/04/2005
Re: OT: Journey of Man
Hi, I meant to answer this bit before, but hit the Enter key too early: >> I don't know about Lucy (may be mixed up there) but he definately >> said remains of H.R. were found in South Asia dating to 2.5 mya. >> Does not seem to be any major disputes about that. On the contrary. Rudgeley reports somebody else making this claim. If there are no major disputes about it, it's because nobody believes it. This claim, and the other claim about America and Argentina, are in a chapter called "Dawn Stones or False Dawn". The chapter is about controversies from long ago. The India claim is about supposed tools dated to about 2mya. This is long before the accepted date of the evolution of Homo Erectus/Ergaster, who is thought to have been the first hominid out of Africa. If they are tools then they must have been made by another type of hominid, but there is no other evidence. The consensus seems to be that most of the supposed artefacts are naturally occuring pieces of stone. Those that are accepted as artefacts have been dated at 0.5mya, which is within the accepted time period for Erectus in India. -- Cheers, Bob
Re: OT: Journey of Man
Bob W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >But, who knows what could be found tomorrow? Who would have predicted >Homo Floresiensis? Check out Richard Dawkins' latest, "The Ancestor's Tale". Fascinating, but very readable, stuff. The latest evidence seems to support not one but many migrations out of Africa. Probably two and possibly three or more. This would mean that mankind branched into different groups, which then reunited thousands of years later. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: OT: Journey of Man
Hi, Sunday, April 17, 2005, 9:12:17 PM, Graywolf wrote: > Well, one of the problems with library books is you do not have > them to hand to check your references. More inline... Luckily, I do have the book to hand. [...] > I don't know about Lucy (may be mixed up there) but he definately > said remains of H.R. were found in South Asia dating to 2.5 mya. > Does not seem to be any major disputes about that. [...] > Argentina. Mentioned in the book. No one but the discoverer seems > to belive it. Personally, I see no problem with man originating in > SA migrating to Asia and dying out in America. No real evidence that > it did happen that way. But I believe that is the theory of the > evolution of the horse, so it does not seem impossible. I've found the reference in the book. Rudgeley is talking about the ideas of one Florentino Ameghino, who died in 1911. He dated some of the stone artefacts he found to between 3 and 5mya. I suspect his dating techniques were a little less accurate than those used today. He mentions him as part of a discussion about more modern claims for Erectus artefacts in Siberia, which the discoverer dated controversially to between 1.5 and 2mya. Various people also suggest that there may have been movement between Siberia and America at various times long before the conventionally accepted dates. However, these claims are very, very controversial and don't seem to be supported by any very strong evidence. But, who knows what could be found tomorrow? Who would have predicted Homo Floresiensis? -- Cheers, Bob
Re: OT: Journey of Man
Well, one of the problems with library books is you do not have them to hand to check your references. More inline... graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com "Idiot Proof" <==> "Expert Proof" --- Bob W wrote: Hi, Sunday, April 17, 2005, 7:58:39 PM, Graywolf wrote: Hum...? Wasn't it you, Bob, who mentioned the book "Secret Civilizations of the Stone Age" here on the list? Yes, it was. I got a copy via inter-library loan awhile back. I hope you enjoyed it. Yes, I did. It points out that most of the theories of the origination of man have been turned topsey-turvy in in the last few years. I'm not sure about 'most'. All the same, a lot has happened in recent years. We can expect that to continue as more evidence turns up. One thing that does seem well established now is that modern humans (us) arose in Africa. That there were pre-humans in Asia 2.5 million years ago (1.5 million years before Lucy in Africa). Does Rudgeley say that in the book? I don't remember it. Your timescale is mixed up, anyway. Lucy was about 3.5mya. Homo Erectus is thought to be the first species of H. to have left Africa. They were around from about 1.5 - 0.5mya. I don't know about Lucy (may be mixed up there) but he definately said remains of H.R. were found in South Asia dating to 2.5 mya. Does not seem to be any major disputes about that. There is also some slight evidence (that no one wants to believe) that there may have be pre-humans in South America 4 million years ago (boy does that upset all the theories). I've never heard that idea from a 'proper' source. It doesn't make sense in the rest of the context of that period. It probably deserves about as much attention as a claim to have invented a perpetual motion device. Argentina. Mentioned in the book. No one but the discoverer seems to belive it. Personally, I see no problem with man originating in SA migrating to Asia and dying out in America. No real evidence that it did happen that way. But I believe that is the theory of the evolution of the horse, so it does not seem impossible. Also that our current civilization seems to have moved from Europe to the middle east and back again rather than beginning suddenly in the middle east as previously supposed. Nobody supposes that it began suddenly. I don't remember the idea about it moving from Europe. Sounds unlikely, but it may be that agriculture arose independently in more places than was previously realised. And that pre-historic man was far more advanced than was ever before believed. In fact in some areas (medicine/psychology) more advanced than the 18-19th century folks who formed those theories. Yes, they're starting to get more credit for being the same as us than they used to. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.15 - Release Date: 4/16/2005
