Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Adam Maas]

Mark Roberts wrote:
> David Savage wrote:
> 
> 
>>At 06:47 AM 29/09/2006, Mark Roberts wrote:
>>
>>>Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:
>>>
>So are you guys saying that no wide Pentax wide
>is going to work that good with the new K10D..How about long lens ?
>

This is horsepucky. The DA12-24, DA14, FA20-35, FA20, DA21, FA28, and
FA35 are all excellent. The DA16-45 is quite good too.

>>>
>>>Wait until the 16-50/2.8 is available later this year!
>>
>>Don't get ahead of yourself Mark. It's still only 2006.
> 
> 
> Well they *say* it will be available by the end of this year. (But,
> yes, I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't show up in the shops until
> early 2007... not that that's far off.)
>  

Mark,

At the actual announcement last week, they said March 2007 for the 16-50 
and 50-135.

-Adam


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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Mark Roberts]

David Savage wrote:

>At 06:47 AM 29/09/2006, Mark Roberts wrote:
>>Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:
>> >> So are you guys saying that no wide Pentax wide
>> >> is going to work that good with the new K10D..How about long lens ?
>> >>
>> >
>> > This is horsepucky. The DA12-24, DA14, FA20-35, FA20, DA21, FA28, and
>> > FA35 are all excellent. The DA16-45 is quite good too.
>> >
>>Wait until the 16-50/2.8 is available later this year!
>
>Don't get ahead of yourself Mark. It's still only 2006.

Well they *say* it will be available by the end of this year. (But,
yes, I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't show up in the shops until
early 2007... not that that's far off.)
 
-- 
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www.robertstech.com
412-687-2835





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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Mark Roberts]

Cotty wrote:

>I have a complaint.

Sorry, this is "getting hit on the head" lessons here.
 
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RE: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Shel Belinkoff]

I'm just starting to use mine more frequently with the DS.  It seems OK
thus far, but I've not used it enough to get a real good feel for it, and
its quality, in all situations.

FWIW, I found the K24/2.8 to be an under appreciated jewel with the DS (for
a while it was my most used lens with the camera), and the K35/2.0 is also
a fine choice with the camera.

Shel



> [Original Message]
> From: Antti-Pekka Virjonen 

> How about the K 18/3.5 with digital?



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RE: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Antti-Pekka Virjonen]

How about the K 18/3.5 with digital?



Antti-Pekka Virjonen

Computec Oy
R&D Turku

www.computec.fi


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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Kostas Kavoussanakis]

On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, Ralf R. Radermacher wrote:

> J. C. O'Connell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> You should try the SMCK series K28/2.5, K24/3.5, K20/4, and K35/3.5.
>
> They're just rather difficult to come by. I have the 4/20 mm in the M
> version and I'm very fond of it.

If you have gone digital you have plenty of modern options for WA. 
Just sell the 15 (should be extremely easy) and reinvest; the 14 is 
optimised for digital and half a stop faster that the 15.

Kostas

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[mike wilson]

> 
> From: Cotty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2006/09/28 Thu PM 10:20:44 GMT
> To: "pentax list" 
> Subject: Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?
> 
> On 28/9/06, Tom C, discombobulated, unleashed:
> 
> >That certainly comes across us 1) as rude, 2) as simplistic, and 3) do you 
> >really honestly expect that a person cannot both like a product line and 
> >have a few complaints about it at the same time?
> 
> I have a complaint.

Persevere with the ointment.


-
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RE: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Jens Bladt]

In my experience the FA 2.0 24mm and the A 2.8 20mm are excellent lenses.
The M 2.8 35 mm and A 28mm are certainly under achievers.
I might help you - I take the 15mm off your hands for 200 USD :-)

regards

Jens Bladt
http://www.jensbladt.dk
+45 56 63 77 11
+45 23 43 85 77
Skype: jensbladt248

-Oprindelig meddelelse-
Fra: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] vegne af
Ralf R. Radermacher
Sendt: 28. september 2006 23:16
Til: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Emne: Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?


Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> What about the 2/28, 2/35 and 2.8/14 DA? All are excellent lenses, and
> two of them are currently available.

If I had that much money to spend I'd buy a Fuji S5 and the lenses that
go with it.

*duck*

Ralf

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private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de
manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Adam Maas"
Subject: Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?



>> I use Pentax because of the Nikon F3HP.
>>

>
> Eh?
>
> That's one of the two bodies that keeps me using my Nikon kit (the 
> other
> is the FA, my EM, which I love, is essentially identical to half the
> M-series bodies).

I didn't like the placement of the LCD in the viewfinder, and for some 
reason, my F3 liked to divest itself of lenses for no apparent reason.
I also didn't like the F4 as an upgrade path

I liked the FM2 and the FE, but I didn't have much to do with the FA.

I always liked the FG, but they were so darned unreliable.
The EM was a tough little sucker.

William Robb 



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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Adam Maas]

William Robb wrote:
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Tom C"
> Subject: Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?
> 
> 
> 
>> I also generally thought the answer would be obvious.  I use Pentax 
>> gear
>> because it's what I have, or I use Pentax gear because I can't afford 
>> to
>> switch to something else, or I use Pentax gear because my grandmother 
>> gave
>> it to me as a gift. :-)
> 
> I use Pentax because of the Nikon F3HP.
> 
> William Robb
> 

Eh?

