Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
> > > I have read this a couple of time on this list, but it > is is wrong. The *ist has separate dials for shutter > and aperture (unlike the MZ/ZX7) > > Alexander As has already been mentioned the *ist SLR has a single dial for setting shutter speeds and aperture. This is not a great problem (to me at least) as when in aperture priority mode or shutter priority mode the single dial is sufficient. Even when in manual mode the single dial controls the shutter speed and a combination of the Av button and the single dial controls the aperture. Not as convenient as having individual dials for the shutter speeds and aperture but one adapts! Harry Harold Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
Don't say the last three words too quickly };-)> ROTFL! Cheers, Heiko>> What, the *ist is aimed at winkers? Peter -- CAMERA DIRECT 8 DORSET STREET BRIGHTON EAST SUSSEX BN2 1WA UK TEL 44 1273 681129 FAX 44 1273 681135 http://www.camera-direct.com
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
Heiko Hamann wrote: We should also keep in mind that the SLRs are developping more and more. Compare the LX to an actual entry-level MZ-60. Sure. The MZ-60 has a plastic lens mount, a dim & small viewfinder and uses a focusing method that sometimes works. Nearly. It also comes with these fantastic lenses, matched in price, which zoom in an impressive range, giving you similar quality to a pocket p&s. To put it other words. I see absolutely no reason to buy a contemporary "entry-level" SLR instead of a competent P&S. Some 10 years ago, p&s were jokes and entry level SLRs decent cameras. Now its the other way round. cheers, caveman
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
Hi Anthony, on 20 Jun 03 you wrote in pentax.list: >smaller than maximum were ever possible using pre A lenses on an *ist. >Don't say the last three words too quickly };-)> ROTFL! Cheers, Heiko
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
Hi Rüdiger, on 19 Jun 03 you wrote in pentax.list: [very interesting feature comparison snipped] >If you see the features, you see that only the mount compatibilty is entry >level, all others are mid class and some are on the level of the MZ-S. IF >you are saying the *ist is entry level, then your are taking only the lens >mount in account. It depends fully on how you define "entry level". I agree that the *ist is very well featured - better than every model that is actually supposed to be "entry level". And it is more expensive those "entry level" modells. But we should keep in mind that the photo industry is changing dramatically. I'm quite sure that it will make no sense offering many different analog modells in the near future. For Pentax it might be even sufficient to sell three different types of an analog SLR in addition to the growing digital business. Let's have a look on possible, different "entry level" definitions: - Actually an entry level SLR is the cheapest one. Someone entering the photographic arena might see a sense in buying a new camera of a well known manufacturer But he has a limited budget and doesn't know much about the features he needs. So he takes the cheapest Nikon, Canon, Pentax or Minolta. - I think the market segment described above will die. Why? Because many people getting into photography on an entry level (i.e. they didn't own a SLR before) will buy a digital P&S camera (a DSLR would be too expensive for them). Becaue of this, the market segment for cameras like the MZ-60 or Nikon F55 will shrink, competition will grow and Nikon or Canon will dominate this segment. I assume, that Pentax will sell an MZ- 60 as long as possible there and will leave this market segment if they cannot sell anymore. - Now - who will need a new _analog_ Pentax SLR then? There are three customer groups, I think: - Users of digital P&S cameras who cannot afford a DSLR but want a SLR. They have possibly a large technical affinity and will be attracted by the feature-laden but comparable cheap *ist. - Advanced users: This group won't buy a *ist because of its cheap plastics design. They might be in search of a adequate succsessor for the MZ-3/5 or Z-1P. This is the next *ist- modell Pentax might release... - Semi-professional users: They might buy the MZ-S for some more time or they will take the step to MF or a DSLR. Possibly Pentax will release a semi-pro *ist for this segment, but this would be the latest release, I think. Everything pure speculation, but I really think, that - the market for analog SLR will shrink dramatically (especially for smaller manufacturers as Pentax) - the numer of different analog SLR modells will shrink - a line-up of three *ist modells will gradually replace the MZ-modells - the *ist will be the entry-level SLR for Pentax in some time (also it doesn't look like that today) We should also keep in mind that the SLRs are developping more and more. Compare the LX to an actual entry-level MZ-60. The MZ-60 has much more features but it is still an entry-level camera - the LX isn't. The *ist has even more features, but in two or three years they might be standard... Cheers, Heiko