Re: OT: Journey of Man
Hi, Sunday, April 17, 2005, 7:58:39 PM, Graywolf wrote: > Hum...? > Wasn't it you, Bob, who mentioned the book "Secret Civilizations > of the Stone Age" here on the list? Yes, it was. > I got a copy via inter-library loan awhile back. I hope you enjoyed it. > It points out > that most of the theories of the origination of man have been turned > topsey-turvy in in the last few years. I'm not sure about 'most'. All the same, a lot has happened in recent years. We can expect that to continue as more evidence turns up. One thing that does seem well established now is that modern humans (us) arose in Africa. > That there were pre-humans in > Asia 2.5 million years ago (1.5 million years before Lucy in > Africa). Does Rudgeley say that in the book? I don't remember it. Your timescale is mixed up, anyway. Lucy was about 3.5mya. Homo Erectus is thought to be the first species of H. to have left Africa. They were around from about 1.5 - 0.5mya. > There is also some slight evidence (that no one wants to > believe) that there may have be pre-humans in South America 4 > million years ago (boy does that upset all the theories). I've never heard that idea from a 'proper' source. It doesn't make sense in the rest of the context of that period. It probably deserves about as much attention as a claim to have invented a perpetual motion device. > Also that > our current civilization seems to have moved from Europe to the > middle east and back again rather than beginning suddenly in the > middle east as previously supposed. Nobody supposes that it began suddenly. I don't remember the idea about it moving from Europe. Sounds unlikely, but it may be that agriculture arose independently in more places than was previously realised. > And that pre-historic man was > far more advanced than was ever before believed. In fact in some > areas (medicine/psychology) more advanced than the 18-19th century > folks who formed those theories. Yes, they're starting to get more credit for being the same as us than they used to. -- Cheers, Bob
Re: OT: Journey of Man
Hum...? Wasn't it you, Bob, who mentioned the book "Secret Civilizations of the Stone Age" here on the list? I got a copy via inter-library loan awhile back. It points out that most of the theories of the origination of man have been turned topsey-turvy in in the last few years. That there were pre-humans in Asia 2.5 million years ago (1.5 million years before Lucy in Africa). There is also some slight evidence (that no one wants to believe) that there may have be pre-humans in South America 4 million years ago (boy does that upset all the theories). Also that our current civilization seems to have moved from Europe to the middle east and back again rather than beginning suddenly in the middle east as previously supposed. And that pre-historic man was far more advanced than was ever before believed. In fact in some areas (medicine/psychology) more advanced than the 18-19th century folks who formed those theories. graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com "Idiot Proof" <==> "Expert Proof" --- Bob W wrote: Hi, Many of you are probably as fascinated as I am by human origins, so I'd like to post this animation which reconstructs the spread of people out of Africa, according to current theory. It seems to match the paths traced by Stephen Oppenheimer in his recent book. Warning: if you think it all started 6,000 years ago underneath an apple tree you might not want to look at this. http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.15 - Release Date: 4/16/2005
Re: OT: Journey of Man
Fascinating. Thanks. John On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 01:47:54 +0800, David Savage <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Very interesting Bob. Thanks for sharing. Dave S On 4/17/05, Bob W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi, Many of you are probably as fascinated as I am by human origins, so I'd like to post this animation which reconstructs the spread of people out of Africa, according to current theory. It seems to match the paths traced by Stephen Oppenheimer in his recent book. Warning: if you think it all started 6,000 years ago underneath an apple tree you might not want to look at this. http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/ -- Cheers, Bob -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.13 - Release Date: 16/04/2005
Re: OT: Journey of Man
Very interesting Bob. Thanks for sharing. Dave S On 4/17/05, Bob W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > > Many of you are probably as fascinated as I am by human origins, so > I'd like to post this animation which reconstructs the spread of > people out of Africa, according to current theory. It seems to match > the paths traced by Stephen Oppenheimer in his recent book. > > Warning: if you think it all started 6,000 years ago underneath an > apple tree you might not want to look at this. > > http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/ > > -- > Cheers, > Bob > >