That's one of the two bodies that keeps me using my Nikon kit (the other 
is the FA, my EM, which I love, is essentially identical to half the 
M-series bodies).

-Adam


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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[David Savage]

At 06:47 AM 29/09/2006, Mark Roberts wrote:
>Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:
> >> So are you guys saying that no wide Pentax wide
> >> is going to work that good with the new K10D..How about long lens ?
> >>
> >
> > This is horsepucky. The DA12-24, DA14, FA20-35, FA20, DA21, FA28, and
> > FA35 are all excellent. The DA16-45 is quite good too.
> >
>Wait until the 16-50/2.8 is available later this year!

Don't get ahead of yourself Mark. It's still only 2006.

Dave 


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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[David Savage]

At 06:20 AM 29/09/2006, Cotty wrote:
>On 28/9/06, Tom C, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
> >That certainly comes across us 1) as rude, 2) as simplistic, and 3) do you
> >really honestly expect that a person cannot both like a product line and
> >have a few complaints about it at the same time?
>
>I have a complaint.


Easily fixed.

Buy a PC.

You'll then have more than one.

Dave


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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR? (now Nikons/Fuji)

[Adam Maas]

Douglas Newman wrote:
> --- Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> The 18-200, while a good lens, is not one I'd pair
>> with the D200. 
> 
> The only reason I'd buy it is for the VR.
> 
> There's no other VR Nikkor wider than 24mm.

VR  is a great feature, but I'd give it up for those precious stops of 
speed at wider angles.

> 
>> I'd not invest in the D200 unless I was willing to
>> pair it with serious glass
> 
> I'd not invest in the D200 altogether - too noisy.

I don't find its noise levels objectionable, I like a little texture to 
my high-ISO work. The switch from D50 to K100D opened my eyes to the 
possibilities.

> 
> The S5 is a different matter entirely.
> 
> If the 17-55mm came in a VR version, then the only
> thing stopping me from buying that and an S5 would be
> price.
> 
> New Doug
> 

The S5 interests me little. It's advantages are not what I need in a Camera.

-Adam

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom C"
Subject: Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?



> I also generally thought the answer would be obvious.  I use Pentax 
> gear
> because it's what I have, or I use Pentax gear because I can't afford 
> to
> switch to something else, or I use Pentax gear because my grandmother 
> gave
> it to me as a gift. :-)

I use Pentax because of the Nikon F3HP.

William Robb



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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Adam Maas]

Ivan Shukster wrote:
> At work (and after work as well) I use the D200 with the 17-55 and 70-200 VR
> but for certain assignments I use a 18-200 with the D200. Usually the 18-200
> is attached to a D2X. It is much easier walking around with, especially when
> carrying a video camera and wearing a PPE and gas mask:) but I do perfer the
> VR lenses.Our 18-200 has been sent back as the auto focusing stopped
> working, most of the time on the D2X and sometimes on the D1X but seemed to
> work on the D200 and the D2H on a short trial. CAnnot remember if it is the
> VR model though.

If it's the Nikon, it's VR. They've only done one 18-200.

> 
> If I did not have Pentax lenses and film cameras the D200 would be my first
> choice for a digital. If the Pentax K10D is anywhere near as good of a
> camera to use it should sell great. By the way both of my co-workers thought
> the D200 too small for them.

Put the MB-D200 on it. With the grip, it's bigger than the D2X or D2H.

-Adam

> 
> 
> 
> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:49:47 -0400
> From: Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Douglas Newman wrote:
>> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
>> << Given the choice, I'd probably go for the new Fuji
>> S5 - if only for the dynamic range which would be a
>> definite plus for my night stuff - provided it came
>> with a better viewfinder than its predecessors. >>
>>
>> It has the same viewfinder as the D200 - which is to
>> say, a very, very good one.
>>
>> Actually, the D200/S5 body is excellent (unless you
>> find it too big/heavy). Superlative ergonomics and
>> build quality.
>>
>> It is a great advance over the S3 body which was
>> tolerable, no more.
>>
>> If it were affordable and I could get my hands on the
>> Nikon 18-200mm VR, I might be tempted by it. But it
>> will probably be very overpriced (like its
>> predecessors) and that lens (the only wide-to-anything
>> Nikon VR zoom for DSLRs) is both expensive and
>> practically impossible to find, so I'm not tempted.
>>
>> New Doug
>>
> 
> The 18-200, while a good lens, is not one I'd pair with the D200. The
> 18-200's virtues are good optical performance in a lightweight body, the
> D80 is probably the best match for it (good ergonomics, the D200's
> finder and AF unit and very similar sensors, in a similarly lightweight
> body).
> 
> I'd not invest in the D200 unless I was willing to pair it with serious
> glass, like the 17-55 and 70-200 VR, or take advantage of its (almost)
> full compatibility with MF glass and grab a set of top-end AI-S primes,
> along with maybe an AI-S 80-200 f4.
> 
> -Adam
> Who would be buying a D200 for his set of good AI/AI-S glass if it
> wasn't for the K10D.
> 
> 


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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Ivan Shukster]

At work (and after work as well) I use the D200 with the 17-55 and 70-200 VR
but for certain assignments I use a 18-200 with the D200. Usually the 18-200
is attached to a D2X. It is much easier walking around with, especially when
carrying a video camera and wearing a PPE and gas mask:) but I do perfer the
VR lenses.Our 18-200 has been sent back as the auto focusing stopped
working, most of the time on the D2X and sometimes on the D1X but seemed to
work on the D200 and the D2H on a short trial. CAnnot remember if it is the
VR model though.