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
Not if the counterjumper at the camera store tells them that spotmetering is what Real Photographers do, and that a camera without a spotmeter is junk. Just look at the wristwatches worn by average teenage boys, and then tell me that in a couple of years time they'll want strong but stylish and understated cameras. Not likely, they'll want garishly overstated, bells & whistles filled junk, and who cares if it only lasts 5 years, only losers use old stuff ;-) regards, Anthony Farr - Original Message - From: "Nick Zentena" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (snip) > I guess some people will > consider the feature list when looking to get thier first SLR but some are > going to be scared off by the long list. Some are even going to say "Spot > meter? How much for a meter without a spot?" > > Nick > > >
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
This line of argument totally misses the following point. 'Entry level' purchasers simply will not posses any lenses that require non-metered operation. If they already own any lenses then they don't represent the 'entry level'. They need only ensure that every subsequent lens they purchase is A or later to maintain full compatability with the lens's capabilities. When I previously pointed out that the lenses could be used meterless to get all apertures, my point was to rebut the incorrect claims that no apertures smaller than maximum were ever possible using pre A lenses on an *ist. Don't say the last three words too quickly };-)> regards, Anthony Farr - Original Message - From: "Nick Zentena" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > On June 19, 2003 11:03 am, Rob Studdert wrote: > > On 19 Jun 2003 at 10:55, Nick Zentena wrote: > > > How does that make sense? Nothing is stopping you from using the > > > aperture ring other then losing in camera metering. > > > > Talk about feature laden. > > > > Haven't you heard. Feature rich equals entry level. Arguing that a person > needs to use a handheld meter makes a camera aimed at entry level makes no > sense to me. > > Nick > >
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
On 19 Jun 2003 at 11:00, Herb Chong wrote: > i use my digital camera all the time with only one dial for controlling both > aperture and shutter speed. i either shoot fully programmed mode or aperture > priority mode. with the dial, i can vary the combination in favor of higher > shutter speed or higher aperture while maintaining constant exposure when in > program mode. in aperture mode, i adjust the aperture for the depth of field i > want while staying within the slowest shutter speed limits of my camera. when i > disagree with the camera, i use exposure compensation by pressing a button and > rotating the same dial. i've had 3 cameras that work this way and i see very > little need for two controls because i can't remember ever using manual mode on > any of my digitals or my ZX-5n. one control is almost all i ever change. i am > fairly sure i have also done the same on my Super Program, leave it in Aperture > mode or program mode with exposure compensation. my MX forces me to use both > controls, but then i have no choice. My E-10 has an easy to access exposure mode dail that provides Manual, Aperture Priority, Shutter Priority and Program plus it has a thumb-wheel for aperture control and and index-finger wheel for shutter speed, and it annoys the hell out of me. I tend to use mostly Program and manual modes (and try to avoid the aperture control). Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
On June 19, 2003 11:18 am, Anthony Farr wrote: > I'm not sure which market you mean isn't very big today. What I am sure of People who have never owned a SLR and now want one. I guess some people will consider the feature list when looking to get thier first SLR but some are going to be scared off by the long list. Some are even going to say "Spot meter? How much for a meter without a spot?" Nick
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
>From Matt >Don't forget the user interface - this is one clear strike against the >*ist, having only one dial to control shutter, aperture and exposure >compensation. Now, I haven't used a single dial camera for the >requisite 6 months, but I have used my brother's Rebel 2000 a fair >amount, and the single dial drove me nuts. Without being able to use >the aperture ring, that single dial is all you have on the *ist. > Yes a single dail is not so good also the Z-20 had it. But you can choose with it between Av, Tv and also M-mode. The orginal message was Some people on the list always state, that the *ist/*istD is a entry level camera because the Pentax marketing has said that. They also said the MZ-S it a pro camera. So let us use our own heads and look at the Pentax line up and also at other companies where the *ist fit in. There are five levels of cameras. Level 1, (beginner, entry level) Z-10, Z-70, MZ-M, MZ-50, MZ-30, MZ-60 (200 Euro) (Nikon F55, EOS300, Dynax 3) Level 2, (amateur, low midclass) Z-50p, MZ-7, MZ-6 (300 Euro) (Nikon F75, EOS 300v, Dynax 4) Level 3, (advanced amateur, upper midclass) Z-20, MZ-5, MZ-5n, MZ-3 (400 Euro) (Nikon F80, EOS 30, Dynax 5) Level 4, (semipro, lower high class) Z-1, Z-1p, MZ-S (900 Euro), (Nikon F100, Dynax 7, EOS 3) Level 5, (pro) Pentax none (Nikon F5, Dynax 9, EOS 1) Now look at the features of the *ist and in which level the fit in the Pentax body line (in brackets other manufactures) Build quatility (metal mount): 2 (2) Mount compatiblity to manual lenses 1 (Nikon 4, others none) Viewfinder 2 (2) Shutter time, sync speed 3 (2-3) FPS 3-4 (2-3) Auto picture mode 2 (picture mode 2) AF system (cross sensor, on screen display) 4 (2-3) AF modes (Single, continous) 4 (2-3) Grip (vertical release) 4 (3) DOF 3 (3) MLU 2-3, (Nikon 5, 3) Flash system 2 (2-3) Special Funktions (film leader out, PF) 3 If you see the features, you see that only the mount compatibilty is entry level, all others are mid class and some are on the level of the MZ-S. IF you are saying the *ist is entry level, then your are taking only the lens mount in account. Will a beginner will use MLU or DOF or exposer bracketing? The *ist is a very good featured camera for the money, better than the compititors in that price range. We have to face it, Pentax do not support K-mount in the midclass anymore. Nobody else does it. And that is also right for the *istD, which is level 3+ (compare it to D100 (from F80), D60 (from EOS30) , Sigma D9 ), that is also a midclass camera to semi pro camera. There are no entry level or low midclass cameras as D-SLR cameras.
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
I'm not sure which market you mean isn't very big today. What I am sure of is that there are more potential 35mm SLR buyers in the world today who have not used Pentax, than who have, and more are being born all the time. I also feel certain that there are more camera buyers who have not owned or used ANY brand of 35mm SLR than who have. On both counts the market potential is considerable, and Pentax wants a piece of it. They are going after the kind of buyer who's been opting for Canon. Don't get me wrong, I doubt that many, if any Canon owners will defect to Pentax because of the *ist, but some non-owners of any brand should find the new Pentaxes equal to the competition. regards, Anthony Farr - Original Message - From: "Nick Zentena" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > On June 19, 2003 09:29 am, Anthony Farr wrote: > > > > > Pentax don't plan to sell most *ists to present Pentax owners, but to > > people who've never before owned a 35mm SLR. That's what makes it 'entry > > level'. If you or I or anyone else on this list bought an *ist, that would > > not be an 'entry' purchase. We don't count in the *ist's reasons to exist, > > and that's why it doesn't appeal to so many of us. > > That's not a very big market today. The *ist has some nice features in a > relatively small package. The only thing I've heard about it that's > questionable is the build quality. If it's more robust then some of the > suggestions here I'll consider it. > > Nick > >
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
On June 19, 2003 11:03 am, Rob Studdert wrote: > On 19 Jun 2003 at 10:55, Nick Zentena wrote: > > How does that make sense? Nothing is stopping you from using the > > aperture ring other then losing in camera metering. > > Talk about feature laden. > Haven't you heard. Feature rich equals entry level. Arguing that a person needs to use a handheld meter makes a camera aimed at entry level makes no sense to me. Nick