If I did not have Pentax lenses and film cameras the D200 would be my first
choice for a digital. If the Pentax K10D is anywhere near as good of a
camera to use it should sell great. By the way both of my co-workers thought
the D200 too small for them.



Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:49:47 -0400
From: Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Douglas Newman wrote:
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
> << Given the choice, I'd probably go for the new Fuji
> S5 - if only for the dynamic range which would be a
> definite plus for my night stuff - provided it came
> with a better viewfinder than its predecessors. >>
>
> It has the same viewfinder as the D200 - which is to
> say, a very, very good one.
>
> Actually, the D200/S5 body is excellent (unless you
> find it too big/heavy). Superlative ergonomics and
> build quality.
>
> It is a great advance over the S3 body which was
> tolerable, no more.
>
> If it were affordable and I could get my hands on the
> Nikon 18-200mm VR, I might be tempted by it. But it
> will probably be very overpriced (like its
> predecessors) and that lens (the only wide-to-anything
> Nikon VR zoom for DSLRs) is both expensive and
> practically impossible to find, so I'm not tempted.
>
> New Doug
>

The 18-200, while a good lens, is not one I'd pair with the D200. The
18-200's virtues are good optical performance in a lightweight body, the
D80 is probably the best match for it (good ergonomics, the D200's
finder and AF unit and very similar sensors, in a similarly lightweight
body).

I'd not invest in the D200 unless I was willing to pair it with serious
glass, like the 17-55 and 70-200 VR, or take advantage of its (almost)
full compatibility with MF glass and grab a set of top-end AI-S primes,
along with maybe an AI-S 80-200 f4.

-Adam
Who would be buying a D200 for his set of good AI/AI-S glass if it
wasn't for the K10D.


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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[P. J. Alling]

I thought you went out for a drink?

Cotty wrote:

>On 28/9/06, Tom C, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
>  
>
>>That certainly comes across us 1) as rude, 2) as simplistic, and 3) do you 
>>really honestly expect that a person cannot both like a product line and 
>>have a few complaints about it at the same time?
>>
>>
>
>I have a complaint.
>
>  
>


-- 
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--Albert Einstein



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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Cotty"
Subject: Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?


> On 28/9/06, Tom C, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
>>That certainly comes across us 1) as rude, 2) as simplistic, and 3) do 
>>you
>>really honestly expect that a person cannot both like a product line 
>>and
>>have a few complaints about it at the same time?
>
> I have a complaint.

The complaint department is 93,000,000 miles that way  --->


William Robb 



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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Shel Belinkoff]

If the answer were obvious, there'd be no need to ask the question ;-))

Shel



> [Original Message]
> From: Tom C 

> I also generally thought the answer would be obvious.  



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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Mat Maessen]

On 9/28/06, Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Both are 7 in 7 designs, although the optical design did change somewhat
> between the two. The latter SMC-M version is essentially the SMC-A
> version with a non-A mount and aperture ring. It looks like they may
> have run out of parts for the earlier version and decided to put the A
> into production early, without spilling the beans on the A's most
> interesting features.

There is also the Takumar Bayonet 28/2.8, which was an identical
optical formula to the later M28/2.8 and the A28/2.8, but without the
SMC coatings on the glass. I have one, and have made many good photos
with it. I have an A28/2.8 now, so it's been relegated to backup use.
It was amusing to put the two side by side, and note the
near-identicality.

-Mat

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Tom C]

Considering the degree of intolerance to Pentax users that hold views that 
are considered somehow heretical, I thought I'd ask.

I also generally thought the answer would be obvious.  I use Pentax gear 
because it's what I have, or I use Pentax gear because I can't afford to 
switch to something else, or I use Pentax gear because my grandmother gave 
it to me as a gift. :-)



Tom C.


>From: "Shel Belinkoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
>Subject: Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?
>Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 16:29:58 -0700
>
>I only asked a question, Tom.  There was no suggestion that anyone stop
>using Pentax or leave the list.  The question was simple, Ralf replied with
>a straightforward answer.  Question asked, question answered.  You read too
>much into my question.  Others may have suggested that Ralf quite Pentax or
>leave the list.
>
>Shel
>
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Tom C
>
> > Shel et al,
> >
> > I have to ask what is with you and several others, that when someone on
>the
> > list has a complaint or a negative comment regarding Pentax, that you 
>now
> > feel compelled to basically invite them to stop using Pentax, and by
> > extension this mailing list?
> >
> > That certainly comes across us 1) as rude, 2) as simplistic, and 3) do
>you
> > really honestly expect that a person cannot both like a product line and
> > have a few complaints about it at the same time?
> >
> >
> > Tom C.
> >
> >
> > >From: "Shel Belinkoff"
>
> > >So, if wide angles lenses are so important to you, and Pentax doesn't
>seem
> > >to make an acceptable w/a, why are you using Pentax gear?
>
>
>
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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR? (now Nikons/Fuji)

[Douglas Newman]

--- Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The 18-200, while a good lens, is not one I'd pair
> with the D200. 