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
On 19 Jun 2003 at 10:55, Nick Zentena wrote: > How does that make sense? Nothing is stopping you from using the aperture ring > other then losing in camera metering. Talk about feature laden. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
After that I am officially discontinuing my participation in this (and if I'm lucky enough to remember) and all future *ist market position threads. Excuse me while I go rip the meter out of my MX and paint it black so I can finally start taking some professional photos (or do we call them slides/negatives now? I'm so confused) -Matt On Thursday, June 19, 2003, at 10:55 AM, Nick Zentena wrote: On June 19, 2003 10:51 am, Matt Bevers wrote: Exactly - that's why I said the user interface supports it's entry level status. The single dial doesn't work for people who don't use autoexposure. How does that make sense? Nothing is stopping you from using the aperture ring other then losing in camera metering. Camera metering is entry level. The camera is aimed at people who use a handheld meter. Nick
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
i use my digital camera all the time with only one dial for controlling both aperture and shutter speed. i either shoot fully programmed mode or aperture priority mode. with the dial, i can vary the combination in favor of higher shutter speed or higher aperture while maintaining constant exposure when in program mode. in aperture mode, i adjust the aperture for the depth of field i want while staying within the slowest shutter speed limits of my camera. when i disagree with the camera, i use exposure compensation by pressing a button and rotating the same dial. i've had 3 cameras that work this way and i see very little need for two controls because i can't remember ever using manual mode on any of my digitals or my ZX-5n. one control is almost all i ever change. i am fairly sure i have also done the same on my Super Program, leave it in Aperture mode or program mode with exposure compensation. my MX forces me to use both controls, but then i have no choice. Herb - Original Message - From: "Rob Studdert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:41 Subject: Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level > On 19 Jun 2003 at 17:27, Alexandru-Cristian Sarbu wrote: > > > Nope, it's only one dial. *istD has 2, instead. > > But this is not an issue if you don't use manual mode :) Except that I > > really don't like the *ist wheel (and I'm talking about construction; *istD > > should be much better). > > So when all the BS is distilled down the *ist model designation simply means a > camera without conventional aperture control.
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
On June 19, 2003 09:29 am, Anthony Farr wrote: > > Pentax don't plan to sell most *ists to present Pentax owners, but to > people who've never before owned a 35mm SLR. That's what makes it 'entry > level'. If you or I or anyone else on this list bought an *ist, that would > not be an 'entry' purchase. We don't count in the *ist's reasons to exist, > and that's why it doesn't appeal to so many of us. That's not a very big market today. The *ist has some nice features in a relatively small package. The only thing I've heard about it that's questionable is the build quality. If it's more robust then some of the suggestions here I'll consider it. Nick
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
On June 19, 2003 10:51 am, Matt Bevers wrote: > Exactly - that's why I said the user interface supports it's entry > level status. The single dial doesn't work for people who don't use > autoexposure. How does that make sense? Nothing is stopping you from using the aperture ring other then losing in camera metering. Camera metering is entry level. The camera is aimed at people who use a handheld meter. Nick
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
On Thursday, June 19, 2003, at 11:27 AM, Alexandru-Cristian Sarbu wrote: But this is not an issue if you don't use manual mode :) Or if you don't use exposure compensation in Av or Tv
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