The only reason I'd buy it is for the VR.

There's no other VR Nikkor wider than 24mm.

> I'd not invest in the D200 unless I was willing to
> pair it with serious glass

I'd not invest in the D200 altogether - too noisy.

The S5 is a different matter entirely.

If the 17-55mm came in a VR version, then the only
thing stopping me from buying that and an S5 would be
price.

New Doug

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Shel Belinkoff]

Do you have some inside information about its quality?

Shel



> [Original Message]
> From: Mark Roberts

> Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:
> > From: "j"
> >
> >   
> >> So are you guys saying that no wide Pentax wide
> >> is going to work that good with the new K10D..How about long lens ?
> >> 
> >
> > This is horsepucky. The DA12-24, DA14, FA20-35, FA20, DA21, FA28, and  
> > FA35 are all excellent. The DA16-45 is quite good too.
> >   
> Wait until the 16-50/2.8 is available later this year!
>
>
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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Adam Maas]

Both are 7 in 7 designs, although the optical design did change somewhat 
between the two. The latter SMC-M version is essentially the SMC-A 
version with a non-A mount and aperture ring. It looks like they may 
have run out of parts for the earlier version and decided to put the A 
into production early, without spilling the beans on the A's most 
interesting features.

-Adam

Shel Belinkoff wrote:
> It could be.  There are, BTW, two M28/2.8 designs.
> 
> Shel
> 
> 
> 
>> [Original Message]
>> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ralf R. Radermacher)>
> 
>>> Or the FA 28/2.8 AL - great lens at a great price.
>> Is this a different optical design compared to the old M 2.8/28 mm?
> 
> 
> 


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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Shel Belinkoff]

I only asked a question, Tom.  There was no suggestion that anyone stop
using Pentax or leave the list.  The question was simple, Ralf replied with
a straightforward answer.  Question asked, question answered.  You read too
much into my question.  Others may have suggested that Ralf quite Pentax or
leave the list.

Shel



> [Original Message]
> From: Tom C 

> Shel et al,
>
> I have to ask what is with you and several others, that when someone on
the 
> list has a complaint or a negative comment regarding Pentax, that you now 
> feel compelled to basically invite them to stop using Pentax, and by 
> extension this mailing list?
>
> That certainly comes across us 1) as rude, 2) as simplistic, and 3) do
you 
> really honestly expect that a person cannot both like a product line and 
> have a few complaints about it at the same time?
>
>
> Tom C.
>
>
> >From: "Shel Belinkoff" 

> >So, if wide angles lenses are so important to you, and Pentax doesn't
seem
> >to make an acceptable w/a, why are you using Pentax gear?



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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Shel Belinkoff]

It could be.  There are, BTW, two M28/2.8 designs.

Shel



> [Original Message]
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ralf R. Radermacher)>

> > Or the FA 28/2.8 AL - great lens at a great price.
>
> Is this a different optical design compared to the old M 2.8/28 mm?



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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Digital Image Studio]

On 29/09/06, Ralf R. Radermacher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The 2.8/24 mm has a real nasty barrel distorsion, the 2.8/28 mm is a
> notorious under-achiever, and the 2.8/35 mm is prone to sticky aperture
> blades (so much that I haven't seen a working example on ebay.de for
> ages - those who were claimed to be OK were just as bad).

If you are shooting digital geometric distortion should be a
non-issue, there are many ways to eliminate it completely whilst
maintaining excellent image integrity.

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Adam Maas]

Douglas Newman wrote:
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
> << Given the choice, I'd probably go for the new Fuji
> S5 - if only for the dynamic range which would be a
> definite plus for my night stuff - provided it came
> with a better viewfinder than its predecessors. >>
> 
> It has the same viewfinder as the D200 - which is to
> say, a very, very good one. 
> 
> Actually, the D200/S5 body is excellent (unless you
> find it too big/heavy). Superlative ergonomics and
> build quality.
> 
> It is a great advance over the S3 body which was
> tolerable, no more.
> 
> If it were affordable and I could get my hands on the
> Nikon 18-200mm VR, I might be tempted by it. But it
> will probably be very overpriced (like its
> predecessors) and that lens (the only wide-to-anything
> Nikon VR zoom for DSLRs) is both expensive and
> practically impossible to find, so I'm not tempted.
> 
> New Doug
> 

The 18-200, while a good lens, is not one I'd pair with the D200. The 
18-200's virtues are good optical performance in a lightweight body, the 
D80 is probably the best match for it (good ergonomics, the D200's 
finder and AF unit and very similar sensors, in a similarly lightweight 
body).

I'd not invest in the D200 unless I was willing to pair it with serious 
glass, like the 17-55 and 70-200 VR, or take advantage of its (almost) 
full compatibility with MF glass and grab a set of top-end AI-S primes, 
along with maybe an AI-S 80-200 f4.

-Adam
Who would be buying a D200 for his set of good AI/AI-S glass if it 
wasn't for the K10D.

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Mark Roberts]

Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:
> From: "j"
>
>   
>> So are you guys saying that no wide Pentax wide
>> is going to work that good with the new K10D..How about long lens ?
>> 
>
> This is horsepucky. The DA12-24, DA14, FA20-35, FA20, DA21, FA28, and  
> FA35 are all excellent. The DA16-45 is quite good too.
>   
Wait until the 16-50/2.8 is available later this year!


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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

On Sep 28, 2006, at 2:34 PM, Ralf R. Radermacher wrote:

> Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Or the FA 28/2.8 AL - great lens at a great price.
>
> Is this a different optical design compared to the old M 2.8/28 mm?

Yes.

G

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

From: "j"

> So are you guys saying that no wide Pentax wide
> is going to work that good with the new K10D..How about long lens ?

This is horsepucky. The DA12-24, DA14, FA20-35, FA20, DA21, FA28, and  
FA35 are all excellent. The DA16-45 is quite good too.

Godfrey

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Douglas Newman]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
<< Given the choice, I'd probably go for the new Fuji
S5 - if only for the dynamic range which would be a
definite plus for my night stuff - provided it came
with a better viewfinder than its predecessors. >>

It has the same viewfinder as the D200 - which is to
say, a very, very good one. 

Actually, the D200/S5 body is excellent (unless you
find it too big/heavy). Superlative ergonomics and
build quality.

It is a great advance over the S3 body which was
tolerable, no more.

If it were affordable and I could get my hands on the
Nikon 18-200mm VR, I might be tempted by it. But it
will probably be very overpriced (like its
predecessors) and that lens (the only wide-to-anything
Nikon VR zoom for DSLRs) is both expensive and
practically impossible to find, so I'm not tempted.

New Doug

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Tom C]

Third door on the right. :-)



Tom C.



>From: Cotty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: "pentax list" 
>Subject: Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?
>Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:20:44 +0100
>
>On 28/9/06, Tom C, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
> >That certainly comes across us 1) as rude, 2) as simplistic, and 3) do 
>you
> >really honestly expect that a person cannot both like a product line and
> >have a few complaints about it at the same time?
>
>I have a complaint.
>
>--
>
>
>Cheers,
>   Cotty
>
>
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>_
>
>
>
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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Cotty]

On 28/9/06, Tom C, discombobulated, unleashed:

>That certainly comes across us 1) as rude, 2) as simplistic, and 3) do you 
>really honestly expect that a person cannot both like a product line and 
>have a few complaints about it at the same time?

I have a complaint.

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Adam Maas]

Ralf R. Radermacher wrote:
> Shel Belinkoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> So, if wide angles lenses are so important to you, and Pentax doesn't seem
>> to make an acceptable w/a, why are you using Pentax gear?
> 
> I bought into the system at a time when extreme wide-angle lenses
> weren't necessary. The 2.8/28 mm was the shortest Pentax lens I've ever
> used on analog Pentax bodies. While not a stellar performer, I found it
> to be acceptable for my purposes. 
> 
> Then, I inherited a complete Contarex system which I've been very happy
> with for a number of years until service became practically
> unaffordable. 
> 
> Faced with the need to look for an alternative and with a bunch of
> Pentax lenses and bodies still in a drawer I bought a second-hand LX and
> a new *istDS which, in turn, created the requirement for shorter focal
> lengths. Bought the 15 mm, a 4.5/21 mm, a 2.8/24 mm, and a 2.8/35 mm on
> ebay.  
> 
> The 21 mm is fine and I really love it. But the distorsion of the 24 mm
> is a shame and I'm still looking for a working 2.8/35 mm after I had to
> return the three I've bought so far.
> 
> Besides, I wouldn't expect things to be all peaches and honey with the
> other brands either.
> 
> Given the choice, I'd probably go for the new Fuji S5 - if only for the
> dynamic range which would be a definite plus for my night stuff -
> provided it came with a better viewfinder than its predecessors. 
> 
> Ralf
> 

The S5 body in entirely inherited from the D200. Which has the only 
viewfinder in the class which is arguably better than a D/DS finder 
(only arguably though).

But the Nikon glass for it isn't any better than the Pentax options, 
except for the 17-35 f2.8 AF-S which has no real equivalent in Pentax's 
line.

-Adam

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Adam Maas]

Ralf R. Radermacher wrote:
> Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> What about the 2/28, 2/35 and 2.8/14 DA? All are excellent lenses, and
>> two of them are currently available.
> 
> If I had that much money to spend I'd buy a Fuji S5 and the lenses that
> go with it.
> 
> *duck*
> 
> Ralf
> 

Two of them are relatively inexpensive, and the third doesn't cost much 
more than the 15/3.5 you already have goes for.

You could get all three for less than half the cost of the S5 alone if 
you sold the 15.

-Adam

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Tom C]

Shel et al,

I have to ask what is with you and several others, that when someone on the 
list has a complaint or a negative comment regarding Pentax, that you now 
feel compelled to basically invite them to stop using Pentax, and by 
extension this mailing list?

That certainly comes across us 1) as rude, 2) as simplistic, and 3) do you 
really honestly expect that a person cannot both like a product line and 
have a few complaints about it at the same time?


Tom C.