Exactly - that's why I said the user interface supports it's entry level status. The single dial doesn't work for people who don't use autoexposure. On Thursday, June 19, 2003, at 09:36 AM, Anthony Farr wrote: It'll be a rare event for most *ists to be moved off an autoexposure mode in favour of manual exposure. We here are representatives of a rare breed of photographer who like to take control back from the camera. That single dial might get wound off its bearings in the hands of one of us, but I have a strong feeling that on most *ists it will be the least used part of the interface. regards, Anthony Farr - Original Message - From: "Matt Bevers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (previous message snipped) Don't forget the user interface - this is one clear strike against the *ist, having only one dial to control shutter, aperture and exposure compensation. Now, I haven't used a single dial camera for the requisite 6 months, but I have used my brother's Rebel 2000 a fair amount, and the single dial drove me nuts. Without being able to use the aperture ring, that single dial is all you have on the *ist. -Matt
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
On 19 Jun 2003 at 17:27, Alexandru-Cristian Sarbu wrote: > Nope, it's only one dial. *istD has 2, instead. > But this is not an issue if you don't use manual mode :) Except that I > really don't like the *ist wheel (and I'm talking about construction; *istD > should be much better). So when all the BS is distilled down the *ist model designation simply means a camera without conventional aperture control. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
Nope, it's only one dial. *istD has 2, instead. But this is not an issue if you don't use manual mode :) Except that I really don't like the *ist wheel (and I'm talking about construction; *istD should be much better). - Original Message - From: "alexanderkrohe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 4:14 PM Subject: Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level > Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 07:42:39 -0400 > From: Matt Bevers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Don't forget the user interface - this is one clear > strike against the > > *ist, having only one dial to control shutter, > aperture > > > I have read this a couple of time on this list, but it > is is wrong. The *ist has separate dials for shutter > and aperture (unlike the MZ/ZX7) > > Alexander > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > >
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
Hi alexanderkrohe, on 19 Jun 03 you wrote in pentax.list: >> *ist, having only one dial to control shutter, >aperture >> >I have read this a couple of time on this list, but it >is is wrong. The *ist has separate dials for shutter >and aperture (unlike the MZ/ZX7) No, the *ist has only one dial. The *istD has two. Cheers, Heiko
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 07:42:39 -0400 From: Matt Bevers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Don't forget the user interface - this is one clear strike against the > *ist, having only one dial to control shutter, aperture > I have read this a couple of time on this list, but it is is wrong. The *ist has separate dials for shutter and aperture (unlike the MZ/ZX7) Alexander __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
Hi Anthony, on 19 Jun 03 you wrote in pentax.list: >It'll be a rare event for most *ists to be moved off an autoexposure mode in >favour of manual exposure. We here are representatives of a rare breed of >photographer who like to take control back from the camera. That single >dial might get wound off its bearings in the hands of one of us, but I have >a strong feeling that on most *ists it will be the least used part of the >interface. FullACK! Cheers, Heiko
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
Entry level doesn't necessarily mean cheapest. That presumes that a first time 35mm slr buyer always 'enters' the category by acquiring the cheapest camera. That may be true of students and other people of limited means, but in reality many first time buyers are free to spend as much as they see fit. Being first -timers also means they are unencumbered by such concepts as compatability with preceding products. First time buyers are less aware of the wider implications of choosing features over quality, and are most often lured by the bells and whistles of Pentax's feature-laden competitors, only to find out later that, although their new camera has more features than can be used in a lifetime of photography, it has the build quality of a Diana (the camera not the late princess). Pentax could have mounted an advertising campaign to sell the idea that your purchasing dollar goes towards quality over gimmickry, but obviously realised that their advertising prowess is non-existant. So