>From: "Shel Belinkoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
>Subject: Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?
>Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 13:51:53 -0700
>
>So, if wide angles lenses are so important to you, and Pentax doesn't seem
>to make an acceptable w/a, why are you using Pentax gear?
>
>Shel
>
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From:  (Ralf R. Radermacher)
>
>(re A15/3.5)
>
> > Still wouldn't be enough to make the lens usable for my purposes. Pity
> > really.
> >
> > Somehow, the whole wide-angle business appears to be Pentax' weak point.
> >
> > The 2.8/24 mm has a real nasty barrel distorsion, the 2.8/28 mm is a
> > notorious under-achiever, and the 2.8/35 mm is prone to sticky aperture
> > blades (so much that I haven't seen a working example on ebay.de for
> > ages - those who were claimed to be OK were just as bad).
> >
>
>
>
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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Adam Maas]

Ralf R. Radermacher wrote:
> Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> Or the FA 28/2.8 AL - great lens at a great price.
> 
> Is this a different optical design compared to the old M 2.8/28 mm?
> 
> Ralf
> 

Totally different design. The FA is a 5 element in 5 group design using 
an aspherical element, the M is a 7 element in 7 group design.

Note at around that focal length you've also got the option of the 31mm 
Limited, which is even better.

-Adam

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Cotty]

This page is still up - flare contest between a K15 3.5 and a Smegma 14 2.8...



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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Ralf R. Radermacher]

Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Or the FA 28/2.8 AL - great lens at a great price.

Is this a different optical design compared to the old M 2.8/28 mm?

Ralf

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Ralf R. Radermacher]

J. C. O'Connell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> You should try the SMCK series K28/2.5, K24/3.5, K20/4, and K35/3.5.

They're just rather difficult to come by. I have the 4/20 mm in the M
version and I'm very fond of it.

Ralf

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Ralf R. Radermacher]

j <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> So are you guys saying that no wide Pentax wide 
> is going to work that good with the new K10D..

Not at all. I haven't tried the newer Pentax lenses. Maybe there's
something better among these. I was merely talking about the lenses I
own which is only a fraction of what's available.

Ralf

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Ralf R. Radermacher]

Shel Belinkoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> So, if wide angles lenses are so important to you, and Pentax doesn't seem
> to make an acceptable w/a, why are you using Pentax gear?

I bought into the system at a time when extreme wide-angle lenses
weren't necessary. The 2.8/28 mm was the shortest Pentax lens I've ever
used on analog Pentax bodies. While not a stellar performer, I found it
to be acceptable for my purposes. 

Then, I inherited a complete Contarex system which I've been very happy
with for a number of years until service became practically
unaffordable. 

Faced with the need to look for an alternative and with a bunch of
Pentax lenses and bodies still in a drawer I bought a second-hand LX and
a new *istDS which, in turn, created the requirement for shorter focal
lengths. Bought the 15 mm, a 4.5/21 mm, a 2.8/24 mm, and a 2.8/35 mm on
ebay.  

The 21 mm is fine and I really love it. But the distorsion of the 24 mm
is a shame and I'm still looking for a working 2.8/35 mm after I had to
return the three I've bought so far.

Besides, I wouldn't expect things to be all peaches and honey with the
other brands either.

Given the choice, I'd probably go for the new Fuji S5 - if only for the
dynamic range which would be a definite plus for my night stuff -
provided it came with a better viewfinder than its predecessors. 

Ralf

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "j"
Subject: Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?


So are you guys saying that no wide Pentax wide
is going to work that good with the new K10D..How about long lens ? 
Thanks

I'm not, but I also realize that really wide angle lenses just tend to 
be not as optically good as longer focal lengths, and that you need a 
very short focal length to get a wide angle on the size of sensor that 
Pentax uses.

William Robb 



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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[j]

So are you guys saying that no wide Pentax wide 
is going to work that good with the new K10D..How about long lens ? Thanks



At 02:58 PM 9/28/06, you wrote:
>J. C. O'Connell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Has anyone tried the SMCT, SMCK or SMCA 15mm F3.5
> > Lenses on any of the Pentax DSLRs? I am curious how
> > It does and compares with the 14mm Digital dedicated
> > Lens (DA?).
>
>No idea how it compares to the 14 mm, but I have the SMC-A 15 mm on my
>DS. Bought it as a 'replacement' for my 21 mm Contarex Biogon when I
>switched from analog (Contarex) to digital (Pentax).
>
>Quite frankly, I'm not very happy with it. Sharpness in the corners is
>naff, even stopped way down. Worse still, this lens is absolutely
>unusable for my industrial night scenes. Any light source in the frame
>(plus those way out of it) provokes an armada of UFO's across the
>picture - worse even than what I get with the single-coated Russian 30
>mm Zodiak lens on my Kiev 60.
>
>Ralf
>
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>private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de
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RE: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[J. C. O'Connell]

Correction I meant the K28/3.5 not 2.5
jco

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
J. C. O'Connell
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:12 PM
To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List'
Subject: RE: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

You should try the SMCK series K28/2.5, K24/3.5, K20/4, and K35/3.5.
These are all outstanding quality lenses optically and mechanically.
KEH can still fix them all too if needed
jco

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Ralf R. Radermacher
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 4:15 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

J. C. O'Connell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> since you are only using 2/3 of the lenses angle of
> view maybe you should fashion a custom hood for APS
> usage to help eliminate flare caused by out of frame
> light sources?

Still wouldn't be enough to make the lens usable for my purposes. Pity
really.

Somehow, the whole wide-angle business appears to be Pentax' weak point.

The 2.8/24 mm has a real nasty barrel distorsion, the 2.8/28 mm is a
notorious under-achiever, and the 2.8/35 mm is prone to sticky aperture
blades (so much that I haven't seen a working example on ebay.de for
ages - those who were claimed to be OK were just as bad). 

Ralf 

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Ralf R. Radermacher]

Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> What about the 2/28, 2/35 and 2.8/14 DA? All are excellent lenses, and
> two of them are currently available.

If I had that much money to spend I'd buy a Fuji S5 and the lenses that
go with it.

*duck*

Ralf

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RE: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[J. C. O'Connell]

You should try the SMCK series K28/2.5, K24/3.5, K20/4, and K35/3.5.
These are all outstanding quality lenses optically and mechanically.
KEH can still fix them all too if needed
jco

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Ralf R. Radermacher
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 4:15 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

J. C. O'Connell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> since you are only using 2/3 of the lenses angle of
> view maybe you should fashion a custom hood for APS
> usage to help eliminate flare caused by out of frame
> light sources?

Still wouldn't be enough to make the lens usable for my purposes. Pity
really.

Somehow, the whole wide-angle business appears to be Pentax' weak point.

The 2.8/24 mm has a real nasty barrel distorsion, the 2.8/28 mm is a
notorious under-achiever, and the 2.8/35 mm is prone to sticky aperture
blades (so much that I haven't seen a working example on ebay.de for
ages - those who were claimed to be OK were just as bad). 

Ralf 

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Mark Roberts]

Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:
 > On Sep 28, 2006, at 1:35 PM, Adam Maas wrote:
 >
 >> What about the 2/28, 2/35 and 2.8/14 DA? All are excellent lenses, and
 >> two of them are currently available.
 >
 > And the FA20/2.8 ... one of the best I've tried ... or DA21/3.2?


Or the FA 28/2.8 AL - great lens at a great price.


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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

On Sep 28, 2006, at 1:35 PM, Adam Maas wrote:

> Ralf R. Radermacher wrote:
>> J. C. O'Connell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> since you are only using 2/3 of the lenses angle of
>>> view maybe you should fashion a custom hood for APS
>>> usage to help eliminate flare caused by out of frame
>>> light sources?
>>
>>
>> Still wouldn't be enough to make the lens usable for my purposes.  
>> Pity
>> really.
>>
>> Somehow, the whole wide-angle business appears to be Pentax' weak  
>> point.
>>
>> The 2.8/24 mm has a real nasty barrel distorsion, the 2.8/28 mm is a
>> notorious under-achiever, and the 2.8/35 mm is prone to sticky  
>> aperture
>> blades (so much that I haven't seen a working example on ebay.de for
>> ages - those who were claimed to be OK were just as bad).

I never noticed much barrel distortion with the A24/2.8.

> What about the 2/28, 2/35 and 2.8/14 DA? All are excellent lenses, and
> two of them are currently available.

And the FA20/2.8 ... one of the best I've tried ... or DA21/3.2?


Godfrey

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Shel Belinkoff]

So, if wide angles lenses are so important to you, and Pentax doesn't seem
to make an acceptable w/a, why are you using Pentax gear?

Shel



> [Original Message]
> From:  (Ralf R. Radermacher)

(re A15/3.5)

> Still wouldn't be enough to make the lens usable for my purposes. Pity
> really.
>
> Somehow, the whole wide-angle business appears to be Pentax' weak point.
>
> The 2.8/24 mm has a real nasty barrel distorsion, the 2.8/28 mm is a
> notorious under-achiever, and the 2.8/35 mm is prone to sticky aperture
> blades (so much that I haven't seen a working example on ebay.de for
> ages - those who were claimed to be OK were just as bad). 
>



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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Adam Maas]

Ralf R. Radermacher wrote:
> J. C. O'Connell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
>>since you are only using 2/3 of the lenses angle of
>>view maybe you should fashion a custom hood for APS
>>usage to help eliminate flare caused by out of frame
>>light sources?
> 
> 
> Still wouldn't be enough to make the lens usable for my purposes. Pity
> really.
> 
> Somehow, the whole wide-angle business appears to be Pentax' weak point.
> 
> The 2.8/24 mm has a real nasty barrel distorsion, the 2.8/28 mm is a
> notorious under-achiever, and the 2.8/35 mm is prone to sticky aperture
> blades (so much that I haven't seen a working example on ebay.de for
> ages - those who were claimed to be OK were just as bad). 
> 
> Ralf 
> 

What about the 2/28, 2/35 and 2.8/14 DA? All are excellent lenses, and 
two of them are currently available.

-Adam


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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Ralf R. Radermacher]

J. C. O'Connell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> since you are only using 2/3 of the lenses angle of
> view maybe you should fashion a custom hood for APS
> usage to help eliminate flare caused by out of frame
> light sources?

Still wouldn't be enough to make the lens usable for my purposes. Pity
really.

Somehow, the whole wide-angle business appears to be Pentax' weak point.

The 2.8/24 mm has a real nasty barrel distorsion, the 2.8/28 mm is a
notorious under-achiever, and the 2.8/35 mm is prone to sticky aperture
blades (so much that I haven't seen a working example on ebay.de for
ages - those who were claimed to be OK were just as bad). 