they bit the bullet and have released a Canon clone that manages to out-specify its nearest priced rivals. Pentax don't plan to sell most *ists to present Pentax owners, but to people who've never before owned a 35mm SLR. That's what makes it 'entry level'. If you or I or anyone else on this list bought an *ist, that would not be an 'entry' purchase. We don't count in the *ist's reasons to exist, and that's why it doesn't appeal to so many of us. regards, Anthony Farr - Original Message - From: "Rüdiger Neumann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Some people on the list always state, that the *ist/*istD is a entry level > camera because the Pentax marketing has said that. They also said the MZ-S > it a pro camera. So let us use our own heads and look at the Pentax line up > and also at other companies where the *ist fit in. > > There are five levels of cameras. > > Level 1, (beginner, entry level) > Z-10, Z-70, MZ-M, MZ-50, MZ-30, MZ-60 (200 Euro) (Nikon F55, EOS300, Dynax > 3) > > Level 2, (amateur, low midclass) > Z-50p, MZ-7, MZ-6 (300 Euro) (Nikon F75, EOS 300v, Dynax 4) > > Level 3, (advanced amateur, upper midclass) > Z-20, MZ-5, MZ-5n, MZ-3 (400 Euro) (Nikon F80, EOS 30, Dynax 5) > > Level 4, (semipro, lower high class) > Z-1, Z-1p, MZ-S (900 Euro), (Nikon F100, Dynax 7, EOS 3) > > Level 5, (pro) > Pentax none (Nikon F5, Dynax 9, EOS 1) > > Now look at the features of the *ist and in which level the fit in the > Pentax body line (in brackets other manufactures) > > Build quatility (metal mount): 2 (2) > Mount compatiblity to manual lenses 1 (Nikon 4, others none) > Viewfinder 2 (2) > Shutter time, sync speed 3 (2-3) > FPS 3-4 (2-3) > Auto picture mode 2 (picture mode 2) > AF system (cross sensor, on screen display) 4 (2-3) > AF modes (Single, continous) 4 (2-3) > Grip (vertical release) 4 (3) > DOF 3 (3) > MLU 2-3, (Nikon 5, 3) > Flash system 2 (2-3) > Special Funktions (film leader out, PF) 3 > > If you see the features, you see that only the mount compatibilty is entry > level, all others are mid class and some are on the level of the MZ-S. IF > you are saying the *ist is entry level, then your are taking only the lens > mount in account. Will a beginner will use MLU or DOF or exposer bracketing? > The *ist is a very good featured camera for the money, better than the > compititors in that price range. > We have to face it, Pentax do not support K-mount in the midclass anymore. > Nobody else does it. And that is also right for the *istD, which is level > 3+ (compare it to D100 (from F80), D60 (from EOS30) , Sigma D9 ), that is > also a midclass camera to semi pro camera. There are no entry level or low > midclass cameras as D-SLR cameras. > >
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
It'll be a rare event for most *ists to be moved off an autoexposure mode in favour of manual exposure. We here are representatives of a rare breed of photographer who like to take control back from the camera. That single dial might get wound off its bearings in the hands of one of us, but I have a strong feeling that on most *ists it will be the least used part of the interface. regards, Anthony Farr - Original Message - From: "Matt Bevers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (previous message snipped) > > Don't forget the user interface - this is one clear strike against the > *ist, having only one dial to control shutter, aperture and exposure > compensation. Now, I haven't used a single dial camera for the > requisite 6 months, but I have used my brother's Rebel 2000 a fair > amount, and the single dial drove me nuts. Without being able to use > the aperture ring, that single dial is all you have on the *ist. > > -Matt > >
Re: The Myth of the *ist is entry level
Build quatility (metal mount): 2 (2) Mount compatiblity to manual lenses 1 (Nikon 4, others none) Viewfinder 2 (2) Shutter time, sync speed 3 (2-3) FPS 3-4 (2-3) Auto picture mode 2 (picture mode 2) AF system (cross sensor, on screen display) 4 (2-3) AF modes (Single, continous) 4 (2-3) Grip (vertical release) 4 (3) DOF 3 (3) MLU 2-3, (Nikon 5, 3) Flash system 2 (2-3) Special Funktions (film leader out, PF) 3 Don't forget the user interface - this is one clear strike against the *ist, having only one dial to control shutter, aperture and exposure compensation. Now, I haven't used a single dial camera for the requisite 6 months, but I have used my brother's Rebel 2000 a fair amount, and the single dial drove me nuts. Without being able to use the aperture ring, that single dial is all you have on the *ist. -Matt