Ralf 

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private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de
manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses

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RE: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[J. C. O'Connell]

since you are only using 2/3 of the lenses angle of
view maybe you should fashion a custom hood for APS
usage to help eliminate flare caused by out of frame
light sources?
jco

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Ralf R. Radermacher
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 2:58 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

J. C. O'Connell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Has anyone tried the SMCT, SMCK or SMCA 15mm F3.5
> Lenses on any of the Pentax DSLRs? I am curious how
> It does and compares with the 14mm Digital dedicated
> Lens (DA?). 

No idea how it compares to the 14 mm, but I have the SMC-A 15 mm on my
DS. Bought it as a 'replacement' for my 21 mm Contarex Biogon when I
switched from analog (Contarex) to digital (Pentax). 

Quite frankly, I'm not very happy with it. Sharpness in the corners is
naff, even stopped way down. Worse still, this lens is absolutely
unusable for my industrial night scenes. Any light source in the frame
(plus those way out of it) provokes an armada of UFO's across the
picture - worse even than what I get with the single-coated Russian 30
mm Zodiak lens on my Kiev 60.

Ralf

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Ralf R. Radermacher  -  DL9KCG  -  Köln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de
manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "J. C. O'Connell"
Subject: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?


> Has anyone tried the SMCT, SMCK or SMCA 15mm F3.5
> Lenses on any of the Pentax DSLRs? I am curious how
> It does and compares with the 14mm Digital dedicated
> Lens (DA?). Thanks, jco

I bought the 15 when there was no wide angle alternative offered by
Pentax. It is good on the digital, not the sharpest, but it doesn't have
any fatal flaws other than that.
The 14 is somewhat better, and is a half stop faster as well.

For really wide angle, I still shoot film, mostly becasue I am too lazy
to do multiple exposure panoramic style pictures.
Welcome back, BTW.

William Robb



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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Ralf R. Radermacher]

J. C. O'Connell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Has anyone tried the SMCT, SMCK or SMCA 15mm F3.5
> Lenses on any of the Pentax DSLRs? I am curious how
> It does and compares with the 14mm Digital dedicated
> Lens (DA?). 

No idea how it compares to the 14 mm, but I have the SMC-A 15 mm on my
DS. Bought it as a 'replacement' for my 21 mm Contarex Biogon when I
switched from analog (Contarex) to digital (Pentax). 

Quite frankly, I'm not very happy with it. Sharpness in the corners is
naff, even stopped way down. Worse still, this lens is absolutely
unusable for my industrial night scenes. Any light source in the frame
(plus those way out of it) provokes an armada of UFO's across the
picture - worse even than what I get with the single-coated Russian 30
mm Zodiak lens on my Kiev 60.

Ralf

-- 
Ralf R. Radermacher  -  DL9KCG  -  Köln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de
manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

On Sep 28, 2006, at 6:50 AM, Digital Image Studio wrote:

> On 28/09/06, J. C. O'Connell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Has anyone tried the SMCT, SMCK or SMCA 15mm F3.5
>> Lenses on any of the Pentax DSLRs? I am curious how
>> It does and compares with the 14mm Digital dedicated
>> Lens (DA?). Thanks, jco
>
> Yes, well from the DA 14mm tests I've seen. I'll find a full res
> sample from my A15/3.5 to post if you are interested?

Someone (I think it was Cotty) sent me a couple of full resolution  
files once before which I compared with the DA14. I found them to be  
on par overall, and the DA14 is quite a bit easier to manage in use.  
It also has the quickshift focusing mount.

(Aside: As I mentioned, I ended up bringing the DA21, FA35 and FA77  
on this trip. I was out shooting today ... with these three lenses as  
my kit, the difference and convenience using the DA21 with its  
QuickShift focus clutch becomes very noticeable! I was surprised at  
just how much less of the time I had to flip the camera to manual  
focus because of it.)

Anyway, I'd like to see some more 15mm f/3.5 samples if you make them  
available.

My DA14/2.8 samples are here:

   http://homepage.mac.com/godders/14mm-examples/

Godfrey

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RE: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[J. C. O'Connell]

YES PLEASE SEND IT (jpg) TO : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thanks, jco

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Digital Image Studio
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:50 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

On 28/09/06, J. C. O'Connell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Has anyone tried the SMCT, SMCK or SMCA 15mm F3.5
> Lenses on any of the Pentax DSLRs? I am curious how
> It does and compares with the 14mm Digital dedicated
> Lens (DA?). Thanks, jco

Yes, well from the DA 14mm tests I've seen. I'll find a full res
sample from my A15/3.5 to post if you are interested?

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HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA
Tel +61-2-9554-4110
UTC(GMT)  +10 Hours
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/
Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998

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Re: Pentax 15mm on DSLR?

[Digital Image Studio]

On 28/09/06, J. C. O'Connell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Has anyone tried the SMCT, SMCK or SMCA 15mm F3.5
> Lenses on any of the Pentax DSLRs? I am curious how
> It does and compares with the 14mm Digital dedicated
> Lens (DA?). Thanks, jco

Yes, well from the DA 14mm tests I've seen. I'll find a full res
sample from my A15/3.5 to post if you are interested?

-- 
Rob Studdert
HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA
Tel +61-2-9554-4110
UTC(GMT)  +10 Hours
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/
Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998

